Trending Topics

      Next match: LFC v Spurs [Champions League] Sat 1st Jun @ 8:00 pm
      Estadio Metropolitano, Madrid

      Today is the 21st of May and on this date LFC's match record is P7 W3 D1 L3

      Jordan Henderson Player Thread

      Read 346332 times
      0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
      PurpleMonkey
      • Forum Legend - Dalglish
      • *****

      • 9,808 posts | 1882 
      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6825: Feb 25, 2019 04:42:50 pm
      A proper "double pivot" has a destroyer and a creator in the pairing.
      Rafa's teams at Valencia and Liverpool both had probably the best examples of it.
      2 6s that interchange is not the same as a double pivot.

      I get what you are saying and can see why the double 6 differs to a double pivot for you, but I can also understand why pundits call it a double pivot because our 2 CM's have also acted as a double pivot, but if you dont pigeonhole the interchanging to 2x 6's, wouldn't you see it as a more a flexible double pivot?

      2 6's is a defensive posture to primarily cover fullbacks.

      A double pivot is a sitter and a DLP or box to box.


      Then we have the volante, which is Henderson as the lone 6.

      You could possibly make a case for Henderson and Wijnaldum being a double volante, but I think that's stretching it.

      The difference is between an attack minded posture and a more defensively solid one.

      They don't mean the same thing at all.

      But have we not seen that from our CM players when in the double 6 ? So essentially, it can be considered a double 6 or a double pivot? We have seen that in Wijnaldum and Fabinho where one has played a sitter and the other in an attacking role, vice versa.

      Is the double 6 really that much different from a double pivot? I don't see it.
      « Last Edit: Feb 25, 2019 05:10:30 pm by PurpleMonkey »
      PurpleMonkey
      • Forum Legend - Dalglish
      • *****

      • 9,808 posts | 1882 
      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6826: Feb 25, 2019 04:47:10 pm
      So how would you describe the Kroos and Modric double pivot.

      I don’t think there is a “proper” definition of a double pivot just variations of two midfielders who shield the back 4.

      Klopp has always tended to play with a sitter and a runner, at Dortmund Bender was the sitter and Gundogen the runner.

      At LFC it has been similar with Gini as the runner alongside Henderson but it now seems like Fab is being eased into the sitting role, will be interesting to see moving forward if Hendo becomes the back up to Fab.



      I think using double 6 or double pivot isn't wrong hence why you see so many of these experts use it.

      When we play with 2 midfielders or a 3rd in the half space (that can drop in to make a 3rd or act as a double 6 if nessassary), our midfield 2 can pretty much play the roles of a double pivot if needs be... which is essentially is a double 6?
      Scotia
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • *****
      • 8,413 posts | 2441 
      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6827: Feb 25, 2019 05:05:36 pm
      So how would you describe the Kroos and Modric double pivot.

      I don’t think there is a “proper” definition of a double pivot just variations of two midfielders who shield the back 4.

      Klopp has always tended to play with a sitter and a runner, at Dortmund Bender was the sitter and Gundogen the runner.

      At LFC it has been similar with Gini as the runner alongside Henderson but it now seems like Fab is being eased into the sitting role, will be interesting to see moving forward if Hendo becomes the back up to Fab.



      I don’t think it is - in the original sense.

      As Racer says the term has been bastardised now.
      HScRed1
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • *****
      • 14,486 posts | 2997 
      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6828: Feb 25, 2019 05:34:08 pm
      I think using double 6 or double pivot isn't wrong hence why you see so many of these experts use it.

      When we play with 2 midfielders or a 3rd in the half space (that can drop in to make a 3rd or act as a double 6 if nessassary), our midfield 2 can pretty much play the roles of a double pivot if needs be... which is essentially is a double 6?



      Yeah I think people get too caught up in their own description of what a double pivot means to them.

      I mean there is no written definition in the football rules of the exact roles of the two.
      Swab
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
      • *****

      • 11,428 posts | 2272 
      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6829: Feb 25, 2019 06:00:53 pm
      I get what you are saying and can see why the double 6 differs to a double pivot for you, but I can also understand why pundits call it a double pivot because our 2 CM's have also acted as a double pivot, but if you dont pigeonhole the interchanging to 2x 6's, wouldn't you see it as a more a flexible double pivot?

      But have we not seen that from our CM players when in the double 6 ? So essentially, it can be considered a double 6 or a double pivot? We have seen that in Wijnaldum and Fabinho where one has played a sitter and the other in an attacking role, vice versa.

      Is the double 6 really that much different from a double pivot? I don't see it.

      What you're doing here is trying to reinvent a phrase, because you want to be right.

      Calling a bowl a "deep plate" doesn't make it anything but a bowl.

      2 of the most knowledgeable members on the boards, in Racer and Scotia have both explained it, and yet you still feel the need to argue, because you are not interested in learning or understanding, you're only interested in being right.
      There are very few posters here who I take notice of when it comes to football, but Scotia and Racer are 2 of them.
      Their knowledge is second to none, so it might be best to park your ego, and understand what people are saying rather than trying to reinvent it so that you can think you're right.
      This is why I keep saying I'm bored of your shtick.
      PurpleMonkey
      • Forum Legend - Dalglish
      • *****

      • 9,808 posts | 1882 
      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6830: Feb 25, 2019 07:09:19 pm
      What you're doing here is trying to reinvent a phrase, because you want to be right.

      Calling a bowl a "deep plate" doesn't make it anything but a bowl.

      2 of the most knowledgeable members on the boards, in Racer and Scotia have both explained it, and yet you still feel the need to argue, because you are not interested in learning or understanding, you're only interested in being right.
      There are very few posters here who I take notice of when it comes to football, but Scotia and Racer are 2 of them.
      Their knowledge is second to none, so it might be best to park your ego, and understand what people are saying rather than trying to reinvent it so that you can think you're right.
      This is why I keep saying I'm bored of your shtick.

      A proper "double pivot" has a destroyer and a creator in the pairing.
      Rafa's teams at Valencia and Liverpool both had probably the best examples of it.
      2 6s that interchange is not the same as a double pivot.

      2 6's is a defensive posture to primarily cover fullbacks.

      A double pivot is a sitter and a DLP or box to box.

      It is not about being right or wrong, I am trying to understand it from these experts POV (including Carra) as well as yours where they have called it the double pivot.

      Look at your definition of the double pivot, it's basically what we have seen under Klopp (especially when Shaq is played) and as mentioned by HScRed1, it was seen in his Dortmund days where he goes with a destroyer and box-boxer, but with how multi functioning our midfielders are, they can act as both, destroyer and box-boxer as well as 2 sitters.

      What is it that I am missing to not see the significant difference? There have been so many varied partnerships out there that were considered double pivots, from Khedira & Alonso, Essien & Ramires , Modric & Rakitic, Xavi and Xabi, Masch & Alonso, Gerrard & Lampard, Kante & Drinkwater etc etc, but what makes ours so different not to be called a double pivot?
      « Last Edit: Feb 25, 2019 07:27:50 pm by PurpleMonkey »
      Swab
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
      • *****

      • 11,428 posts | 2272 
      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6831: Feb 25, 2019 09:11:10 pm
      It is not about being right or wrong, I am trying to understand it from these experts POV (including Carra) as well as yours where they have called it the double pivot.

      Look at your definition of the double pivot, it's basically what we have seen under Klopp (especially when Shaq is played) and as mentioned by HScRed1, it was seen in his Dortmund days where he goes with a destroyer and box-boxer, but with how multi functioning our midfielders are, they can act as both, destroyer and box-boxer as well as 2 sitters.

      What is it that I am missing to not see the significant difference? There have been so many varied partnerships out there that were considered double pivots, from Khedira & Alonso, Essien & Ramires , Modric & Rakitic, Xavi and Xabi, Masch & Alonso, Gerrard & Lampard, Kante & Drinkwater etc etc, but what makes ours so different not to be called a double pivot?

      As Scotia and Racer said, the definition has been bastardised, it's been dumbed down basically.

      We do not, ever, play with a double pivot, so far.
      We may at some point in the future, but at this time, we do not
      We play with a lone 6 or a double 6.


      You can use google and shoehorn a few more names in that you think sound good, but frankly you're wasting your time.
      This has been explained, and I'm not going to waste any more of my time on it.
      Take it or leave it, if you have a problem understanding it after all that has been posted, it's your issue.
      PurpleMonkey
      • Forum Legend - Dalglish
      • *****

      • 9,808 posts | 1882 
      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6832: Feb 25, 2019 10:31:59 pm
      As Scotia and Racer said, the definition has been bastardised, it's been dumbed down basically.

      We do not, ever, play with a double pivot, so far.
      We may at some point in the future, but at this time, we do not
      We play with a lone 6 or a double 6.


      You can use google and shoehorn a few more names in that you think sound good, but frankly you're wasting your time.
      This has been explained, and I'm not going to waste any more of my time on it.
      Take it or leave it, if you have a problem understanding it after all that has been posted, it's your issue.


      I have read so much sh*t from coachesvoice, Journos mentioning it, watched videos, our matches (vs Arsenal home my most recent is a good example of a double pivot/double 6 imo), other matches and even seen pundits mention the double pivot when talking us, and even on other forums where you get these super stat football geeks like Babayua (or whatever his name is) talk about it. I just haven't seen a definitive answer that differentiates the different between a double 6 and double pivot.... I don't even think I have seen anyone outside this forum mention it's not a double pivot or separate the double 6 from the double pivot.

      Anyway, I have come to a conclusion for now that it's not dumbed down and there are different combos you can have in a double pivot that can also be called a double 6. And I do agree, we are wasting time, especially when I am having to read up and watch videos! I think it's time to move on.

      Shame this wasn't discussed in the midfield forum, maybe the admins can move it there?
      PastorGeek
      • Not Actual Geek
      • Forum Legend - Benitez
      • *****

      • 1,564 posts | 292 
      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6833: Feb 25, 2019 10:44:49 pm
      racerx34
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • *****
      • 31,556 posts | 2324 
      • THE SALT IN THE SOUP
      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6835: Feb 25, 2019 11:26:06 pm
      It is not about being right or wrong, I am trying to understand it from these experts POV (including Carra) as well as yours where they have called it the double pivot.

      Look at your definition of the double pivot, it's basically what we have seen under Klopp (especially when Shaq is played) and as mentioned by HScRed1, it was seen in his Dortmund days where he goes with a destroyer and box-boxer, but with how multi functioning our midfielders are, they can act as both, destroyer and box-boxer as well as 2 sitters.

      What is it that I am missing to not see the significant difference? There have been so many varied partnerships out there that were considered double pivots, from Khedira & Alonso, Essien & Ramires , Modric & Rakitic, Xavi and Xabi, Masch & Alonso, Gerrard & Lampard, Kante & Drinkwater etc etc, but what makes ours so different not to be called a double pivot?

      Gerrard & Lampard. Jaysus.
      A perfect example of two players not to play together in the double pivot.

      We've gone way off topic on this so I'll just finish up.
      Football evolves. What people talk about now is not what it was.
      Volante was effectively the 6. One of the hardest roles in football.
      Very few capable of playing the role. Guardiola, Busquets probably 2 of the best.
      Double pivot then evolves to allow a player that is creative to have more freedom by putting a covering/destroyer beside them.
      The perfect example of that, as I said, was probably Alonso & Mascherano. 
      After that then I think it evolves again as we see more and more defenders with the ability to play out with the ball.
      (Look at Van Dijk & Matip)
      So along that we probably move away from the traditional double pivot and more towards what we are seeing now.
      It's not the double pivot as it was but commentators still use the phrase cause it sounds right.

      Back to Henderson. I don't think he's a fit in either role of a traditional double pivot, but he does a job as a 6 or 8.
      That's probably close enough nowadays for people to say he's playing in a double pivot.
      Will be interesting to see how he features as Keita settles.
      Fabinho and Wijnaldum have nearly nailed themselves on as starters.
      « Last Edit: Feb 26, 2019 12:16:14 am by racerx34 »
      PurpleMonkey
      • Forum Legend - Dalglish
      • *****

      • 9,808 posts | 1882 
      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6836: Feb 26, 2019 02:43:18 am
      We've gone way off topic on this so I'll just finish up.
      Football evolves. What people talk about now is not what it was.
      Volante was effectively the 6. One of the hardest roles in football.
      Very few capable of playing the role. Guardiola, Busquets probably 2 of the best.
      Double pivot then evolves to allow a player that is creative to have more freedom by putting a covering/destroyer beside them.
      The perfect example of that, as I said, was probably Alonso & Mascherano. 
      After that then I think it evolves again as we see more and more defenders with the ability to play out with the ball.
      (Look at Van Dijk & Matip)
      So along that we probably move away from the traditional double pivot and more towards what we are seeing now.
      It's not the double pivot as it was but commentators still use the phrase cause it sounds right.

      Aren't we more or less on the same page? The difference is, you seem to see the double pivot only applying when you have a specialist destroyer and creator? But how much different is that to Wijnaldum & Fabinho, Hendo & Fab and Wijnaldum & Hendo partnerships where one (doesn't matter who) would sit and one would go (become an attacking outlet), effectively giving the same role as your traditional double pivot?

      Maybe the double pivot you see with the midfielders we have are not the familiar specialists you know of, therefore you don't see it as a double pivot , but surely it functions the same as your traditional ones? I have no qualms with it being called a double 6 or a double pivot as both are pretty much the same in my eyes.
      Scotia
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • *****
      • 8,413 posts | 2441 
      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6837: Feb 26, 2019 08:03:55 am
      Aren't we more or less on the same page? The difference is, you seem to see the double pivot only applying when you have a specialist destroyer and creator? But how much different is that to Wijnaldum & Fabinho, Hendo & Fab and Wijnaldum & Hendo partnerships where one (doesn't matter who) would sit and one would go (become an attacking outlet), effectively giving the same role as your traditional double pivot?

      Maybe the double pivot you see with the midfielders we have are not the familiar specialists you know of, therefore you don't see it as a double pivot , but surely it functions the same as your traditional ones? I have no qualms with it being called a double 6 or a double pivot as both are pretty much the same in my eyes.


      Great discussion.

      To summarise and hopefully help......through repeated misuse - the old DP has come to be utilised as a phrase that describes a central midfield two (of more or less any description / style / shape) rather than the original destroyer / playmaker. In part that’s bastardisation of the term and in part it’s that modern football (Sarri aside 🤣) is “systems shmystems” - it’s become much more fluid and sophisticated.

      Jürgen would see the traditional double pivot as restricting and insulting to his players PLUS he knows he has neither an out and out destroyer OR an out and out playmaker.

      It’s the same all over the park tbf. Phil Neal scored plenty but trying to compare his position during play to TAA or Robbo is misleading. The knock on to that is that wingers are now wide forwards and CFs are almost obsolete.

      We have only played with the anything resembling the traditional set-up in very short bursts in the final quarter of matches.

      To answer your question PM - I guess what you’re saying is “can’t I just use it to describe any central midfield pairing?” Truth be told that has become very a la mode.......but (my tuppenceworth) is that by consequence of so many doing so it’s almost redundant as it no longer means anything distinct.

      Coaches Voice etc can (on occasions) be interesting but there a lot of “a little knowledge is a dangerous thing” breeding in there and given a platform.

      Enjoy your day :)

      *NB - all just my take on things.
      racerx34
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • *****
      • 31,556 posts | 2324 
      • THE SALT IN THE SOUP
      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6838: Feb 26, 2019 09:44:53 am
      Aren't we more or less on the same page? The difference is, you seem to see the double pivot only applying when you have a specialist destroyer and creator? But how much different is that to Wijnaldum & Fabinho, Hendo & Fab and Wijnaldum & Hendo partnerships where one (doesn't matter who) would sit and one would go (become an attacking outlet), effectively giving the same role as your traditional double pivot?

      Maybe the double pivot you see with the midfielders we have are not the familiar specialists you know of, therefore you don't see it as a double pivot , but surely it functions the same as your traditional ones? I have no qualms with it being called a double 6 or a double pivot as both are pretty much the same in my eyes.


      Ultimately you can call it what you want.
      The original setup of double pivot involved specialists in the 2 of a 4-2-3-1.
      Klopp doesn't use specialists nor do Liverpool have the players to play a double pivot.
      The pair of a Klopp 2 is more like old school box to box players in a 4-4-2, where one goes and one covers like in the 4-2-2-2.
      But people call it a double pivot anyway.

      Henderson is neither a destroyer or a "Quarter Back"/Deep Lying Playmaker.
      They are the roles involved in the original use of the term double pivot.
      Now, like we've said, it's bastardised to refer to the covering midfielders.

      Liverpool under Klopp don't use specialists so I doubt we'll ever truly use a proper double pivot.
      Closest player we have to being part of that would be Fabinho
      and even then it could be argued that eventually he could be a Volante.

      It's been a good discussion.
      I'll leave it there before I have to warn myself for derailing the topic.
      Swab
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
      • *****

      • 11,428 posts | 2272 
      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6839: Feb 26, 2019 12:26:36 pm
      Good explanations above.

      I completely switched off after reading that Gerrard and Lampard were an example of a "double pivot".

      What they were, was a f**king mess.
      A great example of 2 good players being completely unable to play together, mostly because Lampard could only really play one way.
      HScRed1
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • *****
      • 14,486 posts | 2997 
      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6840: Feb 26, 2019 12:31:45 pm
      Looks like some haven’t moved on since the 90’s when the Spanish sort of pioneered the original idea of a double pivot.

      Face it grandads football has moved on and the 2 players who primarily play in front of the back 4 are and can be called a double pivot.
      Scotia
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • *****
      • 8,413 posts | 2441 
      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6841: Feb 26, 2019 12:34:57 pm
      Looks like some haven’t moved on since the 90’s when the Spanish sort of pioneered the original idea of a double pivot.

      Face it grandads football has moved on and the 2 players who primarily play in front of the back 4 are and can be called a double pivot.

      Hahaha my kids do that......

      “Well that’s what we call it now so it must be right”.....

      Aye ok, now turn your music down and geez peace ;)
      Swab
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
      • *****

      • 11,428 posts | 2272 
      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6842: Feb 26, 2019 12:39:12 pm
      Hahaha my kids do that......

      “Well that’s what we call it now so it must be right”.....

      Aye ok, now turn your music down and geez peace ;)

      F**k that, just take the fuse out of the plugs when they're out.
      Puzzles them no end.
      racerx34
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • *****
      • 31,556 posts | 2324 
      • THE SALT IN THE SOUP
      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6843: Feb 26, 2019 02:32:57 pm
      Looks like some haven’t moved on since the 90’s when the Spanish sort of pioneered the original idea of a double pivot.

      Face it grandads football has moved on and the 2 players who primarily play in front of the back 4 are and can be called a double pivot.

      Which is effectively what we said.
      LFCSTEVE1984
      • Forum Legend - Benitez
      • *****

      • 1,678 posts | 388 
      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6844: Feb 27, 2019 11:22:29 am
      What have I denied? That we usually play with 2 CM/double 6/double pivot? I think it was you who denied this even when I showed you evidence and evidence from your friend, P.Neville good few pages back.

      Anyway, do you think Henderson can distribute like Fabinho if asked to? Both players have played in a 3 and 2 this season, and both distribute from deep differently because they have different levels of technical ability and are different types of players.

      The easiest thing to do is go into the official site and go to the squad page and do the comparison at the bottom.

      You'll get a pretty good idea of how they all compare in defence, attack and general areas of play.
      TheRedPanda
      • Forum Kevin Keegan
      • ***

      • 357 posts | 74 
      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6845: Feb 28, 2019 02:48:49 pm



       :lmao: :lmao:

      bmck
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • *****
      • 5,926 posts | 814 
      • YNWA
      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6846: Mar 01, 2019 11:30:07 pm
      Was thinking Hendo would start against Everton, after having not started vs. Watford. But Jürgen can be hard to predict.
      It's not like Hendo is playing poorly imho, we just have more options than we used to. Which is great.
      Plus Fab's shown he can play the DM and be positive when the chance comes, so shades the starting place for me all things being equal. But having had the midweek game, Hendo must be in with a better chance of a start than usual.
      HScRed1
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • *****
      • 14,486 posts | 2997 
      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6847: Mar 03, 2019 09:13:41 pm
      RC9
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • *****
      • 8,279 posts | 290 
      • Formerly known as Vtorres, Vsuarez, and Vsterling.
      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6848: Mar 03, 2019 09:36:04 pm
      Thought Henderson looked good today in parts, played two beautiful passes and tried to get forward on the right quite a bit.

      Not sure he was in his best position today though, I don't see how him and Fabinho can work in the same three but nevertheless he played well for me today.
      LFCSTEVE1984
      • Forum Legend - Benitez
      • *****

      • 1,678 posts | 388 
      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6849: Mar 04, 2019 04:34:35 am

      Ouch that's not good is it, can't really defend that can you.

      I don't think he is good enough. I think he stifles our play massively.

      Quick Reply