Joe Allen & Lucas Leiva, will it work?

4-4-2 with 4 CM's ?

I presume he meant the 4 in a diamond mate.

                         Lucas

                Shelvey      Allen

                      Gerrard
           

Maybe not!

Was wondering myself how this would pan out, and it is very early to be making definitive conclusions.

However, I do agree with the worries about a potential Masch/Lucas repeat, and a lack of goals.

Obviously, our attacking players should be scoring the brunt of the goals, but it's probable most of our defenders will score more goals than Lucas, and we could certainly do with everyone chipping in with a few.

We did the whole "gelling/bonding" debate to death last season, but with a new system and quite a few changes with players arriving and leaving, we will certainly not see the best of the team for a good while yet.

I'm sure Brendan has full confidence in his plans and will stick to his guns with regards to team selection and tactics, though I reserve the right to worry slightly about where the cutting edge and penetration in the final third will come from.

Gerrard wasn't even close to his best on Saturday, nor was Lucas. Lucas hasn't looked the same but that's to be expected with that injury coupled with rust. Give it time.

I think our midfield was poor in general, with the exception of Allen who, for me, was our best player. Think we have to remember that Lucas is just coming back from a potential career-ending injury. He was poor but poor by his usual high standards. Judge him in a few weeks.

Gerrard, for me, was bloody awful. Stevie had a good Euro's but for me he will never be able to produce half of which he has in the past. I love him and would keep him in the team. However, I read a headline the other day (admittingly I didn't read the article and may have mis-understood it) but it read something like 'Gerrard: I won't change'. For me, he needs to change and adapt to his age and his own ability. I am sure he has been told this already.

Overall, Lucas and Allen on paper sounds great. However, will take a lot of hard work on the training ground before there is a true understanding in place.

No reason why it wont. Obviously will take time for them to gel together. Nobody can say yes or no after 1 game together and probably 6 training sessions maybe even less.

By the way very harsh assesment on Lucas performance Saturday. The fact hes even back in the first 11 speaks volumes about him. To have a go at his performance I feel his out of order. It will take him time to get back to the level he was at pre injury

I'm sure it will work , only game experience will tell..
You've gotta look at the opposing midfielders they will be facing and ask yourself whether they have the mind set to displace them in the game.That Mulumbu and Yakov I think his name is did press them both in the first half and Allen sat very deep which was okay until early in the second half when they pushed them harder and Lucas , for me , ran tired and consequently got a yellow for pulling yer man back as he ran through...next up will be De Jong and Toure...very quick paced players who can damage you big time along with that Silva , so both Allen and Lucas need to gel and get the telepathy going as well as the muscle'ing in on the tackles , hassle em off the ball...as does Stevie
I'm positive the combo can gel together and with a new edition in the mix sooner rather than later Rodgers can settle down and work with them all.

I don't think Allen & Lucas will score many, but then again if they don't, it doesn't mean they're a repeat of the Masch & Lucas partnership - let's not forget that, despite how great Masch and Alonso were together, both of them rarely offered many goals. Allen is a player who will contribute offensively, I'm pretty sure about that, I just don't think he'll be a consistent goalscorer either.

Anyway, last season Allen scored 4... that's more than any of our midfielders (Gerrard excluded) scored last season, so it would still be an improvement on that aspect.

I don't think Allen & Lucas will score many, but then again if they don't, it doesn't mean they're a repeat of the Masch & Lucas partnership - let's not forget that, despite how great Masch and Alonso were together, both of them rarely offered many goals. Allen is a player who will contribute offensively, I'm pretty sure about that, I just don't think he'll be a consistent goalscorer either.

Anyway, last season Allen scored 4... that's more than any of our midfielders (Gerrard excluded) scored last season, so it would still be an improvement on that aspect.

I'm not worried about them. I'm seriously worried about Gerrard, though. Hope it's just a bad feeling of mine.

Doubt they had any time together before the match, maybe 2 or 3 sessions? IIRC Joe went to play for Wales midweek.

Lucas is just back from a hefty lay off. So none of us can be to critical of the lad can we. In the pair of them granted Lucas has experience they don't as a unit at the moment. I am hoping that we all gel again and fast cos loses now early on will cost us. We should be firing now as we have game's ahead. Frustration is not a word I want to hear to many times this season

Of course it will work, no reason why it won't, Lucas is world class imo, he will take a month or so for him to get back to his best, meanwhile Joe will bed in nicely and will just get better and better, his stats V Baggies are very good and that was his debut, once he has had a few training sessions under Brendan and with the other lads i think he alongside Lucas will be first on the team sheet, week in week out,barring injuries of course.

               IBWT     YNWA

However, I do agree with the worries about a potential Masch/Lucas repeat, and a lack of goals.

That won't be anything new though mate.

We haven't had a goalscorer from the middle of the park since Gerrard was an out an out central midfielder.

Alonso, Lucas, Mascherano, Hamann, Sissoko, Meireles, Aquilani Spearing, Adam, Shelvey, Henderson (I've purposely left that Danish fella out who Hodgson bought, but have I missed anyone else out?) - none of them score(d) anywhere near enough for what a Liverpool central midfielder should do.

Alonso averaged a goal every 11 games.
Mascherano averaged a goal every 70 games.
Hamann averaged a goal every 25 games.
Sissoko averaged a goal every 87 games.
Merieles averaged a goal every 9 games.
Aquilani averaged a goal every 14 games.

Current players;

Lucas averages a goal every 31 games.
Henderson averages a goal every 25 games.
Shelvey averages a goal every 19 games.
Adam averages a goal every 18 games.
Spearing doesn't average a goal at all because he's yet to score.

They're some really shocking stats, Meireles is acceptable and Alonso's is the only other one I think that is ok. Given we play at least 40 games a season, I don't think it's hard for a midfielder to score 4 goals - one in every ten. Yet we haven't had that from anyone in the middle of the park bar Gerrard for getting close to a decade.

That won't be anything new though mate.

We haven't had a goalscorer from the middle of the park since Gerrard was an out an out central midfielder.

Alonso, Lucas, Mascherano, Hamann, Sissoko, Spearing, Adam, Shelvey, Henderson (I've purposely left that Danish fella out who Hodgson bought, but have I missed anyone else out?) - none of them score(d) anywhere near enough for what a Liverpool central midfielder should do.

Alonso averaged a goal every 11 games.
Mascherano averaged a goal every 70 games.
Hamann averaged a goal every 25 games.
Sissoko averaged a goal every 87 games.

Current players;

Lucas averages a goal every 31 games.
Henderson averages a goal every 25 games.
Shelvey averages a goal every 19 games.
Adam averages a goal every 18 games.
Spearing doesn't average a goal at all because he's yet to score.

They're some really shocking stats, Alonso's is the only one I think that is ok. Given we play at least 40 games a season, I don't think it's hard for a midfielder to score 4 goals - one in every ten. Yet we haven't had that from anyone in the middle of the park bar Gerrard for getting close to a decade.

Wonder how that compares with other teams?
Last season was a disaster for goals from midfield and its a contining problem but lets give tjis new set up time.
I;m more concerned with our forward line scoring abilities.

Wonder how that compares with other teams?
Last season was a disaster for goals from midfield and its a contining problem but lets give tjis new set up time.
I;m more concerned with our forward line scoring abilities.

Not sure how it compares with other teams mate, possibly on a level for all I know. I just think our midfielders need to chip in with more.

I am willing to give this system time but the early signs are that our central midfielders still won't be scoring. Which adds more pressure on the forwards to score and unfortunately we don't have a natural finisher in our ranks. Well we do and he scored on pre-season but god forbid we put a young Scouse lad named Adam Morgan in the side and see if he can handle the Premiership.

Be nice to at least have the threat coming from midfield, I would think it changes the complexion of a match when there is at least a threat, ala a Nasari.

 Which adds more pressure on the forwards to score and unfortunately we don't have a natural finisher in our ranks. Well we do and he scored on pre-season but god forbid we put a young Scouse lad named Adam Morgan in the side and see if he can handle the Premiership.

If we are not going to give these lads a chance what is the point of the academy. If we could get a couple of young lads in playing without fear who knows what might happen.
Lucas has always played a bit handcuffed IMHO and I would like to see him getting forward more.

I think Lucas and Allen will sort things out in the middle given a few games. I'm sure Lucas will return to his best again. I think when they sort out the automatic reaction needed, to where the other is situated in a game, things will improve. You need to get to know each others game a bit before you can opperate together. Two quality players with different strengths. What we don't need is for both of them getting too far forward, and when they settle, one will automatically hold if the other pushes on or drifts wide. Just take a while to sort out, but thought that was what pre season was for. Dragged the Allen transferr on too long.

Not sure how it compares with other teams mate, possibly on a level for all I know. I just think our midfielders need to chip in with more.

I am willing to give this system time but the early signs are that our central midfielders still won't be scoring. Which adds more pressure on the forwards to score and unfortunately we don't have a natural finisher in our ranks. Well we do and he scored on pre-season but god forbid we put a young Scouse lad named Adam Morgan in the side and see if he can handle the Premiership.

That's been one of the most frustrating things about our play in recent times, the lack of bodies in the box, especially when we've only one up top.  We need more players to show up in the final third.  We saw glimpses of that on Saturday, but nowhere near enough.  In the first half of Saturdays game, both Lucas and Allen got into the box a few times.  Didn't manage to score but I'm hopeful that will change as the players get used to the new system.

To the OP, Mick, imo have to say it was Stevie who was our most ineffective midfielder on the day.  He was really poor for him, taking into account his recent excellent performances for England.  True, Lucas was no where near his best, but he is still coming back from a very serious injury so we shouldn't expect miracles just yet.  I thought Allen was one of our better players on the day and I look forward to seeing the pair of them contain the EPL's attacking threats whilst at least setting up our own in the games to come and hopefully putting away a few for themselves.

People have short memories, Lucas, before his injury, managed to create / start some of our better attacks last season, which was something new he had brought to his game.  I for one am hoping we get to see that side of him again.  Give the lad a bit of time FFS, it's impressive he's even playing right now.

Like any partnership, it will take time to gel, the players will have to get to know each other. Once Lucas knows where Allen likes to operate in and vice versa, we will see better performances. I think it's Lucas that will have to do more adapting tho, as he really only plays one dimensionally, brilliantly too I may add. Whereas Allen, well looks like he, can play as a deep lying midfielder or as the box-to-box midfielder.

Once Lucas knows that Allen likes to come deep to get the ball and allow him the space to do this and that he is not the only one that has to do this anymore, it will work out better for us. And likewise Allen will have to learn that Lucas enjoys that part of the game and allow his to take that ball from the centre halves.

Maybe to get the best result from this partnership it may take Allen removing that part of his game, the coming deep, and concentrate on playing in the centre circle and higher and only playing the attacking creative passes and trusting Lucas to get the ball and give it to him. Of course it also depends on having an 3rd attacking midfielder actually making the runs that Allen can pass to, something that was lacking on Saturday.

I fully believe that for this to work properly we need for Allen to be comfortable taking passes higher up the pitch. He isn't an alonso who can turn defence into attack with ease and Lucas isn't a Mascherano who can snuff out any attacker. Lucas does really well getting the ball deep and keeping possession. Allen doesn't need to drop deep and hit square passes. Allen needs to learn to ply his craft in the thick on the midfield and in the oppositions half. It's ok if he drops a bit to get the ball but he must travel with it into the protected territory. This give guys like Suarez the kind of opportunity they crave. To be honest I would rather see Stevie drop and play like Alonso did and have Allen behind a front 3.

Like any partnership, it will take time to gel, the players will have to get to know each other. Once Lucas knows where Allen likes to operate in and vice versa, we will see better performances. I think it's Lucas that will have to do more adapting tho, as he really only plays one dimensionally, brilliantly too I may add. Whereas Allen, well looks like he, can play as a deep lying midfielder or as the box-to-box midfielder.

Once Lucas knows that Allen likes to come deep to get the ball and allow him the space to do this and that he is not the only one that has to do this anymore, it will work out better for us. And likewise Allen will have to learn that Lucas enjoys that part of the game and allow his to take that ball from the centre halves.

Maybe to get the best result from this partnership it may take Allen removing that part of his game, the coming deep, and concentrate on playing in the centre circle and higher and only playing the attacking creative passes and trusting Lucas to get the ball and give it to him. Of course it also depends on having an 3rd attacking midfielder actually making the runs that Allen can pass to, something that was lacking on Saturday.

Sorry to just pick out the bit in bold, but it is the part I disagree with most.

Watch how Lucas plays for Brazil, he's anything but one dimensional.
The difference is that Lucas always plays the way he's asked to, sticks to the game plan and rarely diverts from it.
That's not one dimensional, that's playing for the team, something quite a few other players could learn from him.

If Allen only scored 4 goals this season and Lucas 2 I wouldnt care a long as they were doing the job they are there to do and our strikers do what they are supposed to do.

I really think they will be a vital cog for us this year, once they learn each others games and gel. Patience and time required