Don't People Just Love Scapegoats These Days

I'm not saying it never went on before, but it seems that in the age of the internet the favourite sport of many is finding a scapegoat, and then sticking to misconceptions no matter how ill-judged they are.

For a while it was Lucas, now it's Henderson and Adam to a lesser extent.

I mean let's forget that Henderson is the england U21 captain, that he has great physical attributes and has moved away from home and family to a new club, instead people just deride him for not being the finished article at just 21 years of age.

The same happened with Lucas, and no doubt will happen with other young players in future.

In an example of stunning hypocrisy, the same people who constantly say IKWT and all that, then have the gall to question his decision to play the young lad.
But here's the thing, you either trust KK or you don't. It's not conditional on a person understanding what KK see's in a player, all we need to know is that KK trusts and rates the player and that's why he plays him.
Yes we can and should discuss players, and what we think are their strengths and weaknesses, but the derision, piss taking and name calling is beyond the pale.

Going back to Lucas, he has been the object of some very strong abuse and I for one wouldn't have blamed him for walking away, but the thing is, every single manager he has played under has rated him.

I suspect it will be the same with Hendo.

I know that many blame the so called sky generation for this scapegoating, but is it really as simple as that? Or has the internet destroyed what used to be a deserved reputation as the most knowledgeable fans in football?

It's not just forums on the internet though, I hear the same sh*t going on at the ground and not just from daytrippers.

It's almost like a new terrace (and internet) sport, but it's totally counter-productive.

Patience is not only a virtue, it's the key to helping players settle in and build a rapport and relationship with the club, after all who the hell wants to get abused week in and week out whilst trying to do the best for new employers and supporters?
I certainly wouldn't want it, and at the end of the day it amounts to little more than bullying.

We've always had a lot of wit on the terraces and some of it can be quite biting and is aimed at our own players, but it always used to have a banter type of quality about it.
These days however, it just sounds like wankers shouting abuse.

In fact it annoys me so much at times that I actually understand cantonas decision to take the law into his own hands  (or feet as it were) and find myself wishing for a player or two to have a go back.

My position here is clear, scapegoating is a plague and a poison.
If you don't rate a player, then fine, no problems, but when it descends into abuse, and becomes personal then I think some need to take a long hard look at themselves.

Hendo has many faults in his game as well as mental faults which includes confidence.
But he has so much talent to his game which Kenny can tweak to make him a world class player.

Hendo has many faults in his game as well as mental faults which includes confidence.
But he has so much talent to his game which Kenny can tweak to make him a world class player.

I understand that, I'm talking about the new sport of scapegoating.

It seems these days people always have to have a scapegoat, and hurl poisonous abuse at them.

It's just plain wrong.

Nothing has changed whatsoever, scapegoats have always been found.  To think this is a new phenomenon is erroneous in the extreme.  Because of the ease and speed of communication, the shouts may come quicker and louder, but they've always been there.

It all comes down to people not just being able to enjoy supporting a football club and enjoying the game of football unless its all happy times and trophies and it comes without any lows.

It's sad, but the new Sky Sports generation of football fans are greedy, impatient and damn right F***ing fickle. Thanks to TV people can support whoever they want, not the team down the road, and it's led to people sat at home being fed sh!te from the sensationalist media without ever stopping and having a thought of their own. The papers and TV channels jump on off form players and managers in a bad spell and people who don't care enough to step back and look at the bigger picture just absorb whatever the Daily Mail and Sky say.

People are stupid.

Nothing has changed whatsoever, scapegoats have always been found.  To think this is a new phenomenon is erroneous in the extreme.  Because of the ease and speed of communication, the shouts may come quicker and louder, but they've always been there.

Exactly.

....and in specific about Hendo.
Worth the punt.
Could be good.
Shows glimpses.

Nothing has changed whatsoever, scapegoats have always been found.  To think this is a new phenomenon is erroneous in the extreme.  Because of the ease and speed of communication, the shouts may come quicker and louder, but they've always been there.

So you don't think it's changed from banter to abuse over the last 30 years?

I certainly think it's changed.

Excellent post Swab, couldn't agree more. There's a big difference between constructive criticism and demeaning abuse. Its embarresing really half the dribble that's posted. You would think people would have learned from the Lucas incident.

Hendo has many faults in his game as well as mental faults which includes confidence.
But he has so much talent to his game which Kenny can tweak to make him a world class player.

That is constructive critisicm, the kind of things we need to see more of.

So you don't think it's changed from banter to abuse over the last 30 years?

I certainly think it's changed.

There was plenty of abuse 30 years ago.

It's just the modern way unfortunately. Fans seem to have a need to stick the boot in on one or two indiduals when results don't go their way. It's always been the case but obviously there so many more forums to air you views now with internet forums, phone-ins, Twitter, social media etc and this further exagerates it.

Nothing has changed whatsoever, scapegoats have always been found.  To think this is a new phenomenon is erroneous in the extreme.  Because of the ease and speed of communication, the shouts may come quicker and louder, but they've always been there.

Spot on... We all just love a bit of nostalgia, don't we? In 1910, they were probably saying "this sport is dead... I remember when football was amateur, with true sportists, those were the days".

 Managers and owners are sometimes made scapegoats, footballers are judged on there performance   

Give me the good old days when you voiced an opinion to a mans face,the internet has a lot to answer for these days.Like most modern things though the internet can be manipulated so it gives the wrong impression,like making a person a scapegoat.We have seen first hand with the phone tapping scandal how manipulation can turn peoples lives upside down.Without being one sided the internet does have its good points.

Amongst others, one dictionary definition of scapegoat is : one that is the object of irrational hostility.

When I've written about scapegoats, in the past, this is a definition I've had in mind. Now whilst it may have always been the case, in my opinion, we've witnessed more "irrational hostility", this season, than before. 





 

I disagree, I don't think Jordan gets half the stick Adam or Carroll get. Even Downing comes in for as much sh*t when (unfortunately not if) we under perform.

Andy Carroll has been slaughtered from every angle since January 2011 and I can't see him staying in the summer, and what's more he'll go back to being great for whoever gets him. Our style or lack of therein and Kenny's complete mismanagement of dropping him every other week is ruining him

I think Hendo gets a lot of leeway from fans especially when he appears more concerned with making sure his hair is perfect than what is going on during the game at times.

Hendo would gain more respect from me if he shaved his hair off and grew and some balls, because at the moment for all you can see he has ability, he's more concerned with his appearance and he's a little pussy on the pitch.

Always being scapegoats. This isn't a new thing maybe its highlighted more. Reading whelans book at the moment and he talks about being booed by Liverpool fans when he started playing for the first team and receiving comments from the crowd like F**k off back to Ireland you useless Irish pr**k.

People should nt con themselves this was even around when we were success ful but the internet. I personally dont see anything wrong with highlighting whether a player is good enough or not good enough for the club on a forum

I cannot recall Ronnie Whelan getting booed by the crowd at Anfield,in fact I thought he was held in the highest esteem as a player.If you look at what he won with L.F.C. from 1982 he did not do too bad.

There his own words I'll get you the page no if you dont believe. I think people like to think every thing was perfect back in the old days it wasn't. Fans have always pin pointed weaknesses in teams since the beginning of football.

There his own words I'll get you the page no if you dont believe. I think people like to think every thing was perfect back in the old days it wasn't. Fans have always pin pointed weaknesses in teams since the beginning of football.

I do not disbelieve what you have written,I am just saying that I personally never heard him take that sort of abuse.He stayed with us for more than 10 years so I presume he must of been reasonably happy.What I will say is he has probably got more abuse for his comments as a pundit than he did as a player.

He basically made him stronger he said most players under performing experienced it.

I agree that this season there has been more scapegoating from lfc fans than I have ever experienced, it seems that this year everyone wud rather talk about their favourite scapegoat than favourite player and no one can agree who should be the focus of the derision between hendo, Adam, Carroll and downing. Ffs everyone where has the goodwill at this club gone everyone just seems to want to argue n finger point from top to bottom, how about people actually get on and support these lads its like we want em to be sh*t

Of course there is more scapegoats we are having our worst season ever in the premiership obviously fans are going to try and blame someone that is human nature. 

But is it not also the essence of being a supporter to support your players? We are gonna get no where if we want to tear 4 of our 1st team to bits after every game and in some games regardless of how well they performed. At the very least they will be our players until the end of the season should we not be willing them on rather than pretty much willing them to fail to fit in with our opinions?

Of course there is more scapegoats we are having our worst season ever in the premiership obviously fans are going to try and blame someone that is human nature.

For some... Dont take that as an attack but some dont look for someone to blame.

But is it not also the essence of being a supporter to support your players? We are gonna get no where if we want to tear 4 of our 1st team to bits after every game and in some games regardless of how well they performed. At the very least they will be our players until the end of the season should we not be willing them on rather than pretty much willing them to fail to fit in with our opinions?

The after effects of H&G mate, us fans are no longer happy unless we have an axe to grind or battle to fight.

And if we are having our worst EPL season ever, maybe some of them aren't scapegoats, they're really to be blamed...

I think Hendo gets a lot of leeway from fans especially when he appears more concerned with making sure his hair is perfect than what is going on during the game at times.

Hendo would gain more respect from me if he shaved his hair off and grew and some balls, because at the moment for all you can see he has ability, he's more concerned with his appearance and he's a little pussy on the pitch.

Spot on imagine him playing infront of Tommy Smith!

Nothing has changed except the political correct culture that exists today, back then you could call a spade a spade and no one would bat a eyelid, you could get away with shouting abuse from the terraces and not feel guilty about it, more often than not you got a few laughs,

peoples skins seems alot thinner these days, and are to easily offended, I'm a JOCK, oh, sorry Scottish, from Scotland, that wee fishing village just North of Watford, and I've had dogs abuse from Poms, Taffs, Paddies,Frogs,Krauts, Pakis, Indians and everyone else, do i care, am i offended, nah, not at all, apparently we're not allowed to have a sense of humour anymore, these day they are too many ' know it all's' know what's best for us, meddling in our everyday lives, politicians especially,

there will alway's be a scapegoat, there will alway's be someone to blame, thats just the way it goes, and some can handle it better than others,  blame me if you want, I dont give a F**k    

we are having our worst season ever in the premiership   

Really?

I've known worse seasons in terms of league performance, especially under Souness!

In what way, we have never scored less goals dropped more points at home and had less points, we have what is it 2 or 3 league wins this year.

In what way, we have never scored less goals dropped more points at home and had less points, we have what is it 2 or 3 league wins this year.

Oh I don't know let's start with beating the blueshite home and away, winning at the emirates and for all the sh*t thrown at the likes of Henderson, Adam, Downing and Carroll, have you forgotten Julian Dicks, Istvan Kozma, Paul Stewart, Nicky Tanner, Torben Piechnik.

And I go in seasons, not years. How many league wins this season?

Not sure off the top of my head, but i know we have 9 draws at home, our worst home record since i think 54.

I put the signing of Adam and spunking 35 million on Carroll up there with the money blown on stewart and dicks. The other 2 were comical

:

Not sure off the top of my head, but i know we have 9 draws at home, our worst home record since i think 54.

 

Funny how you can spit out negative stats like rainman but anything the other way your like my old altzheimer's suffering Nana... ( Bless her).

When i see Everton 4 points ahead of us and newcastle is it 14 or 17 points ahead of us, think i have every right to be negative. We spent more on Downing then both clubs spent last summer

When i see Everton 4 points ahead of us and newcastle is it 14 or 17 points ahead of us, think i have every right to be negative. We spent more on Downing then both clubs spent last summer

Comolli Thread.

Of course there is more scapegoats we are having our worst season ever in the premiership obviously fans are going to try and blame someone that is human nature. 

and this has come after our expectations were raised or shall we say we raised them.

The Woy / Hicks and Gillett time was torrid ..that wasnt LFC ...none of it .....so to get new owners, new players and Kenny back, our dreams or so we thought, had come true.

We didnt expect much.
Fourth would be good.
We HAD to improve on Wafa and Woys seventh (didn't we) so three places up with new blood was realistic.

We are angry. With justification.

We watch Newcastle getting into a CL place and a striker they bought in JANUARY putting the goals away.
Then we read the complete sh*te Comolli came out in his interview justifying how he makes himself look busy  and the bullshit with that "there was no one around".

We watch the Bitters and their new striker Jelavic who has scored six since they bought him at the turn of the year.

We remind ourselves of what Villa did to stay up and achieve their target by paying over the odds for  Bent.


It is quite normal for us to be the way we are.... looking for a scapegoat. We did with Moores and Parry.

Anyone who does not perform on or off the pitch, should not be associated with the club and when you hear that a camp comedian's Dad is pulling in new players for nothing (Carr) then I seriously hope to f...k that FSG keep the sweety jar closed this summer and make Comolli do some scouting (with his fantastic new network)  on a budget.

Then we will see how good he his or whether its all bullshit.

We haven't all brains the size of planets but FFS it was patently obvious coming up to the January window that we needed goalscorers (Suarez 8 / Bellers 6 ) urgently for the second half of the season.
We were saying it every day.
What was wrong at the club?

Pride? That the "Toon Terror" would save face for Kenny and Comolli ?   F..ing laugh that.


No.

Our disgraceful league position for who we are ..... LFC ..... is exactly where we are right now and where we deserve to be.

Nothing more than a mid table team.

Biggest Scapegoat was Rafa.

Biggest Scapegoat was Rafa.

Totally agree with you Shabs.

Biggest Scapegoat was Rafa.

Don't think he was a scapegoat, he made good and bad decisions and earned the chance to put things right, which he didn't get and which Kenny should and deserves to get as well.

Have to say eurored excellant post, to off this season, comoli telling us that there was no one available in january when everyone could f**king see we needed a striker has to be the biggest joke of all.

He must f**king squirm every time he sees 9 million Cisse score or 5 million Jelavic bang in a goal.

No value in f**king january, ya Damien good one.

Have to say eurored excellant post, the top off this season, comoli telling us that there was no one available in january when everyone could F***ing see we need a striker has to be the biggest joke of all.

He must F***ing squirm every time he sees 9 million Cisse score or 5 million Jelavic bang in a goal.

No value in F***ing january, ya Damien good one.

Don't forget to slag off Kenny then, who said he was happy with the squad and didn't think we needed to add any fresh faces.

Don't forget to slag off Kenny then, who said he was happy with the squad and didn't think we needed to add any fresh faces.

 Ya if Kenny really thought that as i said at the time it was a massive mistake.

Most people scoffed on here when Jelovic was linked with us in January...

Just saying like.

I was one, didnt think he would adapt and not as quickly but then im not making a couple of million of year to make these decisions

To be fair most people turned their noses up at Jelavic because he came from the SPL. Cisse seemed the more acceptable striker given the comparative strength of the Bundesliga.

I've tried to find my posts in the Jelavic transfer thread but I can't find it. The essence of it was, having seen plenty of him, he'd score goals in the PL but not be a twenty goal a year player. Despite his start being good I don't see him maintaining this strike rate at Everton. I've not seen enough of Cisse to pass similar judgement on him.

The point is you're both right, Comolli is getting paid lots to find players like these two - not players like Downing - and both transfered for cheap. So it does seem now, with perfect hindsight to have been foolish to pass them up or worrying we couldn't afford, or whatever you believe.

But let's look to the future now and try to run with the general feeling in January, we should be looking for a quality of player above these two for long term because both do seem fairly limited in the way they play.

we should be looking for a quality of player above these two for long term because both do seem fairly limited in the way they play.

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Limited how? By putting the ball in the net?

To be fair most people turned their noses up at Jelavic because he came from the SPL. Cisse seemed the more acceptable striker given the comparative strength of the Bundesliga.

I've tried to find my posts in the Jelavic transfer thread but I can't find it. The essence of it was, having seen plenty of him, he'd score goals in the PL but not be a twenty goal a year player. Despite his start being good I don't see him maintaining this strike rate at Everton. I've not seen enough of Cisse to pass similar judgement on him.

The point is you're both right, Comolli is getting paid lots to find players like these two - not players like Downing - and both transfered for cheap. So it does seem now, with perfect hindsight to have been foolish to pass them up or worrying we couldn't afford, or whatever you believe.

But let's look to the future now and try to run with the general feeling in January, we should be looking for a quality of player above these two for long term because both do seem fairly limited in the way they play.

To be honest mate you are right, I remember you were one not negative about Jelovic.. Just saying most were... That's not to dig but more to just maybe suggest that whoever we bring in this summer that people need to take a step back and not slag them off for not being *insert star name* and judge them on what they bring when they have a reasonable amount of time in the side.

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Limited how? By putting the ball in the net?

Very clever, I see what you did there.

Okay, I'll explain limited. Although it really shouldn't need explaining. Most players are limited, limited to looking good under certain circumstances. Jelavic likes to pull away from goal at the last moment to tuck away a pull back pass. Cisse looks to want the ball into behind the defence constantly.

These players are currently scoring goals and as a result we're annoyed we didn't sign them. But my point is we should be looking to add players who can offer variety in their play, real top quality players.

There is nothing wrong with being a 'limited' player because most players are. But I want another striker like Torres was for us. He could score headers, tap in's, score off through balls, take on players and beat them for pace then score, belt them in from outside the box. Jelavic and Cisse simply aren't this varied, or at least this good over so many different skills.

Jelavic, like I said before, is a good player and will score goals in this league. But not enough for us and he hasn't enough strings to his bow. I think, although I'm not sure yet, Cisse will be similar in the long term. They are good at what they do but I want a player who can score goals his favourite way but also offer good overall threat.

It simply makes you harder to predict and defend against if you never know what a striker is likely to do.

You get those players by spending a bit more money, that was the point I was trying to make.

Don't care what "limitations."

Suarez is our top scorer for ALL season on 8.
Bellamy next on 6.

Compare to just for months for Newcastle and the Bitters sigings.

Like Ive posted. The Spuds have four strikers in the PL top twenty goalscorers doe the season so far.  We have no one.

To be fair most people turned their noses up at Jelavic because he came from the SPL. Cisse seemed the more acceptable striker given the comparative strength of the Bundesliga.

From my limited recollection of events you're spot on with what you say KS. I remember some of us nearly vomiting with anxiety at the mere thought of us being linked with Jelavic, much less actually signing him. 

The thing is, regarding both players; their signings were very much driven by a limited budget. Moyes' & Pardew's 'choice' was restricted by money and therefore, it may be argued, they 'fell into' both players.

If, for example, Kenny had been handed £60m to buy a couple of strikers in January and he came back with £15m worth in Jelavic & Cisse: in my opinion, the knives would have, not only, been sharpened but planted firmly in his back. All before either would have kicked a ball by the way. Which brings me back to the topic at hand... scapegoats.

Both lads you mentioned have done the one thing any player can do to keep 'fans' of their back: hit the ground running and score goals. It's the only thing which guarantees automatic acceptance and satisfies those who need a short-term fix.

I've tried to find my posts in the Jelavic transfer thread but I can't find it...

... Despite his start being good I don't see him maintaining this strike rate at Everton. I've not seen enough of Cisse to pass similar judgement on him.

That's the thing KS one, the other, or both may be in the midst of glorious purple patches (tho' I must admit Cisse looks to be a safer bet). Ten games are enough to have won over fans but things can still go tits up and fickle fans will change tack.

Back (again) to 'scapegoats' - If our lads want to shake off the 'naysayers' then the fact is; they need to start performing and do what they're getting paid for. However, they should and can take heart from the fact that it sometimes takes time - as Lucas will, no doubt, testify. Over to you lads - start earning your crust.

If, for example, Kenny had been handed £60m to buy a couple of strikers in January and he came back with £15m worth in Jelavic & Cisse: in my opinion, the knives would have, not only, been sharpened but planted firmly in his back. All before either would have kicked a ball by the way.

I don't think new signings would be criticized for being cheap. In the specific case of Jelavic, I think being from the SPL did not help his case, but I guess most people never saw Cissé play before and therefore wouldn't have much to say. Some people actually liked Jelavic as well, I remember Mac Red was in favor of bringing him (I do recall that cause, despite being a, err, complicated person, he was a decent judge of players). And it's not as if the club would announce our transfer budget so we could judge if our signings were limited or not by lack of money.

I don't think new signings would be criticized for being cheap...

... but, more to the point, F.S.G would have been; in my opinion.

You are most likely right re: Jelavic. The moaning (in January) when we were merely linked with him was more to do with his quality than his cost. Although a few folk do have this weird notion that cost equates to quality. As you'll be well aware: this forum's littered with post which do just that.

Does the fact that Jelavic was deemed too poor quality wise, (if not cost wise), by many in January, make things better in the context of a thread in which he's now being held up as a shining example of a good January/Striker deal? I don't believe it does. In fact it smacks of hypocrisy; in my opinion.

Back on the topic of scapegoating, whilst there has always been abuse of players it is undoubtedly true that nowadays the personal nature of these "comments" is far more personal and vitriolic than it has ever been.

I think that there are few reasons for this.

Firstly, fans have far more forums to express their views than in the past - internet forums, radio phone-ins etc.  Hence, the disparaging comments made are viewed or heard by far more people, usually in total anonymity.

Secondly, football will always reflect society and unfortunately this type of behaviour is far more common.  As a former teacher, the level of abuse given to teachers on social networking sites has to be seen to be believed and unfortunately there are a bunch of sad individuals who seem to get some sort of kick out of abusing people online - just look at some of the high profile court cases now being brought due to twitter / facebook comments.   

Finally, I think that the level of players wages makes them an easier target.  Twenty years ago, I used to be a regular in a pub run by Jim Holton the old Coventry centre half - nowadays players sign one contract and they are set up for life.  I have heard many comments along the lines of "people could say what they wanted about me if I was on 100k a week" and sometimes it is difficult to be sympathetic towards players.

Overall, I think that the level of scapegoating seen is on the increase due to fans impatience and todays blame culture.  Today, accidents dont happen - someone is responsible and must be blamed (and more often than not, sued). Same with football - someone must be blamed for every defeat and bad performance and the idea of giving a manager a few seasons to build a side seems idyllic - doubt very much that in todays climate that SAF would have survived and look at what has happened since - I rest my case m'lud !

Who's responsible for scapegoating then? I'll make an example out of that c*nt.

Reading the last page... Sorry, but if we had signed Jelavic and he had scored 5 goals or Cisse, theres no telling if we'd be higher up the ladder. We could be in 4th if they clicked with the team or could be sitting where we are now. Rafa had to buy a lot of these players that were potentially good but didn't quite cut it and all we heard was if only we spent more money.

Hindsights great n all but I'm guessing I'd be reading something along the lines of "If we'd spent more money on a decent player like Mata or Lucas instead of this 6/9 million pound average player we'd be higher up the league!"

End of the day I still think there would be a lot of winging even if we had bought Cisse or Jelavic

Finally, I think that the level of players wages makes them an easier target.  Twenty years ago, I used to be a regular in a pub run by Jim Holton the old Coventry centre half - nowadays players sign one contract and they are set up for life.  I have heard many comments along the lines of "people could say what they wanted about me if I was on 100k a week" and sometimes it is difficult to be sympathetic towards players.

Yeah I agree about that. Short termism, scapegoating, all the stuff you guys complain so much about English football, it's a lot worse in Brazil. It's normal to see fans booing their own players here. I don't agree with that and I've never booed a Flamengo player even when most people in the stadium were doing so, but sometimes it's hard to argue against it. People will say "I've stayed hours in a train to come down here, paid for the ticket with the little hard earned money I have, and the players who are on huge contracts don't even put an effort with the shirt."

I think even in this case there's a bigger thing to support - the club, not the players -, but it's really hard to defend players on millionaire contracts who lack effort. This is why I stopped making excuses about Andy Carroll long ago. A grown up, highly paid professional should at least put in a lot more effort to have my faith. I'd never boo him though, because he wears a LFC shirt.