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      Judgment in the Transfer Market

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      thanks2shanks
      • Forum Didi Hamann
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      Judgment in the Transfer Market
      Apr 01, 2012 04:50:24 pm
      When we dominated in the 70s and 80s, our record in the transfer market was superb.  With very few exceptions, the signings made by Shankly, Paisley, Fagan and Dalglish worked really well.

      Our transfer policy since than has been much less effective.  Today's Sunday Times compared Newcastle's recent purchases to ours and concluded that they've done better, more cost-effective business.  Between them, Ben Arfa, Tiote, Cabaye, Ba and Cisse cost £19.3 million (£700,000 less than we paid for Downing).

      Who knew (I didn't) that comedian Jimmy Carr's father is Newcastle's chief scout?  He seems to have an eye for a bargain.

      Until we regain our magic touch in the transfer market, I fear we'll continue to struggle.
      tezmac
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      Re: Judgment in the Transfer Market
      Reply #1: Apr 01, 2012 04:52:15 pm
      Well with the sh*te bought last season will we be given a decent transfer kitty
      dunlop liddell shankly
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      Re: Judgment in the Transfer Market
      Reply #2: Apr 01, 2012 06:07:44 pm
      There's a number of reasons why we were more successful in the transfer market in yesteryear.

      Firstly, we signed players from lower league teams so the expectation wasn't as high as it is today. Ian Rush, when signed, wasn't expected to come in and win us the League single handedly whereas it appears that Andy Carroll is.

      Secondly, we bought players based on what they were like as people as much as what they were like as players. I doubt we'd of bought somebody with Suarez' record of controversy back in our hay-day. Now that doesn't seem too important which is why we've had players with discipline problems like Ince, Diouf, Suarez, Bellamy (before he matured) among others.

      Thirdly, we used to sign players and more often than not would have them sitting in our reserves for a year or two to learn the ways of the club before putting them into the pressure of first team football. Now, due to the ridiculous inflated transfer prices, players are thrown straight in and are expected to be world class players.

      Fourthly, we were much more patient as fans and didn't jump down the throats of our players at the first sign of trouble.

      Fifthly, we were much more successful as a team meaning new players could just slot into a winning side. It's much easier to play for a side that is winning than a side on decline.
      pool07
      • Forum Alf Arrowsmith
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      Re: Judgment in the Transfer Market
      Reply #3: Apr 01, 2012 06:14:45 pm
      There's a number of reasons why we were more successful in the transfer market in yesteryear.

      Firstly, we signed players from lower league teams so the expectation wasn't as high as it is today. Ian Rush, when signed, wasn't expected to come in and win us the League single handedly whereas it appears that Andy Carroll is.

      Secondly, we bought players based on what they were like as people as much as what they were like as players. I doubt we'd of bought somebody with Suarez' record of controversy back in our hay-day. Now that doesn't seem too important which is why we've had players with discipline problems like Ince, Diouf, Suarez, Bellamy (before he matured) among others.

      Thirdly, we used to sign players and more often than not would have them sitting in our reserves for a year or two to learn the ways of the club before putting them into the pressure of first team football. Now, due to the ridiculous inflated transfer prices, players are thrown straight in and are expected to be world class players.

      Fourthly, we were much more patient as fans and didn't jump down the throats of our players at the first sign of trouble.

      Fifthly, we were much more successful as a team meaning new players could just slot into a winning side. It's much easier to play for a side that is winning than a side on decline.
      Great post.
      MIRO
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      Re: Judgment in the Transfer Market
      Reply #4: Apr 01, 2012 06:32:23 pm
      Today's Sunday Times compared Newcastle's recent purchases to ours and concluded that they've done better, more cost-effective business.  Between them, Ben Arfa, Tiote, Cabaye, Ba and Cisse cost £19.3 million £700,000 less than we paid for Downing

      Well we've got MoneyBollocks havent we.  :mad:
      The greatest thing in the world if you are a baseball team FFS..
       :lmao:
      davepolo
      • Forum Ronnie Moran
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      Re: Judgment in the Transfer Market
      Reply #5: Apr 01, 2012 06:37:06 pm
      well said some of our fans havent a clue

      There's a number of reasons why we were more successful in the transfer market in yesteryear.

      Firstly, we signed players from lower league teams so the expectation wasn't as high as it is today. Ian Rush, when signed, wasn't expected to come in and win us the League single handedly whereas it appears that Andy Carroll is.

      Secondly, we bought players based on what they were like as people as much as what they were like as players. I doubt we'd of bought somebody with Suarez' record of controversy back in our hay-day. Now that doesn't seem too important which is why we've had players with discipline problems like Ince, Diouf, Suarez, Bellamy (before he matured) among others.

      Thirdly, we used to sign players and more often than not would have them sitting in our reserves for a year or two to learn the ways of the club before putting them into the pressure of first team football. Now, due to the ridiculous inflated transfer prices, players are thrown straight in and are expected to be world class players.

      Fourthly, we were much more patient as fans and didn't jump down the throats of our players at the first sign of trouble.

      Fifthly, we were much more successful as a team meaning new players could just slot into a winning side. It's much easier to play for a side that is winning than a side on decline.
      corballyred
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      Re: Judgment in the Transfer Market
      Reply #6: Apr 01, 2012 06:38:22 pm
      well said some of our fans havent a clue


      Ya id agree with that not for the same reasons as you though
      Billy1
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      Re: Judgment in the Transfer Market
      Reply #7: Apr 02, 2012 04:27:33 am
      There's a number of reasons why we were more successful in the transfer market in yesteryear.

      Firstly, we signed players from lower league teams so the expectation wasn't as high as it is today. Ian Rush, when signed, wasn't expected to come in and win us the League single handedly whereas it appears that Andy Carroll is.

      Secondly, we bought players based on what they were like as people as much as what they were like as players. I doubt we'd of bought somebody with Suarez' record of controversy back in our hay-day. Now that doesn't seem too important which is why we've had players with discipline problems like Ince, Diouf, Suarez, Bellamy (before he matured) among others.

      Thirdly, we used to sign players and more often than not would have them sitting in our reserves for a year or two to learn the ways of the club before putting them into the pressure of first team football. Now, due to the ridiculous inflated transfer prices, players are thrown straight in and are expected to be world class players.

      Fourthly, we were much more patient as fans and didn't jump down the throats of our players at the first sign of trouble.

      Fifthly, we were much more successful as a team meaning new players could just slot into a winning side. It's much easier to play for a side that is winning than a side on decline.
      You are spot on Billy,I am sure  that a thorough background cherck was done on all players before we bought them.The odd one or two might have slipped under the radar but that was rare.Another thing was we had a fair number of local players in the team who would run through a brick wall for L.F.C. I refer to the likes of Gerry Byrne,Chris Lawler,Tommy Smith Ian Callaghan and Roger Hunt was a local as far as I was concerned,as you say we also bought players from the lower divisions and made them stars.I refer to the likes of Ray Clemence,Keegan,Alec Lindsay etc, and many others.
      Arrie
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      Re: Judgment in the Transfer Market
      Reply #8: Apr 02, 2012 07:14:15 am
      There's a number of reasons why we were more successful in the transfer market in yesteryear.

      Firstly, we signed players from lower league teams so the expectation wasn't as high as it is today. Ian Rush, when signed, wasn't expected to come in and win us the League single handedly whereas it appears that Andy Carroll is.

      Secondly, we bought players based on what they were like as people as much as what they were like as players. I doubt we'd of bought somebody with Suarez' record of controversy back in our hay-day. Now that doesn't seem too important which is why we've had players with discipline problems like Ince, Diouf, Suarez, Bellamy (before he matured) among others.

      Thirdly, we used to sign players and more often than not would have them sitting in our reserves for a year or two to learn the ways of the club before putting them into the pressure of first team football. Now, due to the ridiculous inflated transfer prices, players are thrown straight in and are expected to be world class players.

      Fourthly, we were much more patient as fans and didn't jump down the throats of our players at the first sign of trouble.

      Fifthly, we were much more successful as a team meaning new players could just slot into a winning side. It's much easier to play for a side that is winning than a side on decline.
      I bet. One year from now if we are in the same position and we won a league cup again. You'd still say this same thing. You'd blame everything but kenny.
      Eddieo
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      Re: Judgment in the Transfer Market
      Reply #9: Apr 02, 2012 07:57:28 am
       The main problem is other teams offer more be it CL football, a better chance off winning trophies and a larger pay packet, these are Liverpool main problems when it come to transfer

       Last summer it appeared that Jones and Young were going to come here both ended up at Man U

       It is not our judgement that has gone wrong it is the package we are offering to players that has gone wrong !   
      Paisleydalglish
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      Re: Judgment in the Transfer Market
      Reply #10: Apr 02, 2012 12:05:28 pm


      Who knew (I didn't) that comedian Jimmy Carr's father is Newcastle's chief scout?  He seems to have an eye for a bargain.


      Alan Carr's Dad.
      dunlop liddell shankly
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      Re: Judgment in the Transfer Market
      Reply #11: Apr 02, 2012 12:59:55 pm
      I bet. One year from now if we are in the same position and we won a league cup again. You'd still say this same thing. You'd blame everything but kenny.

      Yes I'd still have the same reasons as to why we were more successful in the transfer market in the past to what we are now. Mainly because it's true that we were more successful in the transfer market in the past to what we have been in the last 10-15 years. And my reasons, as stated above, are why we were more successful.
      dunlop liddell shankly
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      Re: Judgment in the Transfer Market
      Reply #12: Apr 02, 2012 01:01:33 pm
      a better chance off winning trophies

      Remind me again which side has won a trophy this year?
      Remind me again who are the only side to reach the semi finals of both major domestic cups this year?

      Then tell me which side have a better chance of winning trophies.
      onecoolcookie
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      Re: Judgment in the Transfer Market
      Reply #13: Apr 02, 2012 02:44:35 pm
      Remind me again which side has won a trophy this year?
      Remind me again who are the only side to reach the semi finals of both major domestic cups this year?

      Then tell me which side have a better chance of winning trophies.

      So you wouldn't swap our position now for Spurs Arsenal or Chelsea's? We cared not a jot about the Carling Cup til some media mogul came up with the 'silverware' generalisation, if the Mancs were going on about the stupid league cup like we are we'd be laughing at them. FA Cup holds more value but without doubt I'd instantly sacrifice both for 4th spot
      onecoolcookie
      • Forum Alan Hansen
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      Re: Judgment in the Transfer Market
      Reply #14: Apr 02, 2012 02:55:25 pm
      When we dominated in the 70s and 80s, our record in the transfer market was superb.  With very few exceptions, the signings made by Shankly, Paisley, Fagan and Dalglish worked really well.

      Our transfer policy since than has been much less effective.  Today's Sunday Times compared Newcastle's recent purchases to ours and concluded that they've done better, more cost-effective business.  Between them, Ben Arfa, Tiote, Cabaye, Ba and Cisse cost £19.3 million (£700,000 less than we paid for Downing).

      Who knew (I didn't) that comedian Jimmy Carr's father is Newcastle's chief scout?  He seems to have an eye for a bargain.

      Until we regain our magic touch in the transfer market, I fear we'll continue to struggle.

      on topic -

      This batch of signings has been compared to Ged's horrible decision making post world cup 2002 when Diouf Diao Cheyrou and some other tart I cant recall arrived in stead of Nicolas Anelka

      Unfortunately they appear to fulfilling the criticism: Taking it on the face of it: Charlie Adam and Jose Enrique are what they are a £6m midfielder and a £5m left back, you cant expect the world of them (Although I think Jose is better than he gets credit for)

      Henderson came out of left field and I suspect if he was French would've cost less than half that so we've been had by the homegrown rule (also I believe the £20m fee is well wide of the mark, its closer to £14m with add-ons due to his young age)

      Downing as far as I can tell was the runner up prize for whoever didn't get Ashley Young, decent winger but well over priced

      Carroll I think is Emile Heskey mk II, won't ever get 30 goals a season, but it's not Andy's fault if he can't get on the pitch, he dropped every other week and with front men they need a run to gain confidence and form. Dalglish's handling of him has been terrible

      Suarez is floundering, given far too much licence to roam and drop deep - we love it when he beats 5 mean in a space the same size a phone box but we'd love it more if he beat one and scored - get him a strike partner and keep him them up top

      Allegedly we don't have a lot of money in the summer and we don't exactly have oceans of talent to dispose of. The whole buy British thing is quite frankly bullshit as Newcastle are proving. We need good players regardless of nationality history and all that other tripe. An embodiment of the wrong attitude cant be seen below:

      "We've got a great togetherness about the squad, there's a lot of British players there now," Jamie Carragher said last October. "We went for a meal out before the derby and it was interesting that my wife could actually talk to some of the other wives without having to think of something in Spanish or French or something different. I think that will be a great thing for us this season."

      Jamie lad catch a grip
      bad boy bubby
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      Re: Judgment in the Transfer Market
      Reply #15: Apr 02, 2012 03:06:37 pm
      Until we regain our magic touch in the transfer market, I fear we'll continue to struggle.

      You're stating the obvious t2s but I can't see how it warrants it's own thread. Unless, maybe, you've got a solution. :-\

      Anyone with two fingers can identify and write about a problem or state the obvious but very few of them can offer a solution so...

      C'mon lads and ladies let's hear your solution to the age-old, World-wide, question: "What is the "magic" formula for successful transfers?"

      Eddieo
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      Re: Judgment in the Transfer Market
      Reply #16: Apr 02, 2012 03:22:58 pm
      Remind me again which side has won a trophy this year?
      Remind me again who are the only side to reach the semi finals of both major domestic cups this year?

      Then tell me which side have a better chance of winning trophies.
      Do you think winning the league cup is enough to attract the best player?
       Even if we win both trophies it is the CL that the best player want, if we dont make it into the CL not only will we find it hard to attract the best we will find it hard to keep our best players
      corballyred
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      Re: Judgment in the Transfer Market
      Reply #17: Apr 02, 2012 03:24:31 pm
      I think last summer policy was built around bringing the best out of Carroll and that has being a complete disaster.
      s@int
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      Re: Judgment in the Transfer Market
      Reply #18: Apr 02, 2012 03:26:05 pm
      You're stating the obvious t2s but I can't see how it warrants it's own thread. Unless, maybe, you've got a solution. :-\

      Anyone with two fingers can identify and write about a problem or state the obvious but very few of them can offer a solution so...

      C'mon lads and ladies let's hear your solution to the age-old, World-wide, question: "What is the "magic" formula for successful transfers?"



      Only buy players who's name ends in a vowel ..... simple.

      Ronaldo, Pele ,Messi, Zidane, Kaka, Baggio, Romario, Rivaldo, Figo, Ronaldinho (names that end in o seem pretty good )

      :) 
      harrydunn08
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      Re: Judgment in the Transfer Market
      Reply #19: Apr 02, 2012 03:36:49 pm
      Only buy players who's name ends in a vowel ..... simple.

      This!  So, we can look forward to the likes of Christoph Berra, Jaime O'Hara, Kevin Doyle, and Hugo Rodallega joining our ranks for next season!!!  League Title will be our in no time!!!   >:D
      dunlop liddell shankly
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      Re: Judgment in the Transfer Market
      Reply #20: Apr 02, 2012 03:37:32 pm
      So you wouldn't swap our position now for Spurs Arsenal or Chelsea's?

      No I wouldn't.

      We cared not a jot about the Carling Cup til some media mogul came up with the 'silverware' generalisation,

      No we've cared about the League Cup for years which is why we won four times in a row when we were at our best. It's since "some media mogul" came up with the notion that finishing fourth is an achievement that the League Cup has been sh*t on. It's since "some media mogul" decided that winning trophies is no longer a measurement of success but instead how many times you play in the Champions League is that the League Cup lost it's prestige. Well it didn't to me and I'm delighted we won it.


      if the Mancs were going on about the stupid league cup like we are we'd be laughing at them

      No we wouldn't. You might, but I wouldn't laugh at United for winning a major trophy. I laugh at Everton releasing a DVD over one Derby game when they won 3-0 but I wouldn't laugh at a club for winning trophies. I'd instead wish it was us picking up the trophy.


      Place in Europe, domestic cup, day out at Wembley - pretty much about the same.

      but without doubt I'd instantly sacrifice both for 4th spot

      Well that shows why we differ. I would much rather see us parade a trophy around Anfield and the streets of Liverpool than celebrate coming an embarrassingly low fourth place. If Liverpool fans are now celebrating fourth then it shows how far we have fallen.
      Scottbot
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      Re: Judgment in the Transfer Market
      Reply #21: Apr 02, 2012 03:43:47 pm
      C'mon lads and ladies let's hear your solution to the age-old, World-wide, question: "What is the "magic" formula for successful transfers?"

      It's tough one but i'll have a pop.

      1/ Decide how you want to play, have a vision.

      2/ Buy players to fit the vision you have for the side. If your given a bit if money to spend (as Kenny was this past summer) then spend it on players who fit. On the face of it the players seemed to fit what was required. We needed a left-back, in came Enrique, we needed a young developmental cenntre-half t back up the senior players, in came Coates. We needed a wide-man to lift a glaring weakness and provide better delivery into wide areas, in came Downing. We needed to strengthen the centre-mifield area, in came Adam and young Henderson.

      So from that respect, Kenny & Commoli seem to have recognised where the squad needed strengthening BUT the lads who have come in haven't been able to deliver. They were going ok to a point but (like everyone else) they have simply capitulated this past couple of months. Based on our results you have to say that the transfers have (overall) been a failure so far.

      For me the elephant in the room is Andy Carroll. He doesn't tick the 'buy players to fit your vision' box in any way and his (and Kenny's failure) to integrate with how we play has compromised the club. Listen to the way Kenny talks, watch our best performances over the past 15 months. It's clear the vision he has for this LFC side is to play in a similar way to the previous great sides. He wants the team to play with tempo, to keep the ball, to pass it well, to be creative and inventive, to have good movement etc. At least that's how i see it. Unfortunately big Andy doesn't and never will fit. Despite the ocassional decent performance you can't throw a big target man into your side and expect us to play the slick, up-tempo passing game we have often seen (without the results) under Dalglish. The lad's confidence is shot to pieces and unfortunately the massive outlay and the pressure to stick it out with him in the side meant it was almost impossible (at least without losing a lot of face) to go out and sign a top drawer finisher.

      That for me is our biggest problem alongside the fact that Downing is not (and likely won't be) the player Kenny hoped he would be for LFC. He's a decent Premiership player who was an upgrade on the position for us but has unfortunately continued to play as he has for much of his career ie. one great game, one poor game followed by three average games and vice versa. We don't have the quality in wide areas to make up for our lack of it inside when big Andy plays.

      I can't knock the signings of Enrique and Bellamy who were both astute buys for my mind. I defended Adam for virtually the whole season but it seems he is not the answer and while I don't rate Henderson I won't make an  absolute judgement on the lad because I never in a million years believed that Skrtel and Lucas would reach the performance levels we have seen from them so who knows we might still have a player on our hands. Same goes for Coates, it's wait and see.

      As for the background stuff it's an interesting question. I remember reading Shanks' autobiography years ago when i was a kid (he was before my time) and he said that he wasn't interested in seeing a player at home in a 5-0 win but wanted to see how a player handled a cold, wet night away in front of a tough crowd in order to see what a player is truly made of. I think the game has moved on someaht since then but I think he had a good point. 
      s@int
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      Re: Judgment in the Transfer Market
      Reply #22: Apr 02, 2012 03:44:13 pm
      This!  So, we can look forward to the likes of Christoph Berra, Jaime O'Hara, Kevin Doyle, and Hugo Rodallega joining our ranks for next season!!!  League Title will be our in no time!!!   >:D

      I missed one proviso off mate..... they also have to have won World/European player of the year also :)

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