Jordan Henderson (Liverpool -> Al-Ettifaq (5 months) -> Ajax)

God you really are a f**king know all going on ignore you self righteous txxt

No. I'm happy to debate anything

However he's missed the point

As have you ( unless you're just angry and trying to argue any of my posts - shhhhh 🙈 but I think that it... little knickers in a twist 😂)

...because even if he plays well he's only average at the stage of highest football.

That’s certainly not true. He was motm against Bayern in the Champions League which is arguably the highest football stage.

I accept other people's opinions but the hostility towards fans that don't see what Hendo fanboys see is ridiculous.

Wow I am a fanboy of a Liverpool player. The absolute stupidity of people who say they are fans of Liverpool but then have a go at true supporters  for supporting a Liverpool player. I don't give a flying f**k about these idiots time after time people who actually understand the game talk about Henderson in the highest regard as does our manager. I wish they would all f**k off and support City

https://www.express.co.uk/sport/football/1091800/Liverpool-news-Jürgen-Klopp-Henderson-Man-Utd-draw-bust-up-touchline-substitute/amp

I did a Google search to find what I spotted during the game. I don't usually read express but here anyway.

What a piece of sh*t, clickbait article.

Title: 'THIS is what was said'
Article: 'Henderson annoyed at being subbed'

Absolute trash.

Wow I am a fanboy of a Liverpool player. The absolute stupidity of people who say they are fans of Liverpool but then have a go at true supporters  for supporting a Liverpool player. I don't give a flying f**k about these idiots time after time people who actually understand the game talk about Henderson in the highest regard as does our manager. I wish they would all f**k off and support City

Right, if someone was a fanboy for say Voronin or Andy Carroll, you wouldn't be saying this would you.

Henderson isn't anywhere near the best player in our team, why are people so f**king wound up by other fans not rating him, i really don't understand it.

People who actually understand the game? So people who think Henderson isn't that great don't understand the game? Right. Tell me this, does Henderson get into City's team? No. Does he get into Chelsea's? No. Does he get into Spur's team? Maybe. Yeah that's great a midfielder who probably can just about make it into a Spurs team is our captain, sweet.

I wanted to be reserved but f**k me, say something bad about the almighty Henderson and next thing you're being told you aren't a real fan and should go support City, at least with the relentless Salah supporters from Egypt their obsessing over a world class player.

Right, if someone was a fanboy for say Voronin or Andy Carroll, you wouldn't be saying this would you.

Henderson isn't anywhere near the best player in our team, why are people so f**king wound up by other fans not rating him, i really don't understand it.

People who actually understand the game? So people who think Henderson isn't that great don't understand the game? Right. Tell me this, does Henderson get into City's team? No. Does he get into Chelsea's? No. Does he get into Spur's team? Maybe. Yeah that's great a midfielder who probably can just about make it into a Spurs team is our captain, sweet.

I wanted to be reserved but f**k me, say something bad about the almighty Henderson and next thing you're being told you aren't a real fan and should go support City, at least with the relentless Salah supporters from Egypt their obsessing over a world class player.

Henderson 100% gets into Chelsea's team fyi

Henderson 100% gets into Chelsea's team fyi

Not ahead of Kante, maybe Jorginho.

What you think about the rest of the post?

Not ahead of Kante, maybe Jorginho.

What you think about the rest of the post?

I’d put him in beside Kante yep.

Rest is fine. If people don’t like him then whatever, I’m just not up for bullshit arguments like ‘he only passes sideways’ when time after time it’s been proven to be a myth when you compare him to players that play in the same role.

If you’d prefer a midfield player that makes more driving runs and dribbles more then fair enough, that’s not his game. If you want someone who tries riskier passes with a lower success rate, again fair enough I can see that.

Henderson is masterful at making sure we have the ball both defensively and offensively, he takes calculated risks and is a big voice on and off the pitch.

I think the argument of him not being a quality player are left only for those who have dug holes too deep for their egos to climb out of. He’s clearly very, very good. World class? No I don’t think so, but vital to this squad, abso-F***ing-lutely 

I’d put him in beside Kante yep.

Rest is fine. If people don’t like him then whatever, I’m just not up for bullshit arguments like ‘he only passes sideways’ when time after time it’s been proven to be a myth when you compare him to players that play in the same role.

If you’d prefer a midfield player that makes more driving runs and dribbles more then fair enough, that’s not his game. If you want someone who tries riskier passes with a lower success rate, again fair enough I can see that.

Henderson is masterful at making sure we have the ball both defensively and offensively, he takes calculated risks and is a big voice on and off the pitch.

I think the argument of him not being a quality player are left only for those who have dug holes too deep for their egos to climb out of. He’s clearly very, very good. World class? No I don’t think so, but vital to this squad, abso-f**king-lutely

Made a great run into box think in second half which I think he can pull off more often if role suits

I’d put him in beside Kante yep.

Rest is fine. If people don’t like him then whatever, I’m just not up for bullshit arguments like ‘he only passes sideways’ when time after time it’s been proven to be a myth when you compare him to players that play in the same role.

If you’d prefer a midfield player that makes more driving runs and dribbles more then fair enough, that’s not his game. If you want someone who tries riskier passes with a lower success rate, again fair enough I can see that.

Henderson is masterful at making sure we have the ball both defensively and offensively, he takes calculated risks and is a big voice on and off the pitch.

I think the argument of him not being a quality player are left only for those who have dug holes too deep for their egos to climb out of. He’s clearly very, very good. World class? No I don’t think so, but vital to this squad, abso-f**king-lutely 

As you put it, he doesn't offer enough going forward for me, i appreciate what he does defensively but i think Gini and Fabinho are more than capable to pick up in that department while offering that little bit more going forward (in comparison to Hendo).

Ah well, hopefully in the next couple of games he puts in performances to make me think he can be one of the first names on the team sheet.

Problem seems to be consistency. In my opinion he played a blinder on Tuesday but other than maybe 1 match earlier in the season how often can that be said? It's frustrating that he can be that good but not often enough.

I thought he was pretty good today.

Probably the most rounded of the 3 when all were on park for me - but I thought the midfield generally did ok.

I thought he was pretty good today.

Probably the most rounded of the 3 when all were on park for me - but I thought the midfield generally did ok.

Agreed,it was the front 3 that was the bigger problem today. The midfield 3 lacked creativity but it always does, nothing new there. But at least give them half a chance to maybe try and create something. The movement was crap from the front 3 after Bobby went off, half the time Sturridge was stood with either Mane, Salah and Origi and as soon as any of the front 3 had to challenge for the ball or generally do something, they were a massive let down.

There’s a lot of fault with today’s performance but I think it’s harsh to be picking out the midfield. Thought they all played well and Hendo had every right to look disappointed when he went off.

Played very well today..hes not the issue

Played very well today..hes not the issue

I agree. The issue was the balance in midfield.

Jordan Henderson did Jordan Henderson things and did them well enough.

Played very well today..hes not the issue

He himself is not the issue but there is a issue.

As PM stated it’s the balance, if we play with essentially 3 defensive minded midfielders who is going to provide the penetration to link up with the front 3.

Playing 3 No6’s is just over kill.

Agreed it was not any individual's fault, but if I had to pick one of the midfielders to go out for a more positive option such as Keita, it surely wouldn't be Fabinho - who has been very good against United in both matches - nor Gini - who's been one of our most consistent players this season. Going forward with the ball Henderson has always been a bit limited, he's much more for running into space rather than breaking lines himself, since 2011 he's annoyed the hell out of me for always passing to the winger when he's got the ball, and in a match like yesterday there wasn't much he could do attacking wise.

So you don't understand how we play either.
OK.

Do you understand why the fullbacks push right up, and we get the ball wide to them as often as possible?

Do you understand that we play with at least 2 midfielders who are essentially defenders, because our fullbacks are pushed right up?

Obviously not.

Never mind.
As you were.
Fed up trying to explain basic sh*t to people who don't listen.

I'm absolutely not an expert, my football knowledge I think almost zero, but I see things  different.

I think we 'forced' our team to play mostly on the flanks because our midfield players not capable to do sufficient attacking through the middle.

Who is our 'missed' player since last season?  AOC. He's missed because no him no effective attacking through the middle.

Why people praise Lallana in Klopp first season? Because Klopp transformed Lallana to that 'attack through the middle' kind of player.

Why Klopp bring in Keita?  I think not many expect Naby come in to do that 'extra defender in midfield' thing. He's expected to improve our effective attacking play through the middle.

Why people love Gini and Fabinho? Because they defend well and contribute decent attacking to the team.

Why Heno get much praise from Bayern game? Of course his defending are great but he offer very good attacking contribution too. His best season in 2013/14 also because he contribute to our attacking play plus few goals from midfield. From that time up to last game against Bayern he seem not offer such quality consistently that's imo people disappointed of him.

If you read this, please don't reply. I'm not well reading English now. I'm getting old and my English seem getting worse and worse.

Think the reaction was more adrenaline fueled than anything.
Team started with a midfield 3, as Klopp always does in the tougher games.
Moving to a 2-2-2 is the norm when he looks to change the game.
That means one of Gini, Fabinho or Hendo had to come off.
Maybe part of Hendo's frustration based on knowing that's more likely to keep happening. 

For what it's worth, thought Hendo played well, and it was notably more open when he came off,
but then that's a biproduct of switching from a midfield 3 to a midfield 2.

Not Hendo's fault. Bigger issue still that the drop off from the front 3 is huge.

Mate, i am not here for an argument, at the end of the day i am on here as a Liverpool fan.

If you think Henderson is key to how we play then fine but for me i don't see why a midfield of Fabinho, Gini and Keita wouldn't work with Fabinho playing in the deep lying role Henderson picks up. We can play without him and IMO play better without him.

Feel free to educate me, I am a good listener.

Our penetration and attacking play does not come from midfield.

We play either 2 defensive mids in a box shape, with Fabinho and Wijnaldum in front of the 2 CB.
Or we play Henderson deep, with gini in front of him, but essentially still a defender, you can see this clearly when Henderson drops in a line with the 2 CB, and Wijnaldum drifts wider, allowing him to both support the FB and also cover for them.
On the other flank our third mid will cover behind and support the attacking FB.

This means we are playing with 6 attackers and 4 defenders.
When the 3rd mid attacks, it is as a runner to break the lines and draw out the opposition.

When we play with 5 attackers and 5 defenders, we have one deep, 2 wide in a kind of wide triangle.
The primary role of the 2 wide mids is to support the FB and cover them.

You have to change how you see the game is all.
Fullbacks for us, are attacking players.
Midfielders are either 2 or 3 defensive players depending on how Klopp sets us up.

The manager wants to outnumber the opposition in key area's. Out wide is the primary focus.
You'll see Firmino drift wider towards the flank when the FB is attacking, so we then have (for instance) Robertson furthest up, Mane slightly behind and inside him, Firmino inside him (but still wide rather than central) and a mid behind the FB.

This is why I keep saying the "creativity from midfield" is nonsense for the most part.
It's why Henderson, Fabinho and Wijnaldum all get the ball wide as early as possible.

That's the basics of it.
You'll see other shapes, formations and systems during a game depending on different factors, but the basic premise will remain.

Think the reaction was more adrenaline fueled than anything.
Team started with a midfield 3, as Klopp always does in the tougher games.
Moving to a 2-2-2 is the norm when he looks to change the game.
That means one of Gini, Fabinho or Hendo had to come off.
Maybe part of Hendo's frustration based on knowing that's more likely to keep happening. 

For what it's worth, thought Hendo played well, and it was notably more open when he came off,
but then that's a biproduct of switching from a midfield 3 to a midfield 2.

Not Hendo's fault. Bigger issue still that the drop off from the front 3 is huge.

Yep.

The continued absence of an advanced 10 is baffling.......

Our penetration and attacking play does not come from midfield.

We play either 2 defensive mids in a box shape, with Fabinho and Wijnaldum in front of the 2 CB.
Or we play Henderson deep, with gini in front of him, but essentially still a defender, you can see this clearly when Henderson drops in a line with the 2 CB, and Wijnaldum drifts wider, allowing him to both support the FB and also cover for them.
On the other flank our third mid will cover behind and support the attacking FB.

This means we are playing with 6 attackers and 4 defenders.
When the 3rd mid attacks, it is as a runner to break the lines and draw out the opposition.

When we play with 5 attackers and 5 defenders, we have one deep, 2 wide in a kind of wide triangle.
The primary role of the 2 wide mids is to support the FB and cover them.

You have to change how you see the game is all.
Fullbacks for us, are attacking players.
Midfielders are either 2 or 3 defensive players depending on how Klopp sets us up.

The manager wants to outnumber the opposition in key area's. Out wide is the primary focus.
You'll see Firmino drift wider towards the flank when the FB is attacking, so we then have (for instance) Robertson furthest up, Mane slightly behind and inside him, Firmino inside him (but still wide rather than central) and a mid behind the FB.

This is why I keep saying the "creativity from midfield" is nonsense for the most part.
It's why Henderson, Fabinho and Wijnaldum all get the ball wide as early as possible.

That's the basics of it.
You'll see other shapes, formations and systems during a game depending on different factors, but the basic premise will remain.

Thank you for taking the time to post this, makes for an interesting read.

I guess what I take from that post is that it is not really Henderson that is the problem but instead the formation and tactics Jürgen sets up himself because it seems that we don't have enough midfielders who are looking to get forward and attack.

Another thing, if the fullbacks are having an off day we are truly limited in the way we approach a game with Hendo on the fill, as you put it we need to think of the fullbacks as attacking players, but when Milner is playing and Robbo is having an off day we are very limited going forward IMO and the front three become isolated and frustrated.

When Hendo is not in the team does the setup change at all? Because it seems like Gini and Keita actually try to get forward and play in between the lines of opposition when Fabinho is sitting, whereas yesterday all three seemed in close proximity to one another further back.