2 up front please - Torres needs support and we need goals!

Have any of you had the horrible thought we may play 5 in the middle:

Mascherano and Alonso Centre Holding

Pennant and Kewell on the Wings (or whoever he brings in)

and Gerrard Floating between Midfield and Support for

the lone Stricker TORRES

Due to our number of Midfielders and Rafas defensive mind - can't you see this happening

This will be a huge mistake - as Torres will struggle without a partner.

Don't knock it - could well happen!

Yes, I've had the 'horrible' thought we might play with a 5 man midfield, Especially in big cup games or away from home against top teams.

There is nothing wrong with playing a 5 man midfield in certain circumstances. I'd agree though that Torres isn't the man to lead the line on that occasion and I would opt for Crouch, the best holdup player we have. When playing 4-5-1 you need someone at the top who's going to hold the ball up well & give the attacking midfielders a chance to join the play, otherwise you just end up losing possession if the lone striker tries to go it alone after recieving the ball. Torres could still play the attacking midfield role though, with Gerrard on the right.

I don't see what the big fuss is, 4-5-1 is a handy formation in certain games like the one's I named above. Sometimes attack isn't the best form of defence, defence is.

Yes, I've had the 'horrible' thought we might play with a 5 man midfield, Especially in big cup games or away from home against top teams.

There is nothing wrong with playing a 5 man midfield in certain circumstances. I'd agree though that Torres isn't the man to lead the line on that occasion and I would opt for Crouch, the best holdup player we have. When playing 4-5-1 you need someone at the top who's going to hold the ball up well & give the attacking midfielders a chance to join the play, otherwise you just end up losing possession if the lone striker tries to go it alone after recieving the ball. Torres could still play the attacking midfield role though, with Gerrard on the right.

I don't see what the big fuss is, 4-5-1 is a handy formation in certain games like the one's I named above. Sometimes attack isn't the best form of defence, defence is.

Are you never negative and try and find the good in everything?

5 in the midfield lost us the Champions League final this year - do you agree?

It means Gerrard plays out of position - and will play a free support role.  Which is not his best!

We bought Torres to score goals - I for one do not want to see him dropping back like Kuyt does and wastes his best atribute - cracking the ball in the net.

Are you never negative and try and find the good in everything?

5 in the midfield lost us the Champions League final this year - do you agree?

It means Gerrard plays out of position - and will play a free support role.  Which is not his best!

We bought Torres to score goals - I for one do not want to see him dropping back like Kuyt does and wastes his best atribute - cracking the ball in the net.

I don't think 5 in midfield lost us the Champions League, no. I think we should have changed tactics earlier than we did, but remebr it was that 5 in midfield that got us through some potentially difficult European away ties to get us to the final in the first place.

I completely disagree that we bought Torres here to score goals, if we wanted goals then for that sort of money we would have got a proven goalscorer. I think the main thing Torres will bring to the team is getting the best out of a lot of his team mates, especially Kuyt. His style of play would drag players out of position, creating spaces for others to benefit from. He'll get his fair share, but I honestly believe there's no way that Torres will be our 'main man' in terms of scoring next season. He has never shown himself to be a world class finisher in terms of banging them in left, right & centre, but he does have the tendency to score vital goals when needed. Quite frankly I would be happy if he only scored 5 goals all season as long as they were all match winning goals, as we would have 10 extra points. Personally I reckon he'll get 10-15, with some of them being crucial goals & quite a few assists thrown in for good measure.

I don't think 5 in midfield lost us the Champions League, no. I think we should have changed tactics earlier than we did, but remebr it was that 5 in midfield that got us through some potentially difficult European away ties to get us to the final in the first place.

I completely disagree that we bought Torres here to score goals, if we wanted goals then for that sort of money we would have got a proven goalscorer. I think the main thing Torres will bring to the team is getting the best out of a lot of his team mates, especially Kuyt. His style of play would drag players out of position, creating spaces for others to benefit from. He'll get his fair share, but I honestly believe there's no way that Torres will be our 'main man' in terms of scoring next season. He has never shown himself to be a world class finisher in terms of banging them in left, right & centre, but he does have the tendency to score vital goals when needed. Quite frankly I would be happy if he only scored 5 goals all season as long as they were all match winning goals, as we would have 10 extra points. Personally I reckon he'll get 10-15, with some of them being crucial goals & quite a few assists thrown in for good measure.

If he only scores 5 goals this season - he'll be on his way next season.

Do you not know that he's going to be judged on goals.  Every game he's going to be under pressure to score - that goes with the price tag I'm afraid.

Sorry Mate - Torres has been brought in for the 'Whole Package' hence why he's cost so much.  He's expected to score 15plus, and provide for the team...it's as simple as that!

Going back to my point - Its easier playing up front with a strick partner!

It means Gerrard plays out of position - and will play a free support role.  Which is not his best!

I actually think Stevie plays some of his best football when he's given a free role - That's usually when you see him all over the pitch, defending, attacking, moving to the wings, blasting goals in from outside the box and harrying nearly every player to up their performance. Admittedly he didn't perform as well there last season as he did the season before, but I still think he plays some of his best football when he's given free roam of the pitch.

With reference to playing with only one up front, I agree with Eddie that the formation does have it's uses - it gives us more control over the midfield and, on the few occasions we used it last season, the majority of possession - allowing us to control the games. Yes it may not be the greatest for scoring lots of goals per game, but we only need to score one to win...

Finally, I'm sure Rafa said somewhere he wasn't expecting Torres to be the talismanic striker, and would be much happier if all the strikers scored 15 a piece. (Found it!)

Benitez is also confident Torres will be able to handle the pressure of expectation, now on his shoulders after his record move.

"I'm not thinking about 20 goals (a season). I'd rather have four strikers who score 15 goals each," continued Benitez.
From SSN

Have any of you had the horrible thought we may play 5 in the middle:

Mascherano and Alonso Centre Holding

Pennant and Kewell on the Wings (or whoever he brings in)

and Gerrard Floating between Midfield and Support for

the lone Stricker TORRES

Due to our number of Midfielders and Rafas defensive mind - can't you see this happening

This will be a huge mistake - as Torres will struggle without a partner.

Don't knock it - could well happen!

Well it all depends on how often it happens for it to turn out to be a 'horrible' thing or a good thing Richo. It's certainly gonna happen this coming season in my opinion - as you've pointed out. How often though remains to be seen. I reckon Kuyt and Crouch are gonna get their fair share of games playing alongside Torres though - maybe more for Kuyt.

But I wouldn't be surprised if it's tricky away games in the European Cup or tough games away, against teams with a lot of creative quality where we play five in midfield with Gerrard playing in behind Torres.

You're spot on saying we need goals. I personally still think we need a poacher who instinctively knows where the net is.

We'll probably have a better idea how things might pan out once the transfer window closes.

I actually think Stevie plays some of his best football when he's given a free role - That's usually when you see him all over the pitch, defending, attacking, moving to the wings, blasting goals in from outside the box and harrying nearly every player to up their performance. Admittedly he didn't perform as well there last season as he did the season before, but I still think he plays some of his best football when he's given free roam of the pitch.

With reference to playing with only one up front, I agree with Eddie that the formation does have it's uses - it gives us more control over the midfield and, on the few occasions we used it last season, the majority of possession - allowing us to control the games. Yes it may not be the greatest for scoring lots of goals per game, but we only need to score one to win...

Finally, I'm sure Rafa said somewhere he wasn't expecting Torres to be the talismanic striker, and would be much happier if all the strikers scored 15 a piece. (Found it!)

Benitez is also confident Torres will be able to handle the pressure of expectation, now on his shoulders after his record move.

"I'm not thinking about 20 goals (a season). I'd rather have four strikers who score 15 goals each," continued Benitez.
From SSN

That was just a quote mate to take the heat of Torres, don;t take it seriously:

So you think Voronin, Kuyt, Torres and Crouch will all get 15 this season - that's 60 goals

That was just a quote mate to take the heat of Torres, don;t take it seriously:

So you think Voronin, Kuyt, Torres and Crouch will all get 15 this season - that's 60 goals

I wasn't insinuating that Rafa's view was set in stone, and I certainly don't take it as gospel - Hoverever it is a valid point.
I don't see any reason why Crouch and Kuyt shouldn't be capable of scoring 15 goals per season - Last season Crouch got 13 goals from 21 Prem starts, and Kuyt got 12 out of 27 - Thats not far off the 15 each. (Stats from SSN)
Granted Voronin is an unknown quantity, but we just don't know at this stage how often he'll be played.
It's also worth remembering that Drogba won the Prem's Golden Boot last season with only 20 goals.

Back to the main point regarding 5 men midfields though. Goals per game (and season) are not the only stat that wins the league.
Last season for example, Man Ure scored 83 compared to Chelsea's 64 - Thats a 20 goal difference and only 6 points seperating the two in the league. Now factor in that last season we scored 57 - Thats only 8 goals less than Chelski, and we ended up 15 points behind them. (Stats from OPTA) There's no doubt the Man Ure scored loads and it helped them win, but Chelsea managed to almost get the same points score while scoring TWENTY goals less - Thats a big margin. It's all about the games you win, not how much you win by - I'd be perfectly happy with 1-0 wins all season if it gets us the title!
As is stated in my previous post which you quoted, we only need to score one goal to win a game - knocking four or five past Birmingham or Derby won't win us the title - getting one past Man Ure/Chelski/Arsenal while keeping a clean sheet will - and five in midfeild is a valid option that may help us do that.

If we were to buy Simao and Quaresma then Torres as a lone striker would work well because Simao and Quaresma are wing forwards who'll play high up the pitch like forward players.

Pennant and Gonzalez are different, they would never leave the touch line!

If we were to buy Simao and Quaresma then Torres as a lone striker would work well because Simao and Quaresma are wing forwards who'll play high up the pitch like forward players.

Pennant and Gonzalez are different, they would never leave the touch line!

I think Torres does need a proper partner to benefit from the openings he creates. On the odd occassions we do play one upfront I'd rather see Kuyt or Crouch in the role, maybe with Torres in the attacking mid/supporting striker role.

I think Torres does need a proper partner to benefit from the openings he creates. On the odd occassions we do play one upfront I'd rather see Kuyt or Crouch in the role, maybe with Torres in the attacking mid/supporting striker role.

Only time will tell.

Time, hurry up please I can't wait!

We have 5 Central midfields and all very talented and with bags of potential he may well use 451 a lot. Maybe the amount of wingers he purchases may also give an indication of how often we will play the 4-5-1 system.   It may depend on how well Torres can play the lone striker role.  He hasn’t obviously gone and broke the transfer record to see him fail.  How often 4-5-1 is used may depend on how well it suits Torres!

I think that next season Rafa will use a variety of formations depending on the opposition but when he does use 4-2-3-1 or 4-5-1 it will be Kuyt up front with Torres supporting just behind. If Rafa gets the right wingers to play in this formation it can be a very attacking formation rather than a negative one which most people seem to think it is. Don't forget that many of the best sides in world football use this formation and are successful with it ie Barca, Argentina Milan etc. But as I said we have to get the right players in the next few weeks if Rafa is to use this type of formation successfully next season.

I think we exchange views on that with Eddie on an other thread ( concerning torres as a goal scorer) and we disagree but concerning the formation, I really like to think of an aggressive 4-3-3 with torres, kuyt, crouch/voronin in front at home could be all good. I realise that this might make RAFA think hard of who to play in the middle, but that is one system who I think could bring lot's of goals..That would keep Gerrard in the middle with Mascherano and Alonso or Kewell...Our back four is strong enough to try that..Any though on that?

I agree with Cy that 4-3-3 is a more positive way to look at it.  All depends on who he plays where - I can see Babel filling the position on the left of a forward line with Torres playing off Crouch/Vorinan.  Stevie G playing on the right of a midfield three with license to get past the last man.

One things for sure playing 4-3-3 will keep our full backs busy, but would be positive tactic against those majority of teams that just sit !

C O M E   O N   Y O U   R E D S[move]

As I posted in this years line up thread, I think the 4-5-1 will be good line up, although I see more off a 4-2-3-1!
I think Kuyt will be the man further up the pitch with Pennant/Babel, Gerrard/Leiva and Torres/Kewell supporting, and Alonso and Mascherano/Sissoko as the holding players.

We would be great defensively and awesome going forward!

Voronin is another option as the front man in tougher games as he is very strong and can hold the ball up well.

see liverpool echo.......... different news i know ( but Mancini interest is well an truly dead)....... see liverpool echo. different news but all the same ) it important. Heinze looks promising although  can see Ferguson getting him offloaded to real or juve.......... torres has to play with two wide men and a runner alongside or can play up alone with Gerrard close to him coming through with runs of the 2 wingers.