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      Is Mourinho a product of financial doping and favourable climate.

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      Reprobate
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      Re: Is Mourinho a product of financial doping and favourable climate.
      Reply #115: Apr 26, 2012 05:04:33 pm
      I just want to maybe question your undying loyalty to Mourinho

      Phew, before you posted that I was starting to think you were a 14 year old kid, too retarded to read other peoples posts and respond to the questions posed. Now I realise that you're simply a WUM.
      vulcan_red
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      Re: Is Mourinho a product of financial doping and favourable climate.
      Reply #116: Apr 27, 2012 12:40:05 am
      Actually it is, but with facts and data. There are Economic research that shows how wage bills correlate to success. You just don't know it, and go out making assumptions to "prove" your points. And even when proved wrong (the five "world class players" didn't cost much), you keep banging on the same arguments. Repeating a lie don't turn it into truth.

      I think Mourinho is overrated, particularly his success in the Italian league where he had hardly anyone to play against, but to say "the squad win the UCL" at Inter is just dumb, simplistic, childish, plain stupidity.

      If money wins everything and managers are irrelevant, I'd think Real Madrid wouldn't have 9 UCL trophies, but 50. It's not the case, especially in knockout competitions, where sample sizes are small and anything can happen in 1 or 2 games.

      Then you make his UCL win with Porto sound as if it's nothing special at all. Deportivo and Monaco were both having great competitions and deserved to be where they were. To judge them on their names (or current quality) is, again, just too silly to be taken seriously. One could mock our first 2 European Cups against Monchengladbach and Brugges with that same argument.

      The teams at the top win because of money. If you manage one of these teams you will in all probability win something in 1-2 years. As you would agree football is cyclic. Barcelona have won 3 in a row and winning four given they have won 15/19 trophies in 3 years, more likely means that they will dip rather than keep up the winning streak given the margins on which leagues are won. If Real Madrid have gone on one of their cyclic spending sprees, particularly given Barca's success then it seems more probable that their chance of winning will increase. In a nutshell, in a two horse race  Real Madrid given the past three years were in all probability going to win something this year. Chelsea's huge spend in England kicked Utd into a spending spree and motivated them to compete again which is why they wrestled control back. So if you ask why don't Madrid win every year it's because it's a combination of spend and cycles but it will only be the richest 1 or two teams in the leagues that win the league. THe CL obviously has all of these rich teams placed together. GIven that the knockout phase adds etc randomness some surprises are thrown up. With Inters win in 2010. Firstly Mourinho has been in charge of Chelsea and then Inter for six years and so was in the CL for those years with two of the top teams in terms of squads in Europe. So six years to get it right. No one can say he wasn't backed more than any coach in Europe at that time and it stands to reason that any coach given his resources would have a high probability of winning or getting to the final. Moreoever the accumulation of Lucio, Eto, Milito, Motta and Snieder was decisive in this win. Their wages for  the lentgh of contract they would have signed is important. However what is more important is that no other coach that year was backed in the CL wiht that kind of deal considering the strength of squad inter already had. Their win was hardly the stuff of legend.

      Does that explain my thoughts on the Mourinho effect
      vulcan_red
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      Re: Is Mourinho a product of financial doping and favourable climate.
      Reply #117: Apr 27, 2012 12:44:03 am
      Phew, before you posted that I was starting to think you were a 14 year old kid, too retarded to read other peoples posts and respond to the questions posed. Now I realise that you're simply a WUM.


      I'll simplify my answers if you like so you don't have to extend yourself. More importantly I wasn't thinking about you at all because you haven't said anything
      Joe88
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      Re: Is Mourinho a product of financial doping and favourable climate.
      Reply #118: Apr 27, 2012 01:51:31 am
      Vulcan Red you have an unhealthy obsession with the man. How come? With your logic no manager that wins anything at the highest level deserves any credit because they will have had financial backing. The top clubs will always have financial leverage - this was the case before Mourinho and will be after. Ferguson has managed the richest club in the world for about 15 years - does that discredit his achievements in that time?
      vulcan_red
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      Re: Is Mourinho a product of financial doping and favourable climate.
      Reply #119: Apr 27, 2012 02:21:47 am
      Vulcan Red you have an unhealthy obsession with the man. How come? With your logic no manager that wins anything at the highest level deserves any credit because they will have had financial backing. The top clubs will always have financial leverage - this was the case before Mourinho and will be after. Ferguson has managed the richest club in the world for about 15 years - does that discredit his achievements in that time?

      The manager gets credit. Are they the greatest of all time? Ronaldo kicks 100 goals in the league, Messi kicks 101 goals are they the greatest of all time. Has the hegemony amongst the top clubs in each league got anything to do with the kind of results we are seeing. Where two teams fight it out year in year out for the title in each country and having squads that far and away dwarf the rest of the opposition. If Mourinho is the greatest manager ever or a great manager because of his results then I am saying exactly this. His talent lies in going to the right clubs at the right time and exploiting incredible backing to win trophies that by the odds most experienced managers would win, some more some less. Ferguson's hegemony in EPL has been shown to be responsible for the continued success of UTD. The club as a whole is mobilised to win, with all their resources, which were greater than the rest. CHelsea now Man Citeh are proving this rule.

      Ronaldo and Messi kick this many goals because they play training matches against most teams at home and abroad given the quality of their squads and the oppositions. THe fierce competition between their two clubs in the last few years given the rise of Barca has made them even more ruthless. Their tactics exploit the qualities of these players  and they have an amazing support cast. Moreover the rest of the league has less than a handful of world class players between them.

      Can you see where I am heading with this. Form what I saw last night Heynckes has more claim to being a great manager than Mourinho if results are what counts, he beat a richer team in their home stadium with a team on half the wages. If mourinho was truly the greatest ever I think he would have made more of a match of it to be honest
      vulcan_red
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      Re: Is Mourinho a product of financial doping and favourable climate.
      Reply #120: Apr 27, 2012 02:36:28 am
      What makes Mourinho the greatest, he says he's the greatest. The press love it and so do the people out their who bask in reflective glory. If questioned as to why he's the greatest their answer is a simple, unqualified 'He wins things'.  I am merely pointing out the fact that coaches at the richest teams in Europe generally win things. Mourinho has gone form Chelsea to INter to Madrid, 3 pretty rich teams, and won things in periods when they were vey strong. What part of that makes him a great manager
      Joe88
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      Re: Is Mourinho a product of financial doping and favourable climate.
      Reply #121: Apr 27, 2012 03:21:32 am
      Who the F**k ever said he was the greatest? He's a top manager and to deny it is idiocy.
      vulcan_red
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      Re: Is Mourinho a product of financial doping and favourable climate.
      Reply #122: Apr 27, 2012 03:49:24 am
      Who the f**k ever said he was the greatest? He's a top manager and to deny it is idiocy.

      You guys keep coming back with the idiot, flawed logic, irrational, WUM. 14 year old .. etc. Let your arguments speak for themselves. No need to throw insult. Prove it! or don't bother
      Reprobate
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      Re: Is Mourinho a product of financial doping and favourable climate.
      Reply #123: Apr 27, 2012 11:28:49 am
      I'll simplify my answers if you like so you don't have to extend yourself. More importantly I wasn't thinking about you at all because you haven't said anything
      Up until I'd posted this, your answers were far TOO simplistic, giving your opinion and telling others they were wrong with little or no proof / reason for anything you were saying. I wasn't suggesting you were talking about me personally but yes, I did say something in response to you posting the Chelsea squad.
      I've read posts from, for example Diego with great interest because he had made some very valid points that counter your opinion-based arguments but you ignored him each time (until now). Anyone who admits to admiring Mourinho's managerial ability idolises him in your eyes and has, which is simply nonsense. In fact, the vast majority of posters on here will admit to finding him obnoxious but that doesn't mean we have to dismiss his blatant talents as a manager, as you have done.
      « Last Edit: Apr 27, 2012 11:40:27 am by Reprobate »
      vulcan_red
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      Re: Is Mourinho a product of financial doping and favourable climate.
      Reply #124: Apr 27, 2012 11:57:43 am
      Up until I'd posted this, your answers were far TOO simplistic, giving your opinion and telling others they were wrong with little or no proof / reason for anything you were saying. I wasn't suggesting you were talking about me personally but yes, I did say something in response to you posting the Chelsea squad.
      I've read posts from, for example Diego with great interest because he had made some very valid points that counter your opinion-based arguments but you ignored him each time (until now). Anyone who admits to admiring Mourinho's managerial ability idolises him in your eyes and have, which is simply nonsense. In fact, the vast majority of posters on here will admit to finding him obnoxious but that doesn't mean we have to dismiss his blatant talents as a manager, as you have done.

      I don't care at all about his personality. I laugh when people criticise Maradona's personality and use that to say he's not a great footballer. I honestly think Mourinho is limited as a coach and that the anount of backing he received has been the sole reason for the trophies he has won which is the only reason people regard him as an outstanding manager. I think the same about Ancelotti. he was at Milan when they had a very good team and then went to Chelsea, who Avram Grant got to second and the CL final, and was backed heavily. Literally I have no way of knowing how much better those two managers are than the rest of the pack.
      vulcan_red
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      Re: Is Mourinho a product of financial doping and favourable climate.
      Reply #125: Apr 27, 2012 12:08:43 pm
      Ok if you back Mourinho heavily and he is at a top club with a strong club he will get you results. If you are at a poor club with no resources in a relegation dogfight and you back Hodgson he will get you results. In my mind they are specialists then however it doesn't make them top managers. What is a top manager. Someone who wins everything at a team with less resources than the top tier clubs, does this consistently over a period of years amid a climate of change and plays beautiful football 80% of the time. Over and Out
      Joe88
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      Re: Is Mourinho a product of financial doping and favourable climate.
      Reply #126: Apr 27, 2012 01:01:59 pm
      Ok if you back Mourinho heavily and he is at a top club with a strong club he will get you results. If you are at a poor club with no resources in a relegation dogfight and you back Hodgson he will get you results. In my mind they are specialists then however it doesn't make them top managers. What is a top manager. Someone who wins everything at a team with less resources than the top tier clubs, does this consistently over a period of years amid a climate of change and plays beautiful football 80% of the time. Over and Out


      You have completely ignored so many counter points

      • Madrid hadn't went past the last 16 on the CL for 5 years pre Mourinho
      • He was not a big spender at Inter, nor did he sign many superstars
      • If money was everything he wound never have won back to back European trophies with Porto
      • If I was weighing up my next managerial move in 2010 it would certainly not have been to take on this Barca side. You keep talking about the fact that Barca won 3 title in a row. So what? Liverpool dominated English football  for 15 years, Utd likewise. Celtic and Rangers won 9 leagues in a row - the three year cycle theory is nonsense
      • La Liga - training matches? Did you watch the Europa League last night?
      and do many more

      Plus you completely disregard the pressure that managing clubs like Inter and Madrid carry - where there is expectation to win everything and your every move is scrutinised to the nth degree - hence the reason both Madrid and Inter were the most notorious clubs in Europe for rotating managers - funny how that practice changed upon Mourinho's arrival.

      Reprobate
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      Re: Is Mourinho a product of financial doping and favourable climate.
      Reply #127: Apr 27, 2012 01:13:21 pm
      What is a top manager. Someone who wins everything at a team with less resources than the top tier clubs, does this consistently over a period of years amid a climate of change and plays beautiful football 80% of the time. Over and Out

      So who, currently is a great manager in your eyes then, better than Mourinho?
      Most managers who could achieve everything you have posted above would soon move to bigger, richer clubs. Mourinho did that quickly, that's the only difference. He learned the ropes, did well in his first couple of roles so was given a chance at Porto, where he exceeded all expectations.
      Joe88
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      Re: Is Mourinho a product of financial doping and favourable climate.
      Reply #128: Apr 27, 2012 01:20:41 pm
      So who, currently is a great manager in your eyes then, better than Mourinho?
      Most managers who could achieve everything you have posted above would soon move to bigger, richer clubs. Mourinho did that quickly, that's the only difference. He learned the ropes, did well in his first couple of roles so was given a chance at Porto, where he exceeded all expectations.

      Exactly

      Vulcan thinks he's being in some way insightful by observing a link between financial backing and success. This is true in any walk of life - you need the tools to succeed. You wouldn't say to the CEO of Apple "The company made a profit of $10B last year year? That's not bad - but here go do the same running this corner shop and I'll be really impressed"
      Diego LFC
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      Re: Is Mourinho a product of financial doping and favourable climate.
      Reply #129: Apr 27, 2012 02:42:54 pm
      You guys keep coming back with the idiot, flawed logic, irrational, WUM. 14 year old .. etc. Let your arguments speak for themselves. No need to throw insult. Prove it! or don't bother

      I ask, why bother at all to prove anything to you? We post arguments and facts and you keep saying he is the most backed manager in world history, simply ignoring all that is said, even mocking a UCL title with Porto. There's no proving anything to you, in fact I wonder why YOU bother to open this thread, since you're not interest in any kind of debate, just throwing your overly simplistic "analysis" away.
      Diego LFC
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      Re: Is Mourinho a product of financial doping and favourable climate.
      Reply #130: Apr 27, 2012 02:45:21 pm
      Vulcan thinks he's being in some way insightful by observing a link between financial backing and success.

      Yeah that's funny! There are tons of academic research in this field of study, with actual data and statistical analysis, but the guy thinks he's a genius for stating the obvious. But even the people who do this kind of research don't underestimate the impact of a good manager. Vulcan go as far as to say "the squad won the UCL" at Inter... :roll:
      Diego LFC
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      Re: Is Mourinho a product of financial doping and favourable climate.
      Reply #131: Apr 27, 2012 02:57:23 pm
      Firstly Mourinho has been in charge of Chelsea and then Inter for six years and so was in the CL for those years with two of the top teams in terms of squads in Europe. So six years to get it right. No one can say he wasn't backed more than any coach in Europe at that time and it stands to reason that any coach given his resources would have a high probability of winning or getting to the final. Moreoever the accumulation of Lucio, Eto, Milito, Motta and Snieder was decisive in this win. Their wages for  the lentgh of contract they would have signed is important. However what is more important is that no other coach that year was backed in the CL wiht that kind of deal considering the strength of squad inter already had. Their win was hardly the stuff of legend.

      No, it didn't take 6 years to get it right, he got it right with Porto just a few years into his professional career. And it's a known fact that money - particularly wage bills - are really important to league success, but it's a totally different matter in the UCL. Real Madrid have probably been between the biggest spenders in the world for decades but they haven't won the UCL for 10 years. In fact, they couldn't get past the round of 16 for a few years in a row before Mourinho (even though managers like Pellegrini, for example, got Real's record points tally during his time there). So no, the squad doesn't win the UCL for themselves, as some huge spenders never brought the trophy home - the Real Madrid galacticos, for example, and Chelsea, who are still looking for it almost 10 years after Abramovic arrived.

      Nor was Inter squad the best in Europe. Among the best, for sure, but you overestimate them a lot. Thiago Motta is now playing for PSG. Diego Milito, the season after Mourinho left, scored only 8 goals (so much for a "proven world class", eh?). And I could go on.

      Again, you don't seem to give Mourinho any credit for the good signings he made himself. I've shown to you how none of them were actually a certainty of success - apart from Eto'o, perhaps. Motta and Milito were 27 and 30 years old playing for Genoa. Lucio and Sneijder, as good as we now know they were for Inter, were both in their respective clubs transfer lists.

      Inter probably had the biggest wage bill in Italy but it was not that bigger than the rest. I don't really care too much about his league wins in Italy though, since Inter only got back to winning ways (under Mancini) thanks to Calcio Caos which sent Juve to Serie B, and for years they were playing against hardly anyone.
      HUYTON RED
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      Re: Is Mourinho a product of financial doping and favourable climate.
      Reply #132: Apr 27, 2012 10:19:08 pm
      vulcan_red
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      Re: Is Mourinho a product of financial doping and favourable climate.
      Reply #133: Apr 27, 2012 11:20:49 pm
      I ask, why bother at all to prove anything to you? We post arguments and facts and you keep saying he is the most backed manager in world history, simply ignoring all that is said, even mocking a UCL title with Porto. There's no proving anything to you, in fact I wonder why YOU bother to open this thread, since you're not interest in any kind of debate, just throwing your overly simplistic "analysis" away.

      Name a more backed manager. Name a manger that brings in 5 top drawer signngs a season on top of a very strong squad. Name one .. probably only citeh at the moment and where are they.
      vulcan_red
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      Re: Is Mourinho a product of financial doping and favourable climate.
      Reply #134: Apr 27, 2012 11:21:42 pm
      Yeah that's funny! There are tons of academic research in this field of study, with actual data and statistical analysis, but the guy thinks he's a genius for stating the obvious. But even the people who do this kind of research don't underestimate the impact of a good manager. Vulcan go as far as to say "the squad won the UCL" at Inter... :roll:

      Put the academic research up.
      vulcan_red
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      Re: Is Mourinho a product of financial doping and favourable climate.
      Reply #135: Apr 27, 2012 11:23:40 pm
      No, it didn't take 6 years to get it right, he got it right with Porto just a few years into his professional career. And it's a known fact that money - particularly wage bills - are really important to league success, but it's a totally different matter in the UCL. Real Madrid have probably been between the biggest spenders in the world for decades but they haven't won the UCL for 10 years. In fact, they couldn't get past the round of 16 for a few years in a row before Mourinho (even though managers like Pellegrini, for example, got Real's record points tally during his time there). So no, the squad doesn't win the UCL for themselves, as some huge spenders never brought the trophy home - the Real Madrid galacticos, for example, and Chelsea, who are still looking for it almost 10 years after Abramovic arrived.

      Nor was Inter squad the best in Europe. Among the best, for sure, but you overestimate them a lot. Thiago Motta is now playing for PSG. Diego Milito, the season after Mourinho left, scored only 8 goals (so much for a "proven world class", eh?). And I could go on.

      Again, you don't seem to give Mourinho any credit for the good signings he made himself. I've shown to you how none of them were actually a certainty of success - apart from Eto'o, perhaps. Motta and Milito were 27 and 30 years old playing for Genoa. Lucio and Sneijder, as good as we now know they were for Inter, were both in their respective clubs transfer lists.

      Inter probably had the biggest wage bill in Italy but it was not that bigger than the rest. I don't really care too much about his league wins in Italy though, since Inter only got back to winning ways (under Mancini) thanks to Calcio Caos which sent Juve to Serie B, and for years they were playing against hardly anyone.

      If you say that Motta, Lucio, Eto, Sneider and Lucio in 1 go wasn't extraoridanry backing by a club then you are lying. Considering a club is looking to the future wen making such a deal. They are looking at only one thing .. winning the CL that very year.
      vulcan_red
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      Re: Is Mourinho a product of financial doping and favourable climate.
      Reply #136: Apr 27, 2012 11:24:43 pm
      I ask, why bother at all to prove anything to you? We post arguments and facts and you keep saying he is the most backed manager in world history, simply ignoring all that is said, even mocking a UCL title with Porto. There's no proving anything to you, in fact I wonder why YOU bother to open this thread, since you're not interest in any kind of debate, just throwing your overly simplistic "analysis" away.

      you haven't proved anything Diego unless our ideas of a proof are very different
      vulcan_red
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      Re: Is Mourinho a product of financial doping and favourable climate.
      Reply #137: Apr 27, 2012 11:26:22 pm
      No, it didn't take 6 years to get it right, he got it right with Porto just a few years into his professional career. And it's a known fact that money - particularly wage bills - are really important to league success, but it's a totally different matter in the UCL. Real Madrid have probably been between the biggest spenders in the world for decades but they haven't won the UCL for 10 years. In fact, they couldn't get past the round of 16 for a few years in a row before Mourinho (even though managers like Pellegrini, for example, got Real's record points tally during his time there). So no, the squad doesn't win the UCL for themselves, as some huge spenders never brought the trophy home - the Real Madrid galacticos, for example, and Chelsea, who are still looking for it almost 10 years after Abramovic arrived.

      Nor was Inter squad the best in Europe. Among the best, for sure, but you overestimate them a lot. Thiago Motta is now playing for PSG. Diego Milito, the season after Mourinho left, scored only 8 goals (so much for a "proven world class", eh?). And I could go on.

      Again, you don't seem to give Mourinho any credit for the good signings he made himself. I've shown to you how none of them were actually a certainty of success - apart from Eto'o, perhaps. Motta and Milito were 27 and 30 years old playing for Genoa. Lucio and Sneijder, as good as we now know they were for Inter, were both in their respective clubs transfer lists.

      Inter probably had the biggest wage bill in Italy but it was not that bigger than the rest. I don't really care too much about his league wins in Italy though, since Inter only got back to winning ways (under Mancini) thanks to Calcio Caos which sent Juve to Serie B, and for years they were playing against hardly anyone.

      I did take 6 years mate with incredible backing at top clubs with extraordinary squad compared to all but one or two teams in the CL. THe odds weren't that long over a six year period.

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