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      Jordan Henderson (Liverpool -> Al-Ettifaq (5 months) -> Ajax)

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      Swab
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6739: Feb 25, 2019 12:44:29 pm
      Thank you for taking the time to post this, makes for an interesting read.

      I guess what I take from that post is that it is not really Henderson that is the problem but instead the formation and tactics Jürgen sets up himself because it seems that we don't have enough midfielders who are looking to get forward and attack.

      When Hendo is not in the team does the setup change at all? Because it seems like Gini and Keita actually try to get forward and play in between the lines of opposition when Fabinho is sitting, whereas yesterday all three seemed in close proximity to one another further back.

      Again, at least 2 out of 3 midfielders are primarily defenders.
      We work the ball wide as early as possible because those are the area's we want to attack.

      It's misleading to think of a midfielder "joining the attack" because the play is often very compressed in the opponents half.
      We keep the same basic shape, but the opposition are so deep, that it looks like our midfielders are attackers.
      For reference, look at the distance between the CB and mids - that is your point of reference. You'll see that the distance between them doesn't actually vary very much, instead it's that we have pushed the opposition back so far, that every player except the 'keeper is in the opposition half.
      waltonl4
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6740: Feb 25, 2019 12:46:54 pm
      Not sure if any one has noticed but the formation and tactics have put us top of the league. I cant begin to count how many time I have to post that we are TOP OF THE LEAGUE but it seems to have passed some people by. Jordan has played his part and the fact we have so many more points and conceded fewer goals is a reflection on how much we have improved as a team . We are a team that is far more pragmatic than last season and that point yesterday may well be the one point we need to win the league.
      Pulling players,Tactics and the Manager apart is just weird considering where we are.
      RC9
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6741: Feb 25, 2019 12:49:35 pm
      Again, at least 2 out of 3 midfielders are primarily defenders.
      We work the ball wide as early as possible because those are the area's we want to attack.

      It's misleading to think of a midfielder "joining the attack" because the play is often very compressed in the opponents half.
      We keep the same basic shape, but the opposition are so deep, that it looks like our midfielders are attackers.
      For reference, look at the distance between the CB and mids - that is your point of reference. You'll see that the distance between them doesn't actually vary very much, instead it's that we have pushed the opposition back so far, that every player except the 'keeper is in the opposition half.

      This makes more and more sense now.

      I guess the nuts and bolts of it though are that you believe Henderson is the best man for his role in these tactics being applied where I seem to think we would be ok with Fabinho stepping in and Gini being the other 'defensive' midfielder.

      RC9
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6742: Feb 25, 2019 12:51:30 pm
      Not sure if any one has noticed but the formation and tactics have put us top of the league. I cant begin to count how many time I have to post that we are TOP OF THE LEAGUE but it seems to have passed some people by. Jordan has played his part and the fact we have so many more points and conceded fewer goals is a reflection on how much we have improved as a team . We are a team that is far more pragmatic than last season and that point yesterday may well be the one point we need to win the league.
      Pulling players,Tactics and the Manager apart is just weird considering where we are.

      Sure it has and I appreciate the difference in tactics has got us this far and made us a much more solid team, but it seems to become the only way we can play this season, that is the fear.

      If it doesn't work we continue to persist with it, I am not saying we need to change it up for every game but where a team looks  significantly weakened like United did yesterday I think we can take a more aggressive approach in midfield.
      Swab
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6743: Feb 25, 2019 01:01:53 pm
      This makes more and more sense now.

      I guess the nuts and bolts of it though are that you believe Henderson is the best man for his role in these tactics being applied where I seem to think we would be ok with Fabinho stepping in and Gini being the other 'defensive' midfielder.

      There's a reason Klopp calls Henderson "my General" and plays him alone as the deepest mid.
      When Fabinho plays, he always has another player beside him, usually Wijnaldum.

      When Henderson plays, the other 2 mids can press and counter press higher up the field, winning the ball back in higher positions, and increasing our chances of scoring.
      RC9
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6744: Feb 25, 2019 01:18:10 pm
      There's a reason Klopp calls Henderson "my General" and plays him alone as the deepest mid.
      When Fabinho plays, he always has another player beside him, usually Wijnaldum.

      When Henderson plays, the other 2 mids can press and counter press higher up the field, winning the ball back in higher positions, and increasing our chances of scoring.

      Out of interest, what would be your starting midfield and what positions would they take up?
      Swab
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6745: Feb 25, 2019 01:44:50 pm
      Out of interest, what would be your starting midfield and what positions would they take up?

      I don't much care to be honest.
      What I am waiting to see is the plan of 3 mids who can all interchange easily and comfortably between the 3 roles, without needing to have 2 sitting.
      It's not quite there yet, but it'll come.

      On top of that, I can't wait to see the best of Keita.
      It's been a difficult season for him, but there's no doubting his quality. He's just found it a bit hard to settle.
      Then we also have Ox coming back.

      It's all about options, and mixing and matching to find the best way to break down and beat whoever is in front of us.
      PurpleMonkey
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6746: Feb 25, 2019 01:54:23 pm
      I think we 'forced' our team to play mostly on the flanks because our midfield players not capable to do sufficient attacking through the middle.

      Forced? Perhaps, perhaps not, but it's evidently clear to see when Hendo plays, we use our full backs/wide areas a lot more, where as when Fabinho plays, the distribution is more varied, therefore making us less predictable and more threatening in attack imo.

      Swab
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6747: Feb 25, 2019 01:59:09 pm
      Forced? Perhaps, perhaps not, but it's evidently clear to see when Hendo plays, we use our full backs/wide areas a lot more, where as when Fabinho plays, the distribution is more varied, therefore making us less predictable and more threatening in attack imo.

      Not, it's because we play a different formation.

      2 sitting in front of the 2 CB's in a box formation, rather than one sitting deep with CB's in a staggered midfield 3.

      Klopp himself has said this, as I've posted before, but you ignore what the manager says in pursuit of this weird agenda you have.

      Scotia
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6748: Feb 25, 2019 02:11:52 pm
      Forced? Perhaps, perhaps not, but it's evidently clear to see when Hendo plays, we use our full backs/wide areas a lot more, where as when Fabinho plays, the distribution is more varied, therefore making us less predictable and more threatening in attack imo.



      Not yesterday PM. To my eyes Fab was the one going wide too early or backwards.

      It may be - ultimately - that they are too similar but to be honest I think they were decent yesterday. What we missed was a 10 or Bobby picking the ball up and linking.
      PurpleMonkey
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6749: Feb 25, 2019 02:14:28 pm
      Not, it's because we play a different formation.

      2 sitting in front of the 2 CB's in a box formation, rather than one sitting deep with CB's in a staggered midfield 3.

      Klopp himself has said this, as I've posted before, but you ignore what the manager says in pursuit of this weird agenda you have.



      What have I denied? That we usually play with 2 CM/double 6/double pivot? I think it was you who denied this even when I showed you evidence and evidence from your friend, P.Neville good few pages back.

      Anyway, do you think Henderson can distribute like Fabinho if asked to? Both players have played in a 3 and 2 this season, and both distribute from deep differently because they have different levels of technical ability and are different types of players.
      PurpleMonkey
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6750: Feb 25, 2019 02:21:32 pm
      Not yesterday PM. To my eyes Fab was the one going wide too early or backwards.

      It may be - ultimately - that they are too similar but to be honest I think they were decent yesterday. What we missed was a 10 or Bobby picking the ball up and linking.

      We definitely missed a 10 or a Keita yesterday imo, but should we know by now what type of ball distributor Henderson is?

      Am I wrong to think Henderson is more your conservative distributor that focuses on long balls or more prone to playing balls into wide areas, where as Fabinho is more mixed like your Busquets type distributor?
      Swab
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6751: Feb 25, 2019 02:21:49 pm
      What have I denied? That we usually play with 2 CM/double 6/double pivot? I think it was you who denied this even when I showed you evidence and evidence from your friend, P.Neville good few pages back.

      Anyway, do you think Henderson can distribute like Fabinho if asked to? Both players have played in a 3 and 2 this season, and both distribute from deep differently because they have different levels of technical ability and are different types of players.

      No.

      Again with the lies.
      How old are you?

      Your mate Neville said we were playing a double pivot, so you ran with that.
      We weren't, and we don't, and yet for page after page, you insisted we did.
      Then you took the time to find out what a double pivot was, as opposed to 2 6's, and shut up about it.
      Until now.

      Henderson can indeed distribute like Fabinho.

      This fixation you have on Henderson "not being technical" is horseshit.
      Give it up, you're embarrassing yourself.
      Scotia
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6752: Feb 25, 2019 02:26:09 pm
      We definitely missed a 10 or a Keita yesterday imo, but should we know by now what type of ball distributor Henderson is?

      Am I wrong to think Henderson is more your conservative distributor that focuses on long balls or more prone to playing balls into wide areas, where as Fabinho is more mixed like your Busquets type distributor?

      I don’t see the distinction you do in that regard.

      My principal differentiator at the moment would be Fab’s ability / potential to carry the ball (rather like Matip) yesterday.

      If I’d to criticise the midfield for anything yesterday it would be that we passed from too deep, too early.
      Swab
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6753: Feb 25, 2019 02:29:24 pm
      Excellent defensive stats from Henderson, playing as the lone 6

      https://www.premierleague.com/players/3712/Jordan-Henderson/stats?co=1&se=210
      racerx34
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6754: Feb 25, 2019 02:31:47 pm
      Forced? Perhaps, perhaps not, but it's evidently clear to see when Hendo plays, we use our full backs/wide areas a lot more, where as when Fabinho plays, the distribution is more varied, therefore making us less predictable and more threatening in attack imo.



      Because, in the case of the United game, the team changed from a midfield 3 to a 4-2-2-2.
      Swab
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6755: Feb 25, 2019 02:39:16 pm
      I don’t see the distinction you do in that regard.

      My principal differentiator at the moment would be Fab’s ability / potential to carry the ball (rather like Matip) yesterday.

      If I’d to criticise the midfield for anything yesterday it would be that we passed from too deep, too early.

      Said this at the start of the season.
      He's not doing enough of it yet, but it'll come.
      Swab
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6756: Feb 25, 2019 02:39:57 pm
      Because, in the case of the United game, the team changed from a midfield 3 to a 4-2-2-2.

      Yes, the "Klopp Cock"   :laugh:
      HScRed1
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6757: Feb 25, 2019 02:44:23 pm
      Not yesterday PM. To my eyes Fab was the one going wide too early or backwards.

      It may be - ultimately - that they are too similar but to be honest I think they were decent yesterday. What we missed was a 10 or Bobby picking the ball up and linking.

      Once the Mancs went 451 after their injuries all the space was out wide. So no other options for Fab.

      Henderson is never going to ask for the ball in those tight area’s, Gini could do it but again he is fairly conservative.
      Bobby dropping deep in those congested areas is him basically compensating for our midfielders inability to play in those congested zones.

      HScRed1
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6758: Feb 25, 2019 02:47:09 pm
      I wonder why the defensive General was the one hooked 🤣
      srslfc
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6759: Feb 25, 2019 02:51:57 pm
      I wonder why the defensive General was the one hooked 🤣

      Fitness I suspect.
      RC9
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6760: Feb 25, 2019 02:55:20 pm
      I don't much care to be honest.
      What I am waiting to see is the plan of 3 mids who can all interchange easily and comfortably between the 3 roles, without needing to have 2 sitting.
      It's not quite there yet, but it'll come.

      On top of that, I can't wait to see the best of Keita.
      It's been a difficult season for him, but there's no doubting his quality. He's just found it a bit hard to settle.
      Then we also have Ox coming back.

      It's all about options and mixing and matching to find the best way to break down and beat whoever is in front of us.

      This is true, I am all for us having different options in games as I think that's what sets a winning team apart from the rest of the pack, the ability to adapt game to game and even within games.

      I also share your enthusiasm towards Keita, I love the kid, just hope he stays in the team consistently enough to show us what his really about.  Be interesting to see what happens with Ox and Keita becomes I am not sure we can afford to have both in midfield as we would be exposed defensively, but the threat going forward is mouthwatering. 
      HScRed1
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #6761: Feb 25, 2019 02:56:48 pm

      Eh?

      If there is something that Henderson doesn’t lack its fitness.

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