Celtic plans ban for Poppy protesters

Celtic plans to ban fans who protested against the poppy appeal, with a banner that read "Your deeds would shame all the devils in Hell. Ireland, Iraq, Afghanistan. No bloodstained poppy on our Hoops." whats the world comming to ?.
 Link http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/c/celtic/9168655.stm

They have the right to ban anyone from their ground as it is private property.

They have the right to ban anyone from their ground as it is private property.

I agree with you maybe i didn't make myself to clear

Fair enough i say. Freedom of speech and all that, but that was offensive IMO. Football grounds are no place for that kinda thing.

Fair enough I say. Freedom of speech and all that, but that was offensive IMO. Football grounds are no place for that kinda thing.

Secterianism is a problem in the spl.

I have been to a Celtic home game i thought i was in Ireland

I read on Facebook that this is a load of Bo*****s.

Absolutely shocking to hear about this. Tarnished the names of Celtic fans.

Am I the only one who supports the supporter's actions?

Am I the only one who supports the supporter's actions?

Probably. At least i hope so. It's a shameful act, and i would love to hear your explanation as to why you support this sh*t?

Secterianism is a problem in the spl.

Well aware of it, as unfortunate as it is.

Probably. At least i hope so. It's a shameful act, and i would love to hear your explanation as to why you support this sh*t?

Well aware of it, as unfortunate as it is.

I believe in freedom of speech and you can't have freedom of speech "as long as it doesn't offend anybody" because that's not freedom of speech. Football (well sport in general) and politics should be kept separate, a campaign to support the troops has no place in football, if this issue isn't raised in the first place, you won't have protests like this speaking out against it.  I don't believe in celebrating the heroics of men with guns/bombs. I'm against the war in Iraq and Afghanistan, if the forces that sent us into war have the right to disagree with those who believe we shouldn't have gone there, surely protesters have the right to disagree with those who have gone there.  Just my take on it.

As an Irishman it would be easy to take a soft view of this, but really this sort of thing has no place at a football match. It is a militant statement and as such should not be entrenched in footballing mentality

I believe in freedom of speech and you can't have freedom of speech "as long as it doesn't offend anybody" because that's not freedom of speech. Football (well sport in general) and politics should be kept separate, a campaign to support the troops has no place in football, if this issue isn't raised in the first place, you won't have protests like this speaking out against it.  I don't believe in celebrating the heroics of men with guns/bombs. I'm against the war in Iraq and Afghanistan, if the forces that sent us into war have the right to disagree with those who believe we shouldn't have gone there, surely protesters have the right to disagree with those who have gone there.  Just my take on it.

So what about the men on the beaches of Normandy? The Western Front? The Pacific? Hell, Vietnam, Korea, and even these wars - those men are being sent over by higher forces. Don't disrespect them, and those who have gone before them. F**k freedom of speech, IMO as long as they are conducting themselves the way they should then they deserve respect, regardless of what you think of the wars they are fighting. Remember, this memorial day thing is not just for the current wars, its for whats gone before as well.

I don't give a F**k about the politics, this day is about remembrance for fucks sake. Or i guess you support turning up at soldiers funerals with signs saying 'Burn in hell' etc?

This annoys me from an Irish perspective

1) Poppys are worn in most countries who were effected by the war as a mark of respect to the soldiers who lost there life fighting the nazis its not about Britain or the British army

2) during both world wars thousands upon thousands of Irishmen fought in the British army why should they not be remembered for their efforts

Clowns these people who I bet if they trace back there family will find a member of there family was in the British army. I bet they have no true idea of Irish history just what they pick up along their biggotted way. Not asking for a love in just respect those who fought for world freedom

I find the whole matter totally unpleasant, as I'm afraid I find a lot of things that go on with Rangers and Celtic.

The IRA chants during the minutes silence after the 9/11 terrorist attacks was another event I can remember.

For me personally football comes before politics or religion.  It seems for some at Parkhead, football is the last thing they are there for.

I saw this quote from a Dundee Utd fan: (I assume the first part is related to the mis-spelling of the word blood on their banner)

"You've got to feel that if you are going to make your annual "continue to make your club out to be a pathetic bunch of terrorist-sympathising nutjobs" then at least let matron check out the work you've done on your torn bedsheets when you hand back the crayons. I am no longer surprised, no longer shocked by these knuckle-draggers.

They still seem oblivious to the irony of hating the English yet wanting to whore themselves to them - burning the St George's flag at preseason friendlies in front of bemused locals and so on, yet desperately pleading to enter England's competitive setup. So not shocked at all, but just when you think they can't possibly look any more stupid by God they go and break their own records! ...

I wonder what it must be like to hate yourself, hate your country, romanticise the land of your great-great grandad and yet want to play in the league of your imagined oppressors? Tell you what, all the shrinks in the world couldn't untangle the heads inside Celtic Park if they had a thousand years!"

I find the whole matter totally unpleasant, as I'm afraid I find a lot of things that go on with Rangers and Celtic.

The IRA chants during the minutes silence after the 9/11 terrorist attacks was another event I can remember.

For me personally football comes before politics or religion.  It seems for some at Parkhead, football is the last thing they are there for.

The Old Firm will always struggle to get rid of the sectarianism as large portions of their fans want to continue along these lines and it's good to see the club taking this line on this issue.

Here in Northern Ireland you are seen as Protestant if you wear a poppy and vice versa but in realty there are many thousands of Irish Catholics who fought in the war but will not wear a poppy as it's seen as supporting the British Army.

Totally disrespectful.

I really don't like some of the things that go on with Rangers and Celtic - particularly the religious side of things.

I was in Tenerife last year and came across a 'Rangers Bar' with a massive protestant badge placed on the headboard.

Hate stuff like that.

So what about the men on the beaches of Normandy? The Western Front? The Pacific? Hell, Vietnam, Korea, and even these wars - those men are being sent over by higher forces. Don't disrespect them, and those who have gone before them. F**k freedom of speech, IMO as long as they are conducting themselves the way they should then they deserve respect, regardless of what you think of the wars they are fighting. Remember, this memorial day thing is not just for the current wars, its for whats gone before as well.

I don't give a F**k about the politics, this day is about remembrance for fucks sake. Or i guess you support turning up at soldiers funerals with signs saying 'Burn in hell' etc?

What about the IRA, ETA and Al-Qaeda?  Don't disrespect them, they're fighting for a cause they believe is correct.  Come on man, it can swing both ways.  The only rational way is to condemn them all - people with guns are cowards and should not be lauded as heroes, they're simply doing somebody else's dirty job.  There's no national or worldwide "thank you to plumbers day (who do the same thing), why are soldiers held in higher regard?", but as long as they conform to your standards though and conduct themselves in a way which doesn't represent a different set of views to your own, then they have a right to freedom of speech or freedom of protest.  Hate to tell you but that's not freedom of speech or protest.

Respect is earned, not given.  You might respect them for serving in any given war, I respect the people who try and broker peace talks.  Like you, it could be said I don't give a F**k about the politics but I think we can agree it has no place in sport because sport has a great way of bonding two people who are otherwise on opposite ends of the political spectrum.  I feel the wearing of the poppy breaches that in the first place.

I don't personally support showing up at soldier's funerals with "burn in hell" signs but I respect people's right to do so.  I think it's in poor taste but I also feel that human rights and freedom of speech/protest/press/opinion are more important than offending what the mainstream would consider the social norm.  I want equality for all, if protesting about politics in sport isn't fair game on the grounds of separation of the two, then the same rule should apply to pushing political agendas on sports.  Simple case of what's good for the geese is good for the gander.

Now before you jump on my IRA, ETA, Al-Qaeda comments citing that they kill innocent civilians and use terror to intimidate people, if you think the governments of those involved in ALL wars don't do the same, you're only kidding yourself.  One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.  Condemn neither or condemn them both.

Turning in to a Current Affairs topic this.

The point is this was displayed at a football match.  Not an anti-war march.  For me, and I'd imagine most people - it has absolutely no place in a football stadium and I agree that Celtic are quite within their rights to ban people for displaying such stuff on what is, essentially, private property.

I do not wear my poppy to support ‘our troops’ out there at the moment.  I turn a blind eye when I see help for hero’s campaigns as a believe that these guys know what they are getting into.

I wear my poppy for the millions of innocent soldiers who almost 100 years ago got lied to and sent to their death over a war that was none of their business. 

I agree with you maybe I didn't make myself to clear

No, you did, I was just quickly posting my view

I believe in freedom of speech and you can't have freedom of speech "as long as it doesn't offend anybody" because that's not freedom of speech. Football (well sport in general) and politics should be kept separate, a campaign to support the troops has no place in football, if this issue isn't raised in the first place, you won't have protests like this speaking out against it.  I don't believe in celebrating the heroics of men with guns/bombs. I'm against the war in Iraq and Afghanistan, if the forces that sent us into war have the right to disagree with those who believe we shouldn't have gone there, surely protesters have the right to disagree with those who have gone there.  Just my take on it.

I believe in freedom of speech, but you don't have the right to go onto someone's private property and start protesting or shooting your mouth off - if you do they can ask you to leave.  Freedom of speech stops government censorship, it does not give you a blanket right to protest wherever and whenever you want.

Again - I don't think there should be pressure on football clubs to wear a poppy, even though I support the campaign myself. However, the supporters should have made their statement outside the ground and the club has every right to ban them.

What about the IRA, ETA and Al-Qaeda?  Don't disrespect them, they're fighting for a cause they believe is correct.

If they attacked military targets, I'd respect their cause whether I agreed or not.  But these are not freedom fighters, they are terrorists who indiscriminately kill innocent men, women and children.

The only rational way is to condemn them all - people with guns are cowards and should not be lauded as heroes,

I'm glad you were not in charge of planning the Battle of Britain or D-Day... you are the Roy Hodgson of military planning...

There's no national or worldwide "thank you to plumbers day (who do the same thing), why are soldiers held in higher regard?",

Because I don't know of any plumber who has died in the line of duty, fighting for my freedom.  Maybe a few have got a little damp from a leaky pipe...

Now before you jump on my IRA, ETA, Al-Qaeda comments citing that they kill innocent civilians and use terror to intimidate people, if you think the governments of those involved in ALL wars don't do the same, you're only kidding yourself.  One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.  Condemn neither or condemn them both.

Nonsense.  Legitimate military campaigns aim to avoid civilian casualties and it is an unavoidable tragedy when civilians die, freedom fighters also avoid civilians and target the military.  Terrorists on the other hand aim to kill civilians.  If you can't see that distinction, there is no point in this discussion.

The more I think of it, the less I like the idea that our players are being forced by Hodgson to wear the poppy next weekend.

Will we be kitted out in red-noses for comic relief?  or yellow kits and bandages for children in need?

Not wise and I don't agree with it but they have the right to do it. This is just another chapter in the long saga of the Old Firm, it will continue for aslong as they both keep raising their kids like this, both sides are as bad as each other. Take that for someone who has to listen to the bile they produce on a daily basis.

But fully expected and its always a problem this time of year at Celtic Park.

And as I'm sure you're all aware the club have agreed to wear the poppy on their shirt.

^ You could argue similar things about wearing black armbands for the death of members of the Royal Family etc.

^ You could argue similar things about wearing black armbands for the death of members of the Royal Family etc.

Agreed, black armbands for football related deaths only.

The sad thing about the whole saga is today as we argue innocent lives are lost on both sides of the war in the poppy fields of afghanistan.

I dont see any difference from the muslim extremist who wanted to march at wotten basset to highlight the plight of the innocent civilians in the theaters of war or the fans that held the banners at parkhead.

I dont see any difference from the muslim extremist who wanted to march at wotten basset to highlight the plight of the innocent civilians in the theaters of war or the fans that held the banners at parkhead.

I disagreed with those extremists (as most people do) and certainly don't think they help the image of Islam in the UK, but they have the right to march to voice their views - just not in that particular area.

Am I the only one who supports the supporter's actions?

Probably not vitez but for different reasons maybe. Their actions are based solely on sectarianism - is your support?

Check this out:

http://www.hellfire-corner.demon.co.uk/celtic.htm

Unlike the romantic roots of the Club, the link between Celtic and the 1st World War has yet to be fully explored. Yet to ignore it is to deny football fans the world over access to another major part of Celtic's unique social history.

For example, Willie Angus who signed for Celtic in 1911 and played for the team during seasons 1912-13 and 1913-14 became the first ever Scottish Territorial soldier to win the Victoria Cross.

Willie won his VC on June 12th, 1915 in Givenchy. He lost an eye, damaged a foot and was wounded 40 times in the process of successfully rescuing Lt James Martin, a fellow native of Willie's home town of Carluke who was lying injured a couple of feet away from the German front lines. A visit to the Willie Angus website gives the reader the full details of his deed and provides a unique insight into his truly amazing story. Needless to say Willie never played for Celtic again after this.

There were other Celts who fought and unlike Willie never made it back to Blighty. Of the 908,371 British and Commonwealth soldiers killed during the Great 1914-18 War, 7 of them were on the books of Celtic.

I guess the protesters, in their bitterness, can't see the wood for the trees. Maybe they don't mind pissing on the memory of former Celts? Shame on them and their bitter, sectarian agenda.

Hail hail.

Its a whole load of poppycock if you ask me 

I believe in freedom of speech, but you don't have the right to go onto someone's private property and start protesting or shooting your mouth off - if you do they can ask you to leave.  Freedom of speech stops government censorship, it does not give you a blanket right to protest wherever and whenever you want.

Again - I don't think there should be pressure on football clubs to wear a poppy, even though I support the campaign myself. However, the supporters should have made their statement outside the ground and the club has every right to ban them.

Correct, Celtic have every right to ban people.  I've touched on this, it's not freedom of speech.  It's freedom of protest and freedom of protest does give you that right, however as it's taken place on private property I've agreed 100% that Celtic can exercise their own right to ban people for no reason other than "because it's my property".  They don't however have the right to press criminal charges.

If they attacked military targets, I'd respect their cause whether I agreed or not.  But these are not freedom fighters, they are terrorists who indiscriminately kill innocent men, women and children.

How are you people clued in to the agenda going on in the press which is generally negative and dismissive towards LFC and in particular our last manager because he's a nasty foreigner but don't see it when it comes to war, the use of the word terrorism and general disregard to anyone with a different belief.

I'm glad you were not in charge of planning the Battle of Britain or D-Day... you are the Roy Hodgson of military planning...

If I had been in charge, I'd have not got us involved in the war.  So there'd be no need to plan the Battle of Britain or D-Day.  Prevention is better than cure.

Because I don't know of any plumber who has died in the line of duty, fighting for my freedom.  Maybe a few have got a little damp from a leaky pipe...

The analogy is simple.  These people are simply doing their job cleaning up other people's sh*t, praise none of them or praise them all.  You'd probably be dead without those plumbers installing sewerage and irrigation systems from diseases.

Nonsense.  Legitimate military campaigns aim to avoid civilian casualties and it is an unavoidable tragedy when civilians die, freedom fighters also avoid civilians and target the military.  Terrorists on the other hand aim to kill civilians.  If you can't see that distinction, there is no point in this discussion.

Bollocks, peace aims to avoid civilian casualties.  I propose to you this question: who is to decide what is a "legitimate" military campaign and what isn't a "legitimate" military campaign?  To claim that civilian deaths during time of war are unavoidable is spot on 100% correct which begs the question, why not eliminate that risk completely by not going to war.  The term terrorist is fast becoming the most misused word in the English language (you've had your time ironic, it was good while it lasted).  

Using your reasoning, a freedom fighter attacks military targets killing people in the process, but you respect their cause.  A terrorist attacks civilian targets also killing people in the process, you condemn them.  This baffles me.  Both freedom fighters and terrorists are killing people, how is one more worthy of praise or any better than the other?

I find it interesting that like you said that no mention is being made to supporting a more universal cause but instead to one with a distinct, underlying political connotation to it.  Either remove all politics from the field (ideal), extend the politics to everyone equally or don't criticise other people (ie. the protesters) for making this a political issue.

I'm muslim and dont support the wars in afganstan andiraq BUT I also understand that soldiers do not have a choice in were they are sent. They dont get to chose the wars they fight and if they do then they are branded as being un-patriotic or a coward by the very people who send them to war under false pretences and then hide behind a facade of prinicple and moral values.

All wars kill innocent people regardless of how hard you try not to and then there are the actions of soldiers who show themselves to be no more then sadistic individuals who treat war as a game in which they get to kill for real. You only have to look at some of the videos from wikileaks to know this true.

I have given to the poppy appeal and as I type my poppy is sitting on my keyboard in front of me. I CHOOSE not to wear it because for me its image has been tarnished, not by the soldiers but by those who on the one hand tell us we should we should respect the fallen and the wounded whilst at the same time showing a total disregard for those same individuals by sending them into a war on the back of false information and lies and then forget about them when they return and fight it difficult to fit back into society.

I dont agree with the celtic fans, there are ways of protesting and that was not it. As someone said earlier there is no place for it sport.

Someone said in post on here (and I'd qoute it but can't find now) "football builds a bound between supporters" and I've been thinking about my own experiances in recent times. Ever since 9/11, 7/7 and other events, as muslim I feel like people in the street look at you in a differant way, maybe its just me being paranoid but it feels like those events have changed peoples perceptions of us so much that they see all muslims as being terrorists and brand our religion as being evil. And I agree that there muslims out there like anjum choudary who dont exactly make life any easier by wanting to march through wootton basset but should we all be judged on the actions of a few? However, all of this aside, I have never felt like this when going to anfield. In there I'm treated with as much respect as the white person next to me, and thats what I love about football. And thats why politics should be left at the gates of a ground. For those 90mins, its a chance for people like me, the working man to just enjoy somethjing that gives pleasure to so many (aside from woy woeful tactics)

I've also been told that there is a way to support our troops but dissaccoiate yourself from the current wars and thats through wearing a white poppy. Thats something I'm going to look at.

How are you people clued in to the agenda going on in the press which is generally negative and dismissive towards LFC and in particular our last manager because he's a nasty foreigner but don't see it when it comes to war, the use of the word terrorism and general disregard to anyone with a different belief.

Sorry... when did Benitez blow up aeroplanes...?

If I had been in charge, I'd have not got us involved in the war.  So there'd be no need to plan the Battle of Britain or D-Day.  Prevention is better than cure.

of course, because Hitler was just going to stop at Calais and wave to us.

The analogy is simple.  These people are simply doing their job cleaning up other people's sh*t, praise none of them or praise them all.  You'd probably be dead without those plumbers installing sewerage and irrigation systems from diseases.

That analogy is ludicrous.  They are not putting their lives on the line.

Bollocks, peace aims to avoid civilian casualties.  I propose to you this question: who is to decide what is a "legitimate" military campaign and what isn't a "legitimate" military campaign?  To claim that civilian deaths during time of war are unavoidable is spot on 100% correct which begs the question, why not eliminate that risk completely by not going to war. 

Your naivety is breathtaking.  You can disagree with certain wars, but not war in general - it is sometimes necessary.

Using your reasoning, a freedom fighter attacks military targets killing people in the process, but you respect their cause.  A terrorist attacks civilian targets also killing people in the process, you condemn them.  This baffles me.  Both freedom fighters and terrorists are killing people, how is one more worthy of praise or any better than the other?

A man is in your home, about to rape your wife.  You kill him.
A man is in the street, minding his own business. You kill him.

Though you have killed a man in both instances, the context is totally different.  One of those is justified, the other isn't, I'll let you try and work out which is which.

Kumbaya.

I've also been told that there is a way to support our troops but dissaccoiate yourself from the current wars and thats through wearing a white poppy. Thats something I'm going to look at.

Great post mate, +

For more info on the white poppy - http://www.ppu.org.uk/poppy/

Great post mate, +

For more info on the white poppy - http://www.ppu.org.uk/poppy/

Thanks for the info and for the +.

If I had been in charge, I'd have not got us involved in the war.  So there'd be no need to plan the Battle of Britain or D-Day.  Prevention is better than cure.

Good thing you weren't in charge then, or we'd all be speaking German and raising our glasses ''TO ZE FUHRER''.

Once again sectarianism comes to the forefront of the Old Firm.  As much as I'm all for freedom of speech, that banner was disgusting and only used to rile more bitter hatred amongst others.  Fair play to Celtic FC though for banning the protesters and wearing the poppies anyway.

In terms of wearing a poppy though, IMO it is a personal choice and probably something that should be left to one's own desire to wear it voluntarily out in the street.  I really don't understand how or why anyone would refuse to wear one but as there are clearly those that do, in a collective sense, maybe its best left out of football.  Still doesn't defend some Celtic fans and their actions though.

Sorry... when did Benitez blow up aeroplanes...?

Never.  Doesn't stop both being beaten with the same tired clichés.
 

of course, because Hitler was just going to stop at Calais and wave to us.

Why did he stop at Switzerland, Sweden, Spain?  The UK declared war on Germany.

That analogy is ludicrous.  They are not putting their lives on the line.

You're right.  In that case, I'd like a thank you for miners day please.

Your naivety is breathtaking.  You can disagree with certain wars, but not war in general - it is sometimes necessary.

War is necessary, I agree 100%.  There needs to be a war to separate religion from politics, a war against racism and a war against greed.  Win those three and you'd probably find that it isn't all that necessary.

A man is in your home, about to rape your wife.  You kill him.
A man is in the street, minding his own business. You kill him.

Though you have killed a man in both instances, the context is totally different.  One of those is justified, the other isn't, I'll let you try and work out which is which.

Kumbaya.

Yes, killing should be condoned or justified but only if it suits your agenda.  Do you not realise the sheer hypocrisy of this?

Good thing you weren't in charge then, or we'd all be speaking German and raising our glasses ''TO ZE FUHRER''.

Once again sectarianism comes to the forefront of the Old Firm.  As much as I'm all for freedom of speech, that banner was disgusting and only used to rile more bitter hatred amongst others.  Fair play to Celtic FC though for banning the protesters and wearing the poppies anyway.

In terms of wearing a poppy though, IMO it is a personal choice and probably something that should be left to one's own desire to wear it voluntarily out in the street.  I really don't understand how or why anyone would refuse to wear one but as there are clearly those that do, in a collective sense, maybe its best left out of football.  Still doesn't defend some Celtic fans and their actions though.

You should learn about history before commenting on it - the UK declared war on Germany.  I'm agreeing with you 100% that sectarianism, religion, politics etc. has no place in football, but you can't bend the rules to say "well wearing a poppy is fine because it suits my agenda" so we either come to draw the conclusion that: a) politics is ok in football; b) politics is only ok in football if the majority agree.  My only support for those Celtic fans doing what they did is that they took a stand against a political campaign not this particular political campaign, albeit they did so for different reasons.

Keep it relatively on topic, and fit for the General Football board.

1. Was it right for the fans to bring what is a non-football club related matter in to a stadium?
2. Are Celtic right to ban those involved?

1. No.  As far as I can see if I was vehemently against making new nuclear weapons I would not choose to protest this at Anfield.
2. For me, they are perfectly within their right as I believe the SFA have rules against political banners inside stadiums.

Keep it relatively on topic, and fit for the General Football board.

1. Was it right for the fans to bring what is a non-football club related matter in to a stadium?
2. Are Celtic right to ban those involved?

1. No.  As far as I can see if I was vehemently against making new nuclear weapons I would not choose to protest this at Anfield.
2. For me, they are perfectly within their right as I believe the SFA have rules against political banners inside stadiums.

but the fans didn't bring this up, the club did by planning to put a poppy on their shirts

Why did he stop at Switzerland, Sweden, Spain?  The UK declared war on Germany.

Switzerland collaborated, Spain was an ally and Hitler did not need to occupy Sweden at that time as he was receiving iron ore and used the country to attack Norway.

Yes, killing should be condoned or justified but only if it suits your agenda.  Do you not realise the sheer hypocrisy of this?

defending your wife as she is about to be raped is now an agenda?

Turning in to a Current Affairs topic this.

The point is this was displayed at a football match.  Not an anti-war march.  For me, and I'd imagine most people - it has absolutely no place in a football stadium and I agree that Celtic are quite within their rights to ban people for displaying such stuff on what is, essentially, private property.

Especially as the chairman is none other than Dr John Reid

Switzerland collaborated, Spain was an ally and Hitler did not need to occupy Sweden at that time as he was receiving iron ore and used the country to attack Norway.

This is the last post I'll make on this topic; a) because it's off-topic enough already and b) because of the complicated relationship during wars and the nature of underhanded deals, nothing is ever so black and white and this could very easily become a 500 page thread about the history of WWII and the complexity of international relations.  All three remained neutral (no, Spain wasn't an ally of the Axis) for one reason or another or didn't feel the need to get involved as they had nothing to gain.

defending your wife as she is about to be raped is now an agenda?

That's not an agenda as such, but the example I made was more to ask the question that "when does it become an agenda and when is it justified".  I find the line is too blurry to say "well it's ok to kill in this war, but not ok to kill in that war", I think it's more reasonable to draw the line and say people killed in the act of war isn't ok or all people killed in the act of war is ok because at least it's consistent and not subject to bias.

Another three possibilities:
c) could end up in a 500 page topic about philosophical conundrums.
d) we continue this in another more appropriate thread (I'm happy with the either philosophical conundrums or WWII international relations, both interest me).
e) talk football in another thread.

To help steer the topic back on track:

Poppies are awesome.

Poppies are awesome.

Poppies are rubbish.  

Poppies are crap.   

I'm going to bloody well shoot you in a minute.  Get back in the Martin Kelly thread, we were agreeing there.  In fact, I was building on your ideas like a team.  You know the thing we've been playing somewhat like recently?

I think a white poppy is more appropriate for Celtic tbh. I don't think they will ban the Green Brigade(who were responsible for the banners). They will get a written warning about political displays on Celtic property as a Celtic park regular as I can't get down to Anfield every week due to age/money I would say that Celtic have had to come out and say bannings will happen to keep the image of club good.

I don't agree or disagree with what those Celtic lads have done, but I do agree that politics shouldn't be forced onto football clubs.

When Thatcher eventually kicks the bucket, Liverpool Football Club WILL be expected to observe a minutes silence if we're playing at home that weekend, and the players WILL be expected to wear black armbands to honour her memory, despite her obvious hatred of the city.

Many on here that are having a go at the Celtic lads will be up in arms about how much of a disgrace it is that LFC are having a minutes silence for her. It won't be observed in the ground, there will most probably be a couple of banners 'commemorating' her death and all this opposing of the political norm will draw a backlash from Sky and other media outlets.

I understand that it's totally different comparing Thatcher with millions who lost their lives in service, but the point I'm making is that football clubs should not be forced to buy into a uniform political agenda, regardless of their heritage or beliefs.

The people that did this are pure scum.

The people that did this are pure scum.

They would say the same about the para's in Northern Ireland around 1972!

Just saying like.

They would say the same about the para's in Northern Ireland around 1972!

Just saying like.

For those too young to remember it was ' Bloody Sunday ' Bogside Massacre.

When Thatcher eventually kicks the bucket, Liverpool Football Club WILL be expected to observe a minutes silence if we're playing at home that weekend, and the players WILL be expected to wear black armbands to honour her memory, despite her obvious hatred of the city.

Many on here that are having a go at the Celtic lads will be up in arms about how much of a disgrace it is that LFC are having a minutes silence for her. It won't be observed in the ground, there will most probably be a couple of banners 'commemorating' her death and all this opposing of the political norm will draw a backlash from Sky and other media outlets.

I'm not entirely sure that would 'automatically' result in black armbands to be honest.  Heads of State are one thing but former political leaders and PM's another.

Last former Prime Minister to die during the season was James Callaghan in March 2005.

Following game was against Bolton at home

Politics on a national and international scale like this shouldn't be aired in a football ground. Pro/against war, it is human sacrifice on both sides at the end of the day and Celtic Football Club wanted to show support for the people who risk their lives in battle. I don't care if you support the war or don't, appreciation of their bravery is paramount before condoning their actions.

The people who showed the banner were mindless wankstains who wanted to be controversial - not for being against the wars, but for being so dimwitted in doing that in public at a football stadium they paid to go to to watch their team play football, not a political forum.

Politics on a national and international scale like this shouldn't be aired in a football ground. Pro/against war, it is human sacrifice on both sides at the end of the day and Celtic Football Club wanted to show support for the people who risk their lives in battle. I don't care if you support the war or don't, appreciation of their bravery is paramount before condoning their actions.

The people who showed the banner were mindless wankstains who wanted to be controversial - not for being against the wars, but for being so dimwitted in doing that in public at a football stadium they paid to go to to watch their team play football, not a political forum.

To right Mate, and I for one wear my poppy with pride.

I'm not entirely sure that would 'automatically' result in black armbands to be honest.  Heads of State are one thing but former political leaders and PM's another.

Last former Prime Minister to die during the season was James Callaghan in March 2005.

Following game was against Bolton at home

Possibly, but there weren't discusssions about state funerals and the like before his death, there has been those discussions about Thatcher. Trust me, Murdoch and his mates will be pushing for minutes silences all over the shop and sky will be there to slag off anyone who doesn't conform.

A lot of Celtic fan's family and friends have died due to British forces e.g. Bloody Sunday, Ballymurphy, Aidan Mcanespie and plenty more Is one of the reasons behind it also the Green Brigade are a left-wing antifa ultras group and are anti-war and against the British capitalist imperialist army. I don't think the banners should have been displayed inside the ground, Outside it yes. As everyone is entitle to freedom of speech. Celtic chairman John Reid the former MP is also deeply frowned upon by the Green Brigade as he is seen as a war criminial(Iraq etc another story for another day) and he and the media have really forced this upon Celtic. The AICSC(Association of International Celtic Supporters Clubs) is backing the Green Brigade along with many other Celtic supporters. I'll will post the Green Brigade official statement of this and the AICSC statement also in a bit.

Celtic Supporters Assiciation Statement:

The Celtic Supporters Association after having a number of discussions with the club and our member branches wish to make it clear once again that we believe the Celtic shirt should be used only to promote Celtic Football Club and it’s sponsors.
We believe that this form of bullying people and clubs into wearing the poppy symbol is contrary to what many people believe is a democratic right; to have freedom of choice; freedom of expression, and freedom of speech.
The Celtic Supporters Association is a democratic organisation which act’s in the best interests of their members, we consult with them on all issues and then carry out their wishes to the best of our ability.
We believe that it is not in the best interest of Celtic Football or their fans to have a policy which is clearly divisive, this poppy issue came up two years ago as a direct result of the backlash for the singing of the racist “Famine Song” we have opposed it every year and are glad to hear that this will be the final year of the policy.
At this Sunday’s match versus St Mirren there will be a minutes silence held before the kick off, we would ask once again that if anyone doesn’t want to take part in the silence for whatever reason, then remain outside in silent protest, then make your way into the stadium.

Green Brigade Statement

At half-time during today’s match against Aberdeen we displayed message banners calling for ‘No bloodstained poppys on our hoops’ in protest at the Club’s decision to once again wear the poppy on our shirts during next week’s game at St Mirren (a match our group will not attend because of this decision). This is in support of an appeal by Poppyscotland to all SPL clubs. Poppyscotland describes its role as ‘supporting heroes’ and state that ‘the poppy has become a symbol of remembrance and for the sacrifices made by our Armed Forces’. Our group and many within the Celtic support do not recognise the British Armed Forces as heroes, nor their role in many conflicts as one worthy of our remembrance. Earlier this year, the Saville Report on Bloody Sunday confirmed that 14 unarmed civilians were murdered in Derry in 1972 by the Paratroop Regiment. They were among hundreds killed by the British Army during the most recent phase of conflict in Ireland. More recently, the British Armed Forces have murdered and maimed many thousands more innocent civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan. The poppy remembers not just our grandfathers who fought the Nazis but also those who bombed the Belgrano and brutally occupied the streets of Belfast and Basra. While we recognise the right of individuals to remember their dead and that many within the Celtic support will wear the poppy in memory of family and friends lost in WW2 and other conflicts, we cannot accept the imposition of the poppy onto our shirts.

As far back as April, representatives from the Green Brigade, Celtic Supporters Association and Celtic Trust met with Peter Lawwell to express our united opposition to the Club imposing the poppy on the first team jersey. We also know that the AICSC and many other individual supporters had called on the Club to reverse their position of previous years and take the poppy off the shirt. Following our meeting in April, the Club were contacted on several occasions for further dialogue on the issue but informed us that they were still considering their position and would get back to us. The first any group knew of the decision was after it had been made, and publicly announced. We share the views of the AICSC whose recent statement on the poppy stated that ‘to see the jersey being used as a medium for such a divisive symbol and the message it communicates is deplorable’, and that it showed a complete lack of respect for the support, further highlighted by repeated declarations on the official website of Celtic’s delight to be wearing the poppy and supporting Poppyscotland. It appears rather than leave his politics at the door, chairman John Reid, the former Armed Forces Minister and Secretary of State for Northern Ireland and Defence, has forced his onto the first team jersey.

As you may have noticed at today's game, we mistakenly missed out the 'D' in 'bloodstained'. This happened in the rush to finish two displays for today's game (with our 'Show the SFA the red card' action before the match the other). The real mistake, however, is the Club forcing the poppy onto our shirt.

If it wasn't for the brave soldiers who gave their lives in the World wars, you wouldn't have a Celtic, never mind a Celtic supporters association!

If it wasn't for the brave soldiers who gave their lives in the World wars, you wouldn't have a Celtic, never mind a Celtic supporters association!

I'm not disagreeing with you mate. Theres some great Celtic men/women who have died serving in the forces and God Bless them. I'm just posting the views from some of the Celtic supporters point of view. Would be boring if we agreed all the time eh.

Absolute bunch of horse sh*t that. Every single one of them can go F**k themselves as far as im concerned, bunch of pricks. They could well be speaking F***ing German by now if it wasn't for the brave men and women who played any part in World War 2.

Oh, thanks for taking up my argument TKID - vitez, you make good posts usually but that was absolute crap. You obviously don't understand history very well.

In answering the 2 points JD raised - 1) No, football is meant to be about football. If you can't go to a match without bringing up a totally unrelated agenda, you should give your ticket to someone who wants to go to the match to enjoy it for what it is.
2) Absolutely. A football ground is there for supporters to support a team. It aint a place for political protests, and if people are seen to be protesting and putting the club into controversy, the club has every right to ban them as it is their property. I have every right to tell someone to F**k off from my families home if they are acting disrespectfully in my home, so this is no different.

Its easy to hold protests about armed forces from the comfort of football stadia. Not so easy to fight for a pointless war, way beyond your control.

A lad from my old school year died earlier this year in Helmand. We weren't best friends, but he was a nice guy with a lot to look forward to.

The brave people of the services, their families and friends do not deserve the attention seeking sniping, tarnishing their names at this time of the year, and I would support any ban put in place upon people who use football matches as a platform to spout their bile.

While I don't agree with their views, fair enough they are not attending next weeks game.  A perfectly legitimate way to show your unhappiness.

But last weekend unfurling a banner inside the ground - all it did was tarnish the reputation of Celtic fans.

It wasn't the place to make the protest.

While I don't agree with their views, fair enough they are not attending next weeks game.  A perfectly legitimate way to show your unhappiness.

But last weekend unfurling a banner inside the ground - all it did was tarnish the reputation of Celtic fans.

It wasn't the place to make the protest.

Perfectly fine way to protest. Could have not gone and released a simple statement saying they didn't agree with it, and are not attending because of that view. Wrong view still IMO, but at least they would have been taking a respectable stance.

Instead they made themselves look liked idiots.

Poor effort, Celtic fans. It's now blown all out of proportion and beyond football, it's about saving face.

Sad.

Instead they made themselves look liked idiots.

Just read my own post back. Irony in that line is im calling another group idiots and i don't even grammar check myself - "look liked idiots"

But cos i like to laugh at my own stupidity at times, i can't be ar.sed changing it.

Green Brigade Statement

Earlier this year, the Saville Report on Bloody Sunday confirmed that 14 unarmed civilians were murdered in Derry in 1972 by the Paratroop Regiment. They were among hundreds killed by the British Army during the most recent phase of conflict in Ireland.

I found this excerpt particularly interesting as it gets to the crux of the matter. The real agenda, if you like.

As many of you will know the Celts have a song (also sung by the blueshite by the way - but that's another history lesson); "The Celtic Song" - which is played as the teams take to the pitch - has the following lyrics:

"When you read its history,
It's enough to make your heart grow sad,
God bless them."

Part of that undeniable history is that these Celtic players gave their lives, whilst fighting for their country: Patrick Slavin, Leigh Roose, Donnie McLeod, Archie McMillan, Robert Craig, John McLaughlin and Peter Johnstone.

Back to 'The Green Brigade' statement: Did you know?

* During the 'conflict' in Northern Ireland: 1,543 Roman Catholics, in total, were killed. Of that: the British Army killed 266; Republican paramilitaries killed 381.

* During the 'conflict' in Northern Ireland: 355 Republican paramilitaries, in total, were killed. Of that: the British Army killed 117; Republican paramilitaries killed 164.

* During the 'conflict' in Northern Ireland: 1,921 Civilians, in total, were killed. Of that: the British Army killed 168; Republic paramilitaries killed 713.

source: http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/issues/violence/cts/fay98.htm#tables

The 'Green Brigade's' statement, try as does, will never mask their sectarian agenda in this instance. I know bullshit when I see it. I know sectarianism when I see it. I've lived with it and fought against it day and daily for 40 years - dressing it up as 'political' doesn't wash.

Celtic is a great club, a proud club, with a great history and it has done the right thing by not letting sectarian bigots tarnish it's name.

Some of the very 'fans' who unfurled the banner have sung (and will sing) about knowing "the history" yet; they have sung (and will sing) about the I.R.A. - "It's enough to make your heart grow sad"

Peace.

What a bunch of mealy mouthed F***ing wankers, the poppy represents a tribute to the common soldier who fought and suffered to save his country and it's populace from unimaginable terror.
Whatever connutation the establishment attach to it's significance to promote their obscene agenda is irrelevant, poppy day is purely a way of saluting the fallen and injured who were sent into battle through no choice of their own and did what they were asked to do. Any monies raised is for their benefit although it is never enough.
Consider the sight of the horribly wounded and mentally scarred veterans and compare that to the picture of these F***ing creatures with their repulsive F***ing banner.

I support Celtic's stance in banning the poppy 'protesters' 100% as i think the whole point of the poppy appeal has become clouded in todays mentality regarding just/un-just wars.

The poppy is used simply because it was the first flower to blossom upon the graves of the soldiers we lost in WW1, a war which occurred almost 100 years ago and, to quote Blackadder, would've been far simpler if we'd just stayed at home and shot 50,000 of our men a week.

My great grandfather was killed in the Battle of the Somme, which is why i wear a poppy every year. To remember him even though i never met him. I believe WW1 was an un-just war for us but i believe WW2 was a just and noble campaign.

The morons who're misinterpreting the message of the appeal today by using the Iraq/Afgahnistan campaigns(which i think are just a waste of time and servicemen and women's lives, but then again i'm not in the oil/drug business) are exactly that. Morons.

This type of thing has no place at a football match or stadium and i wholeheartedly agree with the banning.

What about the IRA, ETA and Al-Qaeda?  Don't disrespect them, they're fighting for a cause they believe is correct.  Come on man, it can swing both ways.  The only rational way is to condemn them all - people with guns are cowards and should not be lauded as heroes, they're simply doing somebody else's dirty job.  There's no national or worldwide "thank you to plumbers day (who do the same thing), why are soldiers held in higher regard?", but as long as they conform to your standards though and conduct themselves in a way which doesn't represent a different set of views to your own, then they have a right to freedom of speech or freedom of protest.  Hate to tell you but that's not freedom of speech or protest.
I am surprised at the nature of your comment as it goes against the grain of your usual excellent posts.

Respect is earned, not given.  You might respect them for serving in any given war, I respect the people who try and broker peace talks.  Like you, it could be said I don't give a F**k about the politics but I think we can agree it has no place in sport because sport has a great way of bonding two people who are otherwise on opposite ends of the political spectrum.  I feel the wearing of the poppy breaches that in the first place.

I don't personally support showing up at soldier's funerals with "burn in hell" signs but I respect people's right to do so.  I think it's in poor taste but I also feel that human rights and freedom of speech/protest/press/opinion are more important than offending what the mainstream would consider the social norm.  I want equality for all, if protesting about politics in sport isn't fair game on the grounds of separation of the two, then the same rule should apply to pushing political agendas on sports.  Simple case of what's good for the geese is good for the gander.

Now before you jump on my IRA, ETA, Al-Qaeda comments citing that they kill innocent civilians and use terror to intimidate people, if you think the governments of those involved in ALL wars don't do the same, you're only kidding yourself.  One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.  Condemn neither or condemn them both.

Naivety in the extreme! The organisations you mention use outrage as a tactic to draw attention to their "cause".
The more bloodthirsty and obscene the better because of the global exposure their acts are given and the best way these creatures can achieve their end is by targetting the innocent.

There is absolutly no excuse for politics to be brought into football! The Old Firm "supporters" are brain washed into hating "the other side" and everything about them from the day they are born.
Pathetic!

Being a Heart of Midlothian fan this time of year is one of the most important in the season. It is a time where we remember McCrae's Battalion, where 11 first team players signed up due to the pressure being put on football players at the time, 1914. I believe they were the first to do so. Before they went to the Front they were doing their Army training as well as playing football matches. They even had matches whilst at the Front and never lost...although 7 1st team players did lose at the Somme.

I'm not going to take the moral high ground, at least I hope not, but having been at Tynecastle tonight and you have Celtic fans signing...'You can shove your bloodstained poppies up your ....' and that was before they were even in the ground.

It's disappointing to say the least.

Free speech? Remind how we got that again?

Now I don't know much about the Troubles etc but both Celtic and Rangers have used that as a means and kept it going.

OK, I'm slightly drunk but I hope the above is OK....and I know Heart of Midlothian fans aren't perfect. Anyway, I had a good night!

(ps, see my sig re McCrae's) Excellent book as well! Excellent cairn built at Contalmaison where there is a service on July 1st and I'm sure there will be a few there today.

I should add that it also included players and fans from Hibernian, Falkirk, Raith it wasn't just about Heart of Midlothian.

Even some Hibs fans try and hold our remembrance for these guys against us.

There is absolutly no excuse for politics to be brought into football! The Old Firm "supporters" are brain washed into hating "the other side" and everything about from the day they are born.
Pathetic!

Pathetic is the only description that applies mate, but brainwashed is a little complimentary in that it implies some sort of basic intelligence when in truth these are F***ing idiots of the first order.

I've not read the whole thread and I've tried not to let my own feelings come through in my post regarding this....but one can really only conclude that they are brainwashed.

There's been times when Celtic fans have held up Palestinian flags and Rangers fans have held up Israeli flags...WTF!

In fact there was a Palestinian flag at Tynecastle last night.....why? Is it some anti British thing? They play in Scotland and have a former Defence Secretary as their Chairman......

Personally, I wish they'd both just GTF and play each other every week on some remote island in the South Atlantic.

I've not read the whole thread and I've tried not to let my own feelings come through in my post regarding this....but one can really only conclude that they are brainwashed.

There's been times when Celtic fans have held up Palestinian flags and Rangers fans have held up Israeli flags...WTF!

In fact there was a Palestinian flag at Tynecastle last night.....why? Is it some anti British thing? They play in Scotland and have a former Defence Secretary as their Chairman......

Personally, I wish they'd both just GTF and play each other every week on some remote island in the South Atlantic.

As posted earlier mate F***ing idiots their ignorance is breathtaking.

^ WTF? Pathetic. They are so segregated it's beyond belief.

^ WTF? Pathetic. They are so segregated it's beyond belief.

It is pathetic that their mindset dictates they have to be segregated.
What better sight than fiercely opposing supporters i.e. us and the blue sh*te can mix in the ground untroubled, not as freely now admitted but it does go on.

Just to play devils adovate for a minute, I wonder how Maxi felt during today's game wearing that poppy, seeing as it's for all British servicemen that died in conflicts.

Would that include the Falklands?

Just to play devils adovate for a minute, I wonder how Maxi felt during today's game wearing that poppy, seeing as it's for all British servicemen that died in conflicts.

Would that include the Falklands?

Very Good Point.

Malvinas my arse.

Malvinas my arse.

Missed the point by a country mile.

But Back on topic.

Just to play devils adovate for a minute, I wonder how Maxi felt during today's game wearing that poppy, seeing as it's for all British servicemen that died in conflicts.

Would that include the Falklands?

Yes it would, however I'm sure Maxi would've made his feelings known or objected to it, therefore I can only conclude that he was happy to have the poppy displayed. I'm sure he's also aware of the number of Nazi Party officials that fled to South America inc Argentina.

Anyway, I'll be attending Tynecastle tomorrow seeing as the proper Memorial has been removed thanks to the chaotic trams guff.

Celtic play tomorrow....microphones to silent SKY/ESPN....