Jordan Henderson (Liverpool -> Al-Ettifaq (5 months) -> Ajax)

I think this is what splits the fanbase on Henderson. Loyalists who back our players regardless often say this, but the more cynical fans.. I could be talking about myself here.. seem to spot alternatives he could have made. I'm not the only one because I've seen people post screen shots on this forum of a whole range of choices Henderson had.. but instead of taking them he chose some 5 yard sideways pass. This lead onto a debate that, does he see the options and lack the confidence to take them? He's got some awareness but it's more about what is around him in his own half and often seems to not notice options on the other side of the field. I am not saying all the time, but it is a bit too frequent to consider him optimal. Personally I think Klopp is aware of it and he isn't going to publicly berate Henderson for it because it is a smaller issue than what a lot of us make it to be.. Klopp is also too classy to publicly berate. Jorginho is on Alonso level, these are the next level to Henderson. Henderson has these times where he is average then cuts above average for a while then sits back into an average level, he is a safe option. Imagine having a party, not many people like pepperoni pizza for a fravorite, but if you have to order for everybody it is probably the standard option. Henderson is like the pepperoni pizza of Liverpool.

Football isn't black and white so all fans will view things differently and I wouldn't say my view is any more right or wrong than yours mate


Just for a slight comparison  I've just looked on the premier league site

I looked at
Games played
Goals scored
Assists
Through balls (classed as penetrating forward passes)
Accurate long balls
Big chances created (they class as assists that the chances weren't taken)

I've looked at 4 players who I think will give a fair comparison

Henderson
Kante (the vogue dm)
Carrick (a player who's played similar role to Hendo for a long PL career)
Fernandino (the same role in the champions)

Henderson
Games 278
Goals 25
Assists 38
Through balls 115
Accurate long balls 954
Big chances created 38

Kante
Games 106
Goals 3
Assists 6
Through balls 24
Accurate long balls 288
Big chances created 10

Carrick
Games 481
Goals 24
Assists 40
Through balls 94
Accurate long balls 1571
Big chances created 14

Fernandino
Games 165
Goals 17
Assists 12
Through balls 62
Accurate long balls 434
Big chances created 20

I think they're fair comparisons

People would love Kante for example but according to the rules they judge Henderson by they'd tear their hair out at him too

Football isn't black and white so all fans will view things differently and I wouldn't say my view is any more right or wrong than yours mate


Just for a slight comparison  I've just looked on the premier league site

I looked at
Games played
Goals scored
Assists
Through balls (classed as penetrating forward passes)
Accurate long balls
Big chances created (they class as assists that the chances weren't taken)

I've looked at 4 players who I think will give a fair comparison

Henderson
Kante (the vogue dm)
Carrick (a player who's played similar role to Hendo for a long PL career)
Fernandino (the same role in the champions)

Henderson
Games 278
Goals 25
Assists 38
Through balls 115
Accurate long balls 954
Big chances created 38

Kante
Games 106
Goals 3
Assists 6
Through balls 24
Accurate long balls 288
Big chances created 10

Carrick
Games 481
Goals 24
Assists 40
Through balls 94
Accurate long balls 1571
Big chances created 14

Fernandino
Games 165
Goals 17
Assists 12
Through balls 62
Accurate long balls 434
Big chances created 20

I think they're fair comparisons

People would love Kante for example but according to the rules they judge Henderson by they'd tear their hair out at him too

That’s very revealing.

I just can’t get over the fact this guy could be raising the European Cup in 12 days and some feckers will still say.......”imagine how good we’d be with a decent CDM”?

Just pause on that for a second.......raising the European Cup.......

It’s the bipolarity / selectiveness of the argument that does me in too.....

“We want someone more expansive”

Stats prove he IS more expansive.

“Ok I want someone a bit more ‘not Jordan Henderson’ then.......”

Football isn't black and white so all fans will view things differently and I wouldn't say my view is any more right or wrong than yours mate


Just for a slight comparison  I've just looked on the premier league site

I looked at
Games played
Goals scored
Assists
Through balls (classed as penetrating forward passes)
Accurate long balls
Big chances created (they class as assists that the chances weren't taken)

I've looked at 4 players who I think will give a fair comparison

Henderson
Kante (the vogue dm)
Carrick (a player who's played similar role to Hendo for a long PL career)
Fernandino (the same role in the champions)

Henderson
Games 278
Goals 25
Assists 38
Through balls 115
Accurate long balls 954
Big chances created 38

Kante
Games 106
Goals 3
Assists 6
Through balls 24
Accurate long balls 288
Big chances created 10

Carrick
Games 481
Goals 24
Assists 40
Through balls 94
Accurate long balls 1571
Big chances created 14

Fernandino
Games 165
Goals 17
Assists 12
Through balls 62
Accurate long balls 434
Big chances created 20

I think they're fair comparisons

People would love Kante for example but according to the rules they judge Henderson by they'd tear their hair out at him too

Great post mate and insightful as well.

Football isn't black and white so all fans will view things differently and I wouldn't say my view is any more right or wrong than yours mate


Just for a slight comparison  I've just looked on the premier league site

I looked at
Games played
Goals scored
Assists
Through balls (classed as penetrating forward passes)
Accurate long balls
Big chances created (they class as assists that the chances weren't taken)

I've looked at 4 players who I think will give a fair comparison

Henderson
Kante (the vogue dm)
Carrick (a player who's played similar role to Hendo for a long PL career)
Fernandino (the same role in the champions)

Henderson
Games 278
Goals 25
Assists 38
Through balls 115
Accurate long balls 954
Big chances created 38

Kante
Games 106
Goals 3
Assists 6
Through balls 24
Accurate long balls 288
Big chances created 10

Carrick
Games 481
Goals 24
Assists 40
Through balls 94
Accurate long balls 1571
Big chances created 14

Fernandino
Games 165
Goals 17
Assists 12
Through balls 62
Accurate long balls 434
Big chances created 20

I think they're fair comparisons

People would love Kante for example but according to the rules they judge Henderson by they'd tear their hair out at him too

Not sure it’s fair to compare all prem games because wasn’t Henderson playing in a different position to what he has since Klopp came in? Or am I talking sh*t?

Not sure it’s fair to compare all prem games because wasn’t Henderson playing in a different position to what he has since Klopp came in? Or am I talking sh*t?

He was more attacking before Klopp came in, because Gerrard was the one sitting back.

He was more attacking before Klopp came in, because Gerrard was the one sitting back.

Exactly. But still... I’m not a massive fan of Henderson and can’t stand his long floating balls to no where, but he’s been brilliant in the champions league and keeps the energy flowing in midfield.

I have 100% faith in him having a stormer in the final

Exactly. But still... I’m not a massive fan of Henderson and can’t stand his long floating balls to no where, but he’s been brilliant in the champions league and keeps the energy flowing in midfield.

I have 100% faith in him having a stormer in the final

I agree. I’ve never seen him as captain material and never will do, I think he goes missing when it matters most (in a leadership sense), like when Roma were fighting back, he was no where to be seen in a captaincy role.

He’s never been “world class” and he never will be, but he’s certainly a player I’d be more than happy for us to keep. We will struggle to get a full season out of him, think over the last 3 years he’s only played about 50% in total, which isn’t something you can rely on, especially from a captain. But you cant fault his attitude and commitment, in fact offer him a new 5/6 yer deal and I’d bet he would sign it straight away and you need players like him to add depth to the team, come in and do a job and work hard. He’d benefit by not being captain IMO.

He’s like Lucas, never will be the greatest of players, will either be loved or hated, but he’s a good player and an efficient player you know you can trust to put the club before themselves and when it’s the bigger game of our season, or something as big as a CL final, you can bet your house on him busting a gut, giving his all, regardless of whether he makes a mistake or not. But, and a big but, leadership is having a composure that unfortunately, Hendo doesn’t have.

Not sure it’s fair to compare all prem games because wasn’t Henderson playing in a different position to what he has since Klopp came in? Or am I talking sh*t?

No not talking sh*t at all.. it's a fair point

I've looked on the premier league site and they don't break down season by season in terms of the stats used, but I did pick certain stats that would be more relevant to the position.

When he first signed under Kenny he played right mid.. the through ball and long ball stats wouldn't be overly relevant in that position.. he then played more of a number 8 before Klopp arrived before moving to the 6 in the last 3 seasons

If you take the absolute basics of appearances goals and assists for the last 3 seasons against Kante for example

Kante
Appearances 105
Goals 3
Assists 6

Henderson
Appearances 68
Goals 4
Assists 8

Carrick also played more of an 8 than a 6 until his later years as well.

Can we also take into consideration that as we are happy to admit Henderson played as a right mid, a box to box and now a holding mid.
Could you ever see Kante doing that?

As I said I'm not a Henderson fan boy, but I think alot of aspects of life is confirmation bias and not wanting to admit you're wrong with something to save face? Henderson isn't as bad as people make out.. He's in fact a very good player. Could we upgrade? Of course I'd never ever want to think we couldn't with any player.

Recently I was outspoken in terms of Var, saying I'd hate to see it introduced.. um perfectly happy now having reviewed things to admit I'm wrong with that and if it's ironed out it has to come in.

As for if he's a leader? If you see him live you can see he is a leader..
He's been endorsed by numerous Liverpool legends as a leader and they see him day in day out
He's been picked by two Liverpool manager's as leader.. one of who wanted to bomb him out to Fulham as one of his first acts in the job but ultimately saw he wasn't only just a good player but captain material and one who has had 3 years nearly to change him but hasn't.
He's been picked to lead his country by more than one manager

They can't all be wrong

Henderson isn't as bad as people make out.. He's in fact a very good player. Could we upgrade? Of course I'd never ever want to think we couldn't with any player.

Absolutely, but also isn't as good as some make him out to be. He is overrated and underrated.

But I am curious, what are you trying to show with those stats you bought up? That Hendo is the more attacking #6? If so, you are right, you don't even need stats to show that :p But I am not sure if the Hendo detractors are complaining about that?

Jürgen has him doing the job he wants him to do and I also think Jürgen is very happy with him because he is so disciplined.
Lucas suffered early on because he was not the new Steven Gerrard and Jordan suffers from this a bit too. Lets face it there will not be another Stevie but as long as we keep winning and keeping it tight at the back he'll do for me.

Absolutely, but also isn't as good as some make him out to be. He is overrated and underrated.

But I am curious, what are you trying to show with those stats you bought up? That Hendo is the more attacking #6? If so, you are right, you don't even need stats to show that :p But I am not sure if the Hendo detractors are complaining about that?

The point being that complain he simply just passes sideways or back

So yeah I think they are

The point being that complain he simply just passes sideways or back

So yeah I think they are

I think people get annoyed with this passing back and sidewards because he doesn’t have the ability to turn with the ball, often has a heavy and usually requires a couple of touches to bring the ball under control.

So in fairness to him he probably knows this hence why the ball will often go back straight where it came from.

Henderson is a good PL player but just imagine a CM who can instantly turn with the ball at the base of the midfield there wouldn’t be a team who could handle that speed of transition with our front 3.

Overall he has done well in a position he has not played before in his career, he is certainly more disciplined as a 6 than Can but probably not as talented.

The point being that complain he simply just passes sideways or back

So yeah I think they are

I have been complaining about his distribution for years now, and to this day , I still see the same problem, he chooses the safer option more often than not, and he just seems to lack awareness within his proximity when on the ball.

It's not so much the creative aspect that I am complaining about, but finding our midfielders or forwards between the lines, something just as effective as a long ball over the top. It's his decision making on the ball that is average. It feels like he has tunnel vision at times.

Go back to pretty much every game he has played in the deepest role, and you will find that it's either long balls behind the lines or side and back passes. It's just not good enough when we are probably just as good as City, Napoli or Barca at finding those spaces.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUAYYadlQeE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fPDj291PZQ

I think this pretty much sums up how the Hendo dislikers want our deepest lying midfielder to play. Passing between/breaking through the lines, choosing the better options majority of the time etc. As you can see,  you can still play safe by choosing positive options. Have we ever seen Hendo play like this? No, because he doesn't have the attributes to play like this, he is more about directness and fitness.

Is Hendo the wrong player for us? I don't think he is, but he also isn't the perfect #6 for us either imo. We can improve for sure, but he is also capable of being our main #6 for the next couple of seasons or so.

Remember many years ago when Gary Neville was boasted to be the best defender in the league, I watched one United game, because it was the world club cup. All he kept doing was passing back to the keeper and had no vision to pass the ball into the midfield, he thought it was the safe option until one of the opposing strikers intercepted it and kicked it in the net. Was very hilarious, but long before that I said back passes aren't defending. As a defensive player the job is to retrieve the ball at the back and get rid. Playing it back or sideways is not getting rid, it's adding to the danger. Look to the infamous Gerrard slip, there was no reason to play it to Gerrard. Sure he was a great player, but these freak incidents happen and the law of averages states it is more likely to happen if passing it in your own half. The best way to defend is to pass up around up front and if a good chance to score comes, take it. The defence should be seen as a last option not a place to get passing statistics. 

You can’t attack if you don’t have the ball. Henderson is a very safe pair of hands in that regard. 0 individual errors leading to goals this season. Pretty good.

Asking him to ‘get rid’ is crazy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUAYYadlQeE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fPDj291PZQ

I think this pretty much sums up how the Hendo dislikers want our deepest lying midfielder to play. Passing between/breaking through the lines, choosing the better options majority of the time etc. As you can see,  you can still play safe by choosing positive options. Have we ever seen Hendo play like this? No, because he doesn't have the attributes to play like this, he is more about directness and fitness.

Is Hendo the wrong player for us? I don't think he is, but he also isn't the perfect #6 for us either imo. We can improve for sure, but he is also capable of being our main #6 for the next couple of seasons or so.

This sums it up perfectly, because you do need to break through the lines to keep the service going to the forwards. Not seeing that option means a backwards or sideways pass, so we stagnate in midfield. A pass back would mean the forwards have to drop deeper ready for the next attack. Fernandinho can through ball stuff most people can't spot on TV. His awareness is why he is regarded so highly.

You can’t attack if you don’t have the ball. Henderson is a very safe pair of hands in that regard. 0 individual errors leading to goals this season. Pretty good.

Asking him to ‘get rid’ is crazy.

Henderson should not hold onto the ball, he should get it to the attacking midfield as soon as he can.

This sums it up perfectly, because you do need to break through the lines to keep the service going to the forwards. Not seeing that option means a backwards or sideways pass, so we stagnate in midfield. A pass back would mean the forwards have to drop deeper ready for the next attack. Fernandinho can through ball stuff most people can't spot on TV. His awareness is why he is regarded so highly.

Exactly. Not just Fernandinho, but there are many others that does what he does, and what he does is pretty much basic for a #6.

Look at the difference in one of Hendo's strongest passing games;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dc6GCMtdzPA

Night and day, isn't it?

This sums it up perfectly, because you do need to break through the lines to keep the service going to the forwards. Not seeing that option means a backwards or sideways pass, so we stagnate in midfield. A pass back would mean the forwards have to drop deeper ready for the next attack. Fernandinho can through ball stuff most people can't spot on TV. His awareness is why he is regarded so highly.

Not gonna engage on this Ribs - we know we don’t agree

BUT one question - even if you believe it K78’s post earlier today gives lie to your assertion re Fernandinho being more adventurous / productive does it not?

Exactly. Not just Fernandinho, but there are many others that does what he does, and what he does is pretty much basic for a #6.

Look at the difference in one of Hendo's strongest passing games;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dc6GCMtdzPA

Night and day, isn't it?

That pass at 1:05 is pretty much a sideways and backpass in one, where there is an unmarked winger he made no attempt to pass to.

we seldom play through the middle its all about wide men and pace so Jordan being in the centre doesn't have a lot of option but to pass it sideways. Cant say this often enough but Jürgen clearly likes the lad and respects what he does for the team.

Remember many years ago when Gary Neville was boasted to be the best defender in the league, I watched one United game, because it was the world club cup. All he kept doing was passing back to the keeper and had no vision to pass the ball into the midfield, he thought it was the safe option until one of the opposing strikers intercepted it and kicked it in the net. Was very hilarious, but long before that I said back passes aren't defending. As a defensive player the job is to retrieve the ball at the back and get rid. Playing it back or sideways is not getting rid, it's adding to the danger. Look to the infamous Gerrard slip, there was no reason to play it to Gerrard. Sure he was a great player, but these freak incidents happen and the law of averages states it is more likely to happen if passing it in your own half. The best way to defend is to pass up around up front and if a good chance to score comes, take it. The defence should be seen as a last option not a place to get passing statistics. 

When I think about it you're probably right about Neville - after all wasn't it his back pass that slithered into the goal under the hilarious air kick of Paul Robinson against Croatia back in 2006? It was the first indication that McClaren's reign was going to be the ultimate tragicomedy. Neville would get absolutely traumatised if he had to play the way most top class full backs play like these days (then again, so would most fullbacks from the 90s/00s)

Henderson should not hold onto the ball, he should get it to the attacking midfield as soon as he can.

That's not a good balance though. Sometimes keeping the ball and waiting for clearer opportunities is much better than a riskier pass.

I also think his defensive work is very underrated. Been saying for months his ability to cause other players to make mistakes due to pressure is great.

No secret I think he's a great player and growing more and more as a captain, don't think you can say he's not vocal enough on the pitch anymore, don't think you can say he could be working harder, don't think you could ask him to be a better professional. I think he's a fine captain but has been hampered by 2 things. 1. He started out poorly as he was played out of position. 2. He's not Steven Gerrard.

Like was mentioned earlier, you're not the captain of a Champions League finalist team if you're no good. You're not the DM of a squad that's getting 17 clean sheets if you aren't good at it and you're not the DM of one of the best pressing teams in the world if you're not good at it. Also, plain and simple, you don't get into a Klopp team over and over if you're not fit for it.

No more argument for me. If you think he's 'sh*te' you're just wrong. If you think we can do better, I'd say you have a case but the days of "Henderson is sh*te" are thankfully and rightfully dead and buried.