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      NESV/Fenway Sports Group: Owners of LFC

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      7-King Kenny-7
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      Re: NESV/Fenway Sports Group: Owners of LFC
      Reply #29175: Sep 07, 2021 12:40:06 pm
      You've said that before as well!
      You can't win this one Si because the basis of your defence is shot.

      Our owners are speculators here for the short term to milk the asset.

      It’s not a competition is it?

      The owners aren’t that short term, they’ve been here 10/11 years now. They’ve had plenty opportunity now to sell the club for a gigantic profit and haven’t done so. Whether we like it or not, they are here to stay and won’t be going anywhere anytime soon.
      Shabs
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      Re: NESV/Fenway Sports Group: Owners of LFC
      Reply #29176: Sep 07, 2021 01:34:53 pm
      It’s not a competition is it?

      The owners aren’t that short term, they’ve been here 10/11 years now. They’ve had plenty opportunity now to sell the club for a gigantic profit and haven’t done so. Whether we like it or not, they are here to stay and won’t be going anywhere anytime soon.

      You sure about that..?  They won’t be here for another decade, probably sell
      Us off within that time frame if not sooner….
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      Re: NESV/Fenway Sports Group: Owners of LFC
      Reply #29177: Sep 07, 2021 02:15:16 pm
      You sure about that..?  They won’t be here for another decade, probably sell
      Us off within that time frame if not sooner….

      You're asking me if I'm sure? My view that they won't be going anywhere soon is based on the fact they've been here 10/11 years and have rejected offers for the club of over £1bn, which is a gigantic profit for them.

      What's your view based on? Because if you think they are, 1. selling for anything less than that and 2. anyone would pay £2-3bn for the club then you could be in for a shock.
      stuey
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      Re: NESV/Fenway Sports Group: Owners of LFC
      Reply #29178: Sep 07, 2021 03:36:08 pm
      It’s not a competition is it?

      The owners aren’t that short term, they’ve been here 10/11 years now. They’ve had plenty opportunity now to sell the club for a gigantic profit and haven’t done so. Whether we like it or not, they are here to stay and won’t be going anywhere anytime soon.

      11 years of realistically none-investment does not constitute a “long term” investment- the time scale might imply but factually the word “invest” is badly misplaced.
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      Re: NESV/Fenway Sports Group: Owners of LFC
      Reply #29179: Sep 07, 2021 04:05:07 pm
      11 years of realistically none-investment does not constitute a “long term” investment- the time scale might imply but factually the word “invest” is badly misplaced.

      Didn't mention long term investment did I? I said about the duration of their ownership.

      To them the club is a business, if they are able to run their business without putting any of their own money in, then to them they are making a success of it. Same as any business, I know myself that if I don't have to put any of my own money in then I'm doing something right.

      They have never understood the values of the club, they will never understand the values of the club but for them, their business is running well and increasing in value.

      Ultimately, they don't give a toss about the fans and the team winning trophies, to them that is probably just an additional bonus so long as the other objectives are being met.

      Are we in the red financially? No
      Is the club in with as much chance of winning silverware as anyone else? Yes
      Are there improvements to the stadium and training ground etc? Yes

      I don't think they are many people's preferred choice of ownership given the complete lack of understanding and bond they have with the club but it is what it is. After the shambles of H&G, just be a bit appreciative that regardless of whether its from their own pocket or not, the club is moving forward, developing and secure financially.  I don't get why you still have such an issue with this, it's not going to change anytime soon so why do you focus so much of your energy on it? You've been getting so stressed about this for years and it never changes. You have a strong dislike for the owners, we get it, you've made yourself perfectly clear mate.
      « Last Edit: Sep 07, 2021 04:12:48 pm by 7-King Kenny-7 »
      stuey
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      Re: NESV/Fenway Sports Group: Owners of LFC
      Reply #29180: Sep 07, 2021 04:38:19 pm
      Didn't mention long term investment did I? I said about the duration of their ownership.

      To them the club is a business, if they are able to run their business without putting any of their own money in, then to them they are making a success of it. Same as any business, I know myself that if I don't have to put any of my own money in then I'm doing something right.

      They have never understood the values of the club, they will never understand the values of the club but for them, their business is running well and increasing in value.

      Ultimately, they don't give a toss about the fans and the team winning trophies, to them that is probably just an additional bonus so long as the other objectives are being met.

      Are we in the red financially? No
      Is the club in with as much chance of winning silverware as anyone else? Yes
      Are there improvements to the stadium and training ground etc? Yes

      I don't think they are many people's preferred choice of ownership given the complete lack of understanding and bond they have with the club but it is what it is. After the shambles of H&G, just be a bit appreciative that regardless of whether its from their own pocket or not, the club is moving forward, developing and secure financially.  I don't get why you still have such an issue with this, it's not going to change anytime soon so why do you focus so much of your energy on it? You've been getting so stressed about this for years and it never changes. You have a strong dislike for the owners, we get it, you've made yourself perfectly clear mate.

      I do not “dislike” the owners.
      Once again I was as made up as any supporter of this club when the other fraudulent bas**rds were fu**ed off

      After some time elapsed and managers came and went the FSG modus operandi was scrutinised.

      As you point out they are businessmen/entrepreneurs but prior to Klopp this fact was not so well accepted.
      There was talk of demonstrations by some who were not happy with the manner in which FSG conducted their business.

      Jürgen Klopp turned it all around, won us stuff and the brand became a leader, fairy muff.
      Klopp achieved not FSG.
      But consider this when Klopp gets off we are back to square one.
      More sobering is the situation when the entrepreneurs  sell up and take what they consider they're entitled to and the pay out for the shareholders - that's business.
      « Last Edit: Sep 07, 2021 04:53:24 pm by stuey »
      ruthcity
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      Re: NESV/Fenway Sports Group: Owners of LFC
      Reply #29181: Sep 07, 2021 05:21:53 pm
      They invest zero, they are speculators/market players and cream profits eventually.

      These are called corporate raiders on Wall Street. H&G are closer to your description. To help you in understanding how this is done, the raiders put in very little equity and load up the target with debt used to acquire the entity. Yes you invest close to zero. Following which they rip the assets apart to sell and drain out any cash available. What’s left is the entity servicing a pile of debt which wasn’t theirs to begin with.

      What’s the point of even telling you all these. You don’t even understand and keep insisting they’re not spending their own money despite updates to the champions wall. And you make up stuff that we are listed on the stock market.
      ruthcity
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      Re: NESV/Fenway Sports Group: Owners of LFC
      Reply #29182: Sep 07, 2021 05:26:30 pm
      Cash/equity injection comes at a huge price though.

      People think that equity injection is easy, but it's not. It means higher costs to the club.

      Don’t go down that cost of equity and weighted average… never mind. Very few would understand CF. And I don’t mean centre forward.
      stuey
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      Re: NESV/Fenway Sports Group: Owners of LFC
      Reply #29183: Sep 07, 2021 05:30:26 pm
      These are called corporate raiders on Wall Street. H&G are closer to your description. To help you in understanding how this is done, the raiders put in very little equity and load up the target with debt used to acquire the entity. Yes you invest close to zero. Following which they rip the assets apart to sell and drain out any cash available. What’s left is the entity servicing a pile of debt which wasn’t theirs to begin with.

      What’s the point of even telling you all these. You don’t even understand and keep insisting they’re not spending their own money despite updates to the champions wall. And you make up stuff that we are listed on the stock market.

      Your first statement makes a nonsense of your comment, H&G were fraudulent and found to be so in a court of law.
      FSG can and will do what is described.
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      Re: NESV/Fenway Sports Group: Owners of LFC
      Reply #29184: Sep 07, 2021 05:33:14 pm
      At this point, I couldn't care less who the owners are as long as the football club is being run correctly and funds are made available when they are needed/requested by the manager. I don't think owners should be doing things like the Super League, furloughs, trademarking city names, etc... I'm pretty sure every single one of us can be on the page there (and if not then you really are just an FSG fan-girl). So for that, I don't have anything nice to say about this particular group of yanks.  As far as how transfers are funded, it's not like it's a secret that we are a sell to buy club and that's primarily how we work. It is what it is. I don't think that's going to change. Klopp seems to go along with that and doesn't appear (publicly) to disagree with that notion. He talks about how the owners back him when he asks although there's really not much way for us to really know if that is always 100% true. Personally, I'd like to see us speculate to accumulate from time to time but that's not our model so I doubt it's going to happen. I'm glad that the players that need renewing are getting new contracts, it's important to keep your core team intact as long as they are viable, I don't like the way they seem to wait to announce those renewals when they know fans are frustrated with other things, certainly feels like the club is taking the piss out of us sometimes in that respect.

      Overall, there's plenty of things to placate most folks, but personally I just don't like FSG, and I defended them early on in the Kenny/Brendan era so it's not like I'm some FSG-out knuckle-head. I just don't like how they operate and I don't like how they seem to be inflexible from this moneyball approach that will likely only work with someone like Klopp at the helm. But, I suppose we could do a lot worse...although that doesn't mean that we can't dream about doing a lot better. I will say this, anyone that spends the better part of their days defending FSG from all of us critical of them needs to re-evaluate what they really love about this club because it's just weird to constantly find ways to absolve them of some of the stupid sh*t they've done.
      ruthcity
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      Re: NESV/Fenway Sports Group: Owners of LFC
      Reply #29185: Sep 07, 2021 05:33:35 pm
      Our owners are speculators here for the short term to milk the asset.

      But they put us in a very good place, although that fell way short of your expectations.
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      Re: NESV/Fenway Sports Group: Owners of LFC
      Reply #29186: Sep 07, 2021 05:34:00 pm
      "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in"

      More sobering is the situation when the entrepreneurs  sell up and take what they consider they're entitled to and the pay out for the shareholders - that's business.

      I've seen you mention this a number of times and just wanted to know what you actually mean by this? And if you could explain without rambling that would be great mate.

      Say the club is valued at £3B at the time of any sale, you do realise that the buyer is giving FSG that money to take on the assets of LFC and not £3B will suddenly be taken from the club into FSG'S pockets?

      Anyone who would spend that money would be doing so to continue to grow the club and therefore I don't see what the issue is?

      No owner debt to be paid back and the shareholders will get their share of the sale money.

      stuey
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      Re: NESV/Fenway Sports Group: Owners of LFC
      Reply #29187: Sep 07, 2021 05:40:18 pm
      "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in"

      I've seen you mention this a number of times and just wanted to know what you actually mean by this? And if you could explain without rambling that would be great mate.

      Say the club is valued at £3B at the time of any sale, you do realise that the buyer is giving FSG that money to take on the assets of LFC and not £3B will suddenly be taken from the club into FSG'S pockets?

      Anyone who would spend that money would be doing so to continue to grow the club and therefore I don't see what the issue is?

      No owner debt to be paid back and the shareholders will get their share of the sale money.



      You tell me how much FSG and the shareholders claim when they sell up!
      srslfc
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      Re: NESV/Fenway Sports Group: Owners of LFC
      Reply #29188: Sep 07, 2021 05:43:06 pm
      You tell me how much FSG and the shareholders claim when they sell up!

      They claim whatever the buyer agrees to pay based on its value. Pretty sure I made that clear in the list above??

      It's what you actually think that means is my real question as it appears you think £3B would be withdrawn from the club accounts.
      « Last Edit: Sep 07, 2021 05:51:56 pm by srslfc »
      ruthcity
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      Re: NESV/Fenway Sports Group: Owners of LFC
      Reply #29189: Sep 07, 2021 05:48:25 pm
      Say the club is valued at £3B at the time of any sale, you do realise that the buyer is giving FSG that money to take on the assets of LFC and not £3B will suddenly be taken from the club into FSG'S pockets?

      Anyone who would spend that money would be doing so to continue to grow the club and therefore I don't see what the issue is?

      That they are making too much money through my beloved community club. And I am not happy with that?

      And if they have so much money, give us some to replace Divock with Kylian and Mini with Kane. Explained!
      Lallana in Pyjamas
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      Re: NESV/Fenway Sports Group: Owners of LFC
      Reply #29190: Sep 07, 2021 05:50:26 pm
      I do not “dislike” the owners.
      Once again I was as made up as any supporter of this club when the other fraudulent bas**rds were fu**ed off

      After some time elapsed and managers came and went the FSG modus operandi was scrutinised.

      As you point out they are businessmen/entrepreneurs but prior to Klopp this fact was not so well accepted.
      There was talk of demonstrations by some who were not happy with the manner in which FSG conducted their business.

      Jürgen Klopp turned it all around, won us stuff and the brand became a leader, fairy muff.
      Klopp achieved not FSG.
      But consider this when Klopp gets off we are back to square one.
      More sobering is the situation when the entrepreneurs  sell up and take what they consider they're entitled to and the pay out for the shareholders - that's business.


      If the club is bought the new owners will give them the money from the purchase 🤷‍♂️
      stuey
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      Re: NESV/Fenway Sports Group: Owners of LFC
      Reply #29191: Sep 07, 2021 06:02:18 pm
      They claim whatever the buyer agrees to pay based on its value. Pretty sure I made that clear in the list above??

      It's what you actually think that means is my real question as it appears you actually think £3B would be withdrawn from the club accounts.

      Do leave it out Si, I can be as cutting and insulting with some of the naive sh*t you put up but for the sake of discussion let it ride.
      How the f**k could they claim an estimate, a hypothetical figure for the stock market jugglers??
      They will take what they think they and the shareholders deserve, they will have little regard for the club or the fans as previously pointed out by 7KK.
      srslfc
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      Re: NESV/Fenway Sports Group: Owners of LFC
      Reply #29192: Sep 07, 2021 06:06:53 pm
      Do leave it out Si, I can be as cutting and insulting with some of the naive sh*t you put up but for the sake of discussion let it ride.
      How the f**k could they claim an estimate, a hypothetical figure for the stock market jugglers??
      They will take what they think they and the shareholders deserve, they will have little regard for the club or the fans as previously pointed out by 7KK.

      Sorry if I've annoyed you but I honestly don't think you understand what actually happens when a business is sold.

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      Re: NESV/Fenway Sports Group: Owners of LFC
      Reply #29193: Sep 07, 2021 06:20:48 pm
      Do leave it out Si, I can be as cutting and insulting with some of the naive sh*t you put up but for the sake of discussion let it ride.
      How the f**k could they claim an estimate, a hypothetical figure for the stock market jugglers??
      They will take what they think they and the shareholders deserve, they will have little regard for the club or the fans as previously pointed out by 7KK.

      Why do you keep going on about stock market and shareholders when FSG and indeed Liverpool is not a public company on the stock market
      ruthcity
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      Re: NESV/Fenway Sports Group: Owners of LFC
      Reply #29194: Sep 07, 2021 06:30:36 pm
      Why do you keep going on about stock market and shareholders when FSG and indeed Liverpool is not a public company on the stock market

      We’re 4% up in pre-market opening today. Rumours of a takeover by Chinese businessmen who own one of the largest fin tech companies in China. Stock analysts are saying more commercial sponsorships  will be lined up from the Far East which will be beneficial to earnings. However our wage bill is quite high and needs some culling. If we can control our wage bill, the upside to our stock price would be over 20% from current share price levels.
      Gill95
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      Re: NESV/Fenway Sports Group: Owners of LFC
      Reply #29195: Sep 07, 2021 06:46:02 pm
      We’re 4% up in pre-market opening today. Rumours of a takeover by Chinese businessmen who own one of the largest fin tech companies in China. Stock analysts are saying more commercial sponsorships  will be lined up from the Far East which will be beneficial to earnings. However our wage bill is quite high and needs some culling. If we can control our wage bill, the upside to our stock price would be over 20% from current share price levels.

       :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

      I'll add to it. Technicals are already looking good, just need another catalyst for us to go sky high. Then the 'promoters' will actually sell up, make hefty profit.
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      Re: NESV/Fenway Sports Group: Owners of LFC
      Reply #29196: Sep 07, 2021 09:56:42 pm
      At this point, I couldn't care less who the owners are as long as the football club is being run correctly and funds are made available when they are needed/requested by the manager. I don't think owners should be doing things like the Super League, furloughs, trademarking city names, etc... I'm pretty sure every single one of us can be on the page there (and if not then you really are just an FSG fan-girl). So for that, I don't have anything nice to say about this particular group of yanks.  As far as how transfers are funded, it's not like it's a secret that we are a sell to buy club and that's primarily how we work. It is what it is. I don't think that's going to change. Klopp seems to go along with that and doesn't appear (publicly) to disagree with that notion. He talks about how the owners back him when he asks although there's really not much way for us to really know if that is always 100% true. Personally, I'd like to see us speculate to accumulate from time to time but that's not our model so I doubt it's going to happen. I'm glad that the players that need renewing are getting new contracts, it's important to keep your core team intact as long as they are viable, I don't like the way they seem to wait to announce those renewals when they know fans are frustrated with other things, certainly feels like the club is taking the piss out of us sometimes in that respect.

      Overall, there's plenty of things to placate most folks, but personally I just don't like FSG, and I defended them early on in the Kenny/Brendan era so it's not like I'm some FSG-out knuckle-head. I just don't like how they operate and I don't like how they seem to be inflexible from this moneyball approach that will likely only work with someone like Klopp at the helm. But, I suppose we could do a lot worse...although that doesn't mean that we can't dream about doing a lot better. I will say this, anyone that spends the better part of their days defending FSG from all of us critical of them needs to re-evaluate what they really love about this club because it's just weird to constantly find ways to absolve them of some of the stupid sh*t they've done.

      Good post. I feel more or less the same way. I'm mindful of the thoroughly sh*t times we've been through under previous owners -- the lack of investment and the lack of foresight to move with the times that held us back for so long under Moores; the financial calamity and civil war that we endured under H&G -- and this should serve both as a reminder of how far we've come but also as a warning to treat corporate types with a healthy degree of skepticism.

      FSG took advantage of a crisis and did not come to our aid out of love for the club. Their interests do not align perfectly with the fans' and sometimes diverge with disastrous consequences, as should be clear from the ESL fiasco and other episodes of madness. As supporters it's our job to hold them to account and to a higher standard than they might otherwise get away with, which I find to be a more natural disposition towards owners of a football club than the ready embrace of methods which ultimately are aimed at generating revenue and an increase in FSG's net asset value.

      This doesn't mean we have to be churlish about giving FSG credit where it's due -- for appointing the manager who transformed our fortunes, selecting sensible people to do solid jobs in coaching, technical roles and recruitment, for following through with the stadium expansion, new training centre etc. Financially we are stable and by and large they have done a fairly good job.

      But good can always be better and that's the attitude you have to adopt in order to remain at the top consistently. The owners adopt a relatively cautious approach to transfer spending which I think was a factor in our dramatic collapse last season and would be more of a problem if we didn't have such a great manager. Very few on this forum have ventured to suggest that another manager under the same set up would have achieved a similar level of success. You might say it doesn't matter as Jürgen is here for the foreseeable -- fair enough -- but whilst he's here I hope we go the extra mile to make the most of it.
      stuey
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      Re: NESV/Fenway Sports Group: Owners of LFC
      Reply #29197: Sep 07, 2021 10:14:02 pm
      Sorry if I've annoyed you but I honestly don't think you understand what actually happens when a business is sold.



      I fully understand if they sold out tomorrow FSG and the shareholders would make a huge profit on their £360m investment.
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      Re: NESV/Fenway Sports Group: Owners of LFC
      Reply #29198: Sep 07, 2021 11:14:30 pm
      Don’t go down that cost of equity and weighted average… never mind. Very few would understand CF. And I don’t mean centre forward.

      Nah, not going down there even though they taught us in school that cost of equity greater than cost of debt. Just from my personal experience, by constantly injecting equity as an owner you are putting costs towards the club and putting more risks as an owner, that's why someone like Abramovich asks so much in return. The club is better off with intercompany loans with 0% or very very low interest rates.
      bmck
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      Re: NESV/Fenway Sports Group: Owners of LFC
      Reply #29199: Sep 07, 2021 11:26:01 pm
      I haven't really posted in this thread much over the years, as FSG have been doing OK, managing their investment prudently [make no mistake, that's what it is to them, and when the time is right, they'll sell it for a handsome profit], and allowing one of the best managers in the world [maybe *the* best] to do his job - but a few things have pissed me off recently:

      - the Super League - of course they weren't the only owners involved - but that doesn't make it OK - they've lost trust, respect and credit as a result, and combined with the recent lack of investment, now just seem out of touch, hiding gutless and cashless behind Jürgen's skirts

      - Jürgen has *no money to spend* on squad improvement this summer - NONE - not true? well, if it's not true, then you believe that an excellent manager challenging on multiple fronts [PL, CL, etc] against other teams that have strengthened simply *chooses* not to freshen up his squad.  So believe what you will there.  And Konate coming in was balanced financially by a fair number of players leaving - I think more money came in from outgoing players that was spent on incoming players

      - we've lost a regular first XI player and not added a first XI player - and that's even though many of our first XI players have been first XI players for years now, and the physical effort is starting to take its toll, injuries are cropping up more, some players don't look quiet as sharp as they did - oh, and a particular bugbear, Thiago a replacement for Gini a year early - please ...

      - all this contract publicity, pissing down our backs and telling us it's raining, making it sound like something amazing is happening - rather than doing what every other major club does without much fanfare - just to distract from the lack of transfers - and it's worked to some extent, as some people are repeating the line like its some kind of miraculous event

      Have said it before, have no axe to grind with FSG - they're just money men, like any other money men - but they don't understand the club or care about it the way lifelong fans do - I look at whether Jürgen is being given the tools to do his job - and Jürgen has proven he doesn't need ridiculous sums - just enough to make clinical buys - but he's been left hanging this summer.
      Don't think it's rocket science to say that if you don't invest in something, it won't continue to grow and prosper. And, right now, FSG are coming up well short.

      I really hope we can challenge this season. Though I don't see us as favorites over the long haul. Hope am wrong though, and Jürgen and the lads can recreate some of the magic of 19/20. Would be absolutely amazing to do it again, but this time with the fans in there beside them :)

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