North Sea League

By the way, you are obviously not very familiar with the basics of the marketing, and the sports marketing in particular.

As Bill Hick's would of said just kill yourself!

Bill Hicks on Marketing

I am not trying to patronize you. I am just pointing out what I have learned over the years. The entire North Sea region is dominated by companies of pretty much the same industries. Banking, Insurance, Oil, Gas, Shipping, Fishing. Just some of the industries that are based in all of the 6 countries that I have suggested as participants in the North Sea League.

Exactly. Like I said, you're saying your knowledge is superior than mine. Why else would you do that than to patronise me? I mean, it's not exactly a good argument is it. I could easily do the same. You've clearly shown that your knowledge on Dutch football and culture is insufficient, and are using anything to back up your argument, as the PSV thing just showed. Tunnel vision.

And I've already said to you, that the Dutch FA has already several times researched a merge with the Belgium League, but each time found that it wouldn't be lucrative. But your marketing knowlegde is far superior than theirs too.

And just because a commercial market is similar or compatible, doesn't mean the football market is too. I'll say it again, Dutch people are not interested in Scandinavian football teams. Even less than in Scottish teams, at least Celtic and Rangers have some kind of heritage, even if their football is horrible to watch. But the Scandinavian market would increase at the cost of the Dutch market. Brilliant idea.

Exactly. Like I said, you're saying your knowledge is superior than mine. Why else would you do that than to patronise me? I mean, it's not exactly a good argument is it. I could easily do the same. You've clearly shown that your knowledge on Dutch football and culture is insufficient, and are using anything to back up your argument, as the PSV thing just showed. Tunnel vision.

And I've already said to you, that the Dutch FA has already several times researched a merge with the Belgium League, but each time found that it wouldn't be lucrative. But your marketing knowlegde is far superior than theirs too.

And just because a commercial market is similar or compatible, doesn't mean the football market is too. I'll say it again, Dutch people are not interested in Scandinavian football teams. Even less than in Scottish teams, at least Celtic and Rangers have some kind of heritage, even if their football is horrible to watch. But the Scandinavian market would increase at the cost of the Dutch market. Brilliant idea.

You are trying to turn this into a fight, so I would politely drop this argument. I have suggested an idea, and you've made it your mission to discredit it. Personally, I am not too bothered if the Dutch club football continues to drop down. It would be a shame, since Feyenoord, Ajax and PSV used to be European powerhouses in the past. But, the times have changed, and the game is still interesting, even without the Dutch clubs being at the highest level.

By the way, the Dutch FA and the clubs are not exactly against the idea, even though it was suggested in a different format.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/oct/14/north-atlantic-league-celtic-rangers
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/oct/15/atlantic-league-old-firm-celtic-rangers

I wasn't untill you started acting like you have superior knowledge, as you usually do on here it seems. That's not an attitude that I appreciate. Don't ask for people's opinions when you already have everything figured out, and won't accept anything that doesn't agree with your vision.

I'm not bothered by the decline either, it happens. More clubs have declined over the years. And I'm sure other smaller clubs will rise. But if  European Super League will happen, which it probably will at some point, then Ajax will be in at least.

And it's nice that Van Praag thinks that, but he knows very well that Ajax doesn't want that, Ajax= Dutch football.

And it's nice that Van Praag thinks that, but he knows very well that Ajax doesn't want that, Ajax= Dutch football.

So, the current President of the Royal Netherlands Football Association, member of UEFA's Executive Committee and Chairman of UEFA's Club Competitions Committee, who was Ajax's President for 4 years, and who's father was Ajax's President for 14 years, including the glory years in the 70's, doesn't knows what Ajax want, but you know what they want.

And you are calling me arrogant. 

So, the current President of the Royal Netherlands Football Association, member of UEFA's Executive Committee and Chairman of UEFA's Club Competitions Committee, who was Ajax's President for 4 years, and who's father was Ajax's President for 14 years, including the glory years in the 70's, doesn't knows what Ajax want, but you know what they want.

And you are calling me arrogant. 

Yes, actually. Ajax are against it, it's not a coincidence that just PSV and Feyenoord are mentioned. Ajax already were against it back in 2000 too, when Van Praag was still chairman at Ajax. You see, he never had much influence there, people like Cruyff control that club. But it doesn't really matter, because after that Van Praag said he was misquoted about this whole thing in the first place. And the director of football of the KNVB, Henk Kesler, also said it's a misunderstanding, and said there's no interest in an Attlantic League. he even spoke out against it. And Van Praag even send a letter to the Scottish FA because of them publishing misinformation. It mostly all stems from Platini, who wants to see a BeNeLiga. But good on you that you know who Van Praag is.

Yes, actually. Ajax are against it, it's not a coincidence that just PSV and Feyenoord are mentioned. Ajax already were against it back in 2000 too. But it doesn't really matter, because after that Van Praag said he was misquoted about this whole thing in the first place. And the director of football of the KNVB, Henk Kesler, also said it's a misunderstanding, and said there's no interest in an Attlantic League. Van Praag even send a letter to the Scottish FA because of the misinformation. It mostly all stems from Platini, who wants to see a BeNeLiga.

So basically, Van Praag has started back-peddling, once the Dutch football traditionalists (like yourself) have attacked him heavily for supporting the idea. Anyway, if it is supported by Platini, it will happen sooner or later.

Money talks, mate. You should have learned that by now.

So basically, Van Praag has started back-peddling, once the Dutch football traditionalist (like yourself) have attacked him heavily for supporting the idea. Still, if it is supported by Platini, it will happen sooner or later.

Money talks, mate. You should have learned that by now.

He started back peddling because he ran his mouth. His opinion actually isn't worth anything. What he says doesn't represent the view of Dutch clubs. Same for Platini, it's nothing more than an opinion. But Van Praag has since said that they're not even further looking into it anymore, because too many people are against.

And you should've learned by now that Dutch football culture isn't just about money. But I guess you'll never get that.

Money talks, mate. You should have learned that by now.

Seems you haven't.

He's saying crystal clear, Dutch football doesn't need this to happen to become more profitable.

If money talks, the Dutch FA are looking at it from that exact angle and seeing with their own eyes after countless research that a North Sea League will not be a profitable move for them.

And it's not just about the top 6 or however many clubs that would join that league. Even if they would slightly profit from it, the other 12 teams would be fu**ed.

Seems you haven't.

He's saying crystal clear, Dutch football doesn't need this to happen to become more profitable.

If money talks, the Dutch FA are looking at it from that exact angle and seeing with their own eyes after countless research that a North Sea League will not be a profitable move for them.

Actually, if you read the statements from their FA officials at the time, like the KNVB director Henk Kesler, they were very much "exploring the possibilities for cross-border competitions", to use his exact words. I can understand why are they doing that, since they are obviously falling back financially, compared to the European top leagues. A competition is profitable, as long as the sponsors and TV companies are interested. In this case, there is an interest from the sponsors and TV companies, but there is a strong opposition from the football traditionalists. We all know the outcome of that battle.

And it's not just about the top 6 or however many clubs that would join that league. Even if they would slightly profit from it, the other 12 teams would be fu**ed.

You are obviously not reading my posts, yet you are replying to them:

It seems that I haven't explained the competition system well. As I have said, it would be based on the Brazilian model. In the first half of the season, the clubs will participate in their own national leagues. In order to create better quality, the national leagues will have 12 clubs. The top 2 teams from all 6 leagues would qualify for the regional league, and the other 10 teams from every league would continue their competition on national level. This way, the teams participating in the regional league will play 44 league matches per season (22 in the domestic league, plus 22 in the regional league), and the teams not participating in the regional league would be playing 40 league matches per season (22 in the first half of the season, plus 18 in the second half of the season).

Basically, I am suggesting a mini regional Champions League here, that would benefit the top 2 clubs from all 6 leagues, but would not harm the other 10 clubs from every league. It is a money making exercise that would not damage the domestic competition system.

Ofcourse they're always looking at options to improve income. But that doesn't mean that this would be a good way to do so. Merging with other competitions has been a subject of discussion even back when Ajax was still succesful. And it's not so much that Dutch football is collapsing financially, but more that they're not going through the same growth as the bigger leagues, Dutch football reached it's ceiling early on.

And how do you know there is that much interest from sponsors and TV companies? I wonder where those are then with the Europa League, since that's such an amazingly lucrative competition for clubs. I'm not the only here that thinks most of the Europa League is sh*t, right? A North Sea League would be far worse.

You are obviously not reading my posts, yet you are replying to them:

Basically, I am suggesting a mini regional Champions League here, that would benefit the top 2 clubs from all 6 leagues, but would not harm the other 10 clubs from every league. It is a money making exercise that would not damage the domestic competition system.

So what you are suggesting is a money making exercise, that would benefit the the top 2 clubs in the 6 nominated leagues.

How would this not harm the other 10 clubs in those leagues. Are you suggesting that these financially better off teams would not spend their rewards on improving the squads to maintain their top 2 league status to continue to carry on their money making exercise.

Which is exactly what has happened with the majority of Champions League teams. Or are you saying that these CL regulars have not benefited from the Millions they get.

Contradiction in terms.

You are obviously not reading my posts, yet you are replying to them:

Basically, I am suggesting a mini regional Champions League here, that would benefit the top 2 clubs from all 6 leagues, but would not harm the other 10 clubs from every league. It is a money making exercise that would not damage the domestic competition system.

I did read it, but that doesn't make it realistic. If you think that Dutch clubs would find it acceptable to have the same ammount of teams in there as those Scandinavian clubs, then think again.

And it would still harm those 6 clubs that are out, and the other clubs that don't qualify aswell. You can twist it however you like it, this would have a huge effect on the Dutch league and it's popularity. It would create a weird situation, they'd be qualifying for something that draws less interest than the actual league.

And how do you know there is that much interest from sponsors and TV companies? I wonder where those are then with the Europa League, since that's such an amazingly lucrative competition for clubs. I'm not the only here that thinks most of the Europa League is sh*t, right? A North Sea League would be far worse.

Well, I am aware that the Sky generation knows very little about the old Cup Winners' Cup or the old UEFA Cup (I am not discussing the Inter-Cities Fairs Cup, since I am too young to remember it), but they were actually some very interesting and quality competitions. In terms of sponsorship and TV rights, the Europa League actually has some pretty good backing, since SEAT, ADIDAS and PES are not exactly some small players in the market, and the TV rights have been sold everywhere around the World.

Anyway, I am stopping this discussion with you now, since I am already aware of your opinion. I am encouraging any posters from Netherlands, Belgium, Scotland, Denmark, Norway and Sweden to give their opinion on the idea.

So what you are suggesting is a money making exercise, that would benefit the the top 2 clubs in the 6 nominated leagues.

How would this not harm the other 10 clubs in those leagues. Are you suggesting that these financially better off teams would not spend their rewards on improving the squads to maintain their top 2 league status to continue to carry on their money making exercise.

Which is exactly what has happened with the majority of Champions League teams. Or are you saying that these CL regulars have not benefited from the Millions they get.

Contradiction in terms.

Unfortunately, the financial division already exists in these leagues. In term of finances, Ajax and PSV are superior in Holland, Anderlecht are superior in Belgium, Rangers and Celtic are superior in Scotland, Kopenhagen are superior in Denmark, Rosenborg are superior in Norway, and Malmo are superior in Sweden. The money making exercise from the regional league would help them cut the gap to the clubs from the richest leagues.

Unfortunately, the financial division already exists in these leagues. In term of finances, Ajax and PSV are superior in Holland, Anderlecht are superior in Belgium, Rangers and Celtic are superior in Scotland, Kopenhagen are superior in Denmark, Rosenborg are superior in Norway, and Malmo are superior in Sweden. The money making exercise from the regional league would help them cut the gap to the clubs from the richest leagues.

So this Money making exercise is only to narrow the gap between a select few teams and those teams of vast wealth then?

But how would they cut the gap if no new fans are being brought to the game? It's not like someone who supports Goteborg will suddenly switch alliance for example and support Celtic.

This would be a league consisting of the same fan bases, same players, same clubs, same stadiums but with the need to negotiate new league sponsorships and TV deals which, like existing deals, will favour the bigger popular clubs.

Waste of money, time and resources.

Well, I am aware that the Sky generation knows very little about the old Cup Winners' Cup or the old UEFA Cup (I am not discussing the Inter-Cities Fairs Cup, since I am too young to remember it), but they were actually some very interesting and quality competitions. In terms of sponsorship and TV rights, the Europa League actually has some pretty good backing, since SEAT, ADIDAS and PES are not exactly some small players in the market, and the TV rights have been sold everywhere around the World.

Anyway, I am stopping this discussion with you now, since I am already aware of your opinion. I am encouraging any posters from Netherlands, Belgium, Scotland, Denmark, Norway and Sweden to give their opinion on the idea.

I used to love the Cup Winner's Cup aswell. But I can't say I enjoy the current Europa league much, especially not before january. And I know the Europa League has sponsors, but clubs don't see much of that money. In fact, Twente's chairman came out recently saying that the Europa League only costs them money, which is why the CL is so important.

So this Money making exercise is only to narrow the gap between a select few teams and those teams of vast wealth then?

Yes. And in the long term, it would help the national leagues overall, since the top clubs would be able to keep their best players for a year or two longer, raising the profile of the leagues, and therefore improving the sponsorship and TV money for the national leagues. It is a chain reaction.

Yes. And in the long term, it would help the national leagues overall, since the top clubs would be able to keep their best players for a year or two longer, raising the profile of the leagues, and therefore improving the sponsorship and TV money for the national leagues. It is a chain reaction.

Sorry

I'm Out

Or, you could say the top clubs would get better, the gap with the other teams bigger, and they would smash the rest of clubs. Which would make the league less interesting and more predictable to watch. You can twist it both ways.