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      FA Suarez documents released

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      JD
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      Re: FA Suarez documents released
      Reply #483: Jan 03, 2012 11:45:50 am
      By trying to take it higher than the FA immediately, we'd have to admit Suarez's guilt by not appealing the FA decision.

      Disagree.

      We could refuse to appeal because we have no faith in the FA's integrity or disciplinary procedures.  Hardly admitting guilt.  Leaves Suarez free then to sue both the FA and the Daily Mirror.
      smurftheburn
      • Forum Billy Liddell
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      Re: FA Suarez documents released
      Reply #484: Jan 03, 2012 11:47:47 am
      With the scathing attack and detail the FA have put into the report, do you think it's conceivable that they would lengthen the 8 games subsequent to an appeal?

      Initially I thought they couldn't, but the bias with which the report was written, I personally think they could add a few more games to that if he tried to protest his innocence.
      RedLFCBlood
      • Guest
      Re: FA Suarez documents released
      Reply #485: Jan 03, 2012 11:51:00 am
      Disagree.

      We could refuse to appeal because we have no faith in the FA's integrity or disciplinary procedures.  Hardly admitting guilt.  Leaves Suarez free then to sue both the FA and the Daily Mirror.

      I'm not so sure it would work that way JD to be honest, even though we stated we have no faith in the FA's integrity or disciplinary procedures, you are supposed to exhaust all lines of procedure as that is what they are put in place for.

      Lets say for an example you get sacked at work, you have a disciplinary hearing, you by law get a chance of appeal, an employment tribunal will not hear your case until you've exhausted that appeal, whether or not you have faith in the appeals integrity, nor will they hear your case if you don't take up the chance of appeal.
      fields of anny rd
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
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      Re: FA Suarez documents released
      Reply #486: Jan 03, 2012 11:51:35 am
      All the sh*t spouted about the clubs position on Luis backfiring in terms of sponsorship seems to be bullshit anyway:

      http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/latest-news/liverpool-fc-and-konica-minolta-sign-long-term-partnership
      redrox
      • Forum Billy Liddell
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      Re: FA Suarez documents released
      Reply #487: Jan 03, 2012 11:54:08 am
      I don't know why but after reading the comments on this case these words popped into my head to the tune of "The Addams Family"

      Luis Suarez is the greatest
      He deffo aint no racist
      the FA are a disgrace, their
      part of Fergie's family

      FA have got their riches
      from using Man u's bitches
      who love to do their snitching
      on Liverpool FC

      The FA --- you suck
      Evra    --- your a c*nt                           ( <--the clicking fingers part)
      and Ferguson the biggest scum
      for bringing this "hunt" to our club!!   :f_whistle:
      JD
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      Re: FA Suarez documents released
      Reply #488: Jan 03, 2012 12:03:54 pm
      Gut feeling is that we will know by Friday what the plan is.

      I'd imagine if the reds were NOT going to appeal then they would accept the ban before the FA Cup tie against Oldham, hoping that we beat them, and that as a result Suarez will miss 4 cup games and only 4 league games.

      Which would mean he would be available for United.

      If we haven't heard by Friday I would assume the reds are set to appeal.
      finchie
      • Forum Legend - Benitez
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      Re: FA Suarez documents released
      Reply #489: Jan 03, 2012 12:12:23 pm
      So a French man with a basic grasp of Spanish has wrongly translated a kind of Spanish he does not understand or is not familiar with and made his accusations based on that.
      In a nutshell!
      waltonl4
      • Forum Legend - Shankly
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      Re: FA Suarez documents released
      Reply #490: Jan 03, 2012 12:20:59 pm
      If the same process applies in the FA appeal what is the point in appealing we need to take it to somewhere where "Evidence" is required not assumptions of guilt.
      The FA are stupid to think you can tarnish a man and a club as racist and expect them to just accept there decision based on the format of their own enquiry. Racism itself deserves to be taken far more seriously and open accounts of proceedures need to be available.
      for those who say the FA rules are their rules I would remind people that the British Olympic Assoc have lifetime bans inforce for Drug cheats but this itself has been challenged and overturned by some Athletes wishing to compete in this years Olympics.
      Just because the rules are the rules it dosen't mean they cannot be challenged outside the cosy confines of FA headquarters.
      We basically have a Kangaroo Court who wield their power without any checks and that isn't justice as we know it so come on  Luis take the bas**rds to Court.
      QuicoGalante
      • Forum Legend - Fagan
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      • Uruguay 2030
      Re: FA Suarez documents released
      Reply #491: Jan 03, 2012 12:21:08 pm
      "tu eres negro" for us Uruguayans would sound like an yanki reciting Shakespeare. "thou art black" or something like that
      We speak spanish like americans speak english, meaning we deformed the "original"
      SM
      • Forum Legend - Fagan
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      Re: FA Suarez documents released
      Reply #492: Jan 03, 2012 12:40:31 pm
      "tu eres negro" for us Uruguayans would sound like an yanki reciting Shakespeare. "thou art black" or something like that

      Did make me laugh "thou art black"...!! Can you imagine it...!!
      RedLFCBlood
      • Guest
      Re: FA Suarez documents released
      Reply #493: Jan 03, 2012 12:41:56 pm
      Did make me laugh "thou art black"...!! Can you imagine it...!!

      Yup Suarez stood there with a skull "Alas poor Evra, I knew you so well"
      thanks2shanks
      • Forum Didi Hamann
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      Re: FA Suarez documents released
      Reply #494: Jan 03, 2012 12:46:04 pm
      you cannot judge a man and charge him guilty, especially with soemthing serious like this, without solid proof and youo are absolute 100% certain.
      Actually you can.  In non-criminal cases, the "balance-of-probablity" test applies, rather than "beyond-reasonable-doubt", so it's easier to find someone guilty at this level of inquiry. I have some experience of tribunals such as this, and that's the way it works.

      If an appeal were made, it would have to show that the committee had not complied with its own procedures - unlikely.  The best outcome that could be hoped for would be to have the ban reduced.  The risk would be the appeal would be rejected and the length of the ban increased.

      These are the factors LFC has to weigh before deciding its next step.
      QuicoGalante
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      Re: FA Suarez documents released
      Reply #495: Jan 03, 2012 12:46:28 pm
      Yup Suarez stood there with a skull "Alas poor Evra, I knew you so well"
      Evra Evra wherefore art thou Evra...Is that a negro which i see before me?
      racerx34
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      Re: FA Suarez documents released
      Reply #496: Jan 03, 2012 12:49:17 pm
      Bill Roache with a #SaySorrySuarez campaign.

      Get the F**k out of here.
      Guess he couldn't figure out one for Terry.
      RedLFCBlood
      • Guest
      Re: FA Suarez documents released
      Reply #497: Jan 03, 2012 12:50:05 pm
      Bill Roache with a #SaySorrySuarez campaign.


      Its a fake account confirmed by ITV mate.
      racerx34
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      • THE SALT IN THE SOUP
      Re: FA Suarez documents released
      Reply #498: Jan 03, 2012 12:51:43 pm

      Its a fake account confirmed by ITV mate.

      What a n*b.
      davebristol
      • On Trial

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      Re: FA Suarez documents released
      Reply #499: Jan 03, 2012 01:00:45 pm
      hi this is my first post, can anyone tell me if the views of Aldo Mazzucchelli, on the previous page have been forwarded to the club. xxxxx:action-smiley-065:
      Brian78
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      Re: FA Suarez documents released
      Reply #500: Jan 03, 2012 01:02:15 pm
      Bill Roache with a #SaySorrySuarez campaign.

      Get the f**k out of here.
      Guess he couldn't figure out one for Terry.

      Who is Bill Roache that the lad out of Coronation street? Ha ha my jaysus

      Can we start a "fook you Bill Roache" campaign?
      Christ
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      Re: FA Suarez documents released
      Reply #501: Jan 03, 2012 04:54:00 pm
      If the same process applies in the FA appeal what is the point in appealing we need to take it to somewhere where "Evidence" is required not assumptions of guilt.
      The FA are stupid to think you can tarnish a man and a club as racist and expect them to just accept there decision based on the format of their own enquiry. Racism itself deserves to be taken far more seriously and open accounts of proceedures need to be available.
      for those who say the FA rules are their rules I would remind people that the British Olympic Assoc have lifetime bans inforce for Drug cheats but this itself has been challenged and overturned by some Athletes wishing to compete in this years Olympics.
      Just because the rules are the rules it dosen't mean they cannot be challenged outside the cosy confines of FA headquarters.
      We basically have a Kangaroo Court who wield their power without any checks and that isn't justice as we know it so come on  Luis take the bas**rds to Court.

      my thoughts exactly, this is bigger than the FA..
      RedLFCBlood
      • Guest
      Re: FA Suarez documents released
      Reply #502: Jan 03, 2012 05:25:06 pm
      Woosh.

      This is a solicitor from The Professional Footballers' Association of Ireland.

      STUART'S INQUIRY

      http://www.pfai.ie/news/283-stuarts-inquiry

      Tuesday, 03 January 2012 15:56

      The Curious Case of Luis Suarez . . . . . . .

      It has become an unavoidable cliche that the Suarez/Evra case cannot be viewed as black or white.  Since New Year's Eve, when a 115 page tome landed in our inboxes, many opinions have been expressed as to whether the FA Regulatory Commission has got it right or wrong. Most have jumped to the conclusion that since the report is well written, very long, detailed and presented in nicely worded legalese, that it must be correct.

      The truth, like with many tribunal decisions and, indeed most likely the case itself, lies somewhere in-between. There is much to be admired in the manner in which the commission dissected very complex linguistic issues as well as the nuances of what was said and not said.  They have reported the facts in great detail and the result is that many of us are in a position to draw our conclusions.

      That said, the report's findings are somewhat flawed and, in particular, the sanction meted out is completely out of line with the evidence and even the commission's own conclusions.

      I should say, at this point, I am a Liverpool fan but also the solicitor for the PFAI, the League of Ireland's players' union. Although my allegiances are naturally with Luis Suarez, I'd like to think that I would take a similar view if a League of Ireland player asked me to represent them in similar circumstances. Indeed, I have defended an Irish player, Jason McGuinness, where allegations of insulting behaviour with racial overtones were made. He received a five match ban.

      The Suarez case is unique in its complexity but in the end it comes down to some fairly basic questions.

      1. What is the burden of proof?

      2. Did Suarez use the word "negro" and, if so, how often?

      3. If he did use this word, what should the punishment be?

       

      The first question has been the subject of much debate and many commentators seem to believe that the "balance of probabilities" burden is too low. The implication is that the criminal standard of "beyond reasonable doubt" should apply.

      I don't believe this is correct and instead a hybrid that is often used in tribunals where professional conduct is the subject of review is more appropriate.  It is usually expressed as "highly probable" and it appear that the commission have rather clumsily agreed to this level by stating that this was a serious allegation and the more serious the charge, the greater the burden. It is a great pity that they didn't express this in clearer terms but I think it is fair to say that the test of high probability is what was applied and if so, I believe this was correct.

      However, it's one thing to select the right burden of proof and it's quite another to apply it. This is where the commission made its first mistake.  It's patently clear, and admitted by Suarez, that the word "negro" was used at least once. Whether it was used again is a matter of great debate and certainly could not be described as highly probable.

      Quite simply, the only evidence that there was more than one use of the word comes from Evra himself and without independent corroboration, in addition to the inevitable linguistic confusion which is central to the whole case, it simply cannot even be described as probable, much less highly probable.

      While the commission quite rightly point out inaccuracies in Suarez's evidence, they do not justify their quantum leap from this to believing everything Evra says without a scintilla of independent evidence.

      Now, this is not to say Suarez is innocent.  He's not, he deserves a ban for the inappropriate use of the word "negro" that he has admitted but this needs to be proportionate to what can be legitimately proven and not the educated conjecture of the commission.

      The range of sanctions available is effectively from two matches upwards. It is clear that he is in breach of regulations and must serve at least a two match ban.  Since there is a racial element, the entry point of four matches seems apposite.  However, the commission have erred by increasing it largely due to the extremely dubious finding that he said the offending word seven times.

      However, even if you accept that reasoning, it is very difficult to understand how considering the guidelines recommend a doubling of the sanction for a first offence and trebling for second. The effective quadrupling of the two match standard ban suggests that the Suarez findings were even worse than a standard second offence.  This makes no sense whatsoever unless you reach the obvious conclusion that the commission were seeking to make an example of Suarez rather than employing the usual rules of natural justice.

      An interesting example of how the commission glossed over certain inconsistencies while focussing on others is the manner in which it examines the motive for Suarez saying what Evra alleges he said. While agreeing that this upbringing, parentage and friends would militate against such behaviour, they can find no reason why he would engage in such behaviour and instead simply dismiss it as being out of character with no reason provided as to why he should suddenly remove himself from his normal characteristics.

      This decision was driven by desire to believe either one party or the other, in the entirety.  This was the fatal mistake that the commission made because there was no need for this. It is perfectly feasible for any tribunal to decide that part of the charge was proven and the balance was not.  And quite simply, this is what they should have done.

      So what now? In my humble opinion, Suarez should appeal.  He should admit, on the one occasion which he accepts using the word, that he was wrong to do so. He could argue that he did not use it on other occasions and such instances remain unproven in accordance with the burden of proof, but that he regrets the use of the word at all.  He should apologize for this and agree to assist the anti-racism campaigns.  He can then legitimately argue that the ban is excessive and should be reduced to the entry point of four matches.

      In my opinion, if he adopts such an approach, he will succeed in reducing the ban, maybe not to four matches but certainly to no more than six. The question now is whether Suarez is prepared to accept any level of contrition, whether football considerations will hold sway (the plethora of upcoming cup matches might provide an opportunity to see out the current ban) or whether he and Liverpool want to get the best result and help combat racism at the same time.

      There is still scope for a sensible conclusion to this fiasco but it needs brave decisions. History to date suggests we shouldn't hold our breath.

       

      Stuart Gilhooly is the solicitor for the Professional Footballers Association of Ireland and was also recently named Journalist of Year at the Irish Magazine Awards.

      He can be followed on twitter @PFAISolicitor
      RedLFCBlood
      • Guest
      Re: FA Suarez documents released
      Reply #503: Jan 03, 2012 05:39:04 pm
      Luis Suarez – Liverpool Should Accept Sanctions Yes or No?

      http://www.jjfootballtimes.com/luis-suarez-liverpool-should-accept-sanctions-yes-or-no/

      As suggested by the site information I am writing this piece because I am fed up of hearing the same repeated garbage from our national media which has then been repeated on many occasions, particularly via twitter, about whether the verdict by The FA was correct.

      As with all cases of this type it is very sensitive due to the race element, however, it is intensified as it happened on a football field between two fierce rivals. The fan divide and fan loyalty mixed into an already difficult topic makes the conclusions and issues hard to draw.

      In this article I am going to de-construct the report and its findings from the perspective of the law and try to highlight the holes in the report which will show why Liverpool Football Club feel so aggrieved, however, I shall also show the holes in the case for Suarez and attempt to explain how the decision was reached.

      The aim of this article is to put some sense into an argument, where the mainstream writers (who are not experts in legal proceedings) have muddied the waters with their own agenda and lack of knowledge. There are two quotes that I have taken from twitter from two ‘respected’ journalists that should highlight the danger of believing all you read from these so-called experts.

      I have read the 115 page verdict three times, on the first occasion I just read it and then the second and third time I made notes. “@Marcotti Can’t believe I spent most of the first hour of 2012 reading the 115 page explanation of the Suarez-Evra case” (Jan 1 2012) How is it possible to read a document at a rate quicker than a page a minute, digest it, understand it and then make a valid comment on it?

      More frightening is “@OllieHoltMirror It was fun being lectured about ‘negrito’ by people saying it how was ridiculous  it was to prejudge Suarez before the evidence was available” (Jan 1 2012). Here @OllieHoltMirror was referring to several statements he made where he was criticized for judging Suarez prior to any release of evidence that had been made and he is saying that he was right to prejudge without evidence. This shows how there is an agenda where press people make up their minds prior to any facts being researched. The report was used by some journalist to only highlight there prejudged views as and that is the quotes they printed.

      The Report

      The report itself was broken down into 10 parts:

          Introduction
          The Proceedings
          The Relevant Rules
          The Background Facts
          The Expert Evidence
          The Main Factual Disputes
          The Charge
          The Penalty
          Summary
          Conclusion

      Starting with the Conclusion as a basis to breakdown the report I will make a direct quote:

      Paragraph 454: “We conclude these Reasons with the following comment. The Charge against Mr Suarez was that he used insulting words which included a reference to Mr Evra’s colour. We have found that Charge proved on the evidence and arguments put before us. The FA made clear that it did not contend that Mr Suarez acted as he did because he is a racist. Mr Evra said in his evidence that he did not think Mr Suarez is a racist. Mr Suarez said in evidence that he will not use the word “negro” on a football pitch in England in the future, and we believe that is his genuine and firm intention.”

      There is genuine belief from the ‘evidence and arguments’ that ‘The FA made clear that it did not content that Mr Suarez acted as he did because he is a racist. Mr Evra said in his evidence that he did not think Suarez is a racist.’ All football fans and The Mirror (with their headline) that states that Suarez is a racist and are trying to use the guilty verdict from The FA need to understand that very same report states clearly and unequivocally that neither The FA or Patrice Evra believe Suarez to be a racist and this is after hearing all the evidence. The vilifying of a man for being racist should stop since the evidence relied on to call him a racist actually states that he is not. Furthermore, ‘Mr Suarez was born in Salto, Uruguay as one of seven children. His Grandfather was black. He moved to Montevideo when he was seven years old There were many black people living where he grew up and he had many black friends.’ (Paragraph 339). If Suarez’s genes had inherited from his grandfather, his complexion would be darker and thus had he used the same words would they have been taken as offensive by Evra? I do not have an answer but it is a good question. Usually the bad use of the ‘N’ word is deemed satisfactory to used between the black community but not from another. Since Suarez, himself is in part from the black community given his grandfather’s ethnicity I think that should rest the racist issues if you are being sensible.

      There has been a great deal made of the linguistic experts that have been quoted to be supporting the fact that the word ‘negro’ in the way used by Suarez would have been deemed offensive in Uruguay, however, this is where the journalist have decided to put their own ‘spin’ on things and leads onto a major area of concern for Liverpool Football Club. It is entirely true that in Paragraph 186 “The experts concluded their observations on Mr Evra’s account as follows. If Mr Suarez used the words “negro” and “negros” as described by Mr Evra, this would be understood as offensive and offensive in racial terms in Uruguay and Spanish-speaking America more generally. The physical gesture of touching Mr Evra’s arm would also, in the context of the phrases used, be interpreted as racist.”

      The important part of this quote that has been missed by all journalists is the first line. The important part they have missed out is that the experts were asked to give their view on the use of the phrases by looking at both parties version of events. They read Evra’s statement and version of events with the video footage and this was their conclusion.

      However, they also read Suarez’s statement along with the video footage and Paragraph 194 states “The experts concluded their observations on Mr Suarez’s account as follows. If Mr Suarez used the word “negro” as described by Mr Suarez, this would not be interpreted as either offensive or offensive in racial terms in Uruguay and Spanish-speaking America more generally; it is being used along the lines of paragraphs 172, 173 and 175 above.”

      Paragraph 172, 173 and 175 is a reference to where the experts state the different uses of the word ‘negro’ along with different phrases. When you look at the conclusion made by the very same experts, on Suarez’s account it totally supports what Suarez said from the very start.

      The FA’s Independent Commission chose to apply the conclusion based on Evra’s version of events not the conclusion based on Suarez’s version of events.

      The main crux for The Independent Commission was to examine and explore the issues at which Suarez and Evra had a different version/recollection. Paragraph 205 states “Do we accept Mr Suarez’s evidence that he used the word “negro” only once when he said to Mr Evra “Por que, negro?” (“Why, black?”), which was used in a conciliatory and friendly way that is customary in Uruguay? Or, do we accept Mr Evra’s evidence that Mr Suarez used the word “negro” five times in the goalmouth when he said to Mr Evra “Porque tu eres negro” (“Because you are black”), “No hablo con negros” (“I don’t speak with blacks”), and “Dale, negro, negro, negro” (“Okay, blackie, blackie, blackie)?”

      If you place yourselves in the position of the Independent Commission members then you find yourself in a very awkward and difficult position. You have two completely different version of events to describe the same two minute period. How do you decide which one is telling the truth?

      If this was a case similar to that of England Captain John Terry; which has been passed to the CPS who in turn decided there was enough evidence not only to charge Terry but for him to have a case to answer in the criminal court; then the case would have to be prove beyond a reasonable doubt.

      In all criminal cases there are two areas that must be proved. The first, is called Actus Reus which is the physical act that breached the law. The second, is called Men Rea which is the mental intent. The onus is on the prosecution to prove beyond a reasonable doubt (approximately 95%) that an act of crime took place and that the mental intent was present in committing that crime.

      In a Civil Court where one person sues another person because they have been aggrieved someway where the remedy is always financially related or to put the person back in a position before the complaint took place then the law only requires the accuser to be proved guilty on the balance of probabilities (51%). This is where the case goes for The FA while at the same time goes against The FA and once again is an area were Liverpool Football Club can argue an error in the interpretation or application of the law/rules.

      Paragraph 76 to 80 deals with the burden of proof and how they will be using the balance of probabilities, however, they acknowledge in Paragraph 79 “Regulation 7.3 includes an important reference to the civil standard of proof being flexible. This means, as the Regulation states, that the more serious the allegation, taking into account the nature of the Misconduct alleged and the context of the case, the greater the burden of evidence required to prove the matter. This is sometimes described in this way: the more serious the allegation, the less likely it is to have happened, and therefore the 25 greater the burden of evidence required to prove that it did. This does not set the standard any higher than the balance of probability. But, the more serious the allegation, the greater the burden of evidence required to prove the matter to that standard.”

      The point that has been made here is although the balance of probability burden of proof applies, for more serious cases the evidence required to prove the case must be higher, so in other words instead of proving to 51% it will be to say 65%-70%.

      The Independent Commission also acknowledge in Paragraph 80 “The FA accepts that the Charge against Mr Suarez is serious, as do we. It is for this reason that we have reminded ourselves that a greater burden of evidence is required to prove the Charge against Mr Suarez.”

      At this point the Independent Commission have clearly written and stated that they will be looking for greater proof than the standard 51% that is common with balance of probability cases.

      The other important point to note is that due to the race part of the case it could be argued that the test should be in line with the criminal burden of proof, beyond a reasonable doubt, since a person’s reputation is at stake. If the same incident took place in the street or as John Terry realised in a public domain with cameras capturing the words then it would be a criminal case and thus the only burden of proof would have to be beyond a reasonable doubt. As it stands The FA rules do not distinguish between offensive language used and racial language and thus stick to their balance of probabilities test. In any case the standard or percentage of probability and evidence to prove Suarez guilt was already raised in Paragraph 80.

      Back to the question then, how do we prove who is telling the truth and who is not? The starting point is to interview the accuser, which in this case is Evra and that was done on “Thursday 20 October” (Paragraph 11). You would then assess what has been told and if required interview Suarez (the accused), this was also done on “2 November” (Paragraph 13).

      You would want to get hold of any witnesses and again these statements were taken, although there were no on-the-field witnesses that could corroborate either side’s version of events. As it stands we are still stuck with Suarez’s version against Evra’s version.

      The next thing to do would be to look for any visual evidence and The Independent Commission looked at footage that was broadcast and footage that was not broadcast, again, the video “footage was not of any real direct assistance in terms of what was said by Mr Suarez in the goalmouth. It was not possible to try to lip-read what Mr Suarez said largely because his face was obscured at the crucial moments, either because his back was to the camera behind the goal, or because his face was obscured by a camera fixed to the back stanchion” (Paragraph 238). The footage did, however, show the physical exchanges along the goal line along with physical exchanges that took place in front of the referee and immediately after. The exchange is clearly open to an individual interpretation, the video footage of Suarez touching Evra’s head has Suarez smiling at the point at which he does that which backs up his initial statement of doing so in a reconciliatory manner, however, another interpretation is, which was the one applied that it was done to annoy Evra and heated. You can research Youtube or another manner of looking at that clip and make up your own interpretation.

      The Independent Commission then relied on looking at statements taken in the immediate aftermath of the reporting of the incident and then revisited those statements during the hearing. There were words attributed to Suarez from Damien Commoli, Kenny Dalglish and Dirk Kuyt who all said that they were not one hundred percent accurate and the fact that it was third hand made these comments hearsay evidence. Within, all aspects of legal proceedings or any other type hearsay evidence is always inadmissible as evidence meaning you cannot use it during the hearing. However, the evidence was admitted and used to undermine Suarez’s case as he was judged on what somebody else had said about the situation. The reason for the Independent Commission doing this was because they had not managed to find evidence to support either party.

      During the actual hearing both Suarez and Evra gave oral evidence which was cross examined. Evra “gave his evidence in English” (Paragraph 229) while Suarez gave his evidence “through an interpreter.” (Paragraph 236) Evra was given credit for giving his evidence “in a calm, composed and clear manner.” (Paragraph 231) yet Suarez was deemed unreliable as “His answers were  not always clear or directly addressed to the question.” (Paragraph 237) The fact remains that Evra was the accuser and Suarez the accused so there was always going to be a difference in the manner the answers were given and the fact that The Independent Commission had to resort to looking at the demeanour of the two players, emphasises the absolute lack of evidence they had in order to come to a decision.

      Everybody who watches football knows there are fouls in the game and those that would cause shock and those that do not. It is important to note the Independent Commission did have a football person on the panel Dennis Smith. Evra claimed he “was in shock (as he put it) and responding to Mr Suarez having fouled him five minutes previously.” (Paragraph 240) The question here is why would a player been in shock five minutes after a standard foul to the point to have the need to address the player who fouled you about it? When Evra asked Suarez why he had fouled him the answer was, according to Evra that Suarez said it was because Evra was black and it was during this exchange he stated to Evra he does not talk to blacks and the said ok blackie balckied blackie. Suarez says that he said to Evra stop moaning it was just a normal foul.

      Looking at the incident from a football perspective which answer sounds more plausible to you bearing in mind it took place 5 minutes prior to the conversation? I will not answer the question rather I will leave it for you to decide what you would think is reply you think would be more obvious.

      Suarez, however, did admit to using the phrase “Por que, negro?” at the point when the referee first blew his whistle just as Gerrard took the corner after Evra had first said “Don’t touch me you South American” (Paragraph 104). Again, it is important to note the experts points above stating that the use of the word negro by Suarez in the manner in which he says he used it was not racist or abusive. It is also important to note the conversation was in Spanish so the fact it was in England does not come into it since the conversation was said in Spanish. To put this point into context, if you translate something in German for instance to say can you complete this task by the end of the month. If it was a direct translation it would be something like this task can you complete until the end of the month. Therefore, a direct translation cannot be relied on nor can a conversation in another language be said in a manner where the construction would be in English as it would not make sense.

      Also Evra “believed, from the moment he heard Mr Suarez use the word “negro”, that this meant nigger. The Commission asked Mr Evra why, then, did he not tell the referee that he had been called nigger, as opposed to black. Mr Evra’s answer was that even when he pronounced the word “niggers”, it was not a word he liked to use”. (Paragraph 271) Evra, interpreted the word incorrect for starters and then said he did not use the word as he does not like to repeat it but could repeat other profanities as he did so in his statement and complaint to the referee. That does not seem totally viable but it was believed by the commission.

      Suarez, was shown video footage and questioned and he got confused through questioning, perhaps nerves and muddled himself as to where he said what he said but at no time did he change the statement of what he had said to Evra, only where it was said due being shown and questioned on different parts of the footage. This went against Suarez to show him as an unreliable witness.

      Another, consideration taken by the Independent Commission was the number of times the word was used. Because a Liverpool employee, overheard Sir Alex Ferguson tell the referee Suarez used the word five times “In our judgment, this lent some weight to the credibility of Mr

      Evra’s evidence that Mr Suarez used the word five times in the goalmouth.” (Paragraph 278) To break this down they mean that when Evra went with his manager to the referee and said we want to complain because Evra has been called a racist word 5 times, this complaint was heard by a Liverpool employee and thus means it strengthens the Evra’s claim to be correct. How is that possible? IF, Evra was exaggerating his recollection of the event then he would of course had said to the referee that his complaint was to report the use of a racist word 5 times. If somebody hears a potential false claim does that mean that false claim is more credible? This is another bone for contention for Liverpool Football Club but also shows how little evidence was actually available that the Independent Commission were relying on hearsay evidence from an Liverpool employee overhearing a complaint being made by the accuser and his manager.

      Evra also came on Canal+ TV and said that Suarez had used the phrase 10 times yet when questioned he said it was a figure of speech used in the French language and not meant as an actual figure. The Independent Commission said “We find that Mr Evra’s use of the phrase “ten times” was a figure of speech and not meant to be taken literally. In circumstances where he was angry and upset after the game, he had only spoken to Canal+ about this topic off the record, they had nevertheless asked him about it when filming (contrary to his request that they not do so), and he was using what appears to be a common figure of speech in France, there is nothing in the Canal+ interview which materially undermines Mr Evra’s evidence.” (Paragraph 281) So it was ok to accept Evra’s account that this is a figure of speech in this type of conversation without an official interpreter stating this to be the fact, especially as when the asked Comolli he said it was not a figure of speech in French in this type of circumstance. This is another inconsistency in handling of the two players by the Independent Commission that Liverpool Football Club would argue.

      The fact Evra came off the field and into the changing room and said to four Manchester United team mates that Suarez had racially abused him, there is no way Liverpool Football Club could challenge whether this conversation took place so had to accept he told four team mates he was abused racially with Suarez saying he doesn’t talk to Blacks.

      The Independent Commission used the fact that Evra told HIS teammates what happened as a way of establishing that he must have been telling the truth to his teammates and that it then lends more credibility to his story (see Paragraph 324).

      The Independent Commission went on to say that the question was that if Evra had made this all up how did he so quickly after the game and why would he? (see Paragraph 325) Liverpool Football Club tried to show how Evra was wound up during the game from the coin toss where he disagreed with the referee, calling him a liar, to three other incidents during the game (see paragraph 329 – 332) all of which was rejected out of hand by the Independent Commission.

      The Independent Commission then took Suarez’s background hereditary, social and professional and concluded “Bearing these considerations in mind, whilst we were initially doubtful that Mr Suarez would make the comments alleged by Mr Evra, we proceeded on the basis that the factors

      relied on in relation to Mr Suarez’s background and experiences did not mean that he could not or would not act in this way. We weighed these considerations together with all the evidence when asking ourselves whose account was more probable.” (Paragraph 345)

      “Mr Evra denied using the words “South American” when speaking to Mr Suarez. When it was put to him that he had done so, he seemed genuinely bemused. He said to address someone as “South American” in this way is not something he would do. He said “What’s the sense? What’s the point?”. There was no evidence of Mr Evra using this phrase on any other occasions.” (Paragraph 363)

      The Independent Commission then stated “We found that Mr Evra did not use the words “South American” when speaking to Mr Suarez. The language experts were not familiar with its use as an insult, Mr Evra’s denial of his alleged use of it was plausible, we found Mr Suarez’s evidence unreliable in many respects, and we found Mr Evra generally to be a credible witness.” (Paragraph 364) There was absolutely no investigation using video or otherwise to establish whether Evra had or had not called Suarez South American but instead took his word for it.

      The conclusions from this point forward are not based on any evidence but only based on Evra’s account of what actually happened. The fact that the Independent Commission and journalist are stating Suarez used the phrased or word 7 times in nothing to do with fact but based only on Evra’s statement or view point. Again, bear in mind that the burden of proof as agreed and stated by the Independent Commission was supposed to be above normal due to the serious nature of the case do you think there is enough evidence to say we will go with Evra’s word?

      What are the faults from Suarez, firstly, the fact he became muddled and his statement when translated into Spanish then English, then Spanish for verification and then English means there was room for some mistranslation or error. However, if you as a club are defending a player’s dignity then greater care should have been taken the legal team in preparing Suarez’s case file. There were a number of inconsistencies relating to the reasons why Suarez made a physical gesture to Evra and then from Suarez himself he became confused as to where he said what he said. This would not lend itself in a good light in any court at any standard as it does demonstrate a lack of coherence.

      However, the biggest question to ask is whether the fact that somebody who cannot fully communicate in the language of trail (English) speaking via an interpreter and not explaining in enough detail why he made physical gestures can be deemed enough evidence to state he is in the wrong on the whole incident. Suarez admitted to using the word when he did in the sentence that he did, yet he at no stage admitted using the word more than once. There was no witness evidence, audio evidence or video evidence to say he used the word more than once. Therefore, it was impossible to corroborate that he had indeed used the word more than once.

      The only possible outcome here could and perhaps should have been that the overwhelming evidence did not support either party. It is clear that Suarez has admitted using a word the Evra admitted to incorrectly interpreting and therefore took offence to it. Language experts state that the way Suarez used the word would not have been offensive or racist in his native tongue (the language the conversation took place in) or area he was from.

      Clearly, there is not enough evidence to demonstrate whether the word was repeated but it is also clear that Evra has been hurt and offended by a word that is not familiar to him. The fact that Evra does not believe Suarez to be a racist, given the fact his own grandfather was black then the finding should have been no further action but a warning to Liverpool Football Club and Suarez that he cannot use his native tongue with opponents on the field of play and the conversation should remain in English. Liverpool should have been fined for not educating their player correctly. That is all the evidence and facts allowed as a conclusion, not for the over the top total acceptance of Evra’s version of events.

      Liverpool Football Club have no alternative but to fight to clear their player’s name along with their own, however, how many people in all honesty would just take punishment if they were judged like that in your workplace. Would you not want to take your employer to an employment tribunal to ask for a fair trial or conclusion if your employer found you guilty of racists words or actions without any obvious evidence and just said that your accuser just performed better as a witness therefore they must be telling the truth? I cannot think of anybody who would take punishment which has such far reaching consequences for the rest of their lives based on somebody else’s word over yours.
      fields of anny rd
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
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      • 17,663 posts | 1961 
      Re: FA Suarez documents released
      Reply #504: Jan 03, 2012 06:17:58 pm
      2 good articles there.

      Just came in here to share with you the insight into your average fan.

      In the pub with my mate yesterday, conversation got a bit slow so we moved onto Suarez.

      He said and I quote "So Suarez did racially abuse Evra" I replied "Well that is what the FA's farcical report said, but it is yet to be proven"

      My mate replies "No, he did it said on SKY Sports News that he said Negro 7 times"

      That there is a said indictment of 1) my mate and 2) Sky Sports News.
      RedLFCBlood
      • Guest
      Re: FA Suarez documents released
      Reply #505: Jan 03, 2012 06:34:49 pm
      Liverpool will not appeal against Luis Suarez's misconduct charge and his eight match suspension begins tonight: http://bit.ly/wGZE19

      8 game ban starting tonight it is then.

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