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      NESV/Fenway Sports Group: Owners of LFC

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      Lallana in Pyjamas
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      Re: NESV/Fenway Sports Group: Owners of LFC
      Reply #28350: Jun 10, 2021 06:22:56 pm
      Because they're still dickheads - their involvement in the ESL proves that!!

      Not many owners that aren’t dickheads these days unfortunatly

      Let’s hope it’s a learning curve for them
      -LFC-
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      Re: NESV/Fenway Sports Group: Owners of LFC
      Reply #28351: Jun 10, 2021 06:50:32 pm
      So why did it take 20 plus years for our club to do it then ?

      Klopp has spent over £500mil - he isn’t working on some shoestring budget

      VVD - £80mil
      Alisson - £60mil
      Fabinho -£50mil
      Keita -£50mil
      Mane -£30mil
      Salah -£40 mil
      Gini -£25mil
      Ox -£35mil
      Kounte -£35mil
      Jota -£45mil
      Thiago -£25mil


      £550mil since he has taken over the club - he isn’t bargain basement hunting. He has been able to buy some quality players and those quality players are scouted etc by that huge technical team behind him.


      Klopp is outstanding , he has made errors at times but he knows exactly how he needs the team behind him to function - the single biggest factor for the success is not one person - it’s how all the people work together to provide the platform for the manager to do his job


      There are two main reasons it took so long to win the league.

      One is that our previous owners were a complete and utter disaster. Years and years of commercial mismanagement and neglect culminated in the club needing to be rescued from near bankruptcy and in that time the Munts pulled way ahead of us whilst other clubs came to the fore and established themselves as our competitors.

      Any half-decent owner that came in was bound to be an improvement due to the potential inherent in being the most successful football club in the country. Why should it be seen as commercial wizardry to take advantage of opportunities that were there all along?

      The second and most important reason is the manager.  It doesn’t matter how many fancy names people like give to the support staff and the organisation around the team — whether it is ‘management structures’, ‘technical analysts’, ‘senior management team’ — in order to affect an air of business savvy; all of this means absolutely nothing if the guy who has the overriding say in who we sign and how they are coached, managed and developed doesn’t know what he’s doing.
      Lallana in Pyjamas
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      Re: NESV/Fenway Sports Group: Owners of LFC
      Reply #28352: Jun 10, 2021 07:07:14 pm
      There are two main reasons it took so long to win the league.

      One is that our previous owners were a complete and utter disaster. Years and years of commercial mismanagement and neglect culminated in the club needing to be rescued from near bankruptcy and in that time the Munts pulled way ahead of us whilst other clubs came to the fore and established themselves as our competitors.

      Any half-decent owner that came in was bound to be an improvement due to the potential inherent in being the most successful football club in the country. Why should it be seen as commercial wizardry to take advantage of opportunities that were there all along?

      The second and most important reason is the manager.  It doesn’t matter how many fancy names people like give to the support staff and the organisation around the team — whether it is ‘management structures’, ‘technical analysts’, ‘senior management team’ — in order to affect an air of business savvy; all of this means absolutely nothing if the guy who has the overriding say in who we sign and how they are coached, managed and developed doesn’t know what he’s doing.


      I don’t think anyone has suggested it’s “commercial wizardry” but the owners have done everything they have stated


      The barren 20 plus years before them we had nothing but white noise and disappointments - we finally get owners in who get the right people in to finally get the club into picking up the right riches that are needed - so they deserve credit for doing that - and also doing it sensibly to ensure the club is solid.


      And in regards the manager - he can’t do it on his own , doesn’t matter how good a manager that person is, he will still need the platform given to him for him to help build on - Klopp isn’t all about the individual, he is about the team with every little cog being as equal and important as the next person. If the manager doesn’t have the right tools then he isn’t going to perform miracles.


      Hence why Klopp has been backed very well in the market to bring in the players he wants


      Overall the whole club package right now is providing the club both success and sustainability for the future. We aren’t rely on someone’s back pocket , we aren’t relying on bank loans - we rely on the club working together both on and off the field
      CT_LFC
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      Re: NESV/Fenway Sports Group: Owners of LFC
      Reply #28353: Jun 10, 2021 07:18:28 pm
      There are two main reasons it took so long to win the league.

      One is that our previous owners were a complete and utter disaster. Years and years of commercial mismanagement and neglect culminated in the club needing to be rescued from near bankruptcy and in that time the Munts pulled way ahead of us whilst other clubs came to the fore and established themselves as our competitors.

      Any half-decent owner that came in was bound to be an improvement due to the potential inherent in being the most successful football club in the country. Why should it be seen as commercial wizardry to take advantage of opportunities that were there all along?

      The second and most important reason is the manager.  It doesn’t matter how many fancy names people like give to the support staff and the organisation around the team — whether it is ‘management structures’, ‘technical analysts’, ‘senior management team’ — in order to affect an air of business savvy; all of this means absolutely nothing if the guy who has the overriding say in who we sign and how they are coached, managed and developed doesn’t know what he’s doing.

      It goes both ways, though. It doesn't matter how good a coach is, if he is not supported by ownership he isn't going to succeed.

      If instead of Van Dijk, Fabinho, Mane, Bobby and Salah Klopp had to work with Sakho, Leiva, Ojo, Solanke and Wilson, he's not winning anything here.

      And considering the only other investor who reportedly bid on Liverpool at the time of the sale was Peter Lim, who then went on to buy Valencia and has made a mess out of it, there weren't many "half-decent" people willing to buy the team.
      -LFC-
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      Re: NESV/Fenway Sports Group: Owners of LFC
      Reply #28354: Jun 10, 2021 08:06:12 pm

      I don’t think anyone has suggested it’s “commercial wizardry” but the owners have done everything they have stated


      The barren 20 plus years before them we had nothing but white noise and disappointments - we finally get owners in who get the right people in to finally get the club into picking up the right riches that are needed - so they deserve credit for doing that - and also doing it sensibly to ensure the club is solid.


      And in regards the manager - he can’t do it on his own , doesn’t matter how good a manager that person is, he will still need the platform given to him for him to help build on - Klopp isn’t all about the individual, he is about the team with every little cog being as equal and important as the next person. If the manager doesn’t have the right tools then he isn’t going to perform miracles.


      Hence why Klopp has been backed very well in the market to bring in the players he wants


      Overall the whole club package right now is providing the club both success and sustainability for the future. We aren’t rely on someone’s back pocket , we aren’t relying on bank loans - we rely on the club working together both on and off the field

      The manager has been backed by just about enough and not a great deal more than has been necessary to achieve success. This ‘backing’ consisted of essentially spending  nothing beyond what we brought in through player sales for three of his six seasons. Where we have spent money, the very fact that we’ve been able to make major signings  is in no small part down to the fact we’ve been successful on the pitch in the first place — Coutinho doesn’t go for £140m if he isn’t playing in such a way that Barce think they are singing the next Brazilian superstar. We don’t have the revenues to pay the wages or the promise of success to lure the best players if we aren’t getting to CL finals or challenging in the league.

      Often when it is said that Klopp should be grateful that he has been given the tools to do the job, the same people proceed to list players he has helped turn into some of the best players in the league — Robertson, Trent, Mo, Sadio, Bobby — as if they were already world class players to begin with. Similarly the fact that we spend more on wages than before or paid out big wage bonuses after winning the CL and league is because he has built a team that has been so successful. This is presented as further evidence of ‘backing’ when it is really a reflection of the manager being phenomenally good at his job.
      « Last Edit: Jun 10, 2021 08:16:04 pm by -LFC- »
      -LFC-
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      Re: NESV/Fenway Sports Group: Owners of LFC
      Reply #28355: Jun 10, 2021 08:15:22 pm
      It goes both ways, though. It doesn't matter how good a coach is, if he is not supported by ownership he isn't going to succeed.

      If instead of Van Dijk, Fabinho, Mane, Bobby and Salah Klopp had to work with Sakho, Leiva, Ojo, Solanke and Wilson, he's not winning anything here.

      And considering the only other investor who reportedly bid on Liverpool at the time of the sale was Peter Lim, who then went on to buy Valencia and has made a mess out of it, there weren't many "half-decent" people willing to buy the team.

      It does not go both ways in equal measure, though, and that is the point. Klopp has been successful  and would be successful without FSG. By contrast, it is much harder to think of many managers who would be able to achieve the same level of success under FSG.
      Lallana in Pyjamas
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      Re: NESV/Fenway Sports Group: Owners of LFC
      Reply #28356: Jun 10, 2021 08:19:16 pm
      The manager has been backed by just about enough and not a great deal more than has been necessary to achieve success. This ‘backing’ consisted of essentially spending  nothing beyond what we brought in through player sales for three of his six seasons. Where we have spent money, the very fact that we’ve been able to make major signings  is in no small part down the fact we’ve been successful on the pitch in the first place — Coutinho doesn’t go for £140m if he isn’t playing in such a way that Barce think they are singing the next Brazilian superstar. We don’t have the revenues to pay the wages or the promise of success to lure the best players if we aren’t getting to CL finals or challenging in the league.

      Often when it is said that Klopp should be grateful that he has been given the tools to do the job, the same people proceed to list players he has helped turn into some of the best players in the league — Robertson, Trent, Mo, Sadio, Bobby — as if they were already world class players to begin with. Similarly the fact that we spend more on wages than before or paid out big wage bonuses after winning the CL and league is because he has built a team that has been so successful. This is presented as further evidence of ‘backing’ when it is really a reflection of the manager being phenomenally good at his job.

      The manager has spent over £560 million since he arrived at the club - he doesnt scrimp and save for pennies , £560million on multiple players which have already been highlighted- does it matter where the money comes from , is VVD a better signing if the £80mil came from a different source ?

      It’s all part of the make up of how the team works - and it’s exactly how we worked in the 80’s when I grew up , the club sold players and others arrived to replace them , there was no big pot of golf to dip into , the club worked within their financial boundaries and used their outstanding scouting and coaching team to build winning teams - they were bought using an endless purse of money as if player a football simulator

      As for the wage bill - through out the 90’s and 00’s we lost out on multiple players because the club didn’t pay the big wages as well as offer the wage increases to keep players , it’s as key to keeping a team successful and together as is winning trophies and buying players - even more so when it’s incentive based


      I don’t think anyone has suggested Klopp should be “grateful” or that he isn’t doing an outstanding job - it’s more the fact that Klopp can’t do it on his own - Klopp himself has said that yet some fans dismiss it


      It’s like when things don’t go well the owners get the blame for not giving the manager the tools - one person can’t get all the credit when it goes well and one person can’t get all the blame when it doesn’t
      Shabs
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      Re: NESV/Fenway Sports Group: Owners of LFC
      Reply #28357: Jun 10, 2021 08:22:47 pm
      The manager has spent over £560 million since he arrived at the club - he doesnt scrimp and save for pennies , £560million on multiple players which have already been highlighted- does it matter where the money comes from , is VVD a better signing if the £80mil came from a different source ?

      It’s all part of the make up of how the team works - and it’s exactly how we worked in the 80’s when I grew up , the club sold players and others arrived to replace them , there was no big pot of golf to dip into , the club worked within their financial boundaries and used their outstanding scouting and coaching team to build winning teams - they were bought using an endless purse of money as if player a football simulator

      As for the wage bill - through out the 90’s and 00’s we lost out on multiple players because the club didn’t pay the big wages as well as offer the wage increases to keep players , it’s as key to keeping a team successful and together as is winning trophies and buying players - even more so when it’s incentive based


      I don’t think anyone has suggested Klopp should be “grateful” or that he isn’t doing an outstanding job - it’s more the fact that Klopp can’t do it on his own - Klopp himself has said that yet some fans dismiss it


      It’s like when things don’t go well the owners get the blame for not giving the manager the tools - one person can’t get all the credit when it goes well and one person can’t get all the blame when it doesn’t


      Net spend.. I guess you have seen the figures.. 😂

      I’m still trying to work out the £317 million in wages & who earns it...
      Lallana in Pyjamas
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      Re: NESV/Fenway Sports Group: Owners of LFC
      Reply #28358: Jun 10, 2021 08:33:51 pm
      Net spend.. I guess you have seen the figures.. 😂

      I’m still trying to work out the £317 million in wages & who earns it...

      Who cares about net spend ? Does it matter 🤷‍♂️

      The wage bill was highlighted in the accounts was it not

      This will be the base without bonuses


      https://lfcglobe.co.uk/liverpool-fc-players-wages-contract-details/

      https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/liverpools-surging-wage-bill-how-20473228.amp

      It includes new contract bonuses etc
      CT_LFC
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      Re: NESV/Fenway Sports Group: Owners of LFC
      Reply #28359: Jun 10, 2021 08:49:45 pm
      Net spend.. I guess you have seen the figures.. 😂

      I’m still trying to work out the £317 million in wages & who earns it...

      net spend  :laugh:

      Paying 150M for Mbappe = we are backing Jürgen and can compete
      Waiting to get Mbappe on a free = we are not backing Jürgen and cannot compete

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      Re: NESV/Fenway Sports Group: Owners of LFC
      Reply #28360: Jun 10, 2021 08:52:16 pm
      net spend  :laugh:

      Paying 150M for Mbappe = we are backing Jürgen and can compete
      Waiting to get Mbappe on a free = we are not backing Jürgen and cannot compete

      Mbappe on a free lmao

      Every club, worth a mention, in world football will be submitting a contract to him.

      Have you seen what happens when we have to compete with other clubs to sign a player?
      Lallana in Pyjamas
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      Re: NESV/Fenway Sports Group: Owners of LFC
      Reply #28361: Jun 10, 2021 08:54:39 pm
      Mbappe on a free lmao

      Every club, worth a mention, in world football will be submitting a contract to him.

      Have you seen what happens when we have to compete with other clubs to sign a player?


      Which players are you talking about ?


      How about VVD ? Didn’t he turn down both City and Chelsea ?


      If Mbappe is going for a free there is every chance would have a chance to get him - why wouldn’t we ?
      -LFC-
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      Re: NESV/Fenway Sports Group: Owners of LFC
      Reply #28362: Jun 10, 2021 09:09:00 pm
      The manager has spent over £560 million since he arrived at the club - he doesnt scrimp and save for pennies , £560million on multiple players which have already been highlighted- does it matter where the money comes from , is VVD a better signing if the £80mil came from a different source ?

      It’s all part of the make up of how the team works - and it’s exactly how we worked in the 80’s when I grew up , the club sold players and others arrived to replace them , there was no big pot of golf to dip into , the club worked within their financial boundaries and used their outstanding scouting and coaching team to build winning teams - they were bought using an endless purse of money as if player a football simulator

      As for the wage bill - through out the 90’s and 00’s we lost out on multiple players because the club didn’t pay the big wages as well as offer the wage increases to keep players , it’s as key to keeping a team successful and together as is winning trophies and buying players - even more so when it’s incentive based


      I don’t think anyone has suggested Klopp should be “grateful” or that he isn’t doing an outstanding job - it’s more the fact that Klopp can’t do it on his own - Klopp himself has said that yet some fans dismiss it


      It’s like when things don’t go well the owners get the blame for not giving the manager the tools - one person can’t get all the credit when it goes well and one person can’t get all the blame when it doesn’t


      You've mentioned that figure a couple of times now so let's have a look.

      By my reckoning we have spent approximately £475m on transfers in Klopp's five full seasons in charge with about £355m of players leaving us. That's £120m spent over and above player sales or £24m per season on average.

      For the same period the Munts spent about £700m and sold about £200m worth of players. That's £500m spent over and above what they brought in or £100m per season, which is almost five times the amount spent.

      Could we have spent much less than we have and achieved the same level of success? What has been the key difference? The support of the owners, technical men, data scientists, or their respective managers?

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      Re: NESV/Fenway Sports Group: Owners of LFC
      Reply #28363: Jun 10, 2021 09:17:52 pm
      You've mentioned that figure a couple of times now so let's have a look.

      By my reckoning we have spent approximately £475m on transfers in Klopp's five full seasons in charge with about £355m of players leaving us. That's £120m spent over and above player sales or £24m per season on average.

      For the same period the Munts spent about £700m and sold about £200m worth of players. That's £500m spent over and above what they brought in or £100m per season, which is almost five times the amount spent.

      Could we have spent much less than we have and achieved the same level of success? What has been the key difference? The support of the owners, technical men, data scientists, or their respective managers?

      I’m not bothered about what other clubs spend - other clubs have different financial models that they work too


      Man Utd spent fortunes and won what ?


      We spent less and won what ?


      One club is clearly doing their finances far better

      Man Utd spent more on Maguire than we did on VVD, Chelsea spent more on Kepa and Werner than we did on Alisson and Jota , Man Utd spent more on Fred than we did on Fabinho


      Is that a sign of a club that is clearly scouting their players better and buying the players that fit to what the manager wants ?


      The clear different between Man Utd and Liverpool over the 5 years in a multiple reasons - better players bought , better tactics , better coaching , better management

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      Re: NESV/Fenway Sports Group: Owners of LFC
      Reply #28364: Jun 10, 2021 09:58:37 pm

      Which players are you talking about ?


      How about VVD ? Didn’t he turn down both City and Chelsea ?


      If Mbappe is going for a free there is every chance would have a chance to get him - why wouldn’t we ?

      Because he'll want 350k per week and upwards.

      I've heard every man and his dog defend not signing world elite players because we "don't want to disrupt the wage structure". Am I wrong? Will Salah not demand to be on par with Mbappe?

      Picking Virgil, out of an extremely long list of players we missed out on when going head to head with other elite teams, is quite convenient to your narrative
      Lallana in Pyjamas
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      Re: NESV/Fenway Sports Group: Owners of LFC
      Reply #28365: Jun 10, 2021 10:04:30 pm
      Because he'll want 350k per week and upwards.

      I've heard every man and his dog defend not signing world elite players because we "don't want to disrupt the wage structure". Am I wrong? Will Salah not demand to be on par with Mbappe?

      Picking Virgil, out of an extremely long list of players we missed out on when going head to head with other elite teams, is quite convenient to your narrative

      The club already pays high wages and if he is available the club will look to see what they can offer him - and who cares what Salah would demand , he has a long contract already

      We won’t spend £100mil plus on a transfer fee for an “elite world class” as you call them unless the money is available

      Can you show me this “extremely long list” or players we have missed out on when going head to head with another club
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      Re: NESV/Fenway Sports Group: Owners of LFC
      Reply #28366: Jun 10, 2021 11:45:30 pm
      The clear different between Man Utd and Liverpool over the 5 years in a multiple reasons - better players bought , better tactics , better coaching , better management



      Agreed. The fact that we have a manager who was able to build a team capable of winning the league and CL despite the huge disparity in spending with our main rivals shows how lucky we are to have him.
      Lallana in Pyjamas
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      Re: NESV/Fenway Sports Group: Owners of LFC
      Reply #28367: Jun 10, 2021 11:47:38 pm
      Agreed. The fact that we have a manager who was able to build a team capable of winning the league and CL despite the huge disparity in spending with our main rivals shows how lucky we are to have him.

      Plus the fact we have a superb scouting team that were able to purchase the required players - also shows how lucky we have Edwards doing the transfers


      It’s not just the manager.
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      Re: NESV/Fenway Sports Group: Owners of LFC
      Reply #28368: Jun 11, 2021 12:11:31 am
      Plus the fact we have a superb scouting team that were able to purchase the required players - also shows how lucky we have Edwards doing the transfers


      It’s not just the manager.

      No but it is by and large given he is the guy that has the most important input into that process in the same way that he is the most important person when it comes to working with the players and getting them to perform on the pitch.

      If Edwards moved to Man Utd with Solskjaer as manager I’m sure their hit rate would improve but they wouldn’t win anything all the same whereas I think if you gave Klopp their £100m a season net but took away Edwards and hired another guru I’m still quite sure he would be winning major trophies.
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      Re: NESV/Fenway Sports Group: Owners of LFC
      Reply #28369: Jun 11, 2021 12:22:05 am
      hydroxychloroquine, plenty evidence to suggest it destroys Covid... but let’s not deflect from the thread..

      I’m not a net spender  or spend for the sake of it junkie or expect £100 million spend on every player but you have to  questioning the wage bill.

      Haha :D sure, whatever.

      I just find the selective scepticism very amusing. You can always send an email to Ernst & Young, the independent auditors of Liverpool accounts, to let them know of your concerns regarding the veracity of their wage bills. Send them a twitter or reddit link to back it up too.
      « Last Edit: Jun 11, 2021 12:43:08 am by Diego LFC »
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      Re: NESV/Fenway Sports Group: Owners of LFC
      Reply #28370: Jun 11, 2021 12:25:21 am
      They do concern me, and they have done since uber rich foreign owners started buying into the Premier League.

      We have no idea when or if FSG will sell, but reading between the lines, it looks like empire building rather than a fast quid.

      I really don't know how I feel about that.
      Liverpool is likely to be the Flagship club for any European expansion of the group, and as such, they'll want maximum exposure, which in turn means winning as much as possible.

      I reckon these types of groups are going to become more common, with owners having one big club, and several (or many) smaller clubs, both as feeders and revenue generators.

      Wealth always accumulates assets, and the trick then is to increase the worth of those assets.
      This doesn't necessarily mean selling them once they reach a certain level, it can also mean clout, prestige and power.
      Exactly the things billionaoires look for, because they cannot spend all the money they already have.

      Is it unrealistic to think the way the FSG principals realize the return on their investment is by selling their stakes in....FSG?

      It seems like selling the club for the kind of money being talked about is maybe not as likely given a seeming cap on how much the next owner(s) could raise the club's value. But the individual investors, large and small, could sell their part of FSG for a more attainable price tag (albeit a very lucrative one of the sellers). The club would continue to generate revenue of course and ideally would still be stewarded responsibly.
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      Re: NESV/Fenway Sports Group: Owners of LFC
      Reply #28371: Jun 11, 2021 12:36:29 am
      LFC is a speculator/market player's dream, guaranteed improved financial results year on year.

      Except in the last 20 years, it has posted losses in 11, including in the latest financial results.
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      Re: NESV/Fenway Sports Group: Owners of LFC
      Reply #28372: Jun 11, 2021 12:40:12 am
      add a lot of clever spreadsheet pics that amount to nothing

      I love the use of the word "clever" here - just because you don't understand something, it doesn't mean it amounts to nothing.

      When you are discussing finances, posting a few financial facts is a reasonable thing to do.
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      Re: NESV/Fenway Sports Group: Owners of LFC
      Reply #28373: Jun 11, 2021 01:01:32 am
      Except in the last 20 years, it has posted losses in 11, including in the latest financial results.

      True, but the value of the club has skyrocketed regardless. That’s not really even questionable.
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      Re: NESV/Fenway Sports Group: Owners of LFC
      Reply #28374: Jun 11, 2021 01:06:42 am
      True, but the value of the club has skyrocketed regardless. That’s not really even questionable.

      Of course, which is a different thing. It was partly due to the market (the value of every PL club has increased in the last few years) and partly due to the club's performance on and off the pitch.

      There are no "guaranteed improved financial results" in competitive football though

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