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      Jordan Henderson Player Thread

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      Swab
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6800: Feb 25, 2019 03:10:38 pm
      Remember how you saw it as a variation instead of a double 6/double pivot? And you know what, the varation actually happens way after, perhaps in December or January where we either see Wijnaldum or Keita play in the half spaces, but you would predominantly see the 2 other CM players act more as double pivots throughout the match.

      You know what's funny? Carra called it a double pivot recently, and there are many others who called it a double 6 and then called it a double pivot too. And when I think double pivot, I think 2 CM hub players (whether 6's or 8's ) that can get forward, cover or defend as a pair, and we had that many times this season.

      And for the life of me, I can not find that P.Neville video, but I sure as hell don't think he called it a double pivot, more a double 6!

      Well, he is not as technical as other CM's, but he is also more technical than other CM players....

      What can I say if you think they have the same level of distribution...

      More nonsense.

      We play 2 6's with Fabinho, because when he played the lone 6 he got beaten far too easily.


      As a team adds new players, it evolves, it changes and different options come into play.
      When Fabinho is fully settled, no doubt he'll play the lone 6 more often.


      To read you banging on with the usual boring shtick, anyone would think a team only ever played one way.
      Swab
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6801: Feb 25, 2019 03:11:50 pm
      I think people need to get over the whole "double pivot" thing,
      especially when commentators refer to it instead of saying two deeper mids or two 6s.

      It's come to mean almost anything now because the proper meaning of it has long been tossed
      aside as commentators use it as a footballing "buzz word" to show they know something about the roles.

      Exactly.
      It's like when someone has a new hobby and 5 minutes later they're spouting all the jargon to try and sound like an expert.
      racerx34
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6802: Feb 25, 2019 03:14:30 pm
      Exactly.
      It's like when someone has a new hobby and 5 minutes later they're spouting all the jargon to try and sound like an expert.

      If you break it down to roles then Rafa's 4-2-3-1 was probably the perfect example of it but Klopp's formation/team doesn't have one.
      If anything Henderson has played as a pivot at times but I don't think there's a pairing at the club that suits the double.
      Swab
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6803: Feb 25, 2019 03:19:08 pm
      If you break it down to roles then Rafa's 4-2-3-1 was probably the perfect example of it but Klopp's formation/team doesn't have one.
      Maybe in the future with new signings but Henderson hasn't played in the role and I don't think there's a pairing at the club that suits it either.

      I think you're right.
      Alonso and Masch was perhaps the perfect example of a true double pivot, unless you go with a box to box, then it would be Masch and Gerrard.

      I think Klopps plan is to have 3 similarly combative midfielders for some games, where they rotate through the 3 staggered positions.

      The other way would be 2 6's and a runner (Ox, Keita) and then yet another is the Klopp cock.

      The more options we have, the better.
      RC9
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6804: Feb 25, 2019 03:19:27 pm
      again for the umpteenth time our way of playing has brought us to the top of the league what it is we have done wrong .Why would a manager think you know what we have been playing the same way all season even though we are top of the league I think I will tweek it a bit and see how that goes.  THE TEAM THAT BROKE ALL RECORDS LAST SEASON IS CHASING US!!!! and yet some think we need to change. the world has gone mad

      Right, in the last 7 PL games we have drawn three times (with the chance of extending our lead at the top on all 3 occasions) and lost once, meaning out of 7 we have won 3, 3 ffs! If we carry on with the mentality that oh it's got us here so it must be working without addressing our recent slump in form than we will not end up champions.

      Like i have said for the 'umpteenth' time i do not want us to change every game, all i am saying is in games where it is abundantly obvious it isn't working we switch it up.

      Swab
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6805: Feb 25, 2019 03:22:32 pm
      Right, in the last 7 PL games we have drawn three times (with the chance of extending our lead at the top on all 3 occasions) and lost once, meaning out of 7 we have won 3, 3 ffs! If we carry on with the mentality that oh it's got us here so it must be working without addressing our recent slump in form than we will not end up champions.

      Like i have said for the 'umpteenth' time i do not want us to change every game, all i am saying is in games where it is abundantly obvious it isn't working we switch it up.

      Sometimes you have to give credit to the opposition as well.
      United did well to stifle us yesterday, by isolating the front 3 and closing off passing lanes through the middle.
      Shaqiri came on and couldn't really make an impact either, but losing Firmino is what really hurt us.
      Scotia
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6806: Feb 25, 2019 03:26:17 pm
      I think people need to get over the whole "double pivot" thing,
      especially when commentators refer to it instead of saying two deeper mids or two 6s.

      It's come to mean almost anything now because the proper meaning of it has long been tossed
      aside as commentators use it as a footballing "buzz word" to show they know something about the roles.

      Agreed
      PurpleMonkey
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6807: Feb 25, 2019 03:26:20 pm
      I think people need to get over the whole "double pivot" thing,
      especially when commentators refer to it instead of saying two deeper mids or two 6s.

      It's come to mean almost anything now because the proper meaning of it has long been tossed
      aside as commentators use it as a footballing "buzz word" to show they know something about the roles.

      What is the difference between 2 x 6 and a double pivot? The way I see it, they are the same, whether it's to have both to sit or both act more as cover for each other when one attacks/presses, does it really matter what people call it? As long as you understand it is 2 CM players, does it matter?

      When Shaq plays and we have 2 CM, it is more a double 6/double pivot, but when there is a 3rd midfielder like, Wijnaldum or Keita playing in the half space, we will still see a double pivot which can be changed to a 3, and even better, the half space player can act as a 6 forming a double piviot when the other midfielder pushes up.

      RC9
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6808: Feb 25, 2019 03:28:09 pm
      Sometimes you have to give credit to the opposition as well.
      United did well to stifle us yesterday, by isolating the front 3 and closing off passing lanes through the middle.
      Shaqiri came on and couldn't really make an impact either, but losing Firmino is what really hurt us.

      I agree mate, credit to United but Leicester and West Ham didn't really play that well did they.

      I think that the Shaqiri sub should have really come earlier in the game and probably for Firmino instead. Yes we missed Bobby, his the nucleus of our front three. I also think Trent was a massive miss, especially with you explaining how the full backs aim to overload areas upfield, I think having him in, instead of Milner is even more of a miss with this in mind.

      Back to Henderson, I think it comes down to consistency also, if he plays as he did against Bayern I would have nothing but praise for the lad, he was turning and first thought was to move it forward, played a couple lovely balls over the top.
      racerx34
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6809: Feb 25, 2019 03:29:24 pm
      What is the difference between 2 x 6 and a double pivot? The way I see it, they are the same, whether it's to have both to sit or both act more as cover for each other when one attacks/presses, does it really matter what people call it? As long as you understand it is 2 CM players, does it matter?

      When Shaq plays and we have 2 CM, it is more a double 6/double pivot, but when there is a 3rd midfielder like, Wijnaldum or Keita playing in the half space, we will still see a double pivot which can be changed to a 3, and even better, the half space player can act as a 6 forming a double piviot when the other midfielder pushes up.



      A proper "double pivot" has a destroyer and a creator in the pairing.
      Rafa's teams at Valencia and Liverpool both had probably the best examples of it.
      2 6s that interchange is not the same as a double pivot.
      Swab
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6810: Feb 25, 2019 03:35:13 pm
      What is the difference between 2 x 6 and a double pivot? The way I see it, they are the same, whether it's to have both to sit or both act more as cover for each other when one attacks/presses, does it really matter what people call it? As long as you understand it is 2 CM players, does it matter?

      When Shaq plays and we have 2 CM, it is more a double 6/double pivot, but when there is a 3rd midfielder like, Wijnaldum or Keita playing in the half space, we will still see a double pivot which can be changed to a 3, and even better, the half space player can act as a 6 forming a double piviot when the other midfielder pushes up.

      2 6's is a defensive posture to primarily cover fullbacks.

      A double pivot is a sitter and a DLP or box to box.

      Then we have the volante, which is Henderson as the lone 6.

      You could possibly make a case for Henderson and Wijnaldum being a double volante, but I think that's stretching it.

      The difference is between an attack minded posture and a more defensively solid one.

      They don't mean the same thing at all.
      racerx34
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6811: Feb 25, 2019 03:37:12 pm
      2 6's is a defensive posture to primarily cover fullbacks.

      A double pivot is a sitter and a DLP or box to box.

      Then we have the volante, which is Henderson as the lone 6.

      You could possibly make a case for Henderson and Wijnaldum being a double volante, but I think that's stretching it.

      The difference is between an attack minded posture and a more defensively solid one.

      They don't mean the same thing at all.

      I thinks it's fair to say Henderson has played as volante, albeit one that's limited in what he offers the role.
      Swab
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6812: Feb 25, 2019 03:40:43 pm
      I agree mate, credit to United but Leicester and West Ham didn't really play that well did they.

      I think that the Shaqiri sub should have really come earlier in the game and probably for Firmino instead. Yes we missed Bobby, his the nucleus of our front three. I also think Trent was a massive miss, especially with you explaining how the full backs aim to overload areas upfield, I think having him in, instead of Milner is even more of a miss with this in mind.

      Back to Henderson, I think it comes down to consistency also, if he plays as he did against Bayern I would have nothing but praise for the lad, he was turning and first thought was to move it forward, played a couple lovely balls over the top.

      Don't forget instructions from the manager as well.
      The little balls over the top were clearly an instruction, so we could push Bayern deeper, and THEN create overloads.

      Usually, we see Henderson playing it long to the fullbacks.

      People seem to forget that the lads play to instructions.
      If Klopp wants the fulcrum of attack to be wide, that's where it goes, if he wants to push teams deeper, it's passes over the tope, when we want to draw an opponent out, we drop back, pass it around a bit then pass into the spaces left by the opposition pressers.
      Creating space is a big thing, and yes, Hendersons passes to the side and back do that by drawing the opposition out.
      It's basically re-setting to go again with the sapce created.
      All it takes is one opposition player not getting back quickly enough after pressing, and it can create a chance.
      Swab
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6813: Feb 25, 2019 03:42:59 pm
      I thinks it's fair to say Henderson has played as volante, albeit one that's limited in what he offers the role.

      Maybe, maybe not.
      It's clear that Klopp wants his focus to be on getting the ball wide as often as possible.
      It's why we see that half turn, and shift when a pass isn't on, on one flank.

      For me, it's Hendersons job to dictate the pace and direction of attack. (hence Volante)
      It's the job of players further up to create the chances.
      RC9
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6814: Feb 25, 2019 03:43:33 pm
      Don't forget instructions from the manager as well.
      The little balls over the top were clearly an instruction, so we could push Bayern deeper, and THEN create overloads.

      Usually, we see Henderson playing it long to the fullbacks.

      People seem to forget that the lads play to instructions.
      If Klopp wants the fulcrum of attack to be wide, that's where it goes, if he wants to push teams deeper, it's passes over the tope, when we want to draw an opponent out, we drop back, pass it around a bit then pass into the spaces left by the opposition pressers.
      Creating space is a big thing, and yes, Hendersons passes to the side and back do that by drawing the opposition out.
      It's basically re-setting to go again with the sapce created.
      All it takes is one opposition player not getting back quickly enough after pressing, and it can create a chance.

      That's a fair point, guess it is just me being greedy and wanting to see more exciting football from Hendo, because that performance he put in against Bayern was probably his best this season IMO and going from that to the underwhelming performance against UTD (albeit the rest of the team was underwhelming) just sucks.
      Swab
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6815: Feb 25, 2019 03:48:08 pm
      That's a fair point, guess it is just me being greedy and wanting to see more exciting football from Hendo, because that performance he put in against Bayern was probably his best this season IMO and going from that to the underwhelming performance against UTD (albeit the rest of the team was underwhelming) just sucks.

      Different teams, different roles for players is all.

      Against Bayern, we created a little pocket for Henderson to operate in so that he was "quarterbacking".

      Against utd, he played further up, not as a playmaker primarily, but to disrupt, and regain possession high up the pitch, plus support the forwards.
      He played a couple of lovely little passes to get us in behind, but utd were sat deep and packed the defensive third, so when we lost our rhythm after the injury disruptions we couldn't find the same spaces.
      racerx34
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6816: Feb 25, 2019 03:49:02 pm
      Maybe, maybe not.
      It's clear that Klopp wants his focus to be on getting the ball wide as often as possible.
      It's why we see that half turn, and shift when a pass isn't on, on one flank.

      For me, it's Hendersons job to dictate the pace and direction of attack. (hence Volante)
      It's the job of players further up to create the chances.

      Is that by design or purely as a consequence of losing Ox in the centre and not getting Fekir in the Summer.
      RC9
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6817: Feb 25, 2019 03:55:19 pm
      Different teams, different roles for players is all.

      Against Bayern, we created a little pocket for Henderson to operate in so that he was "quarterbacking".

      Against utd, he played further up, not as a playmaker primarily, but to disrupt, and regain possession high up the pitch, plus support the forwards.
      He played a couple of lovely little passes to get us in behind, but utd were sat deep and packed the defensive third, so when we lost our rhythm after the injury disruptions we couldn't find the same spaces.

      I prefer the style of play we adopted against Bayern, in that first half we created a lot of good chances but at the same time we did look vulnerable on the break, so I see the pros and cons of both.

      Swab
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6818: Feb 25, 2019 03:56:36 pm
      Is that by design or purely as a consequence of losing Ox in the centre and not getting Fekir in the Summer.

      Maybe it's a mixture of both.
      I think Klopp likes the wide attacks with the FB's because it's easier to create overloads in those area's.
      However, a good runner like Ox, can break the lines and drag the opposition into places they don't want to be.
      When Ox hit his stride last season, we played a very good mixture of the 2 attacking styles. I think the lack of that runner has limited it a bit.
      We saw Henderson do that job in 13/14 season, but Klopp seems to prefer him further back dictating things.

      That's the key for me in football; making the opposition play in spaces they don't want to.
      Scotia
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6819: Feb 25, 2019 03:59:25 pm
      I think the key thing is that we have a lot of midfield options now - arguably more than most in Europe.

      Especially when Ox is available.

      What we lack is a genuine no.10 or playmaker so there are gonna be games when we can look sterile.

      Worth remembering there were plenty of those when a Coutinho and even Stevie / Xabi / Masch were here too.
      racerx34
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6820: Feb 25, 2019 04:00:42 pm
      Maybe it's a mixture of both.
      I think Klopp likes the wide attacks with the FB's because it's easier to create overloads in those area's.
      However, a good runner like Ox, can break the lines and drag the opposition into places they don't want to be.
      When Ox hit his stride last season, we played a very good mixture of the 2 attacking styles. I think the lack of that runner has limited it a bit.
      We saw Henderson do that job in 13/14 season, but Klopp seems to prefer him further back dictating things.

      That's the key for me in football; making the opposition play in spaces they don't want to.

      I think without the runner the opposition is quite happy to sit deep and let midfielders have the ball.
      With Coutinho and Ox, for different reasons, the opposition had to push up more to cover the danger from midfield.
      Even if Henderson operated as the 8 I think the team would need a different attacking option in there.
      He'd probably give plenty of possession recovery high up the pitch but would still need to offload to someone else.
      « Last Edit: Feb 25, 2019 04:13:30 pm by racerx34 »
      Swab
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6821: Feb 25, 2019 04:05:07 pm
      I think without the runner the opposition is quite happy to sit deep and let midfielders have the ball.
      With Coutinho and Ox, for different reasons, the opposition had to push up more to cover the danger from midfield.
      Even if Henderson operated as the 8 I think the team would need a different attacking option in there.
      He'd probably give plenty of possession recovery high up the pitch but would still need to offload to someone else.

      Fair points, but I'd just say that Hendersons short game is very underrated, considering what we have seen from him when he has played further up.
      He has a lot more vision and awareness than he is given credit for.

      Saying that, I'd have no issue with a #10 type other than Firmino being a bit further up.
      If nothing else, it would give the opposition a focus other than Firmino in the middle.
      « Last Edit: Feb 25, 2019 04:13:39 pm by racerx34 »
      Swab
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6822: Feb 25, 2019 04:07:40 pm
      I think the key thing is that we have a lot of midfield options now - arguably more than most in Europe.

      Especially when Ox is available.

      What we lack is a genuine no.10 or playmaker so there are gonna be games when we can look sterile.

      Worth remembering there were plenty of those when a Coutinho and even Stevie / Xabi / Masch were here too.

      Rather than a Firmino 9.5, as a bit of a traditionalist, I would like to see us with a proper 10, but that would mean shifting things around if we want to keep the attacker/defender balance.
      Maybe go to the old system where if one FB pushed up, the other stays deep, giving a back 3 with a 6 in front.
      Swab
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6823: Feb 25, 2019 04:09:59 pm
      Will pick this up later, I'm being bollocked for spending too much time on the interweb and neglecting my jobs.

      Good discussion lads, and given me some points to ponder.
      Thanks :)
      HScRed1
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6824: Feb 25, 2019 04:13:36 pm
      A proper "double pivot" has a destroyer and a creator in the pairing.
      Rafa's teams at Valencia and Liverpool both had probably the best examples of it.
      2 6s that interchange is not the same as a double pivot.

      So how would you describe the Kroos and Modric double pivot.

      I don’t think there is a “proper” definition of a double pivot just variations of two midfielders who shield the back 4.

      Klopp has always tended to play with a sitter and a runner, at Dortmund Bender was the sitter and Gundogen the runner.

      At LFC it has been similar with Gini as the runner alongside Henderson but it now seems like Fab is being eased into the sitting role, will be interesting to see moving forward if Hendo becomes the back up to Fab.

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