North Sea League

OK, it is a wild idea, but I would like to discuss it with our friends from the countries around the North sea.



We can see that the overall quality of the league football in Holland, Belgium, Scotland, Denmark, Norway and Sweden is average, despite having some good clubs like Ajax, PSV, Anderlecht, Brugge, Rangers, Celtic, Copenhagen, Brondby, Rosenborg, Valerenga, Malmo and Goteborg. I know that I have missed some good clubs, but you get the general idea.

My question is: How would our friends from these countries feel about the creation of a regional North Sea League?

I don't see the appeal of that. The North Sea in itself isn't a very interesting football region. As a Dutchie, I'd prefer it staying as it is instead. Rather have the Dutch League and the EPlL continue in their current form.

But I would like an European Super League. It's not like the travel distances are a real issue. Or maybe just a Western European league or something, but it has to include clubs from countries like Germany, Italy, France, Spain and Portugal. That would be interesting. I think with a competition like that some big clubs from smaller countries, like Ajax, might be able to compete again because of improved finances. And the normal competitions would continue, and there could be play off battles between champions to gain promotion to the Super League etc. I'd love a competition like that.

I don't see the appeal of that. The North Sea in itself isn't a very interesting football region. As a Dutchie, I'd prefer it staying as it is instead. Rather have the Dutch League and the EPlL continue in their current form.

But I would like an European Super League. It's not like the travel distances are a real issue. Or maybe just a Western European league or something, but it has to include clubs from countries like Germany, Italy, France, Spain and Portugal. That would be interesting. I think with a competition like that some big clubs from smaller countries, like Ajax, might be able to compete again because of improved finances. And the normal competitions would continue, and there could be play off battles between champions to gain promotion to the Super League etc. I'd love a competition like that.

Even the top Dutch teams, like Ajax and PSV, are not financially capable of competing with the top English, Spanish, Italian or German clubs. The creation of the North Sea League would improve the financial position of all clubs involved, since we are talking of a 55-million market here, with a high spending power. The infrastructure (stadiums) is there, the fan base is there, and the only thing that is really missing is the bigger market.

The creation of this regional league doesn't necessarily means scrapping the domestic leagues. If you use the Brazilian competition format, the top clubs will still compete in the domestic leagues.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian_football_league_system

It would only improve the financial position of those clubs if fans are actually interested in a competition like that. I wouldn't be interested in seeing it all, not from a Liverpool fan's perspective, and not from a Dutch League fan's perspective. I love football, but clubs from Scotland, Norway, Denmark, Sweden etc. don't excite me at all. It's like with the Europa League, it doesn't get interesting untill after the group stages and the smaller clubs are all out. And like the Europa League, the North Sea league wouldn't be very interesting from a commercial point of view either. It wouldn't attract alot of viewers. And for English clubs especially it wouldn't be financially interesting to compete in it, it's never going to be bigger than the EPL. And it's safe to say that schedules for top clubs and players especially are busy enough, without the addition of another league.

It would only improve the financial position of those clubs if fans are actually interested in a competition like that. I wouldn't be interested in seeing it all, not from a Liverpool fan's perspective, and not from a Dutch League fan's perspective. I love football, but clubs from Scotland, Norway, Denmark, Sweden etc. don't excite me at all. It's like with the Europa League, it doesn't get interesting untill after the group stages and the smaller clubs are all out. And like the Europa League, the North Sea league wouldn't be very interesting from a commercial point of view either. It wouldn't attract alot of viewers. And for English clubs especially it wouldn't be financially interesting to compete in it, it's never going to be bigger than the EPL. And it's safe to say that schedules for top clubs and players especially are busy enough, without the addition of another league.

The idea has nothing to do with the English clubs. The Premier League is already strong enough, and busy enough. As for the Dutch fans not being interested, I am quite certain that the better quality of the game will produce interest. After all, playing Celtic or Anderlecht is not the same like playing Excelsior or Waalwijk.

Ahh, my bad, I would've thought England would be included since it's a North Sea league. That would've been the only interesting thing about it, playing against English clubs.

And you're wrong. Dutch people can't stand Scottish teams and their style of play. Completely against the Dutch philosophy, We see that as anti-football almost. Not something we want to see at all. And you might be right about clubs like Anderlecht and Standard, but that's only because they're Belgian and we're very strongly related to Belgium. Besides that though no team from any of those countries we'd be very interested in. And it's nice that you name some of the worst clubs in the Dutch league, but many of those clubs have their own stories, their own rivalries etc. You ask true Liverpool supporters who they'd rather play, Real Madrid or Everton. It's no different in the Dutch league, there's more to it than just the quality of the teams. And for the record, RKC is 9th at the moment, and playing brilliantly for the budget they're on.

Being from Scotland my view is I'd be just as bored by a North Sea League as I am by the SPL. The only thing I'd like to see is the Old Firm moving down to England, opening the Scottish league up as an added bonus. I just don't think I could raise any interest in a Anderlecht vs Rangers game, it'd be at best Europa League quality and it'd be at the cost of the old rivalries each team/league has.

Being from Scotland my view is I'd be just as bored by a North Sea League as I am by the SPL. The only thing I'd like to see is the Old Firm moving down to England, opening the Scottish league up as an added bonus. I just don't think I could raise any interest in a Anderlecht vs Rangers game, it'd be at best Europa League quality and it'd be at the cost of the old rivalries each team/league has.

To be honest, I don't think that the football fans in England would want the Old Firm in the English league. I can understand why people value the traditional rivalries, but the markets in the countries that I have mentioned above simply can't produce enough commercial revenue and TV money to support quality separate leagues.

Won't everyone get wet ?

The Dutch FA actually researched not too long ago whether it would be viable to join the Dutch and Belgian league. But turns out it's not an improvement financially, and supporters didn't want to see it happening. If people aren't interested in a foreign league and those clubs in the first place then they're not going to get interested in them just because they're thrown together. It's like with the Europa League, I don't think anyone's interested in all those other group games between those small clubs. Danish people might like it, Ajax is the most popular foreign club there. But here people would probably be put off, I think less people would watch, the Dutch are very traditional about their football.

The Dutch FA actually researched not too long ago whether it would be viable to join the Dutch and Belgian league. But turns out it's not an improvement financially, and supporters didn't want to see it happening. If people aren't interested in a foreign league and those clubs in the first place then they're not going to get interested in them just because they're thrown together. It's like with the Europa League, I don't think anyone's interested in all those other group games between those small clubs. Danish people might like it, Ajax is the most popular foreign club there. But here people would probably be put off, I think less people would watch, the Dutch are very traditional about their football.

Ajax would probably benefit the most from this type of a league. Their fan base in Scandinavia is already very significant.

As for the sporting and financial improvement from the regional league, I have no doubt about it. To be honest, I've got this idea when I was looking at the success of the regional Adriatic Basketball Association, a competition that was established by the clubs from several countries in the South-Eastern Europe, since they were unable to compete financially with the clubs from the rich basketball leagues like Spain, Italy or Turkey. The regional league had a slow start, but later it has become a success, increasing the quality of the clubs involved, and improving their financial position. The league has become so good, that even the champions of Israel (Maccabi Tel Aviv - a real European basketball powerhouse) have joined the league. Another good example is the Celtic League (rugby union).

It might look like a blasphemy for the football traditionalists, but the regional competitions are the way of the future, especially for the smaller countries/leagues.

Celtic League would be a great boost for our leagues.
Wouldn't be worth the riots on the streets though.

Then you look at how well it worked for Rugby.
Pity the same deal can't be brokered out at a football level.

I don't think you understand Dutch football culture Mac Red. Our football culture isn't rational, it's very idealist and full of sentiment. I have no doubt in my mind that a setup like that would draw far less support and viewers in my country. Dutch people actually aren't unhappy with the current state of our league. And you can't compare the ABA to this. I can guarantee you that the Eredivisie makes more money than the ABA alltogether. They don't need it like those basketball clubs need the ABA. And the ABA consists mostly of countries from former Yugoslavia, completely different situation. Same goes for the Celtic League. Those sports are far less popular, who don't really have another option if they want to be financially healthy and maintain professionality.

Also, the regional ties just aren't there. It would make sense if Scandinavia would start a league. And would make sense if Belgium and Netherlands join together. And Scotland to join another league in the UK, would make sense too. But lumping those 3 together makes no sense, and is very random.

And might I add the date and weather issue. Finland's, Norway's and Sweden's seasons start when ours ends, and end when ours start.

By the way, what I would love to see, is the German league and Dutch league joining together. There's alot of healthy competition and rivalry between Germany and Netherlands. But there are also very strong economic ties.

Imagine something like this:

Bayern Munchen
Werder Bremen
HSV
PSV Eindhoven
Schalke 04
Ajax
Bayern Leverkusen
VfB Stuttgart
AZ Alkmaar
FC Twente
VfL Wolfsburg
Borussia Dortmund
Feyenoord
Borussia Mönchengladbach
1899 Hoffenheim
Hertha BSC
Hannover 96
FC Groningen

And even the rest can merge into a 2nd division too from all the teams that didn't make the top division.

Ofcourse I know that the Germans don't really need this to happen. But it would still improve them too on all fronts. And they have a natural competiveness towards us that could make them open to this.

I like that idea, Bier.

However your point about the Germans not needing this to happen is very true. They have a terrific brand of football, packed stadiums and good rivalry. I don't think they would mess that up.

But do you think it would mess that up? I don't think it would, the opposite. I think it would make the league even more popular, and commercially more succesful. And they wouldn't loose alot of the rivalries, as I wouldn't expect more than about 6 Dutch clubs to be in the top division. And they actually bring new rivalries. There's a big regional rivalry between Schalke and Twente. And a decades old rivalry between Bayern and Ajax, dating back to the Beckenbauer-Cruijff era.

Also, the regional ties just aren't there. It would make sense if Scandinavia would start a league. And would make sense if Belgium and Netherlands join together. And Scotland to join another league in the UK, would make sense too. But lumping those 3 together makes no sense, and is very random.

And might I add the date and weather issue. Finland's, Norway's and Sweden's seasons start when ours ends, and end when ours start.

Sorry to say, but I feel that you have a narrow view on the issue. The idea is to create a league competition with the financial power of at least the French League One. I am aware of the meaning of the words Benelux, Scandinavia and United Kingdom.

As for the weather issues, I have already suggested the Brazilian competition format. The regional league would take place in the spring (in this case, March-April-May), so the national leagues will have the other 9 months on their disposal.

Well, you certainly know the conditions in the Dutch football better. Still, I am willing to bet that the Dutch fans are not very happy with their clubs falling behind the European elite.

Every supporter would like his club to win the Champions League. But Dutch people aren't as bothered by it as you would think, at all. The popularity of Dutch football hasn't declined at all in my country. Everybody has mostly accepted that it has become a talent development league. The Dutch take pride in that, and see the Dutch national team as an outcome of that. Considering how small of a country we are we have nothing to be ashamed of when it comes to football. Succes, when it comes to results, isn't the most important thing in Dutch football, it's secondary. And I love watching the Dutch league just as much as I did when Ajax won it's last Champions League, so I'm not too bothered by it either.

As you have admitted yourself, they don't need you

I didn't actually mean it that conclusive. Because basically we don't need them either. It's just that we would benefit more from it than they would, but they'd still benefit from it. De Bundesliga is doing very well, but there's still plenty of room for improvement. And it would improve with the addition of Dutch clubs.



I see you edited your post, and deleted what I responded to above. I'm going to leave it in because it deserves a response.

Sorry to say, but I feel that you have a narrow view on the issue. The idea is to create a league competition with the financial power of at least the French League One. I am aware of the meaning of the words Benelux, Scandinavia and United Kingdom.

Not a narrow view, a Dutch view. You asked for it.
I actually think you have a narrow view, you only see a hypothetical financial side of things.

As for the weather issues, I have already suggested the Brazilian competition format. The regional league would take place in the spring (in this case, March-April-May), so the national leagues will have the other 9 months on their disposal.

So we'd completely change a playing shedule which fits in perfectly with the international and European football calendar. Not going to happen. And the weather in those countries is still bad in March.

Not a narrow view, a Dutch view. You asked for it.

And I am thankful for it.

So we'd completely change a playing shedule which fits in perfectly with the international and European football calendar. Not going to happen. And the weather in those countries is still bad in March.

Not much to change with the playing schedule, really. The Dutch league would still run from August to February with 12 clubs, with the top 2 clubs qualifying for the regional league and continuing there in March, and the other clubs continuing their competition in the national league. To give the other clubs an incentive for the continued competition without the top clubs, the winner(s) of that continued competition on national level would get the Europa League spot(s).

As for the weather in Scandinavia, the average temperature in the most populated areas there in March is at 4-5 °C, so hardly a problem for a football competition.

I know that from a geographical point of view, a regional league including only Dutch, Belgian and Scottish clubs makes more sense, but I have deliberately included the Scandinavian leagues, because the strong market there, with the higher spending power, would give this regional league a much bigger financial boost.

It's a shame that none of our Scandinavian friends at these boards still haven't posted their views on the idea.

Don't know where you get your figures from but you're wrong. Finland especially is really cold still, but all those countries are below zero on average in March. Sweden starts their competition in April for good reason, and Finland starts it in May for good reason. Finland is still completely covered in snow in March. And if you add possible European football to that with all the travelling, and World and Euro championships early in June. Don't see it happening. But that's not even the real reason why it would never happen. You're very hung up on the financial side of things, but there's alot more to it than that.

Don't know where you get your figures from but you're wrong. Finland especially is really cold still, but all those countries are below zero on average in March. Sweden starts their competition in April for good reason, and Finland starts it in May for good reason. Finland is still completely covered in snow in March.

Well then, the good thing is that I haven't included Finland in my proposal at all.

As for the other Scandinavian countries, you are wrong: http://www.wmo.int

You're very hung up on the financial side of things, but there's alot more to it than that.

Mate, I like you romantic approach to the game of football. Unfortunately, it has very little to do with the modern day game.

Mate, I like you romantic approach to the game of football. Unfortunately, it has very little to do with the modern day game.

And that's where you are wrong. That's where you don't understand Dutch football culture, at all. It is not my approach, it's how almost everybody in my country feels about this. I told you before, it's not rational, it is very idealistic, but that's the Dutch football culture. That's not my opinion, it's my attempt of an unbiased view on Dutch football culture. I've discussed this with Diego on here before, he was reading a book about it. Looked it up, it's called: Brilliant Orange: The Neurotic Genius of Dutch Football by David Winner. Diego might want to comment on this, but if you want to understand the Dutch football culture better, that might be a good start. Our approach to football is extremely idealistic.

And that's where you are wrong. That's where you don't understand Dutch football culture, at all. It is not my approach, it's how almost everybody in my country feels about this. I told you before, it's not rational, it is very idealistic, but that's the Dutch football culture. That's not my opinion, it's my attempt of an unbiased view on Dutch football culture. I've discussed this with Diego on here before, he was reading a book about it. Looked it up, it's called: Brilliant Orange: The Neurotic Genius of Dutch Football by David Winner. Diego might want to comment on this, but if you want to understand the Dutch football culture better, that might be a good start.

I understand and respect the Dutch football culture, but it is exactly the approach that is causing the Dutch club football to be falling behind the major European leagues, despite producing some of the finest players in Europe. The top players from the Dutch league are leaving at even younger age every season, and it would inevitably cause a fall in quality, in a not so distant future. You know, I am not exactly a German or English. I know what happens when the financial background of the league is not proportional with the level of talent. It has happened in the former Yugoslavia a long time ago.