North Sea League

Ah. I forgot. It's all about money.

Sorry I thought when you talked about ' from a traditional football point of view' you were meaning from a traditional point of view not a modern money making point of view.

Silly me eh.

Unfortunately, it is. And I was very clear about it.

From the traditional football point of view, it is as cruel idea as the creation of the English Premier League, at the expense of the other 72 clubs in the league system. I know it sucks, but it is the only way to remain competitive.

Unfortunately, it is. And I was very clear about it.

Sorry mate.

Just still trying to get a hang of this old reading lark

And that is why you should stop waiving around with press releases from the middle of the fiscal year, and wait until the proper annual financial report is published. A report that includes all the financial parameters like amortization of assets, club's debt and interests paid, total revenue and total spending. What you have posted above is not a financial report. It is merely a PR exercise. We have already seen a lot of these under G&H at LFC. Here is how a proper financial report looks like:

http://invinciblebastion.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/lfc-aa-2010.pdf

Not some press release on a single page.

That first link, the press statement, obviously is just a summary/introduction of the complete financial report. The whole thing consists of 4 links: 1, 2, 3, 4.  And that includes everything you mentioned when it comes to the figures.

But you're nicely avoiding there how you were full of sh*t about transfers being included. And now that I proved you wrong about that you come up with something else to try and prove your point. And comparing Ajax to Liverpool under G&H is laughable. The Ajax stockholders are Hicks and Gillette, they own the club. And seeing Ajax's recent past there is no reason whatsoever to believe that they're lying or misinforming their stockholders, as they haven't done that before. But I understand you rather assume that just so it suits your argument.

But feel free to explore all the reports from past years on the Ajax site. Here are the annual reports. And here are the annual figures, which are released earlier. The figures in all cases are exactly the same. They only release the figures early on to inform their stockholders, and then release a more extensive report later on.

Still, nothing you have said so far has convinced me that Ajax won't benefit hugely by participating in a regional league that includes Belgium, Scandinavia and Scotland. Quite the opposite, to be honest. Looking at those numbers, there is huge potential for additional TV and commercial revenue to be earned by Ajax. It is actually the Dutch league that is holding them back.

I guess that's as close I'll get to to you saying you've been full of sh*t. That's your tactic it seems, ignore everything you've been proven wrong about and disregard it like it doesn't matter. If it doesn't matter, then don't start arguing about it in the first place. I was merely pointing out that Ajax is doing better financially than ever, and they're still growing. Things aren't as bad as you make them out to be.

I guess that's as close I'll get to to you saying you've been full of sh*t. That's your tactic it seems, ignore everything you've been proven wrong about and disregard it like it doesn't matter. If it doesn't matter, then don't start arguing about it in the first place. I was merely pointing out that Ajax is doing better financially than ever, and they're still growing. Things aren't as bad as you make them out to be.

Of course they are. Ajax are one of the most successful clubs in the history of European football. And even if those numbers are correct, they still have only 22% of Real Madrid's revenue. Even worse, they have less revenue than the likes of Tottenham, Hamburg, Lyon, Marseille, Schalke, Atletico, Roma, Stuttgart, Aston Villa, Fiorentina, Dortmund, Bordeaux, Sevilla, Valencia and Benfica. Basically, Ajax are in the 3rd tier of the European club football at the moment. Of course, if you are satisfied with being in the 3rd tier, who am I to wish you a better future?

Jeopardising the majority of clubs, the employment opportunities they provide in each of their cities, the local tourism they attract, the breeding ground for thousands and thousands of young footballers for a fraction of profit.

You would be a ruthless, heartless pr**k to think this way. Something i would never of imagine you to be Mac regardless of my personal opinion of you. This is the kind of sh*t H&G tried to pull. Profit for us, nothing for you.

Jeopardising the majority of clubs, the employment opportunities they provide in each of their cities, the local tourism they attract, the breeding ground for thousands and thousands of young footballers for a fraction of profit.

You would be a ruthless, heartless pr**k to think this way. Something i would never of imagine you to be Mac regardless of my personal opinion of you. This is the kind of sh*t H&G tried to pull. Profit for us, nothing for you.

Well, that is a clear case of oversimplifying. I have already explained that it would be a combined competition system. No club will be guaranteed the participation in the regional North Sea League. They will have to earn the right to compete there, by winning one of the two top spots in their own national league, during the first half of the season. The likes of Ajax, Celtic or Anderlecht will be the favorites to qualify, but by no means guaranteed. Look at our own example: Couple of years ago, we were a dead cert for a CL spot. Now, not so much.

But Ajax's succes in the past was never related to their financial situation. The figures might have increased, but percentage wise there isn't that much difference. Ajax won 3 European cups in the 70's when they were still almost an amateur club, the only people on the pay roll were the players, manager and head of the club, the rest were volunteers. Madrid was already a massive club then, having won 6 Europan Cups before that. It seems a bit silly to compare to a club like that. The main reason why Ajax were able to compete for so long is because most foreign leagues had a strict limit to the amount of foreign players that were allowed in a team. Now those limits only apply to non europeans mostly. The European player market is more open.

But Ajax's succes in the past was never related to their financial situation. The figures might have increased, but percentage wise there isn't that much difference. Ajax won 3 European cups in the 70's when they were still almost an amateur club, the only people on the pay roll were the players, manager and head of the club, the rest were volunteers. Madrid was already a massive club then, having won 6 Europan Cups before that. It seems a bit silly to compare to a club like that. The main reason why Ajax were able to compete for so long is because most foreign leagues had a strict limit to the amount of foreign players that were allowed in a team. Now those limits only apply to non europeans mostly.

You have clearly missed what has happened with the European club football over the past couple of decades.

You have clearly missed what has happened with the European club football over the past couple of decades.

I have not missed anything. I know the sport has become more commericial and professional. But like I said, % wise the financial difference between Ajax and many top clubs has not increased that much. Ajax has always been a midget in giant land among European top clubs when it comes to fincances. But they were often able to keep most of their players because player traffic wasn't as free as it is now with the EU. I remember when Van Basten, Gullit and Rijkaard played at Milan, they were the only 3 foreigners allowed to play in the first 11. Not that Milan didn't have enough money back then to buy more foreign players, but they weren't allowed to.

Here is the ranking of the top 20 European leagues, in terms of financial power:

01. England (52,000,000)
02. Spain (46,000,000)
03. Italy (60,000,000)
04. Germany (82,000,000)
05. France (63,000,000)
XX. North Sea League (52,500,000)
06. Russia (143,000,000)
07. Turkey (74,000,000)
08. Portugal (10,500,000)
09. Ukraine (46,000,000)
10. Netherlands (16,500,000)
11. Greece (11,000,000)
12. Belgium (11,000,000)
13. Scotland (5,000,000)
14. Switzerland (8,000,000)
15. Denmark (5,500,000)
16. Austria (8,500,000)
17. Romania (22,000,000)
18. Poland (38,000,000)
19. Norway (5,000,000)
20. Sweden (9,500,000)

Of course, the numbers in the brackets are not about money.

And you put the North Sea League in that hypothetical position based on what exactly?

And you put the North Sea League in that hypothetical position based on what exactly?

Current UEFA rankings of top 2 teams from all 6 participant countries, the average stadium capacity of those 12 teams, the number of inhabitants (potential customers) in all 6 countries together and their spending power (based on GDP per capita).

But obviously the number of inhabitants and their spending power wouldn't fully translate like that. As a major part of the money would continue to go to their own national leagues or what is left of it. And many of those other club's fans will not support or have much interest in other clubs in the North Sea league. And it's unlikely that those 6 weekly games in the North Sea league would generate more than the 48 games that would normally be played.

But obviously the number of inhabitants and their spending power wouldn't fully translate like that. As a major part of the money would continue to go to their own national leagues or what is left of it. And many of those other club's fans will not support or have much interest in other clubs in the North Sea league. And it's not likely that those 6 weekly games in the North Sea league would generate more than the 50+ games that would normall be played.

Since it will take place for the half of the season, with only 2 teams from each country participating, I have used the 50% ratio. If we are talking about a full season, with the full economic capacity of the countries calculated, with 3 participants from every country, it would be the above the French League 1. But I am deliberately avoiding that scenario, since my proposal is based on the Brazilian competition model, and that is essential to the sustainability of the entire idea, without a serious damage to the national leagues.

Your figures are a direct correlation of what is happening now in those leagues.

What you forget is, 90% of the clubs in those leagues will diminish with your theory and the revenue will decrease substantially. So much so, i would expect separate deals being negotiated and a collapse of a central governing body in terms of policing inflow and outflow of cash and the implementation of certain rules needed to stabilise a league system.

Your figures are a direct correlation of what is happening now in those leagues.

No, my figures are in a direct correlation with what is happening now at specific clubs in those leagues. We are talking about clubs that are having the biggest fan bases in their respective countries, and are covering the biggest share of their national TV and commercial market. We are also talking about accumulation of (already existing) quality here. We have covered the financial aspects of the proposal, but we are yet to discuss the improved quality of the game in the regional league, compared to the quality in the (existing) national leagues. Of course, the improved quality will bring an improved public interest.

Still that 50% is too generous and unrealistic. Of the target group many people would loose interest in the North Sea League when their club isn't in it, which would count for the majority of supporters. It's very unlikely that a setup like that would generate more money in total than all those leagues together normally would, I'd say it would be clearly the opposite.. As I said, 6 games won't be able to compete with 48 games, economically. And I'd say by relegating 6 teams, and the remaining teams having 12 games less to play, the league would be damaged quite seriously.

What you forget is, 90% of the clubs in those leagues will diminish with your theory and the revenue will decrease substantially. So much so, i would expect separate deals being negotiated and a collapse of a central governing body in terms of policing inflow and outflow of cash and the implementation of certain rules needed to stabilise a league system.

Why would those clubs diminish? The top clubs will be still playing in their respective national leagues. The collective TV deals on national level would still exist. Yes, the TV and commercial revenue will decrease slightly for the weakest clubs, but not substantially.

No, my figures are in a direct correlation with what is happening now at specific clubs in those leagues. We are talking about clubs that are having the biggest fan bases in their respective countries, and are covering the biggest share of their national TV and commercial market. We are also talking about accumulation of (already existing) quality here. We have covered the financial aspects of the proposal, but we are yet to discuss the improved quality of the game in the regional league, compared to the quality in the (existing) national leagues. Of course, the improved quality will bring an improved public interest.

What improved interest? It would be the same people supporting the same clubs. The only new fans to these clubs would be the ones who naturally attach themselves to a new club once your theory would destroy most other clubs.

Still that 50% is too generous and unrealistic.

It isn't. Look at the GDP per capita rankings. In those terms, we are talking about some of the richest countries in the World here. That is one of the reasons why the Scandinavian countries are included. Try thinking outside the box called Eredivisie.

What improved interest? It would be the same people supporting the same clubs.

Not really. I watch Bundesliga regularly, and I am paying for the pleasure. I support no team there. We are obviously talking about completely different things here. You are talking about match-going supporters. I am talking about the 95 percent of the football fans. The TV audience.