North Sea League

I understand and respect the Dutch football culture, but it is exactly the approach that is causing the Dutch club football to be falling behind the major European leagues, despite producing some of the finest players in Europe. The top players from the Dutch league are leaving at even younger age every season, and it would inevitably cause a fall in quality, in a not so distant future. You know, I am not exactly a German or English. I know what happens when the financial background of the league is not proportional with the level of talent. It has happened in the former Yugoslavia a long time ago.

Sure, but without this approach the Dutch league wouldn't be producing the type of players they are in the first place. And they're not leaving at a younger age. Besides the very few teens that leave for big clubs early on at the age of 16, who all fail thus far. But that's an issue everywhere. But the ones that stay are the smart ones, the ones that don't choose short term money, but long term success. Players like Bergkamp and Seedorf left at a very young age too. The only difference now is that players don't come back anymore when they're old, because the financial gap has become too big. And I actually think most of the fall in quality has happened. The quality seems to stabilise, the performances in Europe show the same. I'm not worried at all.

So you start a thread just to tell everyone you're right about it all as usual. Why am I not surprised?

Sure, but without this approach the Dutch league wouldn't be producing the type of players they are in the first place. And they're not leaving at a younger age.

I am not so sure. In recent years, you have lost some very talented young players like Elia, Van Wolfswinkel, Dembele, Tiote or Castaignos. I think that even more worrying is the fact that some of the best players from the Dutch league are no longer joining the clubs in England, Spain, Italy or Germany. Instead, they are ending up in Russia or Portugal, leagues that were inferior to the Eredivisie, not so long ago.

I am not so sure. In recent years, you have lost some very talented young players like Elia, Van Wolfswinkel, Dembele, Tiote or Castaignos. I think that even more worrying is the fact that some of the best players from the Dutch league are no longer joining the clubs in England, Spain, Italy or Germany. Instead, they are ending up in Russia or Portugal, leagues that were inferior to the Eredivisie, not so long ago.

Don't really agree about the players you mentioned. Elia had a brilliant season, won player of the year I believe. He wanted to go to Ajax, but Ajax didn't want him, so he left to HSV. Van Wolfswinkel wasn't doing well last season, besides his good start in Europe. He was regularly benched later on in the season, issues with the manager, the club wanted to get rid of him. Ajax and PSV did actually buy strikers, but they bought 2 better strikers. Matavz and Sigthorsson. They didn't loose out on Van Wolfswinkel, nobody wanted him. Dembele was initially regarded as a big talent, but it never really came out in the Dutch league, he wasn't very productive and stagnated. And then AZ's owner went bankrupt and the club had to sell all their expensive players, including Dembele. Tioté wasn't really highly regarded here. Mostly because he wasn't the type of player Twente needed, and his type of player doesn't really fit in Dutch league football. His last season there he played 38 games, but 22 as a substitute, that says it all. Castaignos, I don't know, that's more a Feyenoord problem. Massive debt as a result of bad policy, which they're coming out of by selling the loads of talent they have there, pushing them out the door. They sold Wijnaldum to PSV, and Fer to Twente too this summer. Either way, for all of those players there's plenty of new talent.

I'm not too bothered about Russia, those are sugar daddy clubs. if Eto'o joins them then I don't see why players from Dutch clubs wouldn't. And the Portuguese league has never been that inferior, they've been similar as a football country in many aspects for a while now. And they have an edge with all the Brazillian import.

Nah evry country for its self

But do you think it would mess that up? I don't think it would, the opposite. I think it would make the league even more popular, and commercially more succesful. And they wouldn't loose alot of the rivalries, as I wouldn't expect more than about 6 Dutch clubs to be in the top division. And they actually bring new rivalries. There's a big regional rivalry between Schalke and Twente. And a decades old rivalry between Bayern and Ajax, dating back to the Beckenbauer-Cruijff era.

No, i agreed with everything you said before but the German brand of football doesn't really need it to happen so i don't think they will consider it.

The natural rivalry between the two nations would be enough to create the basis for a merge but again, German league football is a healthy brand. If this was in decline than a merge could well be a viable option but until then maybe not.

I've enjoyed all your posts on here too by the way. Informative about the Dutch system and ideology. Dare i say one side of the debate in this thread is too closed-minded to realise what your saying is fact, not opinion and as such disproving any valid grounds for a 'North Sea League'.

Any kind of attempt to create a new league would mean scrapping the domestic leagues. No club will participate in a domestic league, a 'North Sea League' and a European competition at the same time on top of domestic cup competitions.

The only basis for the creation of this league would mean to create a multi-tier system that would be far too deep to even consider. What would happen to current 3rd tier teams in these nations? Would they all of a sudden be 15-20 tiers away from top class football instead of 2? And on what basis would the new league be formed, on money, success or the size of the club?

It's preposterous idea, a pipe dream. It would not only be a massive task, but an inconvenient one.

Any kind of attempt to create a new league would mean scrapping the domestic leagues. No club will participate in a domestic league, a 'North Sea League' and a European competition at the same time on top of domestic cup competitions.

The only basis for the creation of this league would mean to create a multi-tier system that would be far too deep to even consider. What would happen to current 3rd tier teams in these nations? Would they all of a sudden be 15-20 tiers away from top class football instead of 2? And on what basis would the new league be formed, on money, success or the size of the club?

It's preposterous idea, a pipe dream. It would not only be a massive task, but an inconvenient one.

It has worked brilliantly in other sports, with the clubs participating in the national leagues, the regional leagues and the European competitions. By the way, I have nothing against the football traditionalists and romantics. In fact, I share many of their ideas, due to my age, and the way I have learned the game of football. Unfortunately, they are quickly becoming a thing of the past.

It seems that I haven't explained the competition system well. As I have said, it would be based on the Brazilian model. In the first half of the season, the clubs will participate in their own national leagues. In order to create better quality, the national leagues will have 12 clubs. The top 2 teams from all 6 leagues would qualify for the regional league, and the other 10 teams from every league would continue their competition on national level. This way, the teams participating in the regional league will play 44 league matches per season (22 in the domestic league, plus 22 in the regional league), and the teams not participating in the regional league would be playing 40 league matches per season (22 in the first half of the season, plus 18 in the second half of the season).

Weather has been mentioned as one of the limiting factors. Personally, I don't see it as a big problem, especially with the new technologies of the under-soil heating. Even better, the financial muscle of the Scandinavian economies will easily allow for the fully covered stadiums to be built for the Scandinavian clubs, especially if they are participating in a higher level of competition. In fact, the work on these stadiums have already started.

http://www.swedbankarena.se/en/about_the_arena.asp

No other sport has the same model as football.

Scenario A:

Scrap domestic leagues for a North Sea League. This would entail a review of a system to organise the current 200+ divisions of football within the North Sea and place each team in order from top to bottom. If that weren't hard enough, the number of football teams within this region is nearly 10,000.

Furthermore, this would require amateur clubs potentially having to pay for expenses to travel across Europe week to week and face the burden of extra financial pressures which clubs of that stature simply couldn't afford. Not to mention footballers at this level cannot afford to travel  this much while holding down a regular job and ensure they have an income enough to support not only themselves but their families.


Scenario B:

Continue all current domestic leagues and create a separate competition entitled 'The North Sea League'. The participants of each league be put in to a new competition and played out over potentially 2 - 3 months. This would mean no post season break, no time to rest and a football schedule that would continue year round non stop.

How would you qualify for this? Would it be determined from only the top teams in each country? An invitational competition?


Scenario C:

Scrap this idea and realise there is already two European cup competitions with more revenue this new league would ever make and more fan interest you would get for a match between a Scandinavian and Welsh team for example (without disrespecting each club in these nation.).

No other sport has the same model as football.

Scenario A:

Scrap domestic leagues for a North Sea League. This would entail a review of a system to organise the current 200+ divisions of football within the North Sea and place each team in order from top to bottom. If that weren't hard enough, the number of football teams within this region is nearly 10,000.

Furthermore, this would require amateur clubs potentially having to pay for expenses to travel across Europe week to week and face the burden of extra financial pressures which clubs of that stature simply couldn't afford. Not to mention footballers at this level cannot afford to travel  this much while holding down a regular job and ensure they have an income enough to support not only themselves but their families.


Scenario B:

Continue all current domestic leagues and create a separate competition entitled 'The North Sea League'. The participants of each league be put in to a new competition and played out over potentially 2 - 3 months. This would mean no post season break, no time to rest and a football schedule that would continue year round non stop.

How would you qualify for this? Would it be determined from only the top teams in each country? An invitational competition?


Scenario C:

Scrap this idea and realise there is already two European cup competitions with more revenue this new league would ever make and more fan interest you would get for a match between a Scandinavian and Welsh team for example (without disrespecting each club in these nation.).

I have already edited my previous post and explained the competition system.

It seems that I haven't explained the competition system well. As I have said, it would be based on the Brazilian model. In the first half of the season, the clubs will participate in their own national leagues. In order to create better quality, the national leagues will have 12 clubs. The top 2 teams from all 6 leagues would qualify for the regional league, and the other 10 teams from every league would continue their competition on national level. This way, the teams participating in the regional league will play 44 league matches per season (22 in the domestic league, plus 22 in the regional league), and the teams not participating in the regional league would be playing 40 league matches per season (22 in the first half of the season, plus 18 in the second half of the season).

Weather has been mentioned as one of the limiting factors. Personally, I don't see it as a big problem, especially with the new technologies of the under-soil heating. Even better, the financial muscle of the Scandinavian economies will easily allow for the fully covered stadiums to be built for the Scandinavian clubs, especially if they are participating in a higher level of competition. In fact, the work on these stadiums have already started.

http://www.swedbankarena.se/en/about_the_arena.asp

By the way, who mentioned Welsh clubs? Their top 2 clubs are already integrated into the English league system.

You did in the map highlighting Wales.

Again, a massive pipe dream that isn't feasible and not idealistic.

You did in the map highlighting Wales.

There are many other countries on that map. I have clearly stated in the opening post what countries would be included:

We can see that the overall quality of the league football in Holland, Belgium, Scotland, Denmark, Norway and Sweden is average, despite having some good clubs like Ajax, PSV, Anderlecht, Brugge, Rangers, Celtic, Copenhagen, Brondby, Rosenborg, Valerenga, Malmo and Goteborg.

Again, a massive pipe dream that isn't feasible and not idealistic.

Again, a massive pipe dream that isn't feasible and not idealistic.

As for someone coming from Australia, I would have expected more understanding about the idea.

As for someone coming from Australia, I would have expected more understanding about the idea.

And how is that comparable? Rugby was an amateur sport untill not too long ago. They made Super Rugby to be able to make the sport professional. Those teams are the best in the world. It's similar to a Champions League in football.

It was a 6 team competition that was then extended to 10 and eventually 12 then 16.

This was because of the lack of competition and marketability within the sport. It was extended from just New Zealand, Australia and Fiji to include more teams and the introduction of South African teams.

Where wikipedia has failed you in getting a piss poor excuse for a come back is that the inability of this league to create enough depth in the sport. In Australia, university teams and are the second tier of Rugby where most players have second jobs and no contract.

Unlike football and rugby league within this country, Rugby has selected avenues to pick and choose it's players. Football has junior club football, district rep teams, youth development teams, youth club teams and then first team football. Rugby League follows the same path but has an under 20s league of it's own which is the breeding ground for youth rugby league and they also have separate competition for over 20s who aren't selected for first grade Rugby League.

Lay off Wikipedia.

It was a 6 team competition that was then extended to 10 and eventually 12 then 16.

This was because of the lack of competition and marketability within the sport. It was extended from just New Zealand, Australia and Fiji to include more teams and the introduction of South African teams.

Where wikipedia has failed you in getting a piss poor excuse for a come back is that the inability of this league to create enough depth in the sport. In Australia, university teams and are the second tier of Rugby where most players have second jobs and no contract.

Unlike football and rugby league within this country, Rugby has selected avenues to pick and choose it's players. Football has junior club football, district rep teams, youth development teams, youth club teams and then first team football. Rugby League follows the same path but has an under 20s league of it's own which is the breeding ground for youth rugby league and they also have separate competition for over 20s who aren't selected for first grade Rugby League.

Lay off Wikipedia.

Actually, I get my info about the league from here http://www.superxv.com , but that logo from Wikipedia has looked much better.

Anyway, thank you for confirming the feasibility of my idea about the North Sea League, even though you have used some abusive language again.

What's abusive? Please put my abusive language in bold text

I have confirmed what your trying to convince is feasible is in actuality a pipe dream. Your only comparison has been a system implemented by three nations to counter a struggling sport on a professional basis. Football is a healthy business, rugby is not.

This will never happen, but looking at just the financial side, I don't think there would be much financial gain for Dutch clubs, not enough to take such a risk. And there is a big risk that it would damage Dutch football. The slightest changes in the past had big consequences when it comes to popularity. With the Europa League, that doesn't get lucrative untill after the group stages. During group stages clubs are lucky to break even. With the Europa League, the group stages here don't get alot of attention, unless they play a European top team, which none in that North Sea league are.  A North Sea League would get even less international attention, and even less prestige than the Europa League. So basically, even less money for tv rights. For clubs like Ajax, PSV, Twente etc, the Dutch league gets more media exposure here, and fills the stadiums more than when they play in the Europa League. Twente played a Danish team this week for the Europa League, Odense. They didn't even air it on tv. And Twente's manager literally said it felt like a training match. And there really isn't much to gain in the Scandinavian market, as Dutch football is already very popular there, and already gets alot of attention there. There isn't much to gain in the Belgian market either. I think for all clubs the most interesting markets are the ones that are still growing and haven't been conquered yet.

This will never happen, but looking at just the financial side, I don't think there would be much financial gain for Dutch clubs, not enough to take such a risk. And there is a big risk that it would damage Dutch football. The slightest changes in the past had big consequences when it comes to popularity. With the Europa League, that doesn't get lucrative untill after the group stages. During group stages clubs are lucky to break even. With the Europa League, the group stages here don't get alot of attention, unless they play a European top team, which none in that North Sea league are.  A North Sea League would get even less international attention, and even less prestige than the Europa League. So basically, even less money for tv rights. For clubs like Ajax, PSV, Twente etc, the Dutch league gets more media exposure here, and fills the stadiums more than when they play in the Europa League. Twente played a Danish team this week for the Europa League, Odense. They didn't even air it on tv. And Twente's manager literally said it felt like a training match. And there really isn't much to gain in the Scandinavian market, as Dutch football is already very popular there, and already gets alot of attention there. There isn't much to gain in the Belgian market either. I think for all clubs the most interesting markets are the ones that are still growing and haven't been conquered yet.

This is where you get it wrong, mate. As you have pointed out in another thread, the top Dutch clubs are suffering financially, when they fail to qualify for the later stages of the Champions League. In my opinion, that is very normal, since the Dutch market itself is pretty limited, even with the 16-17 million potential consumers there. Now, it is fairly safe to assume that the top Dutch clubs, especially PSV and Ajax, would be amongst the top clubs in the regional North Sea league, and they would be able to further exploit the 55-million market of the league. As you have already said, the Dutch clubs are fairly popular in Scandinavia, but that is mostly because of the presence of the Scandinavian players at the Ditch clubs. The English Premier League clubs are still the most popular in the Scandinavian region (apart from the local teams, of course), with the greatest financial benefits from that popularity. By directly competing in the region, the Dutch, Belgian and Scottish clubs will conquer a bigger slice of the strong Scandinavian market.

This is where you get it wrong, mate. As you have pointed out in another thread, the top Dutch clubs are suffering financially, when they fail to qualify for the later stages of the Champions League. In my opinion, that is very normal, since the Dutch market itself is pretty limited, even with the 16-17 million potential consumers there. Now, it is fairly safe to assume that the top Dutch clubs, especially PSV and Ajax, would be amongst the top clubs in the regional North Sea league, and they would be able to further exploit the 55-million market of the league. As you have already said, the Dutch clubs are fairly popular in Scandinavia, but that is mostly because of the presence of the Scandinavian players at the Ditch clubs. The English Premier League clubs are still the most popular in the Scandinavian region (apart from the local teams, of course), with the greatest financial benefits from that popularity. By directly competing in the region, the Dutch, Belgian and Scottish clubs will conquer a bigger slice of the strong Scandinavian market.

You're just grasping for anything now aren't you. Even stuff I post in other threads. I didn't point out Dutch top clubs are suffering financially, I mentioned only PSV. And if you would've understood what I said, then you would know that they're suffering because of their bad policy. No Dutch club ever expects to qualify for the latter stages of the Champions League. PSV hasn't finished in the top 2 of the Dutch League in the past 3 seasons, and haven't qualified for Champions League at all because of that for the past 3 seasons. You can use this against Dutch football. but as I pointed out in that other thread, a similar thing is happening to Olympique Lyon.

And you're probably right about the Scandinavian region as a whole, but when it comes to Denmark Ajax is already the most popular foreign club there. And it really isn't that big of a market, as like you said also Scottish and Belgian clubs will be competing for it too. Norway and Sweden is 10 million people total. Not sure where you get this 55 million number from, would think you wouldn't include any countries that aren't even part of the league. And meanwhile, like I pointed out earlier, this competition will be less popular in Holland than the original Dutch league.

later added:

The 55 million could be right as a total actually. I was confused with just Flanders, and forgot about Sweden. Although I'd personally only see Norway and Sweden as interesting markets. Don't think there's much to gain in Belgium, Denmark, or Scotland. And plenty to loose in the Dutch market.

You're just grasping for anything now aren't you. Even stuff I post in other threads. I didn't point out Dutch top clubs are suffering financially, I mentioned only PSV. And if you would've understood what I said, then you would know that they're suffering because of their bad policy. No Dutch club ever expects to qualify for the latter stages of the Champions League. PSV hasn't finished in the top 2 of the Dutch League in the past 3 seasons, and haven't qualified for Champions League at all because of that for the past 3 seasons. You can use this against Dutch football. but as I pointed out in that other thread, a similar thing is happening to Olympique Lyon.

And you're probably right about the Scandinavian region as a whole, but when it comes to Denmark Ajax is already the most popular foreign club there. And it really isn't that big of a market, as like you said also Scottish and Belgian clubs will be competing for it too. Norway and Sweden is 10 million people total. Not sure where you get this 55 million number from, would think you wouldn't include any countries that aren't even part of the league. And meanwhile, like I pointed out earlier, this competition will be less popular in Holland than the original Dutch league.

Netherlands + Belgium + Scotland + Denmark + Norway + Sweden = 55 million inhabitants.

By the way, you are obviously not very familiar with the basics of the marketing, and the sports marketing in particular. The entire North West European market is more compatible that you would ever imagine. Combine that with the Dutch influence in terms of football tactics and philosophy, and you get a perfectly logical regional league. Apart from the Scottish clubs maybe, who are coming from a different school of football.

Ofcourse Mac Red. That seems to be your usual conclusion. Obviously we mere mortals know less, and your knowledge is far superior.

Ofcourse Mac Red. That seems to be your usual conclusion. Obviously we mere mortals know less, and your knowledge is far superior.

I am not trying to patronize you. I am just pointing out what I have learned over the years. The entire North Sea region is dominated by companies of pretty much the same industries. Banking, Insurance, Oil, Gas, Shipping, Fishing. Just some of the industries that are based in all of the 6 countries that I have suggested as participants in the North Sea League.