Tactics geeks of the world unite...

Ive always been a bit of a tactics geek when it comes to the game, from when i started watching until now, even when i played id be watching little things during games that interest me... until i get distracted by something like a goal or a fit bird in the crowd like... I think Brendan is going to stoke my love for tactics to a new level so i thought why not see if anyone else likes this side of the game in depth and have somewhere we can talk about little subtle changes within games or things that have an effect to help win games.. Not just Liverpool but any you see in games that interest you..

Im not going to start with list after list to bore people straight out, hopefully others will add as and when, but ill start with a couple that have intrigued me already from our couple of games so far.



Brendan's play from the back policy/total football outlook..

Its as obvious to anyone that we are looking to pass teams to death, its caused us a couple of issues so far in games with mistakes at the back but what are the pluses and minuses of this?

Okay so the idea is to keep the ball and let it do the work for you, that it can travel faster than the players and shifting it quickly will open spaces..
Great in theory, great to watch but its has its downsides.
1. If the players you have dont suit it.. We have had teething problems with a couple of players at the back so far, Martin Skrtel being the main one, Carra a stand out that it may not suit at all.
Lets start with Martin, now he is 27, he has never really been asked to do this before in his career, he is what we may term and old fashioned CB, defend first think later.. But can he adapt to this type of game at this stage of his career? I tend to think he can, or a version of it anyway..
He has been at fault for 3 incidents so far this season, he slipped looking round, seemingly not knowing instinctivly his position where he was which led to Danny being exposed and pulling Shane Long down and getting a red. Then dwelling on the ball with an extra touch rather than play it which led to the Pen on Long and the back pass to Reina which let Tevez in..
Now players like Joe Allen, dont need to look half the time where they are playing it as they look before the ball is played and have a picture in their minds as to where players are from both sides around them.. He already knows that he can play a ball without it being intercepted without looking.. Can you teach a 27 year old "Old fashioned cb" to do that? Maybe not..
So Brendan may have to slightly develop with Skrts, that when he gets the ball he only plays it forward in his line of sight, that one of the midfielders in front of him drop to give him a ten yard pass, not the same one every time but one of them, and that needs to be automatic, then if that midfielder then plays it back to the other cb or Pepe and yes it may take 2 passes instead of 1 but we cut out a risk, but the midfield must work and develop on that as well...


With the policy of moving it from the back though it can lead you to be a bit predictable, if the opposition know thats what we do it allows them to press higher on us and create pressure which can lead us to the problems we have had so far, so its so important that we become better at moving the ball and very quickly and that everyone is always on the move.. You can see the idea is there already as the cbs split to get options and the full backs push higher up, with even the wide men dropping below them at times to link the play.. The signs are there but we have a way to go and the squad needs the right people in it for it to work, one man cant give the ball back as it leaves us exposed with gaps everywhere.. In a sense the idea is to not let them have the ball, but if you do give it away then you can be open..



One slight tactical change that had me purring Or how i read it anyway

In the Hearts match away last week, Raheem was tearing their right back open all first half, so second half John McGlynn dropped the right mid back to double up on Raheem to try and keep him quiet, which it did for the first half hour of the second period, so Brendan takes off Jack Robinson and puts Downing on at Lb to push it back onto them, got Raheem to come inside and Downing had space round the outside... Fantastic..








Ok ill stop for now, hopefully others want to add or it will be just me   

or it will be just me

All players need someone showing for the ball, in the case of Skrtel against City there was no one. It is hard work for 90 minutes to play this way, like the opposition think you must have 12 men on the pitch, which is why as the season goes on we will get better as the players will be fitter and of course subs are crucial. I can never predict the full starting 11 but I am pretty good and guessing the subs and who is coming off. As for tactics, I tend to think that we say to the opposition, this is our formation, this is our strongest 11 for this game, now try and stop us. No fear! We come not to play. 

Joe Allen always shows for the ball, Skrtels error was being too afraid to use his left foot.

One slight tactical change that had me purring Or how i read it anyway

In the Hearts match away last week, Raheem was tearing their right back open all first half, so second half John McGlynn dropped the right mid back to double up on Raheem to try and keep him quiet, which it did for the first half hour of the second period, so Brendan takes off Jack Robinson and puts Downing on at Lb to push it back onto them, got Raheem to come inside and Downing had space round the outside... Fantastic..

Interesting, my thoughts were that Robinson is fu**ed and we had no other alternative, unless we push Agger out there, but that disrupts the CB pairing.

Hadn't thought of it like that.

Personally I miss Reina launching the ball for a quick counter attack.
Don't mind bringing it out from the back as an approach, but there is
a lot to be said for catching teams on the break.

Hopefully we will utilise both this season.

Personally I miss Reina launching the ball for a quick counter attack.
Don't mind bringing it out from the back as an approach, but there is
a lot to be said for catching teams on the break.

Hopefully we will utilise both this season.

I found funny was how often Reina would throw out to Kuyt to start a (supposed to be fast) counter-attack. Kuyt! haha

Personally I miss Reina launching the ball for a quick counter attack.
Don't mind bringing it out from the back as an approach, but there is
a lot to be said for catching teams on the break.

Hopefully we will utilise both this season.

He was still on his feet really quickly and looking to roll or throw the ball out on Sunday so I still think Reina's 2nd to none distribution skills will come into play this season.

Good thread this by the way, I can happily talk football tactics all day long!

On the subject of Skrtel I tihnk it's going to take the lad some time. I've read a few times that he should have used his left foot but the minute you put most players (particularly the less technically gifted) under a bit of pressure they will always use their stronger foot. Skrtel's problem was that there was no awareness check before he played the pass. I don't doubt he will learn from it and hopefully he can string a few solid games together (given he hasn't started the season brilliantly) and grow in confidence from there. Rodger's comments after the game were superbly times and hopefully will have made the player feel better about the mistake.

Personally I miss Reina launching the ball for a quick counter attack.
Don't mind bringing it out from the back as an approach, but there is
a lot to be said for catching teams on the break.

Hopefully we will utilise both this season.

Me too mate, I agree with Scott as well though, he seemed to be still looking for it Sunday and the more teams maybe press onto us gaps may come at the back allowing him to get Luis, Borini or Raheem free quickly.

Me too mate, I agree with Scott as well though, he seemed to be still looking for it Sunday and the more teams maybe press onto us gaps may come at the back allowing him to get Luis, Borini or Raheem free quickly.

Hopefully, I'd love to see one launched for Sterling to chase.
Only one winner in that race for the ball.

On the ball playing style for CBs.
I think Skrtel would be okay at RCB. Had Agger been at LCB in that position all would have been well.

Hopefully, I'd love to see one launched for Sterling to chase.
Only one winner in that race for the ball.

On the ball playing style for CBs.
I think Skrtel would be okay at RCB. Had Agger been at LCB in that position all would have been well.

I'm sure we'll see it at some stage. Reina has the best flat kick in the legaue but it's not been worth trying it since Torres left because no one else has the wheels to get on the end of it.

Also, have to agree, I think we will see Reina play the ball to Agger far mmore often when he is fit and in the side

I want to contibute to this thread, but I've been far to busy.

My favourite are the lime & mandarin ones.

I want to contibute to this thread, but I've been far to busy.

My favourite are the lime & mandarin ones.

Well of course... The mint ones are w*nk..

I do think that this season and under BR we will play our way regardless of the opposition the vast majority of the time, and that variations will more than likely come from the players in each position.  In recent years we have regularly adapted our formation/tactics to suit certain opposition - sometimes more successfully than others.  Under BR players will know their role in the team, and this will stay fairly consistent.  The negative is it will take time to get right, the positive is that once it is in place we will be a very solid unit.

I have said in another thread somewhere that I expect BR to adopt more of a Utd/Ars model of building a team than the City/Che model of buying "big signings".  I think the team approach is the long term solution.

One we have to watch with the way we are playing is having the full backs so high the CBS keep getting caught two on two..

The holding midfielder needs to drop a bit further when the full backs have gone.

Costing us.

The thing more than anything that is sticking out is we look so open at the back playing like this..

The full backs are so high and we are pushing high up the pitch almost expecting that this football will lead to goals which isn't happening yet, and when we lose the ball we have gaps everywhere.

The two goals today I've seen many just blame Stevie and Pepe for the goals but let's face it how often do you give the ball away in the final 3rd and expect to concede? And yes Pepe should do better with the second.. But the two I'd blame for the goals more are Glen Johnson and Stewart Downing.. They both didn't do their jobs and let their runners go..

That's not good enough as a whole, you have to defend as a team and at the minute we aren't doing that.. I'll hold my hands up I didn't watch enough of Swansea last season but looking at the table from last year they conceded 51 in 38 games, well 36 as they kept 2 clean sheets against us.. So it doesn't seem for all the good football they played that they were tight at the back.

The thing more than anything that is sticking out is we look so open at the back playing like this..

The full backs are so high and we are pushing high up the pitch almost expecting that this football will lead to goals which isn't happening yet, and when we lose the ball we have gaps everywhere.

The two goals today I've seen many just blame Stevie and Pepe for the goals but let's face it how often do you give the ball away in the final 3rd and expect to concede? And yes Pepe should do better with the second.. But the two I'd blame for the goals more are Glen Johnson and Stewart Downing.. They both didn't do their jobs and let their runners go..

That's not good enough as a whole, you have to defend as a team and at the minute we aren't doing that.. I'll hold my hands up I didn't watch enough of Swansea last season but looking at the table from last year they conceded 51 in 38 games, well 36 as they kept 2 clean sheets against us.. So it doesn't seem for all the good football they played that they were tight at the back.

Had my say in the Owners thread and honestly can't be arsed to bi*ch anymore about the squad deficiencies we're facing with 9 leaving and only 4 coming in. would rather spend my time looking at Rodgers tactics and what he needs to do to get things working. Agree entirely on the full-backs being INCREDIBLY high up the pitch and it's cost us at the weekend with Arsenal getting two goals on the break and in truth, they could have had a couple more.

I would argue:

- We've been a bit naive given the quality of the opposition so far. Seven seconds or not, you've got to pay the likes of Arsenal, City and the mancs a bit more respect. Every time we lost the ball we looked vunerable on Sunday. Gerrard and Suarez were the biggest culprits but they weren't the only ones. Both players like to try things (which is great) BUT against a quality side with pace we're sitting ducks. Stevie has ALWAYS been wasteful in possession, it's part of his game, part of what has made him such a good player (the balls to try things and the ability to carry them off) but he's given it away several times so far this campaign and caused the back four (or shall we call them the back two!) problems. Either we look after the ball better (play with a little less urgency) or one of the full-backs tucks in (to make a three) whilst the other (I'd suggest Jonno) pushes on. Agree on the holding middie needing to play deeper, in fact with the full-backs so high I'd look to play two lads further back the same way Brazil played at the last World Cup. We're not quite good enough to play the way BR wants at the moment and as Mick suggested in the Manager thread (by the way this was the best place for that post Mick!), he will have to adjust his expectations a little and look to apply his concepts in stages.

- Anyone notice Arsenal playing us at our own game several times yesterday? They pressed us (particularly the left back/mid spot) high up the pitch and forced several errors because they knew our lads would try to pass their way out. sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't but already teams are identifying ways to put us into trouble. Enrique in particular (for me) is a real weak link in this respect. I don't know if some of the smaller sides will have the balls to try it but you can bet the mancs will look to exploit our lads trying to play around with it in dangerous areas.

We looked like Arsenal losing to barca every time when we played them yesterday.. now i know how they feel when they lose every year to better masters of the system.

I think we play a 2 - 3 -3 system. The 2 wing backs play on the outside of these three levels, progressing up the pitch as the play develops. They can make a back 4, middle 5 or attacking 5 giving us good numbers going forward.

The problem as PD pointed out is that when we lose the ball high up IF the middle 3 dont stop the play we are left exposed with only 2 defenders. Even barca live off this risk every game but they rely mostly on keeping possession even in the final third.

BUT most worryingly is Barca rely on outscoring the opponents even when they concede. We will be lucky to knock in 3 or 4 goals if we go down 2 like what happened yesterday.

Weve got stevie and luis giving the ball away for fun, no lucas with Reina in his worst form since he came to the club.

Overall I think defensively this system makes us easier to score against than last season. Especially as we have imo a weaker squad and only allen used to playing it regularly. If you could add cazorla, silva etc in one go we could use it straight away but it is gonna be a long season imo

It's not just about us becoming the possession masters. Barca do this.. Arseanl do this.. What is going to make us better at than them. Are we going to develop a great crop of youngsters, schooled in the system, at the right time i.e. when there isn't a Barca at the height of their powers to defeat us. Is Rodgers going to be given time to implement his philosophy and align it to a tactical nous that will give us the edge. There are too many questions when you highlight one aspect like 'system' or 'tactics'.

We need to pursue a long term strategy of playing style aligned to recruitment style and make sure it is implemented at all levels and keep honing it until the day everything comes together and we are truly a great side.

Part of this is being true to the Liverpool style of passing football aligned with workmanlike application. Unfortunately in the modern era, Socialist values are pretty hard for the 'superstars' to understand.

From a tactical viewpoint I'm wondering why Brendan is persisting with Luis as the focal point in the front 3?

Is it a genuine tactical decision or a case of he doesn't feel he has many options?

I've read on here over the last few days that Brendan says he feels that the CF role is his natural one as he doesn't feel he can play wide in the system? I've not actually heard that from Brendan but read it on here.. Is this true? ( doesn't he play wide of Forlan for Uruguay? In a similar formation?)

For me he isn't a natural focal point... He can be wasteful in front of goal, he drifts from the position at times to be involved, the ball doesn't "stick" and often comes back at us..
Now this isn't having a go at someone I rate very highly, more just from a tactical side as to why and if a change would benefit us as a side, make us more prolific in front of goal..

If Brendan doesn't feel Luis can play "wide" in the 4-3-3 then surely he needs to adapt around Luis to get more from him and more for us as a side?

If he does believe its his best position will that affect future transfer plans? I mean by this that if Brendan thinks Luis is best suited to the middle of the 3 then he won't necessarily go looking for a new CF? Because when Luis is fit he will play, so the likelyhood of signing a top class reserve where we are financially right now isn't going to happen... So are we more likely to be looking to bring in a wide forward rather than a central forward? ( which would lead me to think someone like Jose Callajon from Real on loan in January or the like)

If Brendan feels that Luis can't play wide then maybe a change of formation is needed to suit Luis... Where he could play in the hole ( who will be the first to bring the big mick gif out ) behind a main goalscorer...

A goalscorer is key to this side, and for all the will in the world Luis isn't one, he is a scorer of great goals, not a great goalscorer... He will consistently get 15 or so a season but for us to challenge we need someone getting 25 in front of him..

Even now I'd try a Morgan or Yesil ( Borini when fit) in front of Luis, let someone take the burden from him, let him do what he does best and let someone else do the scruffy things...
Is Brendan saying he is a natural cf to boost his confidence or does he feel that? I think if we persist with him as the main target we will continue to struggle for goals to an extent..

Luis is a wonderful player but a lone central striker? Not for what I've seen.

From a tactical viewpoint I'm wondering why Brendan is persisting with Luis as the focal point in the front 3?

Is it a genuine tactical decision or a case of he doesn't feel he has many options?

I've read on here over the last few days that Brendan says he feels that the CF role is his natural one as he doesn't feel he can play wide in the system? I've not actually heard that from Brendan but read it on here.. Is this true? ( doesn't he play wide of Forlan for Uruguay? In a similar formation?)

For me he isn't a natural focal point... He can be wasteful in front of goal, he drifts from the position at times to be involved, the ball doesn't "stick" and often comes back at us..
Now this isn't having a go at someone I rate very highly, more just from a tactical side as to why and if a change would benefit us as a side, make us more prolific in front of goal..

If Brendan doesn't feel Luis can play "wide" in the 4-3-3 then surely he needs to adapt around Luis to get more from him and more for us as a side?

If he does believe its his best position will that affect future transfer plans? I mean by this that if Brendan thinks Luis is best suited to the middle of the 3 then he won't necessarily go looking for a new CF? Because when Luis is fit he will play, so the likelyhood of signing a top class reserve where we are financially right now isn't going to happen... So are we more likely to be looking to bring in a wide forward rather than a central forward? ( which would lead me to think someone like Jose Callajon from Real on loan in January or the like)

If Brendan feels that Luis can't play wide then maybe a change of formation is needed to suit Luis... Where he could play in the hole ( who will be the first to bring the big mick gif out ) behind a main goalscorer...

A goalscorer is key to this side, and for all the will in the world Luis isn't one, he is a scorer of great goals, not a great goalscorer... He will consistently get 15 or so a season but for us to challenge we need someone getting 25 in front of him..

Even now I'd try a Morgan or Yesil ( Borini when fit) in front of Luis, let someone take the burden from him, let him do what he does best and let someone else do the scruffy things...
Is Brendan saying he is a natural cf to boost his confidence or does he feel that? I think if we persist with him as the main target we will continue to struggle for goals to an extent..

Luis is a wonderful player but a lone central striker? Not for what I've seen.

I agree, Luis is better when he plays as one of the wide players in the 3 as it suits him more to enable him to pick the ball up and go at people and link up with someone else like he does with Forlan with Uruguay and he did with El Hamdoui and with Huntelaar with Ajax. It also suits the team better. The problem is with us a the moment is who would play in the central role.

Another slight tactical note from our current system for me..

We need to sort out who is doing what in the midfield 3...

On Saturday we had


         Allen
Gerrard   Sahin

Now Lucas is the missing key currently to have a "natural sitter" in front of the back 4.. But even then the 3 need to sort between them who goes and when, ideally you need a Lucas to tidy up and give it simple and an Allen or Sahin to tick the play over then one bursting to join the attack... At the minute two keep getting forward at the same time, making the same runs, almost getting in each others way, and with Luis not being a natural "6 yard box striker" he tends to drop and the two from midfield and him are taking up the same space, leaving us cramped in there..
Then if we are broken on quickly Allen is being left isolated and him not being a natural "Lucas" he sometimes is 10 yards too high and the defence is exposed.

It's minor details but it needs sorting...

Are two going forward on instinct as we aren't scoring enough? There were occasions on Saturday when there were just too many bodies in the same few yards and the move broke down.

Yeah it's true that he stated he sees Suarez as a central striker.  Mentioned how well he can beat a man, but with his pace, it's better if he's closer to the goal when he does this. 

Also if you look at the summer targets.  Dempsey and Sturridge and even the Walcott links.  None of them are central strikers.   I honestly don't believe we'll be seeing a centre forward come in tbh. Even if by some miracle FSG actually wanted to spend some of their cash.   Which is a damn shame.   

Hopefully he's had a change of heart on this matter.  Cause we'll not score anywhere near enough goals without a natural predator in the side.

I have watched back a couple of the games over the last few days (Mrs not well  ) to see from my opinion what doesnt seem quite right in terms of tactically what we are not quite getting right..

We are playing 4-3-3 but for me looking at times there are a few things not quite clicking, with personel? with tactics?... Now look at the Newcastle match, individually the two cbs, Skrtel and Agger handled Ba and Cisse well, no problems there.. The thing im worried about is a couple of things,

1. The midfield isnt working at the moment.. Why?...

Lack of Lucas? Yes probably, he is the natural defensive anchor in there

Square pegs round holes? mmmm.. Well for me we are obviously lacking goals (not rocket science) and the most natural goalgetter and probably best finisher at the club is Gerrard.. Yet he is playing very deep, not linking with the final 3 enough.. Sahin, from all i can read back on today is better suited to a deep playmaker.. Yet he has been the furthest forward during games? Why are the two not switched?

The gaps around the midfield..

Now it may be 4-3-3, yet currently the defense is too deep, almost on the keeper which i cant understand.. The forward 3 are very high and the midfield are struggling to plug the two gaps, hence we are getting over run in there even though we are playing a 3..

It seems to be this currently


                        Reina

            Skrtel              Agger
Wisdom                               Johnson




                  Allen

---------------------------------------------------- (Half way line)

           Gerrard
                          Sahin



                    Suarez
                        /
Suso                 /                  Sterling
                       /
                       /

This is leaving too many gaps for the midfield to plug and a big gap behind our midfield in front of the back four.. Also if you look at Suso right now, lovely player that he is he isnt giving any cover to his full back, he left Enrique 1 on 1 against Newcastle and Wisdom 1 on 1 against Everton that led to goals..

We need to be tighter, the midfield needs to be better balanced, Gerrard must move forward and allow Sahin to sit next to Allen, the wide men need to help the full backs and also need to get beyond Suarez to add numbers in the box, thats not easy but its why Rodgers formation needs pace out wide..

Brendan from what i can gather so far doesnt use width as much as i thought he would do.. Is that a design or something that we have stumbled on in aid to give Suarez as much of the ball as possible?

I looked back on Swansea last season and where their goals came from and who got them in the midfield 3 and front 3

Britton 36 games 0 goals
Allen 36  3
Sigurdsson 17  7
Graham 36  12
Moore 20  2
Lita 16  2
Routledge 28  1
Dyer 34  5
Sinclair 38  8

So of that midfield "6" they got 40 goals between them over the season, only 14 from wide players, 26 from more central players.. And i wonder how many of the wide players goals were free kicks/Penaltys and where they came inside? He seems relient on someone up top to get goals, great thats what we all want plus a midfield runner/no.10 to get forward and get goals..
So that takes me back to Gerrard, best finisher still at the club, get him in areas where he can get them.. Shelvey is his rotation... Late in games if Stevie needs to come off or if he is rested then use Jonjo as the runner/10..

Up until January in my opinion we need to be more solid at the back, now that for me means two holding midfielders, allowing the full backs to get forward when they can to provide width, and a smarter use of what we have currently..


                     Reina

           Skrtel        Agger
Wisdom                         Johnson


             Allen    Sahin


 ----------------------------------------

                  Gerrard

Downing      Suarez        Sterling


Now i know people will think im mad sticking Downing in, but im not talking every game, but i dont think Suso needs flogging, i think he gets starts but i thibk he will develop better from coming on in games for the last 20 when teams tire and games get stretched.. (I dont thibnk Downing will start as i think he is part of a game BR is playing with the owners but thats for a different thread)

The idea then is to have Lucas back in one of the holding roles and Henderson as rotation, so 4 rotating for two postions ( think Henderson is also part of this game for Rodgers with the owners so dont expect him in much though) Then you can rotate Shelvey with Gerrard and even Suso when and if... Assaidi, Borini and Suso (Cole) as rotation for the two wide men and Borini for Suarez...

Ive noticed we have gone back to long balls a bit more recently, is that something Rodgers wants them to do or is it something that in games players are doing off their own backs as they feels more comfortable? Or if they see a good long ball why not use it? Is it design or instinct?

We need to tighten up though, we look very shaky at the back in this formation, the players are learning yes, and having so many kids in who arent used to the football at this level wont help, but we need to get where we defend and attack as a unit, at the moment at times we defend and attack in seperate parts and the midfield is trying to link the two and getting over run..



I do think we will get there, i think Rodgers will be a success, but i think he is still learning, so we will have to show patience with him, he hasnt managed at "this level" before so he needs time as well, but he also needs a few more seasoned players adding to his squad ( i think he knows this also and think he is playing with the owners to show that, again different thread)


We look a nice side currently, we play it nice, but there are fundamental issues that need sorting out immediately for me.