Judgment in the Transfer Market

When we dominated in the 70s and 80s, our record in the transfer market was superb.  With very few exceptions, the signings made by Shankly, Paisley, Fagan and Dalglish worked really well.

Our transfer policy since than has been much less effective.  Today's Sunday Times compared Newcastle's recent purchases to ours and concluded that they've done better, more cost-effective business.  Between them, Ben Arfa, Tiote, Cabaye, Ba and Cisse cost £19.3 million (£700,000 less than we paid for Downing).

Who knew (I didn't) that comedian Jimmy Carr's father is Newcastle's chief scout?  He seems to have an eye for a bargain.

Until we regain our magic touch in the transfer market, I fear we'll continue to struggle.

Well with the sh*te bought last season will we be given a decent transfer kitty

There's a number of reasons why we were more successful in the transfer market in yesteryear.

Firstly, we signed players from lower league teams so the expectation wasn't as high as it is today. Ian Rush, when signed, wasn't expected to come in and win us the League single handedly whereas it appears that Andy Carroll is.

Secondly, we bought players based on what they were like as people as much as what they were like as players. I doubt we'd of bought somebody with Suarez' record of controversy back in our hay-day. Now that doesn't seem too important which is why we've had players with discipline problems like Ince, Diouf, Suarez, Bellamy (before he matured) among others.

Thirdly, we used to sign players and more often than not would have them sitting in our reserves for a year or two to learn the ways of the club before putting them into the pressure of first team football. Now, due to the ridiculous inflated transfer prices, players are thrown straight in and are expected to be world class players.

Fourthly, we were much more patient as fans and didn't jump down the throats of our players at the first sign of trouble.

Fifthly, we were much more successful as a team meaning new players could just slot into a winning side. It's much easier to play for a side that is winning than a side on decline.

There's a number of reasons why we were more successful in the transfer market in yesteryear.

Firstly, we signed players from lower league teams so the expectation wasn't as high as it is today. Ian Rush, when signed, wasn't expected to come in and win us the League single handedly whereas it appears that Andy Carroll is.

Secondly, we bought players based on what they were like as people as much as what they were like as players. I doubt we'd of bought somebody with Suarez' record of controversy back in our hay-day. Now that doesn't seem too important which is why we've had players with discipline problems like Ince, Diouf, Suarez, Bellamy (before he matured) among others.

Thirdly, we used to sign players and more often than not would have them sitting in our reserves for a year or two to learn the ways of the club before putting them into the pressure of first team football. Now, due to the ridiculous inflated transfer prices, players are thrown straight in and are expected to be world class players.

Fourthly, we were much more patient as fans and didn't jump down the throats of our players at the first sign of trouble.

Fifthly, we were much more successful as a team meaning new players could just slot into a winning side. It's much easier to play for a side that is winning than a side on decline.

Great post.

Today's Sunday Times compared Newcastle's recent purchases to ours and concluded that they've done better, more cost-effective business.  Between them, Ben Arfa, Tiote, Cabaye, Ba and Cisse cost £19.3 million £700,000 less than we paid for Downing

Well we've got MoneyBollocks havent we. 
The greatest thing in the world if you are a baseball team FFS..
 

well said some of our fans havent a clue

There's a number of reasons why we were more successful in the transfer market in yesteryear.

Firstly, we signed players from lower league teams so the expectation wasn't as high as it is today. Ian Rush, when signed, wasn't expected to come in and win us the League single handedly whereas it appears that Andy Carroll is.

Secondly, we bought players based on what they were like as people as much as what they were like as players. I doubt we'd of bought somebody with Suarez' record of controversy back in our hay-day. Now that doesn't seem too important which is why we've had players with discipline problems like Ince, Diouf, Suarez, Bellamy (before he matured) among others.

Thirdly, we used to sign players and more often than not would have them sitting in our reserves for a year or two to learn the ways of the club before putting them into the pressure of first team football. Now, due to the ridiculous inflated transfer prices, players are thrown straight in and are expected to be world class players.

Fourthly, we were much more patient as fans and didn't jump down the throats of our players at the first sign of trouble.

Fifthly, we were much more successful as a team meaning new players could just slot into a winning side. It's much easier to play for a side that is winning than a side on decline.

well said some of our fans havent a clue

Ya id agree with that not for the same reasons as you though

There's a number of reasons why we were more successful in the transfer market in yesteryear.

Firstly, we signed players from lower league teams so the expectation wasn't as high as it is today. Ian Rush, when signed, wasn't expected to come in and win us the League single handedly whereas it appears that Andy Carroll is.

Secondly, we bought players based on what they were like as people as much as what they were like as players. I doubt we'd of bought somebody with Suarez' record of controversy back in our hay-day. Now that doesn't seem too important which is why we've had players with discipline problems like Ince, Diouf, Suarez, Bellamy (before he matured) among others.

Thirdly, we used to sign players and more often than not would have them sitting in our reserves for a year or two to learn the ways of the club before putting them into the pressure of first team football. Now, due to the ridiculous inflated transfer prices, players are thrown straight in and are expected to be world class players.

Fourthly, we were much more patient as fans and didn't jump down the throats of our players at the first sign of trouble.

Fifthly, we were much more successful as a team meaning new players could just slot into a winning side. It's much easier to play for a side that is winning than a side on decline.

You are spot on Billy,I am sure  that a thorough background cherck was done on all players before we bought them.The odd one or two might have slipped under the radar but that was rare.Another thing was we had a fair number of local players in the team who would run through a brick wall for L.F.C. I refer to the likes of Gerry Byrne,Chris Lawler,Tommy Smith Ian Callaghan and Roger Hunt was a local as far as I was concerned,as you say we also bought players from the lower divisions and made them stars.I refer to the likes of Ray Clemence,Keegan,Alec Lindsay etc, and many others.

There's a number of reasons why we were more successful in the transfer market in yesteryear.

Firstly, we signed players from lower league teams so the expectation wasn't as high as it is today. Ian Rush, when signed, wasn't expected to come in and win us the League single handedly whereas it appears that Andy Carroll is.

Secondly, we bought players based on what they were like as people as much as what they were like as players. I doubt we'd of bought somebody with Suarez' record of controversy back in our hay-day. Now that doesn't seem too important which is why we've had players with discipline problems like Ince, Diouf, Suarez, Bellamy (before he matured) among others.

Thirdly, we used to sign players and more often than not would have them sitting in our reserves for a year or two to learn the ways of the club before putting them into the pressure of first team football. Now, due to the ridiculous inflated transfer prices, players are thrown straight in and are expected to be world class players.

Fourthly, we were much more patient as fans and didn't jump down the throats of our players at the first sign of trouble.

Fifthly, we were much more successful as a team meaning new players could just slot into a winning side. It's much easier to play for a side that is winning than a side on decline.

I bet. One year from now if we are in the same position and we won a league cup again. You'd still say this same thing. You'd blame everything but kenny.

 The main problem is other teams offer more be it CL football, a better chance off winning trophies and a larger pay packet, these are Liverpool main problems when it come to transfer

 Last summer it appeared that Jones and Young were going to come here both ended up at Man U

 It is not our judgement that has gone wrong it is the package we are offering to players that has gone wrong !   

Who knew (I didn't) that comedian Jimmy Carr's father is Newcastle's chief scout?  He seems to have an eye for a bargain.

Alan Carr's Dad.

I bet. One year from now if we are in the same position and we won a league cup again. You'd still say this same thing. You'd blame everything but kenny.

Yes I'd still have the same reasons as to why we were more successful in the transfer market in the past to what we are now. Mainly because it's true that we were more successful in the transfer market in the past to what we have been in the last 10-15 years. And my reasons, as stated above, are why we were more successful.

a better chance off winning trophies

Remind me again which side has won a trophy this year?
Remind me again who are the only side to reach the semi finals of both major domestic cups this year?

Then tell me which side have a better chance of winning trophies.

Remind me again which side has won a trophy this year?
Remind me again who are the only side to reach the semi finals of both major domestic cups this year?

Then tell me which side have a better chance of winning trophies.

So you wouldn't swap our position now for Spurs Arsenal or Chelsea's? We cared not a jot about the Carling Cup til some media mogul came up with the 'silverware' generalisation, if the Mancs were going on about the stupid league cup like we are we'd be laughing at them. FA Cup holds more value but without doubt I'd instantly sacrifice both for 4th spot

When we dominated in the 70s and 80s, our record in the transfer market was superb.  With very few exceptions, the signings made by Shankly, Paisley, Fagan and Dalglish worked really well.

Our transfer policy since than has been much less effective.  Today's Sunday Times compared Newcastle's recent purchases to ours and concluded that they've done better, more cost-effective business.  Between them, Ben Arfa, Tiote, Cabaye, Ba and Cisse cost £19.3 million (£700,000 less than we paid for Downing).

Who knew (I didn't) that comedian Jimmy Carr's father is Newcastle's chief scout?  He seems to have an eye for a bargain.

Until we regain our magic touch in the transfer market, I fear we'll continue to struggle.

on topic -

This batch of signings has been compared to Ged's horrible decision making post world cup 2002 when Diouf Diao Cheyrou and some other tart I cant recall arrived in stead of Nicolas Anelka

Unfortunately they appear to fulfilling the criticism: Taking it on the face of it: Charlie Adam and Jose Enrique are what they are a £6m midfielder and a £5m left back, you cant expect the world of them (Although I think Jose is better than he gets credit for)

Henderson came out of left field and I suspect if he was French would've cost less than half that so we've been had by the homegrown rule (also I believe the £20m fee is well wide of the mark, its closer to £14m with add-ons due to his young age)

Downing as far as I can tell was the runner up prize for whoever didn't get Ashley Young, decent winger but well over priced

Carroll I think is Emile Heskey mk II, won't ever get 30 goals a season, but it's not Andy's fault if he can't get on the pitch, he dropped every other week and with front men they need a run to gain confidence and form. Dalglish's handling of him has been terrible

Suarez is floundering, given far too much licence to roam and drop deep - we love it when he beats 5 mean in a space the same size a phone box but we'd love it more if he beat one and scored - get him a strike partner and keep him them up top

Allegedly we don't have a lot of money in the summer and we don't exactly have oceans of talent to dispose of. The whole buy British thing is quite frankly bullshit as Newcastle are proving. We need good players regardless of nationality history and all that other tripe. An embodiment of the wrong attitude cant be seen below:

"We've got a great togetherness about the squad, there's a lot of British players there now," Jamie Carragher said last October. "We went for a meal out before the derby and it was interesting that my wife could actually talk to some of the other wives without having to think of something in Spanish or French or something different. I think that will be a great thing for us this season."

Jamie lad catch a grip

Until we regain our magic touch in the transfer market, I fear we'll continue to struggle.

You're stating the obvious t2s but I can't see how it warrants it's own thread. Unless, maybe, you've got a solution.

Anyone with two fingers can identify and write about a problem or state the obvious but very few of them can offer a solution so...

C'mon lads and ladies let's hear your solution to the age-old, World-wide, question: "What is the "magic" formula for successful transfers?"

Remind me again which side has won a trophy this year?
Remind me again who are the only side to reach the semi finals of both major domestic cups this year?

Then tell me which side have a better chance of winning trophies.

Do you think winning the league cup is enough to attract the best player?
 Even if we win both trophies it is the CL that the best player want, if we dont make it into the CL not only will we find it hard to attract the best we will find it hard to keep our best players

I think last summer policy was built around bringing the best out of Carroll and that has being a complete disaster.

You're stating the obvious t2s but I can't see how it warrants it's own thread. Unless, maybe, you've got a solution.

Anyone with two fingers can identify and write about a problem or state the obvious but very few of them can offer a solution so...

C'mon lads and ladies let's hear your solution to the age-old, World-wide, question: "What is the "magic" formula for successful transfers?"

Only buy players who's name ends in a vowel ..... simple.

Ronaldo, Pele ,Messi, Zidane, Kaka, Baggio, Romario, Rivaldo, Figo, Ronaldinho (names that end in o seem pretty good )

 

Only buy players who's name ends in a vowel ..... simple.

This!  So, we can look forward to the likes of Christoph Berra, Jaime O'Hara, Kevin Doyle, and Hugo Rodallega joining our ranks for next season!!!  League Title will be our in no time!!!   

So you wouldn't swap our position now for Spurs Arsenal or Chelsea's?

No I wouldn't.

We cared not a jot about the Carling Cup til some media mogul came up with the 'silverware' generalisation,

No we've cared about the League Cup for years which is why we won four times in a row when we were at our best. It's since "some media mogul" came up with the notion that finishing fourth is an achievement that the League Cup has been sh*t on. It's since "some media mogul" decided that winning trophies is no longer a measurement of success but instead how many times you play in the Champions League is that the League Cup lost it's prestige. Well it didn't to me and I'm delighted we won it.

if the Mancs were going on about the stupid league cup like we are we'd be laughing at them

No we wouldn't. You might, but I wouldn't laugh at United for winning a major trophy. I laugh at Everton releasing a DVD over one Derby game when they won 3-0 but I wouldn't laugh at a club for winning trophies. I'd instead wish it was us picking up the trophy.

FA Cup holds more value

Place in Europe, domestic cup, day out at Wembley - pretty much about the same.

but without doubt I'd instantly sacrifice both for 4th spot

Well that shows why we differ. I would much rather see us parade a trophy around Anfield and the streets of Liverpool than celebrate coming an embarrassingly low fourth place. If Liverpool fans are now celebrating fourth then it shows how far we have fallen.

C'mon lads and ladies let's hear your solution to the age-old, World-wide, question: "What is the "magic" formula for successful transfers?"

It's tough one but i'll have a pop.

1/ Decide how you want to play, have a vision.

2/ Buy players to fit the vision you have for the side. If your given a bit if money to spend (as Kenny was this past summer) then spend it on players who fit. On the face of it the players seemed to fit what was required. We needed a left-back, in came Enrique, we needed a young developmental cenntre-half t back up the senior players, in came Coates. We needed a wide-man to lift a glaring weakness and provide better delivery into wide areas, in came Downing. We needed to strengthen the centre-mifield area, in came Adam and young Henderson.

So from that respect, Kenny & Commoli seem to have recognised where the squad needed strengthening BUT the lads who have come in haven't been able to deliver. They were going ok to a point but (like everyone else) they have simply capitulated this past couple of months. Based on our results you have to say that the transfers have (overall) been a failure so far.

For me the elephant in the room is Andy Carroll. He doesn't tick the 'buy players to fit your vision' box in any way and his (and Kenny's failure) to integrate with how we play has compromised the club. Listen to the way Kenny talks, watch our best performances over the past 15 months. It's clear the vision he has for this LFC side is to play in a similar way to the previous great sides. He wants the team to play with tempo, to keep the ball, to pass it well, to be creative and inventive, to have good movement etc. At least that's how i see it. Unfortunately big Andy doesn't and never will fit. Despite the ocassional decent performance you can't throw a big target man into your side and expect us to play the slick, up-tempo passing game we have often seen (without the results) under Dalglish. The lad's confidence is shot to pieces and unfortunately the massive outlay and the pressure to stick it out with him in the side meant it was almost impossible (at least without losing a lot of face) to go out and sign a top drawer finisher.

That for me is our biggest problem alongside the fact that Downing is not (and likely won't be) the player Kenny hoped he would be for LFC. He's a decent Premiership player who was an upgrade on the position for us but has unfortunately continued to play as he has for much of his career ie. one great game, one poor game followed by three average games and vice versa. We don't have the quality in wide areas to make up for our lack of it inside when big Andy plays.

I can't knock the signings of Enrique and Bellamy who were both astute buys for my mind. I defended Adam for virtually the whole season but it seems he is not the answer and while I don't rate Henderson I won't make an  absolute judgement on the lad because I never in a million years believed that Skrtel and Lucas would reach the performance levels we have seen from them so who knows we might still have a player on our hands. Same goes for Coates, it's wait and see.

As for the background stuff it's an interesting question. I remember reading Shanks' autobiography years ago when i was a kid (he was before my time) and he said that he wasn't interested in seeing a player at home in a 5-0 win but wanted to see how a player handled a cold, wet night away in front of a tough crowd in order to see what a player is truly made of. I think the game has moved on someaht since then but I think he had a good point. 

This!  So, we can look forward to the likes of Christoph Berra, Jaime O'Hara, Kevin Doyle, and Hugo Rodallega joining our ranks for next season!!!  League Title will be our in no time!!!   

I missed one proviso off mate..... they also have to have won World/European player of the year also

Do you think winning the league cup is enough to attract the best player?
 Even if we win both trophies it is the CL that the best player want, if we dont make it into the CL not only will we find it hard to attract the best we will find it hard to keep our best players

Reina has stayed since we weren't in the European Cup.
Johnson, Agger, Skrtel, Carragher have stayed since we weren't in the European Cup.
Kuyt, Gerrard, Spearing, Lucas, Maxi have stayed since we weren't in the European Cup.
Suarez arrived when we weren't in the European Cup.

There's a starting XI of players who haven't left for Champions League football. Most of those 11 would be in most people's strongest starting XI for this season. So where exactly have we failed to keep our best players or struggled to attract players?

Oh because some whinging arse Spanish c**t wanted to leave for Chelsea? So F***ing what. Look what he's become, a F***ing bench warming has been most of the time. And what's he achieved? F**k all apart from seeing the Shankly Gates in blue. He went to win trophies, well he's won F**k all in the 12 months he's been at Chelsea. In those 12 months we have won a trophy.

If players wanna leave for Champions League football or if players don't wanna join because we're not in the Champions League then they are players I wouldn't want at Liverpool anyway. We're not a stepping stone for players. You don't play for the most successful team in England just to play in the Champions League, you play for Liverpool Football Club because it's the biggest honour any footballer can have.

But F**k it, the world is all doom and gloom because we're not in the Champions League. Might as well all hibernate until August then and start all over again. And if we're struggling by Christmas next year, let's slit our wrists again and wait for the following year because all that matters in today's game is Champions League football. Anything else is irrelevant.

I have to agree with DLS when this point keeps coming up.A lot of people have a thing about 4th spot i would rather come 6th 7th 8th 9th 10th and win a domestic cup or maybe 2,I know a lot of people say champions league football will attract all the stars out there....But reality is money controls the game.And city are the prime example of that 300-400 million and did  not get past the group stage and knocked out of the europa league.And a struggling now when the pressure is on.I think Kenny will get it right this Summer and bring in the right players no matter were they are from or what league.

C'mon lads and ladies let's hear your solution to the age-old, World-wide, question: "What is the "magic" formula for successful transfers?"

Well, for me it is quite simple:  "Buy players who fit the style of football you are aiming to play." 

This would have ruled Carrol and Adam out from the start as they do not fit with Kenny's pass and move philosophy.  Both are players who are suited to a more direct style of play and would fit in perfectly at a team like Stoke, Wolves, Blackburn, West Brom, etc. 

I think this is what has bit Kenny in the ass more than anything.  He bought these two players in particular thinking that we could play a pass and move style, but would also have the ability to play more direct if and when necessary.  However, the end product is that we look like a team without a real identity, and the old saying "jack of all trades - master of none" springs to mind when I think about our style of play this season. 

Yes I'd still have the same reasons as to why we were more successful in the transfer market in the past to what we are now. Mainly because it's true that we were more successful in the transfer market in the past to what we have been in the last 10-15 years. And my reasons, as stated above, are why we were more successful.

What

Reina has stayed since we weren't in the European Cup.
Johnson, Agger, Skrtel, Carragher have stayed since we weren't in the European Cup.
Kuyt, Gerrard, Spearing, Lucas, Maxi have stayed since we weren't in the European Cup.
Suarez arrived when we weren't in the European Cup.

There's a starting XI of players who haven't left for Champions League football. Most of those 11 would be in most people's strongest starting XI for this season. So where exactly have we failed to keep our best players or struggled to attract players?

Oh because some whinging arse Spanish c**t wanted to leave for Chelsea? So f**king what. Look what he's become, a f**king bench warming has been most of the time. And what's he achieved? F**k all apart from seeing the Shankly Gates in blue. He went to win trophies, well he's won f**k all in the 12 months he's been at Chelsea. In those 12 months we have won a trophy.

If players wanna leave for Champions League football or if players don't wanna join because we're not in the Champions League then they are players I wouldn't want at Liverpool anyway. We're not a stepping stone for players. You don't play for the most successful team in England just to play in the Champions League, you play for Liverpool Football Club because it's the biggest honour any footballer can have.

But f**k it, the world is all doom and gloom because we're not in the Champions League. Might as well all hibernate until August then and start all over again. And if we're struggling by Christmas next year, let's slit our wrists again and wait for the following year because all that matters in today's game is Champions League football. Anything else is irrelevant.

Whilst I wholeheartedly agree with you and i hate this "4th" place hoo ha, unfortunately football has changed a little and finishing in the top 4 is of paramount importance for the long term good of our great club.

Very good post Scott

Whilst I wholeheartedly agree with you and i hate this "4th" place hoo ha, unfortunately football has changed a little and finishing in the top 4 is of paramount importance for the long term good of our great club.

Well mate the best thing to happen to this club in a very long time happened when we weren't in the Champions League - Kenny Dalglish reappointed as manager of this club.

I'm not denying being in the Champions League is good for the club, both on and off the field. What I am is denying is that fourth is a measuring stick for this club. Winning trophies for me is a success, finishing fourth isn't. That's about as simple as I can put it.

For me Suarez situation is the same as Torres situation. We did not bring in the quality that would match the Torres/Suarez Caliber. It is/was a two man team with Gerrard and Suarez/Torres. Torres had that knack of scoring goals. Somewhat suarez is missing right now.

Our Wing problem has not been solved from the last ten/fifteen years now. This is a big issue.

In summer we need to bring in atleast two top quality players.

Well mate the best thing to happen to this club in a very long time happened when we weren't in the Champions League - Kenny Dalglish reappointed as manager of this club.

I'm not denying being in the Champions League is good for the club, both on and off the field. What I am is denying is that fourth is a measuring stick for this club. Winning trophies for me is a success, finishing fourth isn't. That's about as simple as I can put it.

Agree there wholeheartedly. LFC exists for winning trophies but we need to be in the champions league, to be in that elite bracket. Thats where LFC belong. God knows how I miss those Anfield nights.

We bought to bring the best out of Carroll when we should have being trying to buy players to bring the best out of Suarez. Had that debate with many posters on here last summer when i thought the policy was wrong.

Every manager makes mistakes in the market.

Kenny signed the player I consider the worst I've seen play for the club.  He also signed one of the best ever players we've ever had. For those wondering, the players are Jimmy Carter & John Barnes. 

Kenny deserves the chance to set things right, much like I though Benitez did though Hodgson didn't, because of what he has done and what he means to the club.

I love winning trophies and hate the 'top 4' hysteria.

But some people who tell us to see "the bigger picture" often ignore it when it suits their arguments.

What would most people prefer: steady (but trophy-less) progress in the league, getting into the UCL, making more money, attracting better players, and then finally win the league in, say, 5 years time, or 5 years of going downhill in the league, having some of our worst league campaign in decades, but winning the Carling Cup every year? I would definitely prefer the 1st option, even if it means winning "only" 1 trophy instead of 5. But those telling me to 'get some perspective' would prefer being the league cup heroes while sinking in mediocrity.

I'm obviously not saying we do have to pick between one option or the other. I just think that, as usual in nearly any conversation or debate, extremism is almost always very close to stupidity.

No I wouldn't.

No we've cared about the League Cup for years which is why we won four times in a row when we were at our best. It's since "some media mogul" came up with the notion that finishing fourth is an achievement that the League Cup has been sh*t on. It's since "some media mogul" decided that winning trophies is no longer a measurement of success but instead how many times you play in the Champions League is that the League Cup lost it's prestige. Well it didn't to me and I'm delighted we won it.

No we wouldn't. You might, but I wouldn't laugh at United for winning a major trophy. I laugh at Everton releasing a DVD over one Derby game when they won 3-0 but I wouldn't laugh at a club for winning trophies. I'd instead wish it was us picking up the trophy.

Place in Europe, domestic cup, day out at Wembley - pretty much about the same.

Well that shows why we differ. I would much rather see us parade a trophy around Anfield and the streets of Liverpool than celebrate coming an embarrassingly low fourth place. If Liverpool fans are now celebrating fourth then it shows how far we have fallen.

1. You didn't address the point, you wouldn't swap with Arsenal Spurs or Chelsea even though between them they're going for 3rd and 4th and getting into the FA Cup final? but instead be floundering in 8th and looking forward to the Europa League next season? Ludacris.

2. Fair enough, we won it 4 times in a row in the 80's, the same 80's when most of our players weren't born, there was no Sky, Premiership or Champions League stranglehold on the game. Romanticise the cup days out all you want, fact is their pay outs are minimal, they wreak havoc with fixtures and the squad - losing Lucas being the prime example.

3. Were you envious of Birmingham last year? ask around I'm sure you have plenty of mates supporting other top teams, ask them were they in anyway envious of us this season - or instead were they laughing at the fact we needed 3 penalty misses to close out a championship side? While we're at it define 'major trophy' there are only 4 maximum to compete for? so they can't all be major - unless the Charity Shield is a minor trophy to us now? maybe we can parade that round next season on an open top bus.

4. 'Place in Europe' isn't accurate, places in the Europa League and Champions League are vastly different! Champions League group stage payout is more to each team regardless of results than the winner of the EL gets. Plus there's the constant Thursday-Sunday fixtures leading to playing catch up and the 'games in hand' mentality

5. You want to see embarrassingly low? look where we are in the league now, correct me if I'm wrong but the ultimate aim here is to win a league title is it not? Everything else is a bonus. We will never attract the players to win it if we become a cup team, which essentially is what we're hoping to achieve this season, a reflection of the dire situation.


You mightn't like it but my opinions are unashamedly based around revenue - money makes the world go round, especially the world of professional football, the clubs needs to generate it to be successful, domestic cups and sh*te league positions don't do that. We need 4th place as a base to build a better team. Anyone thinking domestic cups are the launchpad required for league success is sadly mistaken

In an attempt to bring this back on topic: 

It's tough one but i'll have a pop.

1/ Decide how you want to play, have a vision.

2/ Buy players to fit the vision you have for the side. If your given a bit if money to spend (as Kenny was this past summer) then spend it on players who fit. On the face of it the players seemed to fit what was required. We needed a left-back, in came Enrique, we needed a young developmental cenntre-half t back up the senior players, in came Coates. We needed a wide-man to lift a glaring weakness and provide better delivery into wide areas, in came Downing. We needed to strengthen the centre-mifield area, in came Adam and young Henderson.

So from that respect, Kenny & Commoli seem to have recognised where the squad needed strengthening BUT the lads who have come in haven't been able to deliver.

... And, as you know, there's the rub Scott. There really is no "magic" formula; no recipe for success.

Forget Kenny/Comolli/Liverpool and insert any manager/scout/team you want - they all do or try to do the same thing. None of them go out to buy a player that they know will fail - to suggest otherwise would be daft. Some may be better than others but none of them get it right every time.

For every Torres there's a Keane or a Morientes; for every Aurelio there's a Degen or a Dossena; for every Drogba there's a Shevchenko or a Wright-Phillips and for every Rooney there's a Veron or a Forlan... I could go on but you get my drift.

Spending big money on big names doesn't always work and therefore ain't the answer. Buying either 'British' or 'Foreign' doesn't bring any guarantee of success and therefore ain't the answer either. 

I'm going to state the obvious now... There's no "magic" formula... and 'we' all know it.

Debating the success, or failure, of signings is something different and can be done in player threads. So whilst it may be very popular to have a dig at transfer 'policy' and play to the gallery; stating the obvious "we need to do better" brings nothing of substance to the table in all reality.

Hands up who knows we need to do better. Now hands up who actually knows how to do it.

1. You didn't address the point, you wouldn't swap with Arsenal Spurs or Chelsea even though between them they're going for 3rd and 4th and getting into the FA Cup final? but instead be floundering in 8th and looking forward to the Europa League next season? Ludacris.

Arsenal aren't fighting it out to be in the FA Cup final but never mind that, I still wouldn't swap where we are for them because I do not see coming fourth as a success. I don't see eighth as a success either surprisingly enough. I do, however, see winning a trophy as success.

2. Fair enough, we won it 4 times in a row in the 80's, the same 80's when most of our players weren't born, there was no Sky, Premiership or Champions League stranglehold on the game. Romanticise the cup days out all you want, fact is their pay outs are minimal, they wreak havoc with fixtures and the squad - losing Lucas being the prime example.

Well alright then we'll talk since there was a Champions League and since there was a Premiership. The League Cup is the trophy we have won most during that era - four times in 95, 01, 03 and 2012. So whether you want to dismiss it or not, we've always cared about the League Cup. As for playing havoc with fixtures and the squad, that will happen just as much in Europe as it will in domestic trophies. Injuries don't stop just because you're in Europe.

3. Were you envious of Birmingham last year? ask around I'm sure you have plenty of mates supporting other top teams, ask them were they in anyway envious of us this season - or instead were they laughing at the fact we needed 3 penalty misses to close out a championship side? While we're at it define 'major trophy' there are only 4 maximum to compete for? so they can't all be major - unless the Charity Shield is a minor trophy to us now? maybe we can parade that round next season on an open top bus.

Yes I was envious of seeing Birmingham lift a trophy, especially given that we went out to Northampton. And me mates don't support other teams, it's a straight choice between Liverpool or Everton. And I know a lot of Everton fans taking the piss out of me when Cardiff were winning, I know a lot of Everton fans who were taking the piss out of me when Cardiff equalised in the dying minutes of extra time, I know a lot of Everton fans who were taking the piss out of me when Gerrard and Adam missed their spot kicks. I also know a lot of Everton fans who I didn't hear a murmur off once Stevie walked those steps and lifted the League Cup for our record breaking eighth time.

As for a major trophy - League, FA Cup, League Cup, European Cup. They to me are the four major cups, not sure how that's hard to understand but obviously was for you.

4. 'Place in Europe' isn't accurate, places in the Europa League and Champions League are vastly different! Champions League group stage payout is more to each team regardless of results than the winner of the EL gets. Plus there's the constant Thursday-Sunday fixtures leading to playing catch up and the 'games in hand' mentality

And you get into the Champions League by winning the FA Cup now do you? You said the FA Cup had more value, I simply stated you get the same for winning the FA Cup as you do the Carling Cup. You've now brought up Champions League into this part of the debate for reasons I can't fathom. And the Thursday-Sunday is no different to Wednesday-Saturday. Even though we end up playing on a Sunday a fair bit even when we're not in the Champions League anyway due to our global appeal, companies want to show us live as much as possible.

5. You want to see embarrassingly low? look where we are in the league now, correct me if I'm wrong but the ultimate aim here is to win a league title is it not? Everything else is a bonus. We will never attract the players to win it if we become a cup team, which essentially is what we're hoping to achieve this season, a reflection of the dire situation.

Yes our League position is embarrissingly low. Then again so is second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh. And yes the ultimate aim is to win the League title. But to do that you need to have the winning mentality that winning trophies breeds. 20 years ago Man United won the League Cup, 19 years ago Man United won their first League Title in over a quarter of a century. FA Cup in 90, League Cup in 92, League title in 93. Arsenal won the League Cup in 87 (against us funnily enough) and won the League in 89 for the first time since their double winning side in 71 (where they also beat us in the FA Cup final). Chelsea won the League Cup in 2005 (against us) and went on to win the League that year - their first title in half a century.

Winning trophies breeds success, it gives you the knowledge that you can win and handle the pressure.

You mightn't like it but my opinions are unashamedly based around revenue - money makes the world go round, especially the world of professional football, the clubs needs to generate it to be successful, domestic cups and sh*te league positions don't do that. We need 4th place as a base to build a better team. Anyone thinking domestic cups are the launchpad required for league success is sadly mistaken

No I don't like it, you're right because to me you're supporting a business model and not a football club. If it's all down to money, which is all I ever hear, maybe you can explain why a side like Norwich are not rock bottom of the League. Maybe you can explain why Everton are currently above us. Maybe you can explain why Man City are not top of the table.

Money is all good and well but if you spend it poorly then it doesn't make a blind bit of difference, on the other hand if you spend the little money you have quite wisely then it can be a god send. That is regardless of whether or not you're in the top four.

So you wouldn't swap our position now for Spurs Arsenal or Chelsea's? We cared not a jot about the Carling Cup til some media mogul came up with the 'silverware' generalisation, if the Mancs were going on about the stupid league cup like we are we'd be laughing at them. FA Cup holds more value but without doubt I'd instantly sacrifice both for 4th spot

I'm sorry but that is absolute bollocks mate.

The only people who don't seem to care about the League Cup are modem day, want it all now, 4th place only matters, f**kwits who haven't a clue about our history in that very same competition.

I don't care who laughs or who doesn't but we want to win every trophy available to us and I've said this before but if we finish fourth every year and win f**k all there will be very few people going to Anfield to visit the museum to see a print out of our 'successful' league campaigns.

Arsenal aren't fighting it out to be in the FA Cup final but never mind that, I still wouldn't swap where we are for them because I do not see coming fourth as a success. I don't see eighth as a success either surprisingly enough. I do, however, see winning a trophy as success.

Well alright then we'll talk since there was a Champions League and since there was a Premiership. The League Cup is the trophy we have won most during that era - four times in 95, 01, 03 and 2012. So whether you want to dismiss it or not, we've always cared about the League Cup. As for playing havoc with fixtures and the squad, that will happen just as much in Europe as it will in domestic trophies. Injuries don't stop just because you're in Europe.

Yes I was envious of seeing Birmingham lift a trophy, especially given that we went out to Northampton. And me mates don't support other teams, it's a straight choice between Liverpool or Everton. And I know a lot of Everton fans taking the piss out of me when Cardiff were winning, I know a lot of Everton fans who were taking the piss out of me when Cardiff equalised in the dying minutes of extra time, I know a lot of Everton fans who were taking the piss out of me when Gerrard and Adam missed their spot kicks. I also know a lot of Everton fans who I didn't hear a murmur off once Stevie walked those steps and lifted the League Cup for our record breaking eighth time.

As for a major trophy - League, FA Cup, League Cup, European Cup. They to me are the four major cups, not sure how that's hard to understand but obviously was for you.

And you get into the Champions League by winning the FA Cup now do you? You said the FA Cup had more value, I simply stated you get the same for winning the FA Cup as you do the Carling Cup. You've now brought up Champions League into this part of the debate for reasons I can't fathom. And the Thursday-Sunday is no different to Wednesday-Saturday. Even though we end up playing on a Sunday a fair bit even when we're not in the Champions League anyway due to our global appeal, companies want to show us live as much as possible.

Yes our League position is embarrissingly low. Then again so is second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh. And yes the ultimate aim is to win the League title. But to do that you need to have the winning mentality that winning trophies breeds. 20 years ago Man United won the League Cup, 19 years ago Man United won their first League Title in over a quarter of a century. FA Cup in 90, League Cup in 92, League title in 93. Arsenal won the League Cup in 87 (against us funnily enough) and won the League in 89 for the first time since their double winning side in 71 (where they also beat us in the FA Cup final). Chelsea won the League Cup in 2005 (against us) and went on to win the League that year - their first title in half a century.

Winning trophies breeds success, it gives you the knowledge that you can win and handle the pressure.

No I don't like it, you're right because to me you're supporting a business model and not a football club. If it's all down to money, which is all I ever hear, maybe you can explain why a side like Norwich are not rock bottom of the League. Maybe you can explain why Everton are currently above us. Maybe you can explain why Man City are not top of the table.

Money is all good and well but if you spend it poorly then it doesn't make a blind bit of difference, on the other hand if you spend the little money you have quite wisely then it can be a god send. That is regardless of whether or not you're in the top four.

1. I said 'between them' referring to the 3 clubs. If you're going to be so facetious don't address the point at all

2. Playing Champions league doesn't alter domestic fixtures, Europa League does. Injuries I referred to are more likely the more games played, so we lose one of our best players playing a domestic cup game I doubt he'd have been involved in had had a champions league tie to look forward to. "And you get into the Champions League by winning the FA Cup now do you?" didn't say that

3. "Yes our League position is embarrissingly low. Then again so is second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh" be realistic, if we were in the top four there would be a totally different atmosphere in and about the club

4. I don't for one second believe, (or buy that you believe) that a domestic trophy is a launchpad for a league title attempt.

5. Man City are not top at this exact moment but they're challenging for the league - why? money. Sides like Norwich? Norwich have one of the best managers in the country, they highlight how far we've drifted they're 3 points off us. Everton are above us because we've been F***ing horrendous this year. it IS all money

I'm not replying anymore because as it's been pointed out this is well off topic and will descend into farce. I understand your view but to me it's much removed from the sad reality of life as a football fan. The game is different now than it was 30, 20 or even 10years ago. The golden goose is champions league. Gain from domestic success was always pride based. always. What does pride come before?

Our judgement has been an embarrassment.
Newcastle has showed us up in the transfer department.

Rafa's mud on the wall and some will stick policy  .....oooh Fernando Morientes is good.   Wimp.
How many players were turned over by him in transfers ...up in the 70s ?

Comolli is French.
There are some good players coming out of France at the moment.
A bit of the own backyard wouldn't have gone amiss and a few million saved.

Shall we start again ?

'If Liverpool finish sixth, it will equal or better the best ever Premier League finishing position for Stewart Downing, Charlie Adam, José Enrique, Andy Carroll and Jordan Henderson – a sizeable chunk of the Liverpool squad. While this does not necessarily prove anything, it does temper somewhat the notion that Liverpool are under-performing. There is an argument that hovering in seventh or eighth position is exactly where Liverpool should be, given the make-up of their squad,

Our judgement has been an embarrassment.
Newcastle has showed us up in the transfer department.

Rafa's mud on the wall and some will stick policy  .....oooh Fernando Morientes is good.   Wimp.
How many players were turned over by him in transfers ...up in the 70s ?

Comolli is French.
There are some good players coming out of France at the moment.
A bit of the own backyard wouldn't have gone amiss and a few million saved.

Shall we start again ?

This isn't having a go but Rafa assembled an amazing first team in his time here given his funds and adapting to a new league an all. By funds I mean wages too. If Rafa had the money he would have had a fantastic second string too. He like everybody else, bar about 6 teams in world football, had to take chances.

Now onto Kenny. He has to take chances too. Our defensive signings have been good because defenders cost less and we spent some good money. Maybe Clarke ran the ruler over them too. However our forward signings have been hit and miss. If rafa spent over 15 mill it was for a gem (maybe Aquilani could be debated). Now our policy has obviously turned to english based players who cost more but are less quality for price, in my opinion, than from spain or wherever. Supposedly Commollis network is sourcing these players with McParland et al. I can't remember when Commolli came in but why are we scouting English based players from the EPL .. we see them every week. He has got a great job if this is the case. We need more Maxi's, Kuyt's, Suarez's, Lucas's and maybe a decent winger. Downing is not a decent winger. Project 'knock it into the box' is not the way forward. We need to establish our identity as a pass and move, clever team. Probably the kind of football that Rudolfo Borrell is asking the reserves to play. I think we were seen as a team that struggled at places like Stoke so we tried to remedy this by fighting fire with fire. YOU CANNOT beat stoke at their own game and WHO WOULD WANT TO. We need to become a clever passing team. This is the way forward.

Reina has stayed since we weren't in the European Cup.
Johnson, Agger, Skrtel, Carragher have stayed since we weren't in the European Cup.
Kuyt, Gerrard, Spearing, Lucas, Maxi have stayed since we weren't in the European Cup.
Suarez arrived when we weren't in the European Cup.

There's a starting XI of players who haven't left for Champions League football. Most of those 11 would be in most people's strongest starting XI for this season. So where exactly have we failed to keep our best players or struggled to attract players?

Oh because some whinging arse Spanish c**t wanted to leave for Chelsea? So f**king what. Look what he's become, a f**king bench warming has been most of the time. And what's he achieved? F**k all apart from seeing the Shankly Gates in blue. He went to win trophies, well he's won f**k all in the 12 months he's been at Chelsea. In those 12 months we have won a trophy.

If players wanna leave for Champions League football or if players don't wanna join because we're not in the Champions League then they are players I wouldn't want at Liverpool anyway. We're not a stepping stone for players. You don't play for the most successful team in England just to play in the Champions League, you play for Liverpool Football Club because it's the biggest honour any footballer can have.

But f**k it, the world is all doom and gloom because we're not in the Champions League. Might as well all hibernate until August then and start all over again. And if we're struggling by Christmas next year, let's slit our wrists again and wait for the following year because all that matters in today's game is Champions League football. Anything else is irrelevant.

If you don't think we will struggle to keep our best players if we cant make it into the CL you are living in cloud cuckoo land, if we had not won the CL in 2005 I expect Gerrard would of left. lets be honest we only have two world class players, not 11, how many of the players you mentioned would get in the Man u, Man City, Arsenal, Chelsea or Spurs teams

 I want ambitious players who want to win everything, I agree that players should show some pride in the shirt they wear, but this, we don't want any players who want to play in the CL is childish, we want the best and the best should demand CL football every year

 

If you don't think we will struggle to keep our best players if we cant make it into the CL you are living in cloud cuckoo land, if we had not won the CL in 2005 I expect Gerrard would of left. lets be honest we only have two world class players, not 11, how many of the players you mentioned would get in the Man u, Man City, Arsenal, Chelsea or Spurs teams

 I want ambitious players who want to win everything, I agree that players should show some pride in the shirt they wear, but this, we don't want any players who want to play in the CL is childish, we want the best and the best should demand CL football every year

 

I guessing the two world class players you are talking about are Suarez and Gerrard. How about Enrique, Agger, Skrtel, Lucas. They would fit in any of those teams.

We bought to bring the best out of Carroll when we should have being trying to buy players to bring the best out of Suarez. Had that debate with many posters on here last summer when i thought the policy was wrong.

I don't know that that is entirely true mate. Certainly Downing seems to have been brought for that reason but we needed an upgrade on the left either way so it's quite possible he would have come in regardless of Carroll being in the side. As for the other lads i'm not so sure. Enrique, Bellamy and Coates had nothing to do with trying to play to Carroll's strengths. I suppose you could argue that Kenny looked at Adam's set-piece delivery last season and thought to marry that up to the big man's prowess in the air perhaps but that's about it. As for Henderson, I'm not sure that he was bought to tailor purely to Carroll's strengths either.

Only buy players who's name ends in a vowel ..... simple.

Ronaldo, Pele ,Messi, Zidane, Kaka, Baggio, Romario, Rivaldo, Figo, Ronaldinho (names that end in o seem pretty good )

 

A.K.A only buy latin players , HAHAHAHAHAHA

On topic, i think Liverpools transfer market policy has been below par. There are a number of reasond for that, but the main one is failure to judge a players potential.

I can see why we bought Downing, Henderson, Adam with the moneyball system all based around chances created. The difference with baseball and football being that there is much more interplay between players to create those chances than there is in generating positive statistics in baseball. So I think the method has been proven not so effective here and unfortunately it's a costly one, the real question is if we are going to abandon this method of scouting, I for one sincerely hope so.

"What is the "magic" formula for successful transfers?"

Sell Comolli 

Sell Comolli 

I second this. 80 million on Carrol, Henderson, Downing and Adam  FFS.

Sell Comolli

   Oh my sides.

We could do that and maybe 'buy' Carr from Newcastle. After all he found Cabaye, Tiote, Cisse, Ba and Ben Arfa. All players who were well enough known it would seem but none of which, barring Ben Arfa and Ba, we discussed on here and those two came with mixed reviews (especially Ben Arfa).

Can you imagine the outcry if we'd signed Ben Arfa or Cabaye when Mata 'was available'; Cisse instead of trying for Lavezzi and Tiote when 'we could have got Martinez'? I doubt any of Carr's signings (assuming Pardew has no say) would have been big enough names for many of us.

The fact remains; it's only with the benefit of hindsight that we know for sure if a player is a success or failure. Take Charlie Adam, for example, kelvo: he looked alright on paper didn't he? 

Can you imagine the outcry if we'd signed Ben Arfa or Cabaye when Mata 'was available'; Cisse instead of trying for Lavezzi and Tiote when 'we could have got Martinez'? I doubt any of Carr's signings (assuming Pardew has no say) would have been big enough names for many of us.

The fact remains; it's only with the benefit of hindsight that we know for sure if a player is a success or failure. Take Charlie Adam, for example, kelvo: he looked alright on paper didn't he? 

Thats the thing bang on Bub, unless world stars come through the door people wont be happy, then complain that we dont cast our scouting net wider and pick up bargains... I do hope that whatever is done this summer in the market which wont be Martinez or Hazard that people get behind them, let them settle and judge them after a fair amount of time.

There are plenty of good players out there which we need to buy and turn into better players, Alonso wasnt the polished diamond he is now when we picked him up from Sociedad, i really hope like everyone that Camolli is doing what he is paid for and picks up some cracking players from abroad that some of us havent heard of that turn out to be very good players..

Over to you Damien lad.

Sorry any players coming in would have being judged on performance. If we had signed tiote cabaye and Cisse even the most blind of person would have known they were good signings.

In relation to our signings Henderson Adam downing and Carroll have being shocking that is based on performance. Ya as people know i wasn't impressed with our work in the transfer market but if they performed like say Enrique id have being happy to say it.


Sadly Newcastle have being a lot more effective in the transfer market with less money

The likes of Ba, Cabaye and Tiote look like great signings now but agree with bad boy in that if we were linked with them last summer many would still not have wanted them as they weren't Aguero, Martinez or Mata.

Comolli, and Kenny have made as many successful signings as ones that haven't worked out yet and their judgement in the transfer market is about normal as far as I can see.

You think spending 78 million on Henderson Adam Carroll and downing is normal

also who cares if posters hadn't heard of them they would have seen after a couple of weeks they were good players.  Even a fool would see six million for them was excellent work by any club

I said on here Cisse would be a good signing for Newcastle.

You think spending 78 million on Henderson Adam Carroll and downing is normal

Our judgment in the transfer market is 'normal' in that we have made some great signings and some that may not work out. Many clubs have paid big money for players who look great signings and have had great seasons but don't work out.

On Carroll he was having a great season for Newcastle and I would imagine we weren't the only club looking at him and I'm not going to get into the fee as that has been done to death already.

also who cares if posters hadn't heard of them they would have seen after a couple of weeks they were good players.  Even a fool would see six million for them was excellent work by any club

As always you fail to read what is written and interpret it for yourself.

I said they 'look great signings now' and with the benefit of hindsight we can see Newcastle got a few bargains there but last summer they were not being talked about as potential signings for us, although racer did mention Tiote at one point, as most were looking for the likes of Mata, Martinez, Aguero.

You mentioned Cissé? Well done.

By the way I thought you were ignoring me

In my opinion I think this summer we will do things slightly differently.

I believe that last summer was a starting point, aimed mainly at removing as much deadwood as possible from the playing staff, which we achieved, to a degree. 

The players brought in were in line with the Moneyball/Sabermatics philosophy, that is, their stats from previous seasons showed they were in the top 10 for the posistions played, PL proven, not injury prone and some young enough to still develop.  Consideration was also taken into account that some Academy players development into the 1st team wouldn't suffer. 

In other words - they were "safe" options.

I think this summer will be about bringing some creative flair in to the squad, taking some risks and the introduction of more players from the Academy.

When members on here talk about the s**te players Kenny/Comolli bought, maybe in the long run it's proved the point that Moneyball/Sabermatics doesn't work well in Football.

Big wages & regular Champions League Football is how the agents & players decide where to go now. Maybe the signings Kenny brought in where just the best he could get. To compare the transfer market now to years gone by is ludicrous. We can compete for average or second choice players and that's what we got by the looks of things.

Until we get back into the CL it is going to be extremely hard to pick up world class players or potential world class talent ahead of Man U, City, Spurs, Arsenal plus the top teams in Europe.

We need CL football and then we can progress to trying to sign the players we actually want.

Big wages & regular Champions League Football is how the agents & players decide where to go now.

Over-simplification, but partly true. Take away the top 3 in each major European League, and i bet players will still prefer Liverpool to other options, even without CL football. Lets say Udinese, Napoli, Villareal, Sevilla, Malaga. Cant prove this of course, but i really think they will.

But given the choice between a top club with CL football, and Liverpool, I guess you are right. As for the players who choose wages over everything (Etoo et al), yes there are some, but not as many as you think ( I mean players who ONLY look at the wages and dont consider the clubs project. City had a project, for example)

Well mate the best thing to happen to this club in a very long time happened when we weren't in the Champions League - Kenny Dalglish reappointed as manager of this club.

I'm not denying being in the Champions League is good for the club, both on and off the field. What I am is denying is that fourth is a measuring stick for this club.

Winning trophies for me is a success, finishing fourth isn't.

That's about as simple as I can put it.

Is Right

Sell Comolli 

Do we need to sell him   Anyone know of any evidence of moneyball/sabermetrics working in football?  The evidence this season would suggest it's no better a system than the more 'traditional' way of scouting.  Some players step up, some don't.  Some take longer than others. 

And Martin Jol would probably agree!

Do we need to sell him   Anyone know of any evidence of moneyball/sabermetrics working in football?  The evidence this season would suggest it's no better a system than the more 'traditional' way of scouting.  Some players step up, some don't.  Some take longer than others. 

And Martin Jol would probably agree!

I think it's exactly the same as how things were done before, but it just got a fancy name and people suddenly think it's a new thing.

It is never a good thing when Liverpool aren't in the elite European competition. Its ridiculous to suggest other wise 

I think it's exactly the same as how things were done before, but it just got a fancy name and people suddenly think it's a new thing.

Have to disagree with this.  The owners definitely influenced the way Comolli and Dalglish's transfer dealings took place because of their success with sabermetrics in baseball.  However, baseball is a sport that is played one pitch at a time, and it can be broken down into how successful each player is in certain scenarios.  The difference is that baseball is all about repetition, while football is a flowing game.  To me, it is silly to reduce a football player down to numbers on a stat sheet.  A player like Andrea Pirlo, who can completely dictate the pace and tempo of a game, will never rate very highly on a stat sheet because he does not score many goals, create many direct assists, make many tackles, cover much ground, run very fast, etc.  Football has too many intangibles for the simplistic approach that sabermetrics uses for analyzing players.

Sell Comolli 

Or the alternate...

Whilst I wholeheartedly agree with you and i hate this "4th" place hoo ha, unfortunately football has changed a little and finishing in the top 4 is of paramount importance for the long term good of our great club.

HERE HERE

Have to disagree with this.  The owners definitely influenced the way Comolli and Dalglish's transfer dealings took place because of their success with sabermetrics in baseball.  However, baseball is a sport that is played one pitch at a time, and it can be broken down into how successful each player is in certain scenarios.  The difference is that baseball is all about repetition, while football is a flowing game.  To me, it is silly to reduce a football player down to numbers on a stat sheet.  A player like Andrea Pirlo, who can completely dictate the pace and tempo of a game, will never rate very highly on a stat sheet because he does not score many goals, create many direct assists, make many tackles, cover much ground, run very fast, etc.  Football has too many intangibles for the simplistic approach that sabermetrics uses for analyzing players.

I agree, moneyball as used in baseball was a new thing. The question is to what extend can it be implemented in football, I believe never fully. With younger players there is a complete lack of statistics also. And there will always be scouts who will just watch players, it's impossible to succesfully scout on just statistics right now. A combination of both is best I think, but that's quite normal in football right now. The only way to progress there is to get more extensive statistics, but even then you can never just rely on those. You're wrong about Pirlo though, he has a pass completion of 85-90% each game, that's similar to a player like Xavi. But I do agree with what you're trying to say, statistics are never full proof in football because there's so many different dynamics, players are so reliant on teammates too, but also on specific playing styles and formations etc.

There's a number of reasons why we were more successful in the transfer market in yesteryear.

Firstly, we signed players from lower league teams so the expectation wasn't as high as it is today. Ian Rush, when signed, wasn't expected to come in and win us the League single handedly whereas it appears that Andy Carroll is.

Secondly, we bought players based on what they were like as people as much as what they were like as players. I doubt we'd of bought somebody with Suarez' record of controversy back in our hay-day. Now that doesn't seem too important which is why we've had players with discipline problems like Ince, Diouf, Suarez, Bellamy (before he matured) among others.

Thirdly, we used to sign players and more often than not would have them sitting in our reserves for a year or two to learn the ways of the club before putting them into the pressure of first team football. Now, due to the ridiculous inflated transfer prices, players are thrown straight in and are expected to be world class players.

Fourthly, we were much more patient as fans and didn't jump down the throats of our players at the first sign of trouble.

Fifthly, we were much more successful as a team meaning new players could just slot into a winning side. It's much easier to play for a side that is winning than a side on decline.

OR we just bought a lot of overpriced british crap whereas before we bought prospective quality at reasonable  prices like newcastle have done this season.

Dress it up whatever way you want.. Newcastle are a better side than us this season and that is really hard to take. Theyve lost their 2 central defenders for the season without a blip. Agger/Lucas injured we're breaking records for losing streaks. Several of their players would break into our first 11 on form this season forgetting the big names we supposedly have since no CL football.

As for CL/PL. I'll repeat this till im blue in the face: If you are not in the top 4 you a) havent won the League (biggest prize) b) cant even compete for the second biggest prize.

That statement above is disregarding money,image,brand,marketing etc just from a success point of view there is nothing bigger than winning/competing for either of those 2 prizes. There is a massive drop in quality to the next prizes of even fa cup/uefa.

Top 4 is not a measuring stick.. its an absolute necessity for any team claiming to be a domestic or european power. We are 8th for a reason. I dont even think personally we have a squad that could get top 4 no matter who the manager is.

I'll be patient like most liverpool fans and give a full season and into next to rectify this situation but not all silverware is created equal. Im not happy beating other PL reserve teams/championship teams to win the league cup. Im much happier to be testing ourselves against domestic and european best as a true litmus test of how good we are.

OR we just bought a lot of overpriced british crap whereas before we bought prospective quality at reasonable  prices like newcastle have done this season.

Dress it up whatever way you want.. Newcastle are a better side than us this season and that is really hard to take. Theyve lost their 2 central defenders for the season without a blip. Agger/Lucas injured we're breaking records for losing streaks. Several of their players would break into our first 11 on form this season forgetting the big names we supposedly have since no CL football.

As for CL/PL. I'll repeat this till im blue in the face: If you are not in the top 4 you a) havent won the League (biggest prize) b) cant even compete for the second biggest prize.

That statement above is disregarding money,image,brand,marketing etc just from a success point of view there is nothing bigger than winning/competing for either of those 2 prizes. There is a massive drop in quality to the next prizes of even fa cup/uefa.

Top 4 is not a measuring stick.. its an absolute necessity for any team claiming to be a domestic or european power. We are 8th for a reason. I dont even think personally we have a squad that could get top 4 no matter who the manager is.

I'll be patient like most liverpool fans and give a full season and into next to rectify this situation but not all silverware is created equal. Im not happy beating other PL reserve teams/championship teams to win the league cup. Im much happier to be testing ourselves against domestic and european best as a true litmus test of how good we are.

Good points well made leeboy. You've definitely given me food for thought.

OR we just bought a lot of overpriced british crap whereas before we bought prospective quality at reasonable  prices like newcastle have done this season.

Or we've overspent on foreign just as much as British players. It's not exclusively British players who haven't been good enough for this club.

Dress it up whatever way you want.. Newcastle are a better side than us this season and that is really hard to take. Theyve lost their 2 central defenders for the season without a blip. Agger/Lucas injured we're breaking records for losing streaks. Several of their players would break into our first 11 on form this season forgetting the big names we supposedly have since no CL football.

Yes a few would get into our side, some of ours would get into their side. And as good as Newcastle have been this season, they will have nothing to show for it. We will. I'd rather be us right now.

As for CL/PL. I'll repeat this till im blue in the face: If you are not in the top 4 you a) havent won the League (biggest prize) b) cant even compete for the second biggest prize.

If you're not in the top four you have failed to do what you set out at the start of the season - win the League. You have also failed to do that if you come second, third or fourth. If we don't win the League, then we've failed as far as I'm concerned.

That statement above is disregarding money,image,brand,marketing etc just from a success point of view there is nothing bigger than winning/competing for either of those 2 prizes. There is a massive drop in quality to the next prizes of even fa cup/uefa.

No winning the FA Cup, League Cup, Europa League or any other cup competition is bigger than just competing in the Champions League.

Top 4 is not a measuring stick.. its an absolute necessity for any team claiming to be a domestic or european power. We are 8th for a reason. I dont even think personally we have a squad that could get top 4 no matter who the manager is.

No top four is not an absolute necessity to be a domestic or European power house. I don't class Man City as a European power despite them finishing in the top four for the last two years (last and this). You might, I don't.

And I do believe we have a squad capable of finishing in the top four, we've proven that by twatting every side in the League at some point this year. We've lacked consistency and that slice of luck that's required. We're not as far away as people think.

I'll be patient like most liverpool fans and give a full season and into next to rectify this situation but not all silverware is created equal. Im not happy beating other PL reserve teams/championship teams to win the league cup. Im much happier to be testing ourselves against domestic and european best as a true litmus test of how good we are.

Well to win the League Cup we had to beat Chelsea and City. To win the FA Cup we will have to have beaten United, Everton, Chelsea/Spurs. So we have had to face the domestic best. None of those teams were under-par either. It's not been handed to us, we've had to earn our trophy and will have to earn the FA Cup as well.

But if you're happier getting nothing from European games to actually winning trophies then fair enough.

Well said Billy lad, great post

Simple fact is we bought poorly, overpaying for average british players has being a massive mistake.

Even more simple.. we bought a selection of players to compliment Andy Carroll, now hes not even playing and they are basically useless as our alternative is pass/move which none of those players are competent enough to perform.

We need another total rebuild imo

What judgement ?   ...it seems.

If you're not in the top four you have failed to do what you set out at the start of the season - win the League. You have also failed to do that if you come second, third or fourth. If we don't win the League, then we've failed as far as I'm concerned.

The season hasnt even finished and we have already failed by a marker of 34 (yes thirty four ) points off the top as of today 7/4/12

We bought second rate players from second rate teams, no wonder they are crap.

Something is just wrong with our club ...

I understand some players we have bought over the years may not be top quality but that's when you compare them to the players Arsenal, Chelsea, Spurs, Man United or Man City has.

The players we have SHOULD be better than the players Wolves, Wigan, Blackburn, Bolton or Sunderland put out and yet we still fail to beat them. Even Cardiff City almost beat us so that means our players are just so terrible!!

In an attempt to bring this back on topic: 

... And, as you know, there's the rub Scott. There really is no "magic" formula; no recipe for success.

Forget Kenny/Comolli/Liverpool and insert any manager/scout/team you want - they all do or try to do the same thing. None of them go out to buy a player that they know will fail - to suggest otherwise would be daft. Some may be better than others but none of them get it right every time.

For every Torres there's a Keane or a Morientes; for every Aurelio there's a Degen or a Dossena; for every Drogba there's a Shevchenko or a Wright-Phillips and for every Rooney there's a Veron or a Forlan... I could go on but you get my drift.

Spending big money on big names doesn't always work and therefore ain't the answer. Buying either 'British' or 'Foreign' doesn't bring any guarantee of success and therefore ain't the answer either. 

I'm going to state the obvious now... There's no "magic" formula... and 'we' all know it.

Debating the success, or failure, of signings is something different and can be done in player threads. So whilst it may be very popular to have a dig at transfer 'policy' and play to the gallery; stating the obvious "we need to do better" brings nothing of substance to the table in all reality.

Hands up who knows we need to do better. Now hands up who actually knows how to do it.

What a strange post.

There can obviously be no "magic formula" for success in the transfer market because football isn't an exact science that allows us to predict with absolute certainty how players or teams are going to perform -- hence the accurately titled thread "Judgment in the Transfer Market". But that doesn't mean it isn't possible to outline the factors that are important to consider in making a sound judgment. It's not an exact science, but neither is it a complete lottery.

So, we can say to begin with that regardless of individual talent, any new signing should complement the team and correspond with the vision of the manager. Hence, the post you quoted referenced Andy Carroll and the problem of trying to play him in a side that aspires to play in a more intricate style of play than suits him.

Once that's been established, then it's a question of identifying the qualities required of a player to play in the role identified by the manager. A winger might need to be proficient at crossing the ball, he may need pace to get in behind defenders, he may need good close-control to make good use of the ball when drifting into tight areas, he may need to be a strong goal threat, have a high work-ethic and good defensive awareness etc.. These are all qualities that if we can't necessarily quantify, then we can certainly judge and if we do so with a critical eye, we ought to be able to improve our success rate in the transfer market.

I don't think it's about the judgement to be honest. When we signed these players from their former clubs they were impressive but, they haven't done that here. I think it's more about the signings not performing for us than them being sh*te.

What a strange post.

 

Strange? Really? What's strange about a post which brings a thread back on topic mate?

Whilst the thread title is "Judgment in the Transfer Market" the original poster sets the tone for debate when his post ends with the suggestion: "Until we regain our magic touch in the transfer market, I fear we'll continue to struggle."

I, in turn, answered that by pointing out that there is no "magic touch"... you STRANGELY enough agree with me...

There can obviously be no "magic formula" for success in the transfer market because football isn't an exact science that allows us to predict with absolute certainty how players or teams are going to perform -- hence the accurately titled thread "Judgment in the Transfer Market".

I'm guessing that whilst you read the thread title you didn't read the O.P. which actually set the tone. It's easy done mate; it happens all the time. 

The magic formula is having the right people in the right positions, as far as scouting and transfer policy goes.

Strange? Really? What's strange about a post which brings a thread back on topic mate?

Whilst the thread title is "Judgment in the Transfer Market" the original poster sets the tone for debate when his post ends with the suggestion: "Until we regain our magic touch in the transfer market, I fear we'll continue to struggle."

I, in turn, answered that by pointing out that there is no "magic touch"... you STRANGELY enough agree with me...

I'm guessing that whilst you read the thread title you didn't read the O.P. which actually set the tone. It's easy done mate; it happens all the time. 

Au contraire.

There is no mention in the OP of any "magic formula", any perfect methodology, any manual for success when it comes to transfers, nor any allusion to such a thing. All it does is contrast our recent transfer record with that of the 70s and 80s and points out that Newcastle have done cost-effective business recently when compared to ours. A fair enough to point make, and worth discussing the reasons why given the importance of signing the right players.

Then, at the end, it says that until we regain our "magic touch" we will continue to struggle, which is simply a turn of phrase that can be substituted with "talent for spotting players". No "formulas" in sight and no sensible interpretation of the OP that could ever lead you to think that it suggested such a thing. Rather, it's made abundantly clear in the thread title that it is a question of "Judgment", which of course it is. It is not some exact science that enables you to predict with certainty which players will or won't perform. It's a question of watching players play over a sustained period of time and assessing their abilities relative to other players and the vision of the manager who is seeking new players.

You, though, came in and dismissed the topic as pointless on the basis of the strange assumption that there was no "magic formula", no sure way of getting transfers right (as though this was ever up for debate), had a go at the OP for "playing to the gallery" (another strange comment), and, in short, started talking complete b0llocks.

Au contraire.

There is no mention in the OP of any "magic formula", any perfect methodology, any manual for success when it comes to transfers, nor any allusion to such a thing. All it does is contrast our recent transfer record with that of the 70s and 80s and points out that Newcastle have done cost-effective business recently when compared to ours. A fair enough to point make, and worth discussing the reasons why given the importance of signing the right players.

Then, at the end, it says that until we regain our "magic touch" we will continue to struggle, which is simply a turn of phrase that can be substituted with "talent for spotting players". No "formulas" in sight and no sensible interpretation of the OP that could ever lead you to think that it suggested such a thing. Rather, it's made abundantly clear in the thread title that it is a question of "Judgment", which of course it is. It is not some exact science that enables you to predict with certainty which players will or won't perform. It's a question of watching players play over a sustained period of time and assessing their abilities relative to other players and the vision of the manager who is seeking new players.

You, though, came in and dismissed the topic as pointless on the basis of the strange assumption that there was no "magic formula", no sure way of getting transfers right (as though this was ever up for debate), had a go at the OP for "playing to the gallery" (another strange comment), and, in short, started talking complete b0llocks.

That's me told off and rightly so . I stand corrected and contrite. I hope you will forgive me for dismissing your opening post thanks2shanks and anyone else I may have insulted - I got it way wrong. 

The fact is; we will indeed continue to struggle until we can regain that magic touch in the transfer market; whatever that may be.

* Whimpers out of thread with tail firmly between his legs. 

Comolli crap .......

   

AK: Liverpool failed to do any business in the January window, why was this?

    DC: We didn't fail to do business.
    It's a question of opportunities.
    There is no point in doing transfers for the sake of doing a transfer.

It has to be relevant for the team and bring us an improvement.

There were no opportunities to do so in January ............ so we decided not to do anything.

Bitters and Newcastle did. One scorer has scored six goals and the other nine goals.

So not having  striker who can score more than 8 f***ing goals (Suarez) didn't need improving !!!???
A pathetic   37  !   goal tally .

Who were our  "targets "

We were crying out for wingers with pace and a lethal 20 a season striker from last Autumn.

Spurs have four strikers in the PL top 20     striker list.

Adebayor  13
Van Der Vaart 9
Defoe 9
Bale 9

40 goals between the four.


We havent even got four strikers.!

Our top     strikers are Suarez on 8 and Free Bellamy on 6.

Interesting train of though is that we don't have a seasoned experienced negotiator in situ when it comes to transfers. The presumption is that it is Comolli who does a lot of the negotiating. However this was never his remit at Spurs (Leevy) - it perhaps was at St Etienne? but if so obviously on a much smaller scale. As a result in our transfer negotiations since Fenway arrived we have I think been seen as an easy touch and been taken advantage of
Can you imagine a Comolli figure (who I am not demonising - not his fault he has been given a particular job to do) or Ayre (a good guy seems to be but again inexperienced) running Man Utd? - not in this lifetime

For me the most important signing of the summer should be a top-level experienced administrator to run the club and let KD and Comolli concentrate on what they are experienced in
I am frankly amazed that 18 months down the line I am writing such a statement - Henry and co need to get it together

Interesting train of though is that we don't have a seasoned experienced negotiator in situ when it comes to transfers. The presumption is that it is Comolli who does a lot of the negotiating. However this was never his remit at Spurs (Leevy) - it perhaps was at St Etienne? but if so obviously on a much smaller scale. As a result in our transfer negotiations since Fenway arrived we have I think been seen as an easy touch and been taken advantage of
Can you imagine a Comolli figure (who I am not demonising - not his fault he has been given a particular job to do) or Ayre (a good guy seems to be but again inexperienced) running Man Utd? - not in this lifetime

For me the most important signing of the summer should be a top-level experienced administrator to run the club and let KD and Comolli concentrate on what they are experienced in
I am frankly amazed that 18 months down the line I am writing such a statement - Henry and co need to get it together

Can't disagree with this statement. Is Purslow still available ?

Do we need to sell him   Anyone know of any evidence of moneyball/sabermetrics working in football? 

Rafa