Joe Pirlo Allen (Liverpool -> Stoke)

Joseph Allen, the Welsh Xabi eh...

Reality is that he gives the ball away in key areas of the pitch too often

Does he really though?

Joe is a much better player than people give him credit for on here, but I still wonder how and where he's going to fit into a top team. he hasn't really developed his game since he arrived at Liverpool, he's still that tikki takki metronomic passer but there's little else to get overly excited about. If you look at comparable players who perform similar roles at other clubs, almost always they are better it than Joe AND they usually do other stuff as well. We even have one at our own club who is better at being Joe Allen than Joe Allen is, and were it not for the fact that Lucas is about as fast as me I can't see how the Welshman would get in the team in front of him.

To me in answer to Si's question about what would Joe need to do in order to "prove" himself it's quite simple. He much more often than he has shown so far needs to cause goals to be scored (either by scoring them himself, playing the pass through to someone else who scores it, or opening the defence up with a pass which causes a goal as a result). And, he needs to prevent goals being scored, by protecting the back four better/putting tackles in/closing off space etc etc. In short he needs to positively influence games in our favour, rather than just being a bloke with a shirt on.

Similar players? Well obviously Chelsea don't have one as they aren't overly interested in keeping the ball. Man City don't really have one either and I think it would be unfair on Joe to compare him to say Yaya Toure, although it's true to say the City man does everything Joe does plus a billion other things. At Arsenal you have the likes of Mikkel Arteta, Wilshire, Ramsay, Santi Corzola (who is a fine player IMHO), Coquelain etc who ALL do what Joe does, ALL do it better, and ALL do other stuff as well. The Mancs have Michael Carrick who does what Joe does defensively and in a distribution sense but better. people will say "ah but Carrick doesn't get forward" but most of the time and in a meaningful sense neither does Joe. They also have Herriera who is like Joe Allen with goals thrown in as an add on extra (I don't really rate Herriera but he's a better player than Joe at the moment IMHO).

So no, what Joe Allen currently offers us or any other top team isn't enough. Not saying he can't so it, but so far he definitely hasn't. 

Yep.

I think if a player doesn't do anything flashy or have immediate assists for goals it sometimes is taken that they aren't important or haven't done anything.

Joe keeps the game ticking over and is a great link between defense and attack.

Must be me but I just don't see the link. I've said it before but he gets brushed off the ball so easy he panics and passes early either sideways or backwards often losing possession and putting us under pressure. Compare this to Lucas who we all agree has no pace but in my opinion has better vision, he usually draws in the opposition player shields the ball and turns and plays an attacking pass. So not only does he link play he has taken a defender out of the game.

Does he really though?

Yes, I believe he does... Of course, his position will dictate that if he loses the ball it will be in our half thus in a dangerous position.

Football is a much a physical game as it is mental - I just don't see Allen intimidating opposing players.

To ask you a question, what has he done to deserve being in the squad?

I've no problem with Joe being a squad player and we do need a big squad, however, I'm surprised no one has put a bid in for him, he would have regular football with a team like Villa for example.

Maybe they have enough average midfielders already!

He has absolutely no outstanding qualities. Solid in most areas but nothing special at all.

he has a lot of good qualities but has no fire. he has no motivation. yes i know he plays for the reds that should be all the motivation but it ain't. i hate it when players look the business one game but nothing the next, that's when you know all the problems are mental. allen is seen as the teachers pet, whether it's true or not we don't know but he sure acts like it in his lack of fire, what is his motivation? where does he want to be? what does he want to achieve? does he have little goals for himself or does he know he'll be at the club as long as BR? OK that part is a little cynical but nothing is more annoying or confusing then a player who has quality but seems to lack the will.

Joe is a much better player than people give him credit for on here, but I still wonder how and where he's going to fit into a top team. he hasn't really developed his game since he arrived at Liverpool, he's still that tikki takki metronomic passer but there's little else to get overly excited about. If you look at comparable players who perform similar roles at other clubs, almost always they are better it than Joe AND they usually do other stuff as well. We even have one at our own club who is better at being Joe Allen than Joe Allen is, and were it not for the fact that Lucas is about as fast as me I can't see how the Welshman would get in the team in front of him.

To me in answer to Si's question about what would Joe need to do in order to "prove" himself it's quite simple. He much more often than he has shown so far needs to cause goals to be scored (either by scoring them himself, playing the pass through to someone else who scores it, or opening the defence up with a pass which causes a goal as a result). And, he needs to prevent goals being scored, by protecting the back four better/putting tackles in/closing off space etc etc. In short he needs to positively influence games in our favour, rather than just being a bloke with a shirt on.

Similar players? Well obviously Chelsea don't have one as they aren't overly interested in keeping the ball. Man City don't really have one either and I think it would be unfair on Joe to compare him to say Yaya Toure, although it's true to say the City man does everything Joe does plus a billion other things. At Arsenal you have the likes of Mikkel Arteta, Wilshire, Ramsay, Santi Corzola (who is a fine player IMHO), Coquelain etc who ALL do what Joe does, ALL do it better, and ALL do other stuff as well. The Mancs have Michael Carrick who does what Joe does defensively and in a distribution sense but better. people will say "ah but Carrick doesn't get forward" but most of the time and in a meaningful sense neither does Joe. They also have Herriera who is like Joe Allen with goals thrown in as an add on extra (I don't really rate Herriera but he's a better player than Joe at the moment IMHO).

So no, what Joe Allen currently offers us or any other top team isn't enough. Not saying he can't so it, but so far he definitely hasn't. 

So basically what you're saying Mick is Joe is sh*te in a round about way . This will be his 4th season with the club plus the time he was with Rodgers at Swansea . So it's not like he hasn't had much time to adapt to his way of thinking . Starting with all the tiki taki bullshit he was so used to playing with under Rodgers Swansea , and when Rodgers brought him along on the long journey with him he still can't get his head around the notion of what Rodgers wants of him . So what was the purpose of it all , a mediocre squad player that from time to time makes an interception or two , finds an odd deadly pass that creates a goal and he's still here with no club tearing down the walls to get him signed .

not good enough and wouldnt get into any of the top 4 teams.

he's had plenty of time to show what he's made of and only really looked good in a handfull of games needs to be sold.

Done his hammy, maybe a month out could be more.

Done his hammy, maybe a month out could be more.

This might seem very harsh and I certainly wouldn't wish ill or injury on him but this could prove a blessing in disguise. Removes him completely from the selection process and gives players I personally believe will prove to be much better footballers in the short and long term.

The likes of Can (not that Allen should get close to keeping Emre out of the XI right now) Chiverella or Tex might just get an extra chance and that in my opinion is only a good thing.

Disappointing news. I like him and think he's a decent backup. Hope he returns back fitter and stronger. Slightly worried about the DM position when/if Lucas gets injured, I feel we are gonna struggle in midfield.
On a positive note, it'll give other players an opportunity. As mentioned, Can, Chiverella or Tex could really cement their place in team/squad, perhaps even Ibe in that midfield 3 as a ball carrier!

This might seem very harsh and I certainly wouldn't wish ill or injury on him but this could prove a blessing in disguise. Removes him completely from the selection process and gives players I personally believe will prove to be much better footballers in the short and long term.

The likes of Can (not that Allen should get close to keeping Emre out of the XI right now) Chiverella or Tex might just get an extra chance and that in my opinion is only a good thing.

I agree Luke, life's tough and it's these little breaks that the youngsters need to get their foot in.  Just like Flanno did when we had injuries, they have to make the most of them when they get them as they can be few and far between.

This injury set back for Joe will almost certain spell the end of him at Liverpool if he didnt have a  hard time trying to fight for a place in the bulging list of midfielders he now will be almost certainly the forgoten man  now. Hamstring will usually take a good 6 weeks so buy that point our first block of tough games should be out the way and we should have a team formation set meaning distruptions are unlikely. shame he's injured but I think in Jan we should move him on anyway but that's just my opinion.

wish him a speedy recovery as its not nice to have any player out injured weather you rate them or not.

Jesus. Took me a while to find this thread.

Anyone think we miss Joe a wee bit?

I know I'll get the usual suspects saying he's sh*te, blah blah blah, but for me he is a very good player in linking attack with defense and moving the ball simply yet effectively.

Not saying he's the answer to everything that is wrong but I think he offers something we don't have right now.

Jesus. Took me a while to find this thread.

Anyone think we miss Joe a wee bit?

I know I'll get the usual suspects saying he's sh*te, blah blah blah, but for me he is a very good player in linking attack with defense and moving the ball simply yet effectively.

Not saying he's the answer to everything that is wrong but I think he offers something we don't have right now.

'kin 'ell Si!

Are you pissed?

I think Joe links attack to defence like metro-rail links the UK to the USA, he moves around his own little station for a while and then goes backwards, I don't think he uses the ball effectively at all. Sure his passing stats are usually quite decent in percentage terms but key passes or any creativity I think he's much worse than Can.

Sorry mate can't agree on this one, although Joe has always seemed to be one of those players that the longer he is out of the team the better he seems to be remembered.

Jesus. Took me a while to find this thread.

Anyone think we miss Joe a wee bit?

I know I'll get the usual suspects saying he's sh*te, blah blah blah, but for me he is a very good player in linking attack with defense and moving the ball simply yet effectively.

Not saying he's the answer to everything that is wrong but I think he offers something we don't have right now.

I recently recalled one of his best ever matches for us when we beat Spurs 5-0 in December 2013. Was sublime that day alongside Hendo and Lucas. I don't buy the stick he gets. Still think he's a handy player for us to utilise.

I think with Rodgers getting the toxic sh*t flung at him at the moment it's popular for some to apply a bit of 'guilt by association' treatment to Joe.

'kin 'ell Si!

Are you pissed?

I think Joe links attack to defence like metro-rail links the UK to the USA, he moves around his own little station for a while and then goes backwards, I don't think he uses the ball effectively at all. Sure his passing stats are usually quite decent in percentage terms but key passes or any creativity I think he's much worse than Can.

Sorry mate can't agree on this one, although Joe has always seemed to be one of those players that the longer he is out of the team the better he seems to be remembered.

I am having a drink mate but a fair bit away from being pissed.

I know we will never agree on Joe and like I said I am in no way saying he would be a saviour to the sh*te we are currently being served up but he is a much better player than many, yourself included, give him credit for in my opinion and I think he would make a change to our midfield if he was fit.

I am having a drink mate but a fair bit away from being pissed.

I know we will never agree on Joe and like I said I am in no way saying he would be a saviour to the sh*te we are currently being served up but he is a much better player than many, yourslef included, give him credit for in my opinion and I think he would make a change to our midfield if he was fit.

Fair enough mate I'm more than willing to try anything right now as long as it's a change from the 4-3-3 sh*te we're having to deal with right now.

In terms of Joe, as any player I don't rate for us, I hope you're right and I'm proved wrong.

Fair enough mate I'm more than willing to try anything right now as long as it's a change from the 4-3-3 sh*te we're having to deal with right now.

Agree.

If we did go the Joe Allen route though one of Hendo and Milner would have to sit out for me and there is a problem in itself right there as I think Brendan backs himself into a corner sometimes with players and picks players for reasons other than form and systems at times.

Agree.

If we did go the Joe Allen route though one of Hendo and Milner would have to sit out for me and there is a problem in itself right there as I think Brendan backs himslef into a corner sometimes with players and picks players for reasons other than form and systems at times.

Agreed mate, I think we discussed it as we signed Milner and made Hendo captain that he was backing himself into the corner of having to play both of them in the centre. They are far too similar and it's another problem we've created for ourselves.

If I'm 100% honest I believe all of Allen, Henderson, Lucas and Milner are outstanding back up players or players who do the dirty work but when your midfield consists solely of those players it proves to be counter productive.

It would be so interesting to see how an Alonso or Modric would function in our midfield as I think they'd also struggle right now as we have no forward momentum in our midfield so they'd be forced to pass either sideways or backwards.

Agreed mate, I think we discussed it as we signed Milner and made Hendo captain that he was backing himself into the corner of having to play both of them in the centre. They are far too similar and it's another problem we've created for ourselves.

If I'm 100% honest I believe all of Allen, Henderson, Lucas and Milner are outstanding back up players or players who do the dirty work but when your midfield consists solely of those players it proves to be counter productive.

It would be so interesting to see how an Alonso or Modric would function in our midfield as I think they'd also struggle right now as we have no forward momentum in our midfield so they'd be forced to pass either sideways or backwards.

I like Milner. In fact I think he was a very good player to get into the club but maybe not as a guranteed starter. I mentioned it at the time when it was ebing said he was guranteed to play CM every game that the manager could easily sell that to him but when the season is up and running convince him to play a different role but I'm not sure our manager is strong enough to do that.

Back to Joe and the way I see it is that in a diamond Can is the deepest player one one who has that ability to pick a pass. Hendo is the man who plays forther forward and makes those runs to support the attack. Joe is the link player who plays between Can and Hendo and 'links' the defensive part of the side with thet attack. Phil as the 10, even though I think he's better deeper but needs must, who plays behind Firmino who is right with Benteke up front.

Can

Henderson       Allen

Coutinho

Firmino

Benteke

I like Milner. In fact I think he was a very good player to get into the club but maybe not as a guranteed starter. I mentioned it at the time when it was ebing said he was guranteed to play CM every game that the manager could easily sell that to him but when the season is up and running convince him to play a different role but I'm not sure our manager is strong enough to do that.

Back to Joe and the way I see it is that in a diamond Can is the deepest player one one who has that ability to pick a pass. Hendo is the man who plays forther forward and makes those runs to support the attack. Joe is the link player who plays between Can and Hendo and 'links' the defensive part of the side with thet attack. Phil as the 10, even though I think he's better deeper but needs must, who plays behind Firmino who is right with Benteke up front.

Can

Henderson       Allen

Coutinho

Firmino

Benteke

To be fair mate I was sold on your formation in the pre-match against United, I think that had plenty of positives going for it and an awful lot of fluidity. Plus crucially it didn't have 2 of our most attacking and creative players playing the wing-back roles