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      Judge says families of Hillsborough dead should act with more dignity

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      Eem
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      Re: Judge says families of Hillsborough dead should act with more dignity
      Reply #46: Oct 20, 2011 11:57:12 am
      w**ker.

      They've had 22 years of horrible injustice, lies and cover-ups and this arsehole has the nerve to say this kind of sh*te.
      JD
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      Re: Judge says families of Hillsborough dead should act with more dignity
      Reply #47: Oct 20, 2011 12:05:46 pm
      In the defence of The Times, they have today published four letters in response to yesterday's letter, highlighting the fact that there were no 'unanswered questions' over Bradford, that Bradford's fans were not blamed for the fire and that the two matters are entirely different.
      waltonl4
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      Re: Judge says families of Hillsborough dead should act with more dignity
      Reply #48: Oct 20, 2011 12:27:19 pm
      In the defence of The Times, they have today published four letters in response to yesterday's letter, highlighting the fact that there were no 'unanswered questions' over Bradford, that Bradford's fans were not blamed for the fire and that the two matters are entirely different.
      Thats good of them but the issue I have is why bother even publishing it as it was so wide of the mark and Popplewell is irrelevant. I Get the feeling this is possibly being orchestrated.
      HUYTON RED
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      Re: Judge says families of Hillsborough dead should act with more dignity
      Reply #49: Oct 20, 2011 02:13:29 pm
      Bradford fire survivor attacks judge over Hillsborough comments

      • Criticism of Hillsborough families branded 'disgraceful'
      • Retired judge had suggested that they should move on

      A survivor of the 1985 fire at Bradford City in which 56 people died has profoundly criticised the judge who conducted the official inquiry into that disaster and who this week unfavourably compared the response of families bereaved by the Hillsborough disaster to those of Bradford.

      Mr Justice Popplewell said in a letter to The Times that the Hillsborough families are "harbouring conspiracy theories'" rather than behaving with "quiet dignity and great courage" like the Bradford families did.

      Martin Fletcher was 12 when he emerged alive from Valley Parade's inferno, but his father John, older brother Andrew, grandfather Eddie and uncle Peter, with whom he had been attending the Third Division match between Bradford City and Lincoln City, all died. He was also at the FA Cup semi-final at Hillsborough four years later, at which 96 Liverpool supporters died.

      "For Popplewell to say that the Hillsborough families are 'harbouring conspiracy theories' while the Bradford families 'organised a sensible compensation scheme and moved on,' is an absolute travesty of the truth and a disgrace," Fletcher said.

      "I have many unanswered questions still about the fire in which four of my family died, as does my mother. Popplewell's report was nowhere close to the quality of Lord Justice Taylor's report after Hillsborough, and since reading it as an adult I have always been very disappointed in it and considered it a poor piece of work.

      "Rather than lecture the Hillsborough families not to ask questions, the judge should ask himself why, after a disaster caused by a negligent approach to safety at football, despite his report, standards in football were allowed to remain so lamentably poor that another disaster happened at Hillsborough just four years later."

      Fletcher, now an accountant, also wholly rejected Popplewell's assertion that "a sensible compensation scheme" was organised after Bradford. In fact, there was a charitable disaster appeal, no organised compensation scheme, and his mother, Susan, took a negligence action, which she had to fund herself, against the club and Yorkshire County Council, for its safety oversight of Valley Parade.

      In the high court, both were found to have been negligent in allowing litter to build up over many years under the void of the club's wooden main stand, and to have done nothing to clear it despite explicit written warnings that it was a fire risk. Two years later, the club was found two-thirds liable, the council one third.

      Popplewell, in his report, wrote that his task was "not to allocate blame," and he was sympathetic to the club, saying that lower division football was "run on shoestring".

      That season Bradford City, owned by the motor trade entrepreneur Jack Tordoff and chairman Stafford Heginbotham, fielded a side good enough to win the Third Division championship, while doing little safety or maintenance work on the ground.

      After the fire, Valley Parade was rebuilt with public grants and insurance money, and Popplewell himself returned to Bradford to open it. Shortly afterwards, Heginbotham and Tordoff sold their shares in the club at a profit.

      Fletcher has spent years in his 20s and 30s trying to understand the disaster, including a detailed reading of Popplewell's report and the evidence given to the inquiry, which has left him deeply dissatisfied.

      The judge held his inquiry just over three weeks after the fire, and it lasted little more than a week. After Hillsborough, the West Midlands police force was appointed to independently investigate, three months were spent gathering evidence and Taylor heard arguments in detail in his inquiry over several weeks.

      Taylor's report clearly identified who was to blame and how the disaster happened, which the bereaved Hillsborough families are able to point to 22 years later, in their fight to understand why nobody in authority took responsibility, with South Yorkshire police instead blaming the disaster on supporters.

      Fletcher argues Popplewell's inquiry was too quick, he believes there should have been an independent investigating police force brought in, and he is frustrated by what he feels is Popplewell's failure to allocate responsibility clearly.

      "He stated that a discarded cigarette was the likely cause, but never identified the smoker or detailed the circumstances in which that happened. Nor did he properly expose and allocate blame for the scale of negligence which lay behind the disaster."

      Fletcher, who had family in Bradford but grew up in Nottingham, was in the Forest end at Hillsborough.

      "I cried after that, in my mother's car, asking why, as people had survived at Bradford because there were no fences in front of the main stand, there were still fences up at football grounds four years later. Popplewell made precious few useful safety recommendations, and instead, soon after that, football supporters were going to have an identity card-type scheme imposed on them.

      "Taylor, after Hillsborough, emphatically insisted that football must be forced by legislation wholly to improve its safety culture. Popplewell did no such thing after Bradford, and when he talks about 'moving on,' yes, supporters moved on to another disaster, in which 96 people were killed.

      "He should be asking himself some searching questions, rather than lecture the families bereaved by the Hillsborough disaster that they should just accept it.

      "In all these years, Popplewell has never spoken to me or my mother, who lost four family members. He should not presume to speak on our behalf. Perhaps he should act with 'quiet dignity' himself."


      http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2011/oct/20/bradford-disaster-attacks-judge-hillsborough?CMP=twt_gu
      waltonl4
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      Re: Judge says families of Hillsborough dead should act with more dignity
      Reply #50: Oct 20, 2011 02:39:46 pm
      Well said Mr Fletcher you have our sympathies for your losses and an understanding of your continued desire for the Truth.
      RedScouseLaz
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      Re: Judge says families of Hillsborough dead should act with more dignity
      Reply #51: Oct 20, 2011 06:41:37 pm
      What an absolute cretin of a man. Like other's have said, the sh*t is about to hit the fan with the impending release of top secret government files as far as those responsible are concerned. The establishment of the time are now sh*tting themselves and rightly so as they are about to be revealed as the degenerate Liar's they are. His comments shouldnt have even been printed anyway, who gives a f**k what a senile old Thatcherite piece of sh*t says. Hope he f***in burns in hell the low-life tw*t!

      Makes me think. Why do we even call for a knighthood for King Kenny? . Don't get me wrong, he deserves one. Far more than that old pisshead down the wrong end of the East Lancs dose anyway. Bob Paisley never got one despite being the most successfull English manager of all time. What I am trying to say is, do they even want one? I for one would reject any such title from such a corrupt and Southern interested government. They will always look out for themselves first and foremost when things go to sh*t and the economy starts going west. Liverpool always seem's to be hit more than most as far as cut's are concerned. You can stick your Knighthood's an OBE's up yer arse. We're not English, We are Scouse!
      Gow
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      Re: Judge says families of Hillsborough dead should act with more dignity
      Reply #52: Oct 20, 2011 06:51:48 pm
      "Rather than lecture the Hillsborough families not to ask questions, the judge should ask himself why, after a disaster caused by a negligent approach to safety at football, despite his report, standards in football were allowed to remain so lamentably poor that another disaster happened at Hillsborough just four years later."

      Spot on. Absolutely F***ing spot on.
      stuey
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      Re: Judge says families of Hillsborough dead should act with more dignity
      Reply #53: Oct 20, 2011 06:58:37 pm
      For fucks sake it was his ilk that set the likes of Thatcher and her accomplices in the impenetrable shroud that has taken 22 F***ing years to penetrate, just die you old b***ard.
      Brian78
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      Re: Judge says families of Hillsborough dead should act with more dignity
      Reply #54: Oct 20, 2011 06:59:16 pm
      Senial old cu*t

      In respect to those who died at Bradford nobody blamed them and nobody accused them of stealing from the dead. its a completely difefrent situation and this oul knob should keep his mouth shut
      JD
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      Re: Judge says families of Hillsborough dead should act with more dignity
      Reply #55: Oct 20, 2011 07:17:21 pm
      Well said Martin Fletcher.

      YNWA to you and your family.
      redkenny
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      Re: Judge says families of Hillsborough dead should act with more dignity
      Reply #56: Oct 20, 2011 10:09:48 pm
      Absolutely well said Martin Fletcher. Especially this: "In all these years, Popplewell has never spoken to me or my mother, who lost four family members. He should not presume to speak on our behalf. Perhaps he should act with 'quiet dignity' himself."

      But it's all very sad because the motive behind which people like Popplewell speak, is usually a dark corrupted motive. So out of touch with decent human nature.

      The day I start to be bothered about what a senile 84 year old judge has to say won't be happening soon.

      This is a side issue - a distraction - and we shouldn't give him an iota of our time or thoughts.  Far bigger fish to fry on this issue.

      Extremely good point mate.
      tezmac
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      Re: Judge says families of Hillsborough dead should act with more dignity
      Reply #57: Oct 20, 2011 10:19:14 pm
      Would like to see what happened to the 96 happen to one of his loved ones and see what his reaction would be... c**t
      Gow
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      Re: Judge says families of Hillsborough dead should act with more dignity
      Reply #58: Oct 20, 2011 10:35:04 pm
      Would like to see what happened to the 96 happen to one of his loved ones and see what his reaction would be.  c**t

      Thing is, you wouldn't though mate. Because we've got more dignity than that.
      dunlop liddell shankly
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      Re: Judge says families of Hillsborough dead should act with more dignity
      Reply #59: Oct 20, 2011 10:38:54 pm
      Would like to see what happened to the 96 happen to one of his loved ones and see what his reaction would be... c**t

      Not being funny lad, but what a F***ing horrible thing to say. To wish that sort of tragedy on anyone is disgusting. Liverpool fans are better than that. Yes what he said was F***ing horrible but we're bigger than to wish it upon him.
      tezmac
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      Re: Judge says families of Hillsborough dead should act with more dignity
      Reply #60: Oct 20, 2011 11:10:33 pm
      Just meant to see what his reaction would be concidering what he had said and how he would have reacted wouldn't wish what happened to and the subsiquent lies and deciet that happened to the 96
      Dadorious
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      Re: Judge says families of Hillsborough dead should act with more dignity
      Reply #61: Oct 21, 2011 02:16:06 am
      He can go and F**k himself the insensitive silver spooned dog.
      neilh2105
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      Re: Judge says families of Hillsborough dead should act with more dignity
      Reply #62: Oct 21, 2011 08:39:57 am
      If this is what our betters’ (intelligentsia & ruling classes) are saying now. I can't even begin to imagine what was being said by the cabinet and West Yorkshire Police at the time. Especially as the FA, Government, and the police played "the blame game" pass the parcel with the tragedy.

      Does my memory serve me correct, but was it only the Police on the day who were given the right to claim compensation for their "traumatic experience" that was Hillsborough? Fire, Ambulance & fans were blocked from claims. I mention this as it only goes to show what an utterly corrupt system we are governed by.

      I for one will predict that none of the documents about to be realised will be embarrassing to any one in authority at the time, especially if they are still alive. Why? Because they anything earth shattering will simply be shredded, if it hasn’t already been.

      As you can no doubt glean, authority and honesty do not sit well with little old cynical me!
      finchie
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      Re: Judge says families of Hillsborough dead should act with more dignity
      Reply #63: Oct 21, 2011 09:34:16 am
      That's why I too am not getting too carried away with the release NeilH. The shredders will have been very busy. It's F***ing sickening how corrupt and dishonest our supposedly civilised, developed country is. This judge epitomises the authority figures we are up against.
      LFCexiled
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      Re: Judge says families of Hillsborough dead should act with more dignity
      Reply #64: Oct 21, 2011 09:48:48 am
      As you can no doubt glean, authority and honesty do not sit well with little old cynical me!

      You're far from being alone on that score Neil.
      JD
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      Re: Judge says families of Hillsborough dead should act with more dignity
      Reply #65: Oct 21, 2011 11:46:30 am
      I think we've all made our point about this Judge's 'comments' and the excellent response by Martin Fletcher.

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