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      Thatcher was told drunk fans caused Hillsborough.

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      shabbadoo
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      Thatcher was told drunk fans caused Hillsborough.
      Mar 15, 2012 01:29:00 pm
      Thatcher was told drunk fans caused Hillsborough, papers say


      Thatcher was told drunk fans caused Hillsborough, papers say
      By Jon Manel
      BBC Radio 4

      Bereaved families have been calling for the release of secret government and police papers about the disaster
      Continue reading the main story
      Related Stories

      Hillsborough: The Thatcher papers
      Hillsborough files to be released
      How the Hillsborough disaster happened
      Former PM Margaret Thatcher was told a senior Merseyside police officer blamed "drunken Liverpool fans" for causing the Hillsborough disaster, confidential government documents have revealed.

      The BBC has seen leaked briefings about Britain's worst sports tragedy.

      Ninety-six football fans died after a crush on overcrowded terraces at an FA Cup Semi Final in April 1989.

      The official inquiry said the disaster was caused by the failure in crowd control by South Yorkshire Police.

      Letters to and from 10 Downing Street and cabinet minutes that show what Mrs, now Lady, Thatcher was discussing and being told behind the scenes have been made public for the first time by BBC Radio 4's The World at One.

      For years, the families of those who died have been calling for the release of secret government and police papers relating to the disaster.

      The government has agreed that this will happen.

      The Hillsborough Independent Panel, set up in 2009, is reviewing hundreds of documents but they are not expected to be made available to the families of those who died or to the wider public until later this year.

      It is thought there will be thousands of pages to sift through.

      The most controversial issue in the papers that the BBC has seen relates to what Mrs Thatcher was being told about the views of some senior members of the Merseyside Police Force.

      'Deeply ashamed'
      They are contained in a letter sent to the prime minister from a member of her policy unit in Downing Street. Four days after the disaster, the adviser attended a long planned meeting with the Chief Constable of Merseyside Police, the late Sir Kenneth Oxford, and some of his senior colleagues.

      It is important to bear in mind that this was written just days after the Hillsborough disaster and the views of the chief constable and those of his senior officers may well have changed over the subsequent weeks.

      According to the letter, the Merseyside chief constable said: "A key factor in causing the disaster was the fact that large numbers of Liverpool fans had turned up without tickets.

      "This was getting lost sight of in attempts to blame the police, the football authorities, etc."

      The prime minister was informed that a senior member of the Merseyside Police directly blamed supporters: "One officer, born and bred in Liverpool, said that he was deeply ashamed to say that it was drunken Liverpool fans who had caused this disaster, just as they had caused the deaths at Heysel."

      This officer is not named.

      Hundreds were injured and 39 supporters died when rioting Liverpool fans charged Juventus fans before the 1985 European Cup Final at the Heysel stadium on 29 May 1985. It led to a blanket ban of English clubs from European competition for five years.

      More of the views of the chief constable are also referred to: "He deplored the press's morbid concentration on pictures of bodies. He was also uneasy about the way in which Anfield was being turned into a shrine."

      Direct to Downing Street
      There is nothing in the documents the BBC has seen about any briefings from South Yorkshire Police. It is possible more will become known about that when many other confidential papers are officially released in a few months time.


      The government has promised to release files relating to Margaret Thatcher and Hillsborough
      Instead, we have learnt about the controversial views of some of Liverpool's own senior police officers and how, just days after the disaster, they were being passed on directly to 10 Downing Street and to Mrs Thatcher.

      Other Downing Street papers seen by the BBC provide an insight into what the prime minister was saying and discussing with her cabinet colleagues in the days after Hillsborough.

      The main issue of discussion contained in these documents was the effect the disaster was going to have on controversial legislation aimed at controlling the behaviour of football fans.

      The Football Spectators' Bill was already going through Parliament. The government was determined to continue with it, in order to introduce a national membership scheme for the sport. This would have brought in what were dubbed as identity cards for football fans.

      According to the conclusions of the first cabinet meeting to take place after the disaster, Mrs Thatcher told her ministers that the situation on crowd safety and hooliganism at football matches "cried out for action".

      The government wanted the legislation to be passed in time for the following year's World Cup finals in Italy - to reduce the prospect of crowd trouble. The meeting also discussed using it to bring in any interim recommendations from the Hillsborough Inquiry.

      'Gravest matter'
      In another meeting with senior cabinet colleagues which took place on the same day, the prime minister said: "To abstain from taking action… would be the gravest possible matter, now that the need for this action had been so conclusively demonstrated."

      Five days later, Home Secretary Douglas Hurd met the man conducting the official inquiry into Hillsborough, Lord Justice Taylor.

      A letter written by a civil servant at the Home Office says Mr Hurd told the judge about the government's proposed new timetable to get the football spectators' legislation passed by Parliament.

      He then asked Lord Justice Taylor what he would say if the government went ahead with this and then asked "…whether he was really quite sure that it was out of the question to form and express a view on the subject of membership cards in the three and a half months… between the start of the inquiry… and the end of August?"

      According to the letter, Lord Justice Taylor told him that "this was possible, but he was not confident that it could be achieved".

      He said his priority was establishing the facts of what had happened at Hillsborough and could not promise to come up with any recommendations on membership cards in time to fit in with the government's political schedule.

      The prime minister was told what had happened in a briefing note from her principal private secretary, who informed her: "Lord Justice Taylor was distinctly unhelpful."

      In the end, the government did press ahead with its plans and the law was passed. However, the following year, in his report, Lord Justice Taylor said he had "grave doubts" about the feasibility of football membership cards and "serious misgivings" about the scheme's likely impact on safety. As a result of his concerns, the government dropped the scheme and it was never implemented.


      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17382896
      stuey
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      Re: Thatcher was told drunk fans caused Hillsborough.
      Reply #1: Mar 15, 2012 01:53:41 pm
      The establishment in the form of the witch Thatcher and "a senior Merseyside unnamed police officer" begin thirty years of deceit and lies which continues to this day.
      Her clone that is Cameron while promising truth and clarity is as devious as the Tory demi God they worship. 
      FATKOPITE10
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      Re: Thatcher was told drunk fans caused Hillsborough.
      Reply #2: Mar 15, 2012 01:58:37 pm
      Well done to the BBC for getting some blood out of a very big stone.
      gopher
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      Re: Thatcher was told drunk fans caused Hillsborough.
      Reply #3: Mar 15, 2012 02:25:58 pm
      Just heard this report on the news, shocked that a senior Merseyside officer could state this, beyond belief!
      LFCexiled
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      Re: Thatcher was told drunk fans caused Hillsborough.
      Reply #4: Mar 15, 2012 02:40:07 pm
      Just heard this report on the news, shocked that a senior Merseyside officer could state this, beyond belief!

      The establishment come in many forms mate, just because the title 'senior MERSEYSIDE officer' is used is of no consequence as the culpability of many caused them to react by covering their own cowardly arses.
      HUYTON RED
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      Re: Thatcher was told drunk fans caused Hillsborough.
      Reply #5: Mar 15, 2012 04:15:15 pm
      Just heard this report on the news, shocked that a senior Merseyside officer could state this, beyond belief!

      Why not, someone who was involved in the cover up went on to become Chief Cuntsable of Merseyside Police.
      LFCexiled
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      Re: Thatcher was told drunk fans caused Hillsborough.
      Reply #6: Mar 15, 2012 04:28:46 pm
      Not long to go now:

      The Panel is expected to complete its work by April 2012, culminating with the publication of its research-based report.

      http://www.qub.ac.uk/schools/SchoolofLaw/Research/ResearchProjects/TheHillsboroughIndependentPanelResearchProject/

      Having said that, these panels alway suffer delays so I'd be surprised if it happens in April. Anyone have any more information?
      JD
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      Re: Thatcher was told drunk fans caused Hillsborough.
      Reply #7: Mar 15, 2012 06:11:26 pm
      We were well aware with the links to a South Yorkshire Conservative MP and the South Yorkshire force, but these comments from Merseyside Police are something of a surprise.

      Look forward to the panel completing it's work and publishing its report.
      stuey
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      Re: Thatcher was told drunk fans caused Hillsborough.
      Reply #8: Mar 15, 2012 07:18:26 pm
      Who has "leaked" this "news" and why has it been done now?
      Only a high ranking civil servant or indeed an MP would have access to the information.
      We in Liverpool have been only too well aware of the efforts of the witch Thatcher and her allies in the police force to blame the supporters, having no conscience whatever about the 96 who perished as a direct result of their actions.
      The chief constable of Liverpool at the time Sir Shithead Oxford was roundly condemned for his comments days after the horror when he made the quoted statements in the "leak". They were acknowledged as obscene bullshit when the man made the allegations having no connection or knowledge of the circumstances surrounding the tragedy, coincidently he mirrored the witch Thatcher and her lies.
      The fuckers are running scared and the Tory liars are unwilling to put their heads on the block so they regurgitate lies by an expired police officer and a senile but still evil old witch.

                                                                          JFT96 is getting nearer
      MIRO
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      Re: Thatcher was told drunk fans caused Hillsborough.
      Reply #9: Mar 15, 2012 08:13:21 pm
      Who has "leaked" this "news" and why has it been done now?
      Only a high ranking civil servant or indeed an MP would have access to the information.
      We in Liverpool have been only too well aware of the efforts of the witch Thatcher and her allies in the police force to blame the supporters, having no conscience whatever about the 96 who perished as a direct result of their actions.
      The chief constable of Liverpool at the time Sir Shithead Oxford was roundly condemned for his comments days after the horror when he made the quoted statements in the "leak". They were acknowledged as obscene bullshit when the man made the allegations having no connection or knowledge of the circumstances surrounding the tragedy, coincidently he mirrored the witch Thatcher and her lies.
      The fuckers are running scared and the Tory liars are unwilling to put their heads on the block so they regurgitate lies by an expired police officer and a senile but still evil old witch.

                                                                          JFT96 is getting nearer

      Forces at work Stu.
      Karma.
      LFCexiled
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      Re: Thatcher was told drunk fans caused Hillsborough.
      Reply #10: Mar 15, 2012 08:51:00 pm
      Who has "leaked" this "news" and why has it been done now?
      Only a high ranking civil servant or indeed an MP would have access to the information.
      We in Liverpool have been only too well aware of the efforts of the witch Thatcher and her allies in the police force to blame the supporters, having no conscience whatever about the 96 who perished as a direct result of their actions.
      The chief constable of Liverpool at the time Sir Shithead Oxford was roundly condemned for his comments days after the horror when he made the quoted statements in the "leak". They were acknowledged as obscene bullshit when the man made the allegations having no connection or knowledge of the circumstances surrounding the tragedy, coincidently he mirrored the witch Thatcher and her lies.
      The fuckers are running scared and the Tory liars are unwilling to put their heads on the block so they regurgitate lies by an expired police officer and a senile but still evil old witch.

                                                                          JFT96 is getting nearer

      Can't find the link now but I read today that the 'bbc has learned' this information, not sure if it was part of another freedom of information request.

      I usually take little leaks like this as a precurser to the storm so as to get 'the public' slowly but surely used to the inevitable outcome.

      Hillsborough relatives outraged by 'drunken Liverpool fans' claim

      • Leaked letter reveals what Merseyside police told government
      • Unnamed senior officer blamed Liverpool fans for disaster
      • Mother of victim brands comments 'absolutely appalling'


      Relatives of those killed in the 1989 Hillsborough disaster have reacted with anger after leaked documents showed a senior police officer initially told the government "drunken Liverpool fans" were to blame.

      Previously secret documents relating to the disaster are being reviewed by the Hillsborough Independent Panel, but they are not expected to be made available to the families or to the public until later this year.

      However, among the documents leaked to the BBC is a letter sent to the then-prime minister, Margaret Thatcher, from a member of her policy unit in Downing Street four days after the disaster, which details the initial version of events put forward by the chief constable of Merseyside police, the late Sir Kenneth Oxford, and some of his senior colleagues.

      According to the letter, addressed to Mrs Thatcher and headed "Merseyside Police views on Hillsborough", the Merseyside chief constable told officials: "A key factor in causing the disaster was the fact that large numbers of Liverpool fans had turned up without tickets. This was getting lost sight of in attempts to blame the police, the football authorities, etc."

      The letter went on to report that a senior member of the Merseyside police directly blamed supporters: "One officer, born and bred in Liverpool, said that he was deeply ashamed to say that it was drunken Liverpool fans who had caused this disaster, just as they had caused the deaths at Heysel."

      The chief constable was also said to have "deplored the press's morbid concentration on pictures of bodies. He was also uneasy about the way in which Anfield was being turned into a shrine."

      The note is initialled "MT", suggesting it was read by Mrs Thatcher, and the phrase "drunken Liverpool fans" is one of a number of passages underlined by hand.

      The World at One programme said none of the papers it had seen referred to the views of the South Yorkshire force.

      Margaret Aspinall, whose 18-year-old son, James, died in the tragedy and who now chairs the Hillsborough Families Support Group, branded the comments a "disgrace".

      "They [the police] watched videos of what happened that day and they [have seen] survivors running along with bodies and maybe people who may be still alive on hoardings. They [the survivors] were the heroes that day," she told The World at One.

      "I find all of that absolutely appalling. Ninety-six lives and he was uneasy about it made into a shrine. The people who were there that day – the survivors, the fans – all needed somewhere to go to show respect and to be grateful that no more had died. He was ashamed that was made into a shrine. How appalling is that?"

      Mrs Aspinall said she hoped there would be no further leaks before the independent panel "release the full picture".

      She said: "The panel is there to scrutinise the documents and present a balanced report. It doesn't help the families of the victims, the survivors or the fans to have pieces of the jigsaw come out piece by piece, that is not how we will get to the truth."

      Sheila Coleman of the Hillsborough Justice Campaign said she was disgusted but not surprised by the views expressed by the police.

      "Those of us who were around Liverpool in the 1980s are well aware of Ken Oxford's racist and bigoted views. Presumably he recruited senior officers with a similar mindset," she told the programme. "We are obviously disgusted with the views of Merseyside police but to some of us that will come as no surprise."

      She also expressed concern at the timing of the leak and the fact that none of the papers related to the South Yorkshire force.

      "That makes us very suspicious of how this information was leaked," she said. "Merseyside police would have been informed by South Yorkshire police. We find it a strange coincidence that this information is leaked only days after we found out the panel are not going to report until the autumn."

      Richard Kemp, the Liberal Democrat mayoral candidate for Liverpool, said: "The appalling news that Margaret Thatcher was being briefed by the police that Liverpool fans were drunk explains a lot in terms of the way the issues have been dealt with by central government for the past 23 years.

      "I am delighted that this government is releasing all documents, no matter how sensitive they are, so that grieving families can at last feel that all the truth has been brought into the public view."

      The Labour MP Andy Burnham said: "These papers seem to confirm what we've believed for many, many years – that immediate attempts were made from the highest levels to shift the blame on to the supporters and away from the police. The truth must be told and the people of Liverpool must have an apology for one of the greatest injustices of the 20th century."

      http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/mar/15/hillsborough-relatives-liverpool-fans-claim
      stuey
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      Re: Thatcher was told drunk fans caused Hillsborough.
      Reply #11: Mar 15, 2012 09:23:36 pm
                                ^                  ^
      Definitely heard it was a leak mate Andy Burnham was saying as much in an interview on the TV, no doubt the information was made available to the BBC hence the term "the BBC has learned". Dirty tricks and cover ups is all they have to counter the truth and as said previously they have to regurgitate some borderline libelous rhetoric from a dead policeman and demented old witch.
      It doesn't matter reallistically and the claims have been dismissed many times before and proved baseless, it's very surprising the quotes about supporters urinating and robbing.....I can't even bring myself to type it.
      It's obscene, have these people got no principles or children of their own?
      The families will get justice and these monsters will be exposed for what they are.   
      « Last Edit: Mar 15, 2012 09:35:37 pm by stuey »
      Dadorious
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      Re: Thatcher was told drunk fans caused Hillsborough.
      Reply #12: Mar 15, 2012 09:52:10 pm
      The truth is slowly emerging and those accountable should be punished.

      JFT96
      stuey
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      Re: Thatcher was told drunk fans caused Hillsborough.
      Reply #13: Mar 15, 2012 10:03:53 pm
      Indeed Skip.
      ayrton77
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      Re: Thatcher was told drunk fans caused Hillsborough.
      Reply #14: Mar 16, 2012 05:22:29 am
      Not long to go now:

      The Panel is expected to complete its work by April 2012, culminating with the publication of its research-based report.

      http://www.qub.ac.uk/schools/SchoolofLaw/Research/ResearchProjects/TheHillsboroughIndependentPanelResearchProject/

      Having said that, these panels alway suffer delays so I'd be surprised if it happens in April. Anyone have any more information?

      Well, in the article you posted it says:

      We find it a strange coincidence that this information is leaked only days after we found out the panel are not going to report until the autumn."
      stuey
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      Re: Thatcher was told drunk fans caused Hillsborough.
      Reply #15: Mar 16, 2012 08:34:43 am
      Well, in the article you posted it says:

      They will duck and dive Ayrton in an effort to confuse and hinder.
      Their strategy is short term of course and the correct procedure is ultimately followed.
      Postponing enquiries, renaming enquiries. new enquiries, re-convened enquiries, have gone on for over 23 years and they still strive to confuse, Exileds' quotations are a perfect examples of their conduct.
      RedLFCBlood
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      Re: Thatcher was told drunk fans caused Hillsborough.
      Reply #16: Mar 16, 2012 11:34:50 am
      One thing I can say about the BBC is they don't hate us, all the way through the Suarez affair three of their sports Journalists were questioning the FA report and the FA's decision and now this.

      Whilst its bad news for Mersey Side police, its great news for all the families affected by Hillsborough as its the start of the truth coming to the forefront, its just a shame that its took so long.

      JFT96
      LFCexiled
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      Re: Thatcher was told drunk fans caused Hillsborough.
      Reply #17: Mar 16, 2012 03:15:25 pm
      Well, in the article you posted it says:

      Apologies, I should've highlighted it.
      stuey
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      Re: Thatcher was told drunk fans caused Hillsborough.
      Reply #18: Mar 16, 2012 03:51:52 pm
      One thing I can say about the BBC is they don't hate us, all the way through the Suarez affair three of their sports Journalists were questioning the FA report and the FA's decision and now this.

      Whilst its bad news for Mersey Side police, its great news for all the families affected by Hillsborough as its the start of the truth coming to the forefront, its just a shame that its took so long.

      JFT96
      It has taken so long Daz because of the actions of the Merseyside and Yorkshire police who together with the witch Thatcher put up as many obstacles as they could to delay the process. Delay is the right description because deceit on this scale is not sustainable.
      HUYTON RED
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      Re: Thatcher was told drunk fans caused Hillsborough.
      Reply #19: Mar 16, 2012 03:58:57 pm
      The BBC have been used badly imo. All documents should be released in the proper fashion, not as and when some Whitehall mandarin decides to leak information to suit a particular agenda. It stinks and unfortunately the BBC seem to be very willing to feed other peoples agendas as Robert Peston has been proving all through the Press Complaints Committee findings.
      HUYTON RED
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      Re: Thatcher was told drunk fans caused Hillsborough.
      Reply #20: Mar 16, 2012 04:01:39 pm
      Quote
      Statement on Hillsborough document leak

      From Council Leader Joe Anderson and Chief Executive Ged Fitzgerald

      You may have picked up in the media that there has been a leak of what appears to be a very sensitive document to a BBC reporter, relating to events at Hillsborough in 1989.

      It appears that material has been leaked from documents currently being reviewed by the Hillsborough Panel.

      As many of you will be aware, the independent Panel was set up to sift through all the documentation about Hillsborough from all public sources. The Panel is currently working through the many thousands of records in order to place them in a sensible and structured way into the public domain at a date to be confirmed, but probably in the summer. The plan is to release all the available documents to the families and then make them make publicly available.

      This leak itself is reprehensible - especially given the subject matter and the quotes apparently involved. But the way in which this leak has been covered by the BBC is totally insensitive and sensationalist. Surely the responsible thing to have done with the material would have been to hold on to it until the Panel was in a position to release ALL the material and in the right way? We have made this point to the BBC.

      Locally, we know the lies and falsehoods told about Hillsborough over the years. This "story" has only added to those falsehoods and added yet further distortions.

      We will keep you informed about when the findings of the Panel are to be made public.

      Councillor Joe Anderson, Council Leader
      Ged Fitzgerald, Chief Executive

      Friday 16 March 2012
      stuey
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      Re: Thatcher was told drunk fans caused Hillsborough.
      Reply #21: Mar 16, 2012 04:04:34 pm
      The BBC have been used badly imo. All documents should be released in the proper fashion, not as and when some Whitehall mandarin decides to leak information to suit a particular agenda. It stinks and unfortunately the BBC seem to be very willing to feed other peoples agendas as Robert Peston has been proving all through the Press Complaints Committee findings.
      Not forgetting mate the government do have their finger in the pie with the BBC and them exerting some pressure is not beyond the realms of possibility.
      shabbadoo
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      Re: Thatcher was told drunk fans caused Hillsborough.
      Reply #22: Mar 16, 2012 04:29:44 pm
      Drip drip feeding the public via leaks is a way to sanatize joe Public who are not to familiar with the events that unfolded on that tragic day when 96 innocent LFC supporters lost their lives and the dispicable events that followed after the tragedy by the establishment and that sh*te rag in covering up the police and goverments failiure in protecting the people & peddling lies against them and the survivors.

      As always Truth overcomes Falsehood as is the case regarding our 96 and after many painful years we are starting to see the truth emerge from the very same establishment that tried to supress it.

      JFT96.

      YNWA.

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