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      Don't People Just Love Scapegoats These Days

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      Paisleydalglish
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      Re: Don't People Just Love Scapegoats These Days
      Reply #46: Apr 10, 2012 05:37:39 am
      To be fair most people turned their noses up at Jelavic because he came from the SPL. Cisse seemed the more acceptable striker given the comparative strength of the Bundesliga.

      I've tried to find my posts in the Jelavic transfer thread but I can't find it. The essence of it was, having seen plenty of him, he'd score goals in the PL but not be a twenty goal a year player. Despite his start being good I don't see him maintaining this strike rate at Everton. I've not seen enough of Cisse to pass similar judgement on him.

      The point is you're both right, Comolli is getting paid lots to find players like these two - not players like Downing - and both transfered for cheap. So it does seem now, with perfect hindsight to have been foolish to pass them up or worrying we couldn't afford, or whatever you believe.

      But let's look to the future now and try to run with the general feeling in January, we should be looking for a quality of player above these two for long term because both do seem fairly limited in the way they play.

      To be honest mate you are right, I remember you were one not negative about Jelovic.. Just saying most were... That's not to dig but more to just maybe suggest that whoever we bring in this summer that people need to take a step back and not slag them off for not being *insert star name* and judge them on what they bring when they have a reasonable amount of time in the side.
      KS67
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      Re: Don't People Just Love Scapegoats These Days
      Reply #47: Apr 10, 2012 06:16:30 am
      \

      Limited how? By putting the ball in the net?

      Very clever, I see what you did there.

      Okay, I'll explain limited. Although it really shouldn't need explaining. Most players are limited, limited to looking good under certain circumstances. Jelavic likes to pull away from goal at the last moment to tuck away a pull back pass. Cisse looks to want the ball into behind the defence constantly.

      These players are currently scoring goals and as a result we're annoyed we didn't sign them. But my point is we should be looking to add players who can offer variety in their play, real top quality players.

      There is nothing wrong with being a 'limited' player because most players are. But I want another striker like Torres was for us. He could score headers, tap in's, score off through balls, take on players and beat them for pace then score, belt them in from outside the box. Jelavic and Cisse simply aren't this varied, or at least this good over so many different skills.

      Jelavic, like I said before, is a good player and will score goals in this league. But not enough for us and he hasn't enough strings to his bow. I think, although I'm not sure yet, Cisse will be similar in the long term. They are good at what they do but I want a player who can score goals his favourite way but also offer good overall threat.

      It simply makes you harder to predict and defend against if you never know what a striker is likely to do.

      You get those players by spending a bit more money, that was the point I was trying to make.
      MIRO
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      Re: Don't People Just Love Scapegoats These Days
      Reply #48: Apr 10, 2012 06:59:49 am
      Don't care what "limitations."

      Suarez is our top scorer for ALL season on 8.
      Bellamy next on 6.

      Compare to just for months for Newcastle and the Bitters sigings.

      Like Ive posted. The Spuds have four strikers in the PL top twenty goalscorers doe the season so far.  We have no one.
      bad boy bubby
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      • @KaiserQueef
      Re: Don't People Just Love Scapegoats These Days
      Reply #49: Apr 10, 2012 09:51:16 am
      To be fair most people turned their noses up at Jelavic because he came from the SPL. Cisse seemed the more acceptable striker given the comparative strength of the Bundesliga.
      From my limited recollection of events you're spot on with what you say KS. I remember some of us nearly vomiting with anxiety at the mere thought of us being linked with Jelavic, much less actually signing him.  :-\

      The thing is, regarding both players; their signings were very much driven by a limited budget. Moyes' & Pardew's 'choice' was restricted by money and therefore, it may be argued, they 'fell into' both players.

      If, for example, Kenny had been handed £60m to buy a couple of strikers in January and he came back with £15m worth in Jelavic & Cisse: in my opinion, the knives would have, not only, been sharpened but planted firmly in his back. All before either would have kicked a ball by the way. Which brings me back to the topic at hand... scapegoats.

      Both lads you mentioned have done the one thing any player can do to keep 'fans' of their back: hit the ground running and score goals. It's the only thing which guarantees automatic acceptance and satisfies those who need a short-term fix.

      I've tried to find my posts in the Jelavic transfer thread but I can't find it...

      ... Despite his start being good I don't see him maintaining this strike rate at Everton. I've not seen enough of Cisse to pass similar judgement on him.
      That's the thing KS one, the other, or both may be in the midst of glorious purple patches (tho' I must admit Cisse looks to be a safer bet). Ten games are enough to have won over fans but things can still go tits up and fickle fans will change tack.

      Back (again) to 'scapegoats' - If our lads want to shake off the 'naysayers' then the fact is; they need to start performing and do what they're getting paid for. However, they should and can take heart from the fact that it sometimes takes time - as Lucas will, no doubt, testify. Over to you lads - start earning your crust.
      Diego LFC
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      Re: Don't People Just Love Scapegoats These Days
      Reply #50: Apr 10, 2012 08:13:10 pm
      If, for example, Kenny had been handed £60m to buy a couple of strikers in January and he came back with £15m worth in Jelavic & Cisse: in my opinion, the knives would have, not only, been sharpened but planted firmly in his back. All before either would have kicked a ball by the way.

      I don't think new signings would be criticized for being cheap. In the specific case of Jelavic, I think being from the SPL did not help his case, but I guess most people never saw Cissé play before and therefore wouldn't have much to say. Some people actually liked Jelavic as well, I remember Mac Red was in favor of bringing him (I do recall that cause, despite being a, err, complicated person, he was a decent judge of players). And it's not as if the club would announce our transfer budget so we could judge if our signings were limited or not by lack of money.
      bad boy bubby
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      • @KaiserQueef
      Re: Don't People Just Love Scapegoats These Days
      Reply #51: Apr 11, 2012 12:25:21 am
      I don't think new signings would be criticized for being cheap...
      ... but, more to the point, F.S.G would have been; in my opinion.

      You are most likely right re: Jelavic. The moaning (in January) when we were merely linked with him was more to do with his quality than his cost. Although a few folk do have this weird notion that cost equates to quality. As you'll be well aware: this forum's littered with post which do just that.

      Does the fact that Jelavic was deemed too poor quality wise, (if not cost wise), by many in January, make things better in the context of a thread in which he's now being held up as a shining example of a good January/Striker deal? I don't believe it does. In fact it smacks of hypocrisy; in my opinion.

      angusmccoatup
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      Re: Don't People Just Love Scapegoats These Days
      Reply #52: Apr 11, 2012 12:59:45 am
      Back on the topic of scapegoating, whilst there has always been abuse of players it is undoubtedly true that nowadays the personal nature of these "comments" is far more personal and vitriolic than it has ever been.

      I think that there are few reasons for this.

      Firstly, fans have far more forums to express their views than in the past - internet forums, radio phone-ins etc.  Hence, the disparaging comments made are viewed or heard by far more people, usually in total anonymity.

      Secondly, football will always reflect society and unfortunately this type of behaviour is far more common.  As a former teacher, the level of abuse given to teachers on social networking sites has to be seen to be believed and unfortunately there are a bunch of sad individuals who seem to get some sort of kick out of abusing people online - just look at some of the high profile court cases now being brought due to twitter / facebook comments.   

      Finally, I think that the level of players wages makes them an easier target.  Twenty years ago, I used to be a regular in a pub run by Jim Holton the old Coventry centre half - nowadays players sign one contract and they are set up for life.  I have heard many comments along the lines of "people could say what they wanted about me if I was on 100k a week" and sometimes it is difficult to be sympathetic towards players.

      Overall, I think that the level of scapegoating seen is on the increase due to fans impatience and todays blame culture.  Today, accidents dont happen - someone is responsible and must be blamed (and more often than not, sued). Same with football - someone must be blamed for every defeat and bad performance and the idea of giving a manager a few seasons to build a side seems idyllic - doubt very much that in todays climate that SAF would have survived and look at what has happened since - I rest my case m'lud !
      vulcan_red
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      Re: Don't People Just Love Scapegoats These Days
      Reply #53: Apr 11, 2012 06:00:15 am
      Who's responsible for scapegoating then? I'll make an example out of that c*nt.
      DOBBS83
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      • @chrisdobbs83
      Re: Don't People Just Love Scapegoats These Days
      Reply #54: Apr 11, 2012 06:13:31 am
      Reading the last page... Sorry, but if we had signed Jelavic and he had scored 5 goals or Cisse, theres no telling if we'd be higher up the ladder. We could be in 4th if they clicked with the team or could be sitting where we are now. Rafa had to buy a lot of these players that were potentially good but didn't quite cut it and all we heard was if only we spent more money.

      Hindsights great n all but I'm guessing I'd be reading something along the lines of "If we'd spent more money on a decent player like Mata or Lucas instead of this 6/9 million pound average player we'd be higher up the league!"

      End of the day I still think there would be a lot of winging even if we had bought Cisse or Jelavic :)
      Diego LFC
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      Re: Don't People Just Love Scapegoats These Days
      Reply #55: Apr 11, 2012 02:56:02 pm
      Finally, I think that the level of players wages makes them an easier target.  Twenty years ago, I used to be a regular in a pub run by Jim Holton the old Coventry centre half - nowadays players sign one contract and they are set up for life.  I have heard many comments along the lines of "people could say what they wanted about me if I was on 100k a week" and sometimes it is difficult to be sympathetic towards players.

      Yeah I agree about that. Short termism, scapegoating, all the stuff you guys complain so much about English football, it's a lot worse in Brazil. It's normal to see fans booing their own players here. I don't agree with that and I've never booed a Flamengo player even when most people in the stadium were doing so, but sometimes it's hard to argue against it. People will say "I've stayed hours in a train to come down here, paid for the ticket with the little hard earned money I have, and the players who are on huge contracts don't even put an effort with the shirt."

      I think even in this case there's a bigger thing to support - the club, not the players -, but it's really hard to defend players on millionaire contracts who lack effort. This is why I stopped making excuses about Andy Carroll long ago. A grown up, highly paid professional should at least put in a lot more effort to have my faith. I'd never boo him though, because he wears a LFC shirt.

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