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      Jordan Henderson Player Thread

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      PurpleMonkey
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6780: Feb 25, 2019 02:21:32 pm
      Not yesterday PM. To my eyes Fab was the one going wide too early or backwards.

      It may be - ultimately - that they are too similar but to be honest I think they were decent yesterday. What we missed was a 10 or Bobby picking the ball up and linking.

      We definitely missed a 10 or a Keita yesterday imo, but should we know by now what type of ball distributor Henderson is?

      Am I wrong to think Henderson is more your conservative distributor that focuses on long balls or more prone to playing balls into wide areas, where as Fabinho is more mixed like your Busquets type distributor?
      Swab
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6781: Feb 25, 2019 02:21:49 pm
      What have I denied? That we usually play with 2 CM/double 6/double pivot? I think it was you who denied this even when I showed you evidence and evidence from your friend, P.Neville good few pages back.

      Anyway, do you think Henderson can distribute like Fabinho if asked to? Both players have played in a 3 and 2 this season, and both distribute from deep differently because they have different levels of technical ability and are different types of players.

      No.

      Again with the lies.
      How old are you?

      Your mate Neville said we were playing a double pivot, so you ran with that.
      We weren't, and we don't, and yet for page after page, you insisted we did.
      Then you took the time to find out what a double pivot was, as opposed to 2 6's, and shut up about it.
      Until now.

      Henderson can indeed distribute like Fabinho.

      This fixation you have on Henderson "not being technical" is horseshit.
      Give it up, you're embarrassing yourself.
      Scotia
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6782: Feb 25, 2019 02:26:09 pm
      We definitely missed a 10 or a Keita yesterday imo, but should we know by now what type of ball distributor Henderson is?

      Am I wrong to think Henderson is more your conservative distributor that focuses on long balls or more prone to playing balls into wide areas, where as Fabinho is more mixed like your Busquets type distributor?

      I don’t see the distinction you do in that regard.

      My principal differentiator at the moment would be Fab’s ability / potential to carry the ball (rather like Matip) yesterday.

      If I’d to criticise the midfield for anything yesterday it would be that we passed from too deep, too early.
      Swab
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6783: Feb 25, 2019 02:29:24 pm
      Excellent defensive stats from Henderson, playing as the lone 6

      https://www.premierleague.com/players/3712/Jordan-Henderson/stats?co=1&se=210
      racerx34
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6784: Feb 25, 2019 02:31:47 pm
      Forced? Perhaps, perhaps not, but it's evidently clear to see when Hendo plays, we use our full backs/wide areas a lot more, where as when Fabinho plays, the distribution is more varied, therefore making us less predictable and more threatening in attack imo.



      Because, in the case of the United game, the team changed from a midfield 3 to a 4-2-2-2.
      Swab
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6785: Feb 25, 2019 02:39:16 pm
      I don’t see the distinction you do in that regard.

      My principal differentiator at the moment would be Fab’s ability / potential to carry the ball (rather like Matip) yesterday.

      If I’d to criticise the midfield for anything yesterday it would be that we passed from too deep, too early.

      Said this at the start of the season.
      He's not doing enough of it yet, but it'll come.
      Swab
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6786: Feb 25, 2019 02:39:57 pm
      Because, in the case of the United game, the team changed from a midfield 3 to a 4-2-2-2.

      Yes, the "Klopp Cock"   :laugh:
      HScRed1
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6787: Feb 25, 2019 02:44:23 pm
      Not yesterday PM. To my eyes Fab was the one going wide too early or backwards.

      It may be - ultimately - that they are too similar but to be honest I think they were decent yesterday. What we missed was a 10 or Bobby picking the ball up and linking.

      Once the Mancs went 451 after their injuries all the space was out wide. So no other options for Fab.

      Henderson is never going to ask for the ball in those tight area’s, Gini could do it but again he is fairly conservative.
      Bobby dropping deep in those congested areas is him basically compensating for our midfielders inability to play in those congested zones.

      HScRed1
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6788: Feb 25, 2019 02:47:09 pm
      I wonder why the defensive General was the one hooked 🤣
      srslfc
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6789: Feb 25, 2019 02:51:57 pm
      I wonder why the defensive General was the one hooked 🤣

      Fitness I suspect.
      RC9
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6790: Feb 25, 2019 02:55:20 pm
      I don't much care to be honest.
      What I am waiting to see is the plan of 3 mids who can all interchange easily and comfortably between the 3 roles, without needing to have 2 sitting.
      It's not quite there yet, but it'll come.

      On top of that, I can't wait to see the best of Keita.
      It's been a difficult season for him, but there's no doubting his quality. He's just found it a bit hard to settle.
      Then we also have Ox coming back.

      It's all about options and mixing and matching to find the best way to break down and beat whoever is in front of us.

      This is true, I am all for us having different options in games as I think that's what sets a winning team apart from the rest of the pack, the ability to adapt game to game and even within games.

      I also share your enthusiasm towards Keita, I love the kid, just hope he stays in the team consistently enough to show us what his really about.  Be interesting to see what happens with Ox and Keita becomes I am not sure we can afford to have both in midfield as we would be exposed defensively, but the threat going forward is mouthwatering. 
      HScRed1
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6791: Feb 25, 2019 02:56:48 pm

      Eh?

      If there is something that Henderson doesn’t lack its fitness.
      srslfc
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6792: Feb 25, 2019 02:58:12 pm
      Eh?

      If there is something that Henderson doesn’t lack its fitness.

      I mean due to the injuries he's had this season.
      Scotia
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6793: Feb 25, 2019 02:58:22 pm
      Once the Mancs went 451 after their injuries all the space was out wide. So no other options for Fab.

      Henderson is never going to ask for the ball in those tight area’s, Gini could do it but again he is fairly conservative.
      Bobby dropping deep in those congested areas is him basically compensating for our midfielders inability to play in those congested zones.



      Or any of the midfield surely......🤔

      My point was only that Fab was most culpable - said elsewhere I don’t blame the midfield yesterday.
      Swab
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6794: Feb 25, 2019 03:03:29 pm
      I mean due to the injuries he's had this season.

      Tactical switch for Shaqiri I think, plus he'd played a really tough game and bossed the midfield against Bayern.

      No doubt Klopp and his staff looked at the metrics when planning subs, although the Firmino injury changed his plans, I expect.
      PurpleMonkey
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6795: Feb 25, 2019 03:03:55 pm
      No.

      Again with the lies.
      How old are you?

      We play variations on a 433.
      Sometimes when we reset or in transition to defense it looks like a double pivot, but it isn't.

      Well, either that's a lie or you don't know what you're seeing, same as with your sudden fascination with a "double pivot" that we don't actually play.

      https://www.whoscored.com/Teams/26/Fixtures/England-Liverpool

      Look at the heat maps (you don't even need to look at that if you watch our games), look at what Klopp said, and watch our games, then you will see a difference when we go from double pivot to 3 midfielders.

      Remember how you saw it as a variation instead of a double 6/double pivot? And you know what, the varation actually happens way after, perhaps in December or January where we either see Wijnaldum or Keita play in the half spaces, but you would predominantly see the 2 other CM players act more as double pivots throughout the match.

      Your mate Neville said we were playing a double pivot, so you ran with that.
      We weren't, and we don't, and yet for page after page, you insisted we did.
      Then you took the time to find out what a double pivot was, as opposed to 2 6's, and shut up about it.

      You know what's funny? Carra called it a double pivot recently, and there are many others who called it a double 6 and then called it a double pivot too. And when I think double pivot, I think 2 CM hub players (whether 6's or 8's ) that can get forward, cover or defend as a pair, and we had that many times this season.

      And for the life of me, I can not find that P.Neville video, but I sure as hell don't think he called it a double pivot, more a double 6!

      This fixation you have on Henderson "not being technical" is horseshit.
      Give it up, you're embarrassing yourself.

      Well, he is not as technical as other CM's, but he is also more technical than other CM players....

      Henderson can indeed distribute like Fabinho.

      What can I say if you think they have the same level of distribution...

      I do have one last question, do you think Hendo can play like Pjanic, Kroos or Busquets if asked to?
      « Last Edit: Feb 25, 2019 03:08:56 pm by PurpleMonkey »
      waltonl4
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6796: Feb 25, 2019 03:04:50 pm
      Sure it has and I appreciate the difference in tactics has got us this far and made us a much more solid team, but it seems to become the only way we can play this season, that is the fear.

      If it doesn't work we continue to persist with it, I am not saying we need to change it up for every game but where a team looks  significantly weakened like United did yesterday I think we can take a more aggressive approach in midfield.


      again for the umpteenth time our way of playing has brought us to the top of the league what it is we have done wrong .Why would a manager think you know what we have been playing the same way all season even though we are top of the league I think I will tweek it a bit and see how that goes.  THE TEAM THAT BROKE ALL RECORDS LAST SEASON IS CHASING US!!!! and yet some think we need to change. the world has gone mad
      HScRed1
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6797: Feb 25, 2019 03:06:02 pm
      Or any of the midfield surely......🤔

      My point was only that Fab was most culpable - said elsewhere I don’t blame the midfield yesterday.

      Yup that’s my point really no midfielders willing to pick up the ball in the areas where a quick turn or drop of the shoulder and the opposition are running backwards.

      Hence the rather predictable passing sideways to fullbacks repeat and rinse. Too easy for a good defence to nullify esp if the front 3 are not in rhythm.
      Swab
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6798: Feb 25, 2019 03:06:38 pm
      This is true, I am all for us having different options in games as I think that's what sets a winning team apart from the rest of the pack, the ability to adapt game to game and even within games.

      I also share your enthusiasm towards Keita, I love the kid, just hope he stays in the team consistently enough to show us what his really about.  Be interesting to see what happens with Ox and Keita becomes I am not sure we can afford to have both in midfield as we would be exposed defensively, but the threat going forward is mouthwatering.

      Regarding Ox and Keita, I think there's a couple of options.
      We can rotate them which imo is most likely, and we can change formation to get both of them on, by resting one of the front 3, and playing a 4222.
      This team is still evolving, and I reckon there's a couple more additions to come, as well as replacing Lallana and Milner at some point.
      racerx34
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6799: Feb 25, 2019 03:07:09 pm
      I think people need to get over the whole "double pivot" thing,
      especially when commentators refer to it instead of saying two deeper mids or two 6s.

      It's come to mean almost anything now because the proper meaning of it has long been tossed
      aside as commentators use it as a footballing "buzz word" to show they know something about the roles.
      Swab
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6800: Feb 25, 2019 03:10:38 pm
      Remember how you saw it as a variation instead of a double 6/double pivot? And you know what, the varation actually happens way after, perhaps in December or January where we either see Wijnaldum or Keita play in the half spaces, but you would predominantly see the 2 other CM players act more as double pivots throughout the match.

      You know what's funny? Carra called it a double pivot recently, and there are many others who called it a double 6 and then called it a double pivot too. And when I think double pivot, I think 2 CM hub players (whether 6's or 8's ) that can get forward, cover or defend as a pair, and we had that many times this season.

      And for the life of me, I can not find that P.Neville video, but I sure as hell don't think he called it a double pivot, more a double 6!

      Well, he is not as technical as other CM's, but he is also more technical than other CM players....

      What can I say if you think they have the same level of distribution...

      More nonsense.

      We play 2 6's with Fabinho, because when he played the lone 6 he got beaten far too easily.


      As a team adds new players, it evolves, it changes and different options come into play.
      When Fabinho is fully settled, no doubt he'll play the lone 6 more often.


      To read you banging on with the usual boring shtick, anyone would think a team only ever played one way.
      Swab
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6801: Feb 25, 2019 03:11:50 pm
      I think people need to get over the whole "double pivot" thing,
      especially when commentators refer to it instead of saying two deeper mids or two 6s.

      It's come to mean almost anything now because the proper meaning of it has long been tossed
      aside as commentators use it as a footballing "buzz word" to show they know something about the roles.

      Exactly.
      It's like when someone has a new hobby and 5 minutes later they're spouting all the jargon to try and sound like an expert.
      racerx34
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6802: Feb 25, 2019 03:14:30 pm
      Exactly.
      It's like when someone has a new hobby and 5 minutes later they're spouting all the jargon to try and sound like an expert.

      If you break it down to roles then Rafa's 4-2-3-1 was probably the perfect example of it but Klopp's formation/team doesn't have one.
      If anything Henderson has played as a pivot at times but I don't think there's a pairing at the club that suits the double.
      Swab
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6803: Feb 25, 2019 03:19:08 pm
      If you break it down to roles then Rafa's 4-2-3-1 was probably the perfect example of it but Klopp's formation/team doesn't have one.
      Maybe in the future with new signings but Henderson hasn't played in the role and I don't think there's a pairing at the club that suits it either.

      I think you're right.
      Alonso and Masch was perhaps the perfect example of a true double pivot, unless you go with a box to box, then it would be Masch and Gerrard.

      I think Klopps plan is to have 3 similarly combative midfielders for some games, where they rotate through the 3 staggered positions.

      The other way would be 2 6's and a runner (Ox, Keita) and then yet another is the Klopp cock.

      The more options we have, the better.
      RC9
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6804: Feb 25, 2019 03:19:27 pm
      again for the umpteenth time our way of playing has brought us to the top of the league what it is we have done wrong .Why would a manager think you know what we have been playing the same way all season even though we are top of the league I think I will tweek it a bit and see how that goes.  THE TEAM THAT BROKE ALL RECORDS LAST SEASON IS CHASING US!!!! and yet some think we need to change. the world has gone mad

      Right, in the last 7 PL games we have drawn three times (with the chance of extending our lead at the top on all 3 occasions) and lost once, meaning out of 7 we have won 3, 3 ffs! If we carry on with the mentality that oh it's got us here so it must be working without addressing our recent slump in form than we will not end up champions.

      Like i have said for the 'umpteenth' time i do not want us to change every game, all i am saying is in games where it is abundantly obvious it isn't working we switch it up.

      Swab
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6805: Feb 25, 2019 03:22:32 pm
      Right, in the last 7 PL games we have drawn three times (with the chance of extending our lead at the top on all 3 occasions) and lost once, meaning out of 7 we have won 3, 3 ffs! If we carry on with the mentality that oh it's got us here so it must be working without addressing our recent slump in form than we will not end up champions.

      Like i have said for the 'umpteenth' time i do not want us to change every game, all i am saying is in games where it is abundantly obvious it isn't working we switch it up.

      Sometimes you have to give credit to the opposition as well.
      United did well to stifle us yesterday, by isolating the front 3 and closing off passing lanes through the middle.
      Shaqiri came on and couldn't really make an impact either, but losing Firmino is what really hurt us.
      Scotia
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6806: Feb 25, 2019 03:26:17 pm
      I think people need to get over the whole "double pivot" thing,
      especially when commentators refer to it instead of saying two deeper mids or two 6s.

      It's come to mean almost anything now because the proper meaning of it has long been tossed
      aside as commentators use it as a footballing "buzz word" to show they know something about the roles.

      Agreed
      PurpleMonkey
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6807: Feb 25, 2019 03:26:20 pm
      I think people need to get over the whole "double pivot" thing,
      especially when commentators refer to it instead of saying two deeper mids or two 6s.

      It's come to mean almost anything now because the proper meaning of it has long been tossed
      aside as commentators use it as a footballing "buzz word" to show they know something about the roles.

      What is the difference between 2 x 6 and a double pivot? The way I see it, they are the same, whether it's to have both to sit or both act more as cover for each other when one attacks/presses, does it really matter what people call it? As long as you understand it is 2 CM players, does it matter?

      When Shaq plays and we have 2 CM, it is more a double 6/double pivot, but when there is a 3rd midfielder like, Wijnaldum or Keita playing in the half space, we will still see a double pivot which can be changed to a 3, and even better, the half space player can act as a 6 forming a double piviot when the other midfielder pushes up.

      RC9
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6808: Feb 25, 2019 03:28:09 pm
      Sometimes you have to give credit to the opposition as well.
      United did well to stifle us yesterday, by isolating the front 3 and closing off passing lanes through the middle.
      Shaqiri came on and couldn't really make an impact either, but losing Firmino is what really hurt us.

      I agree mate, credit to United but Leicester and West Ham didn't really play that well did they.

      I think that the Shaqiri sub should have really come earlier in the game and probably for Firmino instead. Yes we missed Bobby, his the nucleus of our front three. I also think Trent was a massive miss, especially with you explaining how the full backs aim to overload areas upfield, I think having him in, instead of Milner is even more of a miss with this in mind.

      Back to Henderson, I think it comes down to consistency also, if he plays as he did against Bayern I would have nothing but praise for the lad, he was turning and first thought was to move it forward, played a couple lovely balls over the top.
      racerx34
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6809: Feb 25, 2019 03:29:24 pm
      What is the difference between 2 x 6 and a double pivot? The way I see it, they are the same, whether it's to have both to sit or both act more as cover for each other when one attacks/presses, does it really matter what people call it? As long as you understand it is 2 CM players, does it matter?

      When Shaq plays and we have 2 CM, it is more a double 6/double pivot, but when there is a 3rd midfielder like, Wijnaldum or Keita playing in the half space, we will still see a double pivot which can be changed to a 3, and even better, the half space player can act as a 6 forming a double piviot when the other midfielder pushes up.



      A proper "double pivot" has a destroyer and a creator in the pairing.
      Rafa's teams at Valencia and Liverpool both had probably the best examples of it.
      2 6s that interchange is not the same as a double pivot.

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