4th - realistic prospect or naive dream?

I'm not totally against the idea to sell any underperforming player, as long we are sure the player bad performances aren't only the result of bad tactics from the manager.

I think it's another reason to change the manager soon : we need to know for next summer if some expensive players would better be sold or kept, and as long Roy use tactics unsuited for them we can't be sure.

I know, but we're going back to the media agenda line of "it's a sh*t squad left by Rafa" rather than "13 internationals who played at the world cup and struggling to be motivated or organised by a chameleon of a manager, who, quite frankly shouldn't be anywhere near the job of manager of Liverpool FC.

No mate, I was not blaming Rafa for the poor squad, I was blaming us selling good players and replacing them with lesser players, making poor buys. You buy too many average players you get average results no matter who is manager. Roy has done poorly , I am not trying to defend him. I am sure another manager would have done better, but I don't think ANY manager could have got us challenging for the title with this squad. 13 internationals or not. How many internationals did Houllier leave? Didn't mean he left a great squad did it ?   

I think you should try again mate. I said .....  Which is why I AM TOTALLY AGAINST THE IDEA OF SELLING TORRES OR REINA

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It's a disgrace that we're even talking about this. Can we finish fourth? Of course we can, we can still win the League and that's what we should be aiming for not coming a poxy fourth.

Again quoting figures without context, though for me Babel is the only one you could say was in the top class bracket price wise.  £5-10m is the average price for average players nowadays.  That's the market we dealt in, because that was our price range.

Babel was highly rated and sought after through out europe.
As I said, Dossena looked the dog's bollocks in Italy.
Riera & Pennant were decidedly average.

Alonso touted around Europe after two decidedly mediocre seasons in which his prospective replacement, Barry, had definitely outperformed Alonso, unless you're extremely biased.  Christ we had no takers forhim at £12m. 

So far as well, both Benayoun & Cole have been decidedly poor &/or injured. Let's ignore your customary dig at he who shan't be named.

Masch has said a lot of things. 

We will buy another Keane or Diouf at some point, even Kenny brought his share of duds.

Doesn't matter why a manager buys a player, the ONLY thing that matters is whether that player is a success or not. Dossena could have been the best full back in the F***ing world for all I care, at Liverpool he was crap. End of story. Not trying to start another Rafa riot mate, just trying to express my opinion on the squad, our chances of top 4 and the reasons why we arn't challenging for the title.

   

It's a disgrace that we're even talking about this. Can we finish fourth? Of course we can, we can still win the League and that's what we should be aiming for not coming a poxy fourth.

It's not a disgrace, because unfortunately with Roy in charge we won't even make the top six, so saying we can win the league sounds like a fantasy.

Give me the King, then maybe I'll believe.

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No edit required mate. Which is why I AM TOTALLY AGAINST THE IDEA OF SELLING TORRES OR REINA, because while we could indeed use that money to "strengthen the squad" there is a good chance that most of the money would be wasted on players who are just not good enough.

I am totally against selling TORRES AND REINA.

Not sure if I can make it any clearer than that.

No edit required mate. Which is why I AM TOTALLY AGAINST THE IDEA OF SELLING TORRES OR REINA, because while we could indeed use that money to "strengthen the squad" there is a good chance that most of the money would be wasted on players who are just not good enough.

I am totally against selling TORRES AND REINA.

Not sure if I can make it any clearer than that.

Nah, it did, it didn't read like that in bold before I went for a wash, probably why I got mixed up.

Wouldn't matter if we sold them or not, with softarse in charge they will be off sooner or later.

Doesn't matter why a manager buys a player, the ONLY thing that matters is whether that player is a success or not. Dossena could have been the best full back in the F***ing world for all I care, at Liverpool he was crap. End of story. Not trying to start another Rafa riot mate, just trying to express my opinion on the squad, our chances of top 4 and the reasons why we arn't challenging for the title.

  

Of course it matters why.  The how, the who - it all matters, we not challenging for fourth because some of our better players, this season & last, have failed to perform for either Rafa or Roy, though have definitively been far worse under Hodgson.  Managers get the flack for this, as they should, but it doesn't make players immune to criticism.  Add to that the fact we've been having to make do with signing replacement players who are squad players at best, BECAUSE that's the market we can AFFORD to deal in.

It's not a disgrace, because unfortunately with Roy in charge we won't even make the top six, so saying we can win the league sounds like a fantasy.

Give me the King, then maybe I'll believe.

Nah mate, it is a disgrace that Liverpool Football Club is talking about coming fourth as a "dream". We should still be aiming for the League.

Nah mate, it is a disgrace that Liverpool Football Club is talking about coming fourth as a "dream". We should still be aiming for the League.

But wasn't Trabzonspur a famous night?

Which is why I want Roy gone, let us F***ing dream properly again!!

This aint no dream its a nightmare!!

Of course it matters why.  The how, the who - it all matters, we not challenging for fourth because some of our better players, this season & last, have failed to perform for either Rafa or Roy, though have definitively been far worse under Hodgson.  Managers get the flack for this, as they should, but it doesn't make players immune to criticism.  Add to that the fact we've been having to make do with signing replacement players who are squad players at best, BECAUSE that's the market we can AFFORD to deal in.

How does it matter ? Does a manager deliberately choose to buy a bad player? They always have a reason for choosing player. I am sure when Houllier bought Diouf and Diao he thought they would be good signings. Its what they do once they are at the club what matters not what they did anywhere else.

We are where we are because we sold good players and replaced them with poorer ones, we have gaps in the squad where we are having to make do and mend. A good manager could have improved on Roy ....but even a great manager couldn't have got us challenging for the title this year without improving the squad. Last season I believed that with the right manager we could win the league within two years, but he would have had to spend money to do so. Doesn't matter if it was Rafa or Jesus Christ, they would have to replace the good players we have sold to even have a chance, to replace some of our poorer players as well to turn that chance into a likelyhood.

 

 

How does it matter ? Does a manager deliberately choose to buy a bad player? They always have a reason for choosing player. I am sure when Houllier bought Diouf and Diao he thought they would be good signings. Its what they do once they are at the club what matters not what they did anywhere else.

We are where we are because we sold good players and replaced them with poorer ones, we have gaps in the squad where we are having to make do and mend. A good manager could have improved on Roy ....but even a great manager couldn't have got us challenging for the title this year without improving the squad. Last season I believed that with the right manager we could win the league within two years, but he would have had to spend money to do so. Doesn't matter if it was Rafa or Jesus Christ, they would have to replace the good players we have sold to even have a chance, to replace some of our poorer players as well to turn that chance into a likelyhood.

 

 

As I said, labeling signings as bad with hindsight is easy, any fool can do that.  That's why it matters why a player was signed - is it a stop gap signing, a signing for the future, a best we can afford signing.  It all matters, nothing has any value if not placed in context.

Cant see it happening at all, too far behind and a poor manager.

A couple of good signings would probably push us closer but still wont be enough.

Naive dream, dont see things changing anytime soon so very doubt the league standings will change to much either.

One positive thing is that even though we´ve had the worst start in several decades we´re only 11 points off with a game in hand. Still think something drastic has to change though for us to have a chance in my opinion and cant see anything happening until the summer so I cant see us ending up with champs league next year.

Sorry times.

As I said, labeling signings as bad with hindsight is easy, any fool can do that.  That's why it matters why a player was signed - is it a stop gap signing, a signing for the future, a best we can afford signing.  It all matters, nothing has any value if not placed in context.

I can say I was totally against signing Keene before we signed him. Predicted he would fail, not because he was a bad player, but because I believed he wasn't the player Liverpool needed. Does that make Keene a bad signing? No because you can only say it was a bad signing with hindsight.

I agree the hard part is making good signings....... which is why we have struggled because we have made too few good ones and too many bad ones. Money makes it much easier as its more likely that a top player with one club will adapt and become a top player at another. The hard part is finding the hidden gems not the World class stars. WE HAVE FAILED. The only way we are going to improve is accepting our failings and doing better. All the excuses in the world will not turn Dossena into a top prem player, so we have to learn from our mistakes. You don't sell your best players....... EVER. Like with managers you don't replace them unless or until you have found someone better.       

Not really a possibility now. Top 5 are to strong. City will be strengthening in the Window, Spurs looking to bring one or two in, Scummers come on strong after the Festive period. nothing wrong with Hope but this is blind optimism.

the way results at the top are going, anything is possible. drastic changes are needed tho.

It's a disgrace that we're even talking about this. Can we finish fourth? Of course we can, we can still win the League and that's what we should be aiming for not coming a poxy fourth.

I'm With Billy on this one, we've won the one game thats possibly saved the bloke most of us want rid off ! we're 3pts points better off thats all nothing else has changed, we're still worse off than we were under Rafa but surely no true Reds fan gives up on the highest place achieveable based on the points available !
I NEVER give up on winning anything unless its mathmatically impossible, be that the Title or 4th !
Call me unrealistic if you want to but after just ONE win some people are thinking of us as top four contenders, where's the faith the rest of the season ?

Very true mate, but when money is tight its all the more important to get your buys right. I am pretty sure we could and should have done a lot better than we have over the last few years. Dossena, Aquilani, Keene, Poulson, Konchesky etc etc . There is a lot of money lost just on those, but more to the point and more worrying is the loss of points and opportunities that bad buys bring with them. That is one of the reasons I don't believe in the "NET SALES" arguement. All "net sales" does is hide the problems caused by too many bad buys. Yes we have had to sell to buy, but how many times have we sold because the player just wasn't good enough.

I could take over at Liverpool sell Torres and Gerrard for £60million, spend £40million on crap players and when we plummet down the league say  "what do you expect my "net sales" was minus £20million We need a lot of money pumped into the team to make up for the last few years of famine, but more importantly we need to start investing that money wisely by getting more transfers right than wrong.

Our biggest problem now is that not only do we need the money , but that it is becoming harder and harder to attract the best players. Chelsea and Citeh have the money, the mancs and Madrid have the glamour and Arsenal and Barca play the football. We have the history, but will that be enough ? 

No History will never be enough...truth be said it never was,money talks and sadly even more so...This thread has descended from will we finish 4th (no) to we need to spend...

Indeed we do need to spend and to say the previous regime wasn't given money isn't true is it,it was given and we finished 7th....(and blah blah blah)

I've written a few times about this,only when we start to bring the youth players through will we see any real change,you can spend all you want but it's hollow and we'll just become Chelsea or City and i'll start to think your all little suburban glory hunters who only sing when your winning,lets build from within.....We don't need anyone's millions,get the scouts out and start looking high and low....not speculate on some Dutch wonder kind who's really just had a couple of good games and a good agent...or am i being naive? I wonder how much Wigan would ask for Rodallega and N'zogbia?

Oh yes i forgot to add for those of you who've questioned the players motivation...........I wouldn't need Roy or Kenny to motivate me,if that Shirt or badge can't motivate them or the fact that you don't have to work in a plastics factory or drive around a van for the minimum wage,then nothing will.

No History will never be enough...truth be said it never was,money talks and sadly even more so...This thread has descended from will we finish 4th (no) to we need to spend...

Indeed we do need to spend and to say the previous regime wasn't given money isn't true is it,it was given and we finished 7th....(and blah blah blah)

I've written a few times about this,only when we start to bring the youth players through will we see any real change,you can spend all you want but it's hollow and we'll just become Chelsea or City and i'll start to think your all little suburban glory hunters who only sing when your winning,lets build from within.....We don't need anyone's millions,get the scouts out and start looking high and low....not speculate on some Dutch wonder kind who's really just had a couple of good games and a good agent...or am i being naive? I wonder how much Wigan would ask for Rodallega and N'zogbia?

No money wasn't given that's already been proven a thousand times, they were lying cu*ts, most of the money we shelled out was from other players being sold.

Another big fat Hicks lie perpetuated by F***ing Sky!!

Oh and that last para, who made you King of the Kop, you sound like an Andy Gray apologist.