Liverpool 0-0 Swansea: Post Match Sorrows

Very good post, lfc_ynwa.

I agree with majority of your points.

I think our attack has no problems. We all know what Luis Suarez is capable of but yesterday he was pretty anonymous but let's not forget it's probably happens once in a blue moon. I don't think Carroll was bad yesterday. He's been improving game by game and I am happy with his last few performances.

The next bit is the pretty problematic one - midfield. I think Kenny's insistence on a 4-4-2 is not working. If I remember rightly, this is almost the same four players that started against majority of our home games and that has resulted in four draws from 6 games. It just isn't working with Downing, Lucas, Adam and Henderson in a flat four midfield. I agree, we should revert to a 3 men midfield unless we can get some really, really good wingers that have pace, take on their men and whip a ball in.

Defensively, only Lucas is the one that does the most work. He regularly runs across both sides of the pitch to cover Adam, Downing and Henderson. Let's face it, they do help out but they don't win balls enough, IMO. Also leads to our right and left backs having more work but thankfully, we have Enrique who is just sound. On the other side, Johnson not so much but Kelly would make me feel safer.

I would say a trio of Gerrard, Lucas and Adam/Henderson is probably our best with Bellamy, Suarez, Carroll, Downing and Kuyt (maybe even Maxi) fighting for the top 3 slots. Henderson and Spearing can fill in in the middle three.

Defence, we are not exactly terrible in that department. Agger-Skrtel once again keep a clean sheet. Going forwards, Enrique isn't bad as well. Great if I must say. Our right side, too static and clueless. Shame we didn't attack Swansea more often on the left as we were above them on that side.

Reina, keeps another cleansheet but I'm hell sure he'd be willing to throw that away for 3 points. I didn't exactly like the sight of seeing him touching the ball so many times, though, from his teammates, especially at Anfield.

The stats tell the story only four teams have scored less than us.Stoke,Qpr,wigan and west brom. Perhaps jonjo shelvey is the answer 5 goals and two assist in 7 games, i know its the championship but he is on fire. And think his loan spell ends soon?

Good call on Shelvey

Sorrow yes. 12 months ago this would have been "a gweight point by Woy". Sadly again we didn't get 3 point's but thank fcuk we are where we are now under Kenny and not "woy". After the  performance's we put in it's only a matter of time. Cieth and Chelski 4 point's will do for me. Bring back Shelvey by the way.

As everyone else is, I'm extremely frustrated by our last display and I'm sure Kenny and the lads are too. But it's pretty bloody clear that we need two wingers and another striker of world class quality in the next window. Downing needs competition for his spot and Henderson is not setting the right side on fire. We have enough midfielders that are good enough and it's pretty obvious that maxi isn't part of the big picture now.

Extremely frustrated with that performance and our support on the day at the ground and the support shown by our keyboard warriors.

One win away from being back on the bandwagon.

Some of the calls for KK head are insane. God what happened to our club , we got rid of all that negative sh*t when we got the new owners and the man we all called for.

I am not sure people are looking in the right areas when it comes to picking out our problems. We are creating a lot of chances and restricting the opposition to very few. To me that doesn't sound like it's the midfield that is failing.

We have been used over the last few years to Torres converting an excellent percentage of his chances and when he failed Gerrard stepping in to smash one in. I don't think it's fair to expect either Adam or Lucas to take over where Gerrard left off. They have different duties and expectations.

The problem for me is that Suarez while a brilliant player is not as clinical as Torres was, and Carroll at the moment doesn't seem to have much of a goal threat to his game, it's not the central midfield. Yes we would all like to see a little more from the midfield in terms of controlling the game, but to expect either Adam or Lucas (neither with pace to burn)to get ahead of the ball is dreaming. If people want this, they will have to wait for Gerrard to return. 

We need to find a way to get Carroll firing and then we can start worrying about the midfield chipping in with a few goals. Obviously this doesn't mean the midfield including Downing and Henderson are absolved of all blame, but you expect forwards to convert chances and at the moment they are struggling.     

I am not sure people are looking in the right areas when it comes to picking out our problems. We are creating a lot of chances and restricting the opposition to very few. To me that doesn't sound like it's the midfield that is failing.

We have been used over the last few years to Torres converting an excellent percentage of his chances and when he failed Gerrard stepping in to smash one in. I don't think it's fair to expect either Adam or Lucas to take over where Gerrard left off. They have different duties and expectations.

The problem for me is that Suarez while a brilliant player is not as clinical as Torres was, and Carroll at the moment doesn't seem to have much of a goal threat to his game, it's not the central midfield. Yes we would all like to see a little more from the midfield in terms of controlling the game, but to expect either Adam or Lucas (neither with pace to burn)to get ahead of the ball is dreaming. If people want this, they will have to wait for Gerrard to return. 

We need to find a way to get Carroll firing and then we can start worrying about the midfield chipping in with a few goals. Obviously this doesn't mean the midfield including Downing and Henderson are absolved of all blame, but you expect forwards to convert chances and at the moment they are struggling.     

We were outplayed in the middle of the park.

Something that did not occur when we had the likes of Mascherano and Alonso in the side. It was not all reliant and dependant on how clinical Torres was. ,

Our midfield was not dominant enough and has not been most of the season most of our chances are created by Suarez and we are too reliant on that.

Firstly let me take my hat off to the crowd for the respect shone during the Remembrance Day minutes silence. Surely no other ground in the world could manage to have everyone stay completely quiet before a big match. Wish I was there.
That said, unfortunately some in the crowd enjoyed the silence too much, and the lack of noise in the second half seemed to spur the Swansea players on. Anfield doesn't seem to be the fortress it once was - and certainly seems to be becoming the favourite ground for visiting keepers.
I'd like to add my vote for a change of formation. There's too much space between the midfield and forwards which then seems to encourage too many floated high long passes to Carroll (when he's playing), all of which are easily defended. A good example of how to play was the one-two between Adam and Downing early on - we passed our way up the field, which then pulled the defense out of shape so that when the ball did come in to Carroll he was unmarked (the miss just showed how low on confidence the guy is).
Towards the end we started having players running the ball into the final 3rd - and the chances started coming again. Now, of course Stevie is the missing ingredient, and hopefully we'll see him play more than a couple of games in a row this year.
For me though, Suarez, Carroll, and Kuyt/Bellamy up front, Gerrard, Adam/Lucas and Downing/Maxi in midfield.
And FFS, stay positive! We're a million miles ahead of where we were this time last year - sur ewe need goals, but at least we're making chances, and once the confidence rises the shots will go in, and the opposition defenses will start panicking as soon as they get off the bus.

. Anfield doesn't seem to be the fortress it once was - and certainly seems to be becoming the favourite ground for visiting keepers.

yes!! i absolutely hated seeing that look on vorm's face!! he was almost, almost smiling, he knew what was happening, he knew he was making some good saves and he was about to hold liverpool to a draw at anfield. he must have felt awesome which doesn't sit well with me, nothing to do with him personally of course i'm just agreeing with you, seen a few keepers recently very satisfied with how they do against liverpool and it's not good for us in any way!! see everybody (the media) likes pretending liverpool "aren't as big now" but the biggest aspirations for ALL clubs involve knocking us off, beating us at home, competing with liverpool. i think our team needs the time to work together but we also must get some of that swagger back!

Bill Shankly: "If you can't support us when we lose or draw, don't support us when we win."

That being said, I do think that that was one of the worst performance I've seen from us in a while.

We were outplayed in the middle of the park.

Something that did not occur when we had the likes of Mascherano and Alonso in the side. It was not all reliant and dependant on how clinical Torres was. ,

Our midfield was not dominant enough and has not been most of the season most of our chances are created by Suarez and we are too reliant on that.

Yet we have had the higher percentage of possession in every game bar 2 and been the best team in every game bar one...... arguably two. Created the most and best chances, had more shots on target, and hit the wood work more times than any other team (11). Missed a couple of penalties and missed Gerrard for most of the season.

Alonso and Masch were great players, but they also couldn't score or make assists. Alonso averaged less than 4 goals a season and 4 assists, Masch less than a goal a season and 1 assist. We also played much more on the break during their time with Torres playing off the last man and Gerrard linking midfield and attack.

2006/7   Only player to reach double figures ..... Kuyt
2007/8   Only players to reach double figures .... Torres and Gerrard
2008/9   Only players to reach double figures .... Torres, Gerrard and Kuyt
2009/10 Only player to reach double figures ......Torres

I am not sure people are looking in the right areas when it comes to picking out our problems. We are creating a lot of chances and restricting the opposition to very few.

Generally you are correct.   But it wasn't the case against Swansea.

Swansea was a poor performance with little creative intent.  But if you were summing up the season so far then yes - creating chances has not been a problem at all. 

That being said, I do think that that was one of the worst performance I've seen from us in a while.

True.  But it wasn't so long ago that we putting in a decent performance was the exception to the rule.  Let's hope the performance against Swansea was just a blip.

We need to start making teams fear coming to Anfield again, too many teams are coming in and playing for a draw (UTD This season) or coming here believing they will win..

When was the last time we battered a team at home? nope cannot remember.

I would have taken draws at Norwich and Swansea, but at home, thats a piss poor result.

Downing needs a serious wake up call - time to drop him for Maxi.

Kuyt should be starting ahead of Henderson.

And Johnson should be given a go on the Right with Kelly at right back...

but Its Kenny's job to make these calls, and I will not question his decisions.

Generally you are correct.   But it wasn't the case against Swansea.

Swansea was a poor performance with little creative intent.  But if you were summing up the season so far then yes - creating chances has not been a problem at all. 

I agree that we were poor in the second half against Swansea, but we still created enough chances to have won the game.It's no excuse for they way we disappeared for most of the second half I know, but a fact none the less. 

People are getting on Downings back because he hasn't scored or made an assist, but how many assists would he have had if our strikers were putting away the chances he has created? How much more confident would he be? Thats not to say I don't appreciate that his form has fallen away, but just an example of the difference a clinical striker might have.

I don't expect any striker to put away every chance, or even most of his chances, but I do expect them to convert more than we have seen from ours this season. 

Yes we should expect goals from other areas too, but for me if the strikers are getting chances they are the ones I look to for goals.

Suarez is not the problem unless your saying we are to dependant on him. If he got injured we would be in big big trouble

I am not sure people are looking in the right areas when it comes to picking out our problems. We are creating a lot of chances and restricting the opposition to very few. To me that doesn't sound like it's the midfield that is failing.

I take your point s@int and of course you are right re: both creating and limiting chances.

Folk like to talk of football being a simple game, you pass, you move but you know and I know it's just not that straight forward. It's a given that our strikers aren't being clinical so... to explain my position I'd like to focus on our Anfield draws and what I see as midfield's role in those draws.

In my opinion (and it's only that); we invariably start off well, our 'four' push on, our full-backs join in and the chances seem to come thick and fast (ooh er missus). When we add in your lack of clinical finishing, what we have is a Reds team going in at half-time either only one up or (as Saturday) nil-nil.

What I have been witnessing, (second-half), is us coming out with the attitude "more of the same lads" whilst our opponents, buoyed with hope, change things in the middle. Suddenly "more of the same" (which was producing chances - not goals) becomes harder and the chances fewer.

Our opponents, usually, gain a foothold and as a consequence our attacking display becomes a defensive display out of necessity. Our centre two, instead of dominating possession, are left chasing possession. Our full-backs, instead of joining in attack, are now dropping back to defend. The thing is: if we can't score with loads of possession, naturally (in my opinion), it's more difficult to score with less. As much as we hope that the mantra of "more of the same" will prevail: it hasn't been working.

In the absence of a strike force not scoring freely you're left hoping that either: one goal will do or your midfield take up the slack. With a two in which (let's be honest here) only one is a 'threat' that's going to be hard but if that 'one' is needed to defend; it becomes nigh on impossible to get a goal return.

In summary: what we have is "a game of two halves". First half - a mis-firing strike force, a dominant midfield and attacking full-backs; creating numerous chances. Second half -  a mis-firing strike force, a midfield and full-backs that are now defending instead of creating and the numerous chances become few and far between.

Less possession = less chances to convert and more defending - hardly the formula to succeed when we take into the equation a mis-firing strike force. The solution? Counter our opponents by playing three in the middle with three up front. I've heard the Roy-esque notion that by playing three in the middle you are somehow taking away an additional 'attacking threat' - utter bollocks.

If, for example, on Saturday (second half) we had drafted Henderson into the centre, alongside Charlie, in front of Lucas and played a front three of Suarez, Carroll and Bellamy - we wouldn't have removed an attacker but added one. Jordan isn't a right winger and as such (in a 4-4-2) he's no threat.

Finally (thank F**k, says you): I'm very clear in my 'gripe' with 'midfield' (and I can only 'speak' for myself) : it is not with 'creation', not with defending and not with the personnel.  My 'gripe' is that "more of the same" (in the middle), second half at Anfield, isn't working.

My gripe with the midfield against Swansea was there was no urgency, we did not press Swansea at all and I said during the match somewhere in this thread, we were given them a 10 yard head start everythime they received the ball, by the time we went to close them down, they had released the ball to another man in ten yards of space.

My gripe with the midfield against Swansea was there was no urgency, we did not press Swansea

What do you see as being the solution to that problem Bud?

What do you see as being the solution to that problem Bud?

We could go one of two ways I suppose, go with a 3 man midfield mate, throw Jay in the middle, let him and Lucas do all the hurrying and harrassing like the little terriers they are and deploy Adam in somewhat deep lying play maker role.

Or drop Adam and bring Jay in and add some mobility and drive into the midfield.

But then again, you could introduce Bellamy and Kuyt for Hendo and Downing, because one thing you know get from both Bellars and Kuyt is a massive work rate, they will chase every ball/lost cause like their lives depended on it.

To go back to the Fulham vs Spurs game yesterday, Fulham almost done a perfect job on Spurs and if it wasn't for two lapses in concentration and over commiting in search of an equaliser right at the very end, they would have done the perfect job on Spurs, they got about Spurs from the very first minute, they pressed them high up the pitch and never gave Modric or Parker a second on the ball.

Fulham were at home the onus was on them to try and go out and win the game and that's what they done, I was very impressed with Fulhams work rate and commitment, this is where I was dissappointed with ourselves, we were at home, the onus was on us to go out and win the game and show a similar work rate and commitment, but for the majority of the game we played it like an exhibition match and allowed Swansea far too much time and space on the ball.

We could go one of two ways I suppose, go with a 3 man midfield mate

Don't think it was anything to do with numbers or even formation.  The players just didn't put a shift in.  They looked like they had been doing leg presses all morning before the game, or had a night on the sauce.

Stoke and West Brom we started explosively.   We were also much better against Norwich.  I don't know what it was but they just looked totally out of sorts.  Sometimes no formation changes in the world can help players who don't want to work hard, chase the ball and put movement in off the ball.

I take your point s@int and of course you are right re: both creating and limiting chances.

Folk like to talk of football being a simple game, you pass, you move but you know and I know it's just not that straight forward. It's a given that our strikers aren't being clinical so.  to explain my position I'd like to focus on our Anfield draws and what I see as midfield's role in those draws.

In my opinion (and it's only that); we invariably start off well, our 'four' push on, our full-backs join in and the chances seem to come thick and fast (ooh er missus). When we add in your lack of clinical finishing, what we have is a Reds team going in at half-time either only one up or (as Saturday) nil-nil.

What I have been witnessing, (second-half), is us coming out with the attitude "more of the same lads" whilst our opponents, buoyed with hope, change things in the middle. Suddenly "more of the same" (which was producing chances - not goals) becomes harder and the chances fewer.

Our opponents, usually, gain a foothold and as a consequence our attacking display becomes a defensive display out of necessity. Our centre two, instead of dominating possession, are left chasing possession. Our full-backs, instead of joining in attack, are now dropping back to defend. The thing is: if we can't score with loads of possession, naturally (in my opinion), it's more difficult to score with less. As much as we hope that the mantra of "more of the same" will prevail: it hasn't been working.

In the absence of a strike force not scoring freely you're left hoping that either: one goal will do or your midfield take up the slack. With a two in which (let's be honest here) only one is a 'threat' that's going to be hard but if that 'one' is needed to defend; it becomes nigh on impossible to get a goal return.

In summary: what we have is "a game of two halves". First half - a mis-firing strike force, a dominant midfield and attacking full-backs; creating numerous chances. Second half -  a mis-firing strike force, a midfield and full-backs that are now defending instead of creating and the numerous chances become few and far between.

Less possession = less chances to convert and more defending - hardly the formula to succeed when we take into the equation a mis-firing strike force. The solution? Counter our opponents by playing three in the middle with three up front. I've heard the Roy-esque notion that by playing three in the middle you are somehow taking away an additional 'attacking threat' - utter bollocks.

If, for example, on Saturday (second half) we had drafted Henderson into the centre, alongside Charlie, in front of Lucas and played a front three of Suarez, Carroll and Bellamy - we wouldn't have removed an attacker but added one. Jordan isn't a right winger and as such (in a 4-4-2) he's no threat.

Finally (thank f**k, says you): I'm very clear in my 'gripe' with 'midfield' (and I can only 'speak' for myself) : it is not with 'creation', not with defending and not with the personnel.  My 'gripe' is that "more of the same" (in the middle), second half at Anfield, isn't working.

I must admit your theory certainly fits the facts better than mine, which was the simplistic one that we were taking our foot off the gas while the opposition having gained confidence from our inability to close out the game pushed on. It would also explain why drastic action hasn't been taken against some of our players if it was just down to complacency or lack of effort.

So until someone comes up with a better idea, I am going to go with your theory mate. Now we just need to get Kenny to agree. Hopefully once Gerrard is back we will have more options to change things, although in truth we have options now we just aren't using them.