Tactics geeks of the world unite...

Why Liverpool Don’t Need To Acquire a Defensive Midfielder:

  https://archive.is/Alosk 


A good read.

Really good read that. It makes a very valid point regards moving Trent into the 6 role. Certainly you could spend a moderate fee for a quality RB such as Pavard with a view to Trent playing at 6 and also being available as RB.

The only thing I disagree on is regards teams becoming more defensive regards the full backs. I think the reason DMs are at a premium is because full backs play so high, and even without the ball they are very much part of the pressing game. If the opppo beat the press or you lose the ball with so many players committed forward you’re in trouble.

Really good read though and makes a lot of sense.

I was curious what people on here would think about a potential reshuffle of the backline in terms of who plays where. I am throwing this idea around, but I'm pretty sure Klopp is very loyal to Robertson and will want to keep him in the starting lineup and try and get him to be better at this new role.

With that said, would it make sense to bring Joe Gomez into the starting 11 and shift Konate from RCB to LCB or even put Konate in that central role and shift VVD to LCB? I think that Gomez is a good defender when paired with another good center-half and given a few games to get up to speed. He has the speed to cover that space on the right flank and can run into those spaces with the ball when needed to. However, would it be a waste of Konate's physical abilities to put him in that central role and it would be preferable to leave VVD in there and put Konate at LCB? VVD is used to playing as the LCB in a 4 man backline and so he's used to being put in confrontations with wingers and I think he's still the best defender in the league in 1 v. 1 situations.

The idea here is to get a much more solid back 3 in order to avoid situations like the Chelsea game where Chelsea was very clearly targeting our left flank which in turn creates problems for us because I think what we're trying to do is squeeze the opponent into those central areas in order to take advantage of that 4-men midfield we create when TAA tucks in and our high intensity press. Robbo had a clear problem of not being able to read the space behind him too well and so he gets caught in those easy 1-2's which completely takes him out and when the winger also cuts to the inside near the box after leaving him so far behind it forces VVD to go forwards which in turn also leaves Konate by his lonesome in the box which is quite the opposite of what you hope to achieve playing a back 3.

I don't know. I'm just throwing this idea in the air. I haven't given it much more thought than what I wrote, but I'm interested in hearing what you guys have to say about the idea and if you were to bring Gomez into the fold then where do you put him and does VVD stay the central CB for you or not.

I was curious what people on here would think about a potential reshuffle of the backline in terms of who plays where. I am throwing this idea around, but I'm pretty sure Klopp is very loyal to Robertson and will want to keep him in the starting lineup and try and get him to be better at this new role.

With that said, would it make sense to bring Joe Gomez into the starting 11 and shift Konate from RCB to LCB or even put Konate in that central role and shift VVD to LCB? I think that Gomez is a good defender when paired with another good center-half and given a few games to get up to speed. He has the speed to cover that space on the right flank and can run into those spaces with the ball when needed to. However, would it be a waste of Konate's physical abilities to put him in that central role and it would be preferable to leave VVD in there and put Konate at LCB? VVD is used to playing as the LCB in a 4 man backline and so he's used to being put in confrontations with wingers and I think he's still the best defender in the league in 1 v. 1 situations.

The idea here is to get a much more solid back 3 in order to avoid situations like the Chelsea game where Chelsea was very clearly targeting our left flank which in turn creates problems for us because I think what we're trying to do is squeeze the opponent into those central areas in order to take advantage of that 4-men midfield we create when TAA tucks in and our high intensity press. Robbo had a clear problem of not being able to read the space behind him too well and so he gets caught in those easy 1-2's which completely takes him out and when the winger also cuts to the inside near the box after leaving him so far behind it forces VVD to go forwards which in turn also leaves Konate by his lonesome in the box which is quite the opposite of what you hope to achieve playing a back 3.

I don't know. I'm just throwing this idea in the air. I haven't given it much more thought than what I wrote, but I'm interested in hearing what you guys have to say about the idea and if you were to bring Gomez into the fold then where do you put him and does VVD stay the central CB for you or not.

I think it’s more important not to constantly turn the ball over and end up with stats of 35% possession.

Never seen a Klopp team so poor in controlling possession.

We need Konate to cover for Trent and why shuffle the back line putting players out of their preferred positions.

I was curious what people on here would think about a potential reshuffle of the backline in terms of who plays where. I am throwing this idea around, but I'm pretty sure Klopp is very loyal to Robertson and will want to keep him in the starting lineup and try and get him to be better at this new role.

With that said, would it make sense to bring Joe Gomez into the starting 11 and shift Konate from RCB to LCB or even put Konate in that central role and shift VVD to LCB? I think that Gomez is a good defender when paired with another good center-half and given a few games to get up to speed. He has the speed to cover that space on the right flank and can run into those spaces with the ball when needed to. However, would it be a waste of Konate's physical abilities to put him in that central role and it would be preferable to leave VVD in there and put Konate at LCB? VVD is used to playing as the LCB in a 4 man backline and so he's used to being put in confrontations with wingers and I think he's still the best defender in the league in 1 v. 1 situations.

The idea here is to get a much more solid back 3 in order to avoid situations like the Chelsea game where Chelsea was very clearly targeting our left flank which in turn creates problems for us because I think what we're trying to do is squeeze the opponent into those central areas in order to take advantage of that 4-men midfield we create when TAA tucks in and our high intensity press. Robbo had a clear problem of not being able to read the space behind him too well and so he gets caught in those easy 1-2's which completely takes him out and when the winger also cuts to the inside near the box after leaving him so far behind it forces VVD to go forwards which in turn also leaves Konate by his lonesome in the box which is quite the opposite of what you hope to achieve playing a back 3.

I don't know. I'm just throwing this idea in the air. I haven't given it much more thought than what I wrote, but I'm interested in hearing what you guys have to say about the idea and if you were to bring Gomez into the fold then where do you put him and does VVD stay the central CB for you or not.

It’s a tricky one. This set up looked really good during the last 8-10 games of last season. And funnily enough we saw a return to form from Fabinho during that time as well. I’m interested to see how it works with Endo playing in the 6 role.

As for Robbo, I really don’t like him tucked in, particularly when we’ve got the ball. He’s so one footed he needs to be on the chalk and ideally defending in the front foot in the press. I don’t particularly like the idea of van dyke out there either tbh. He’s doesn’t have that aura anymore and appears to be be a more reactive defender these days. I think he’d get found out.

Key to this system is keeping the ball (certainly better than last Sunday) and then winning it back quick when we lose it. I’m problem we have is that everyone knows the diag is on every time we lose the ball. Even with a decent press it’s not the hardest ball in the world for most top players to hit.

I think I’d like to see us alternate with games. You could quite easily have phases of play where Trent steps in and then others where he plays as an orthadox Fb (and Robbo too)

It’s a tricky one. This set up looked really good during the last 8-10 games of last season. And funnily enough we saw a return to form from Fabinho during that time as well. I’m interested to see how it works with Endo playing in the 6 role.

As for Robbo, I really don’t like him tucked in, particularly when we’ve got the ball. He’s so one footed he needs to be on the chalk and ideally defending in the front foot in the press. I don’t particularly like the idea of van dyke out there either tbh. He’s doesn’t have that aura anymore and appears to be be a more reactive defender these days. I think he’d get found out.

Key to this system is keeping the ball (certainly better than last Sunday) and then winning it back quick when we lose it. I’m problem we have is that everyone knows the diag is on every time we lose the ball. Even with a decent press it’s not the hardest ball in the world for most top players to hit.

I think I’d like to see us alternate with games. You could quite easily have phases of play where Trent steps in and then others where he plays as an orthadox Fb (and Robbo too)

I too don't like Robbo tucked in as I feel he doesn't have the reflexes and defensive read of the space that is needed to do a top job covering the space that comes with the LCB position. He tends to push his man to the touchline and leave a huge hole behind him which Chelsea used a lot with a few one-twos. The addition of Endo, who is presumably going to play on his side, will no doubt help especially if Endo can run a lot and help him cover those spaces because to be fair, he didn't get a ton of help either on that left side during the Chelsea game. Short of buying someone or shuffling the backline I think we'll just have to wait until we've played a sizeable amount of games and assess the situation afterwards.

I also agree that it would be wise to be able to shift back to a back 4 system during games depending on what we need.

I think that there was a lot of good things in that Chelsea game. The shift in power was so sudden and strong during the game that a lot of people completely forgot about the good stuff. I think that if we can fix our CDM spot (hopefully Endo is a good first step) and Mac and Dom continue to gel with the team, we'll be slapping teams around after 6 or 7 games (and I mean it when I say ''slap''). The two lads looked amazing and the more we manage to keep the ball and put it at their feet the more dangerous we will be because they are truly creative, press resistant and flair. However, to do that, I think we will need very good performances from both TAA and Endo because they are going to be crucial in quickly closing down the opponent when we lose the ball in the opposition's half. One of the most frustrating moments in the game was TAA losing the ball to a Chelsea player and just walking (that was the play that sent Jackson on sort of a 1 v. 1 with Konate struggling to keep up). If he wants to play that position then he'll need to make sure stuff like that doesn't happen again (to be fair it was the first game, maybe fitness, who knows).

I think it’s more important not to constantly turn the ball over and end up with stats of 35% possession.

Never seen a Klopp team so poor in controlling possession.

We need Konate to cover for Trent and why shuffle the back line putting players out of their preferred positions.

The whole idea stems from the fact I think Robbo is having a hard time in that spot. It will get better as the whole team gets better, but I don't know how good he will get and I have my doubts about him playing that position in games against top opposition. I also think Gomez has something to offer in that team. Lots of people just wrote him off, but I think that when given time to get into game form he is good. He's not the player that hits the ground running, he needs 2 or 3 games to get up to speed.

With that said, I agree with you that we need to fix our problems in the middle of the park first. If you constantly lose the ball then you're going to struggle regardless of anything.

The whole idea stems from the fact I think Robbo is having a hard time in that spot. It will get better as the whole team gets better, but I don't know how good he will get and I have my doubts about him playing that position in games against top opposition.

He looked far more comfortable when we went down to 10 men and then he could operate as a traditional Left Back. He needs to be on the front foot, pressing the ball, overlapping and staying on the chalk. He looks very uncertain when he tucks in, like he doesn't know quite where he is meant to be. He is also very one footed, his passing angles are all different in this position, he is receiving the ball in deeper areas and now needs to use his right foot more often.

I question the need to continue with the Trent inside experiment. I get why Klopp implemented this last season. For years Trent and Robbo were the key to our attacking play along with the 3 up top but the opposition seemed to finally have the measure of this approach and the goals dried up. Problem was we had such a workmanlike midfield and the likes of Hendo, Fab, Milner etc could not offer any solutions to the problem, hence the tactical switch. But now, with the introduction of Mac and Szobo we have creative solutions in the middle of the pitch. We don't need to persist with this midfiled overload and the defensive challenges that it brings. Get back to having 2 rampaging full-backs. Sure Trent can step infield but have him play in that inside right channel (the way KDB does) rather than having licence to go where ever he wants (as seems to be the case). And have him do it occasionally rather than all the time. This system asks too much of the 2 centre-halves. It offers an easy out ball (for the oppo) with the diagonal, and teams with good movement and breaking midfielders will move VVD and Konate into places they don't want to be and then force our middies to track runners from deep. If you are going to play with this system, for me you need to mobile, hardworking DMs who can run all day be it in the press or recovery runs when we turn the ball over. It's a job for two (not a single 6 such as Endo).

I question the need to continue with the Trent inside experiment. I get why Klopp implemented this last season. For years Trent and Robbo were the key to our attacking play along with the 3 up top but the opposition seemed to finally have the measure of this approach and the goals dried up. Problem was we had such a workmanlike midfield and the likes of Hendo, Fab, Milner etc could not offer any solutions to the problem, hence the tactical switch. But now, with the introduction of Mac and Szobo we have creative solutions in the middle of the pitch. We don't need to persist with this midfiled overload and the defensive challenges that it brings. Get back to having 2 rampaging full-backs. Sure Trent can step infield but have him play in that inside right channel (the way KDB does) rather than having licence to go where ever he wants (as seems to be the case). And have him do it occasionally rather than all the time. This system asks too much of the 2 centre-halves. It offers an easy out ball (for the oppo) with the diagonal, and teams with good movement and breaking midfielders will move VVD and Konate into places they don't want to be and then force our middies to track runners from deep. If you are going to play with this system, for me you need to mobile, hardworking DMs who can run all day be it in the press or recovery runs when we turn the ball over. It's a job for two (not a single 6 such as Endo).

I agree with all of that and then my mind tells me that we're unbeaten in our last 13 Premier League, which I think coincides with the new role for Trent, so maybe we should stick with it.

I don't think we're playing anywhere near our best, we look shaky at the back but we're getting results whereas before the change in system, we weren't playing anywhere near our best. looked shaky at the back and weren't getting results (on a regular enough basis at least).

Ultimately putting a new practice in place isn't going to happen overnight. And 13 games isn't a lot of time for us to have perfected it and ironed out all the little wrinkles of the new system - especially when we have seen such an overhaul of players in the middle of the park in that short space of time. So I think we'll be sticking with the current way of playing and hopefully over time, the players will become more accustomed to it and work out how they need to play in this set up.

I agree with all of that and then my mind tells me that we're unbeaten in our last 13 Premier League, which I think coincides with the new role for Trent, so maybe we should stick with it.

I don't think we're playing anywhere near our best, we look shaky at the back but we're getting results whereas before the change in system, we weren't playing anywhere near our best. looked shaky at the back and weren't getting results (on a regular enough basis at least).

Ultimately putting a new practice in place isn't going to happen overnight. And 13 games isn't a lot of time for us to have perfected it and ironed out all the little wrinkles of the new system - especially when we have seen such an overhaul of players in the middle of the park in that short space of time. So I think we'll be sticking with the current way of playing and hopefully over time, the players will become more accustomed to it and work out how they need to play in this set up.

I think Klopp is 100% committed to it as well mate. I agree we looked really good towards the end of last year and I think it was no coincidence that Fabinho showed some form as well at this time. I think it can work with the correct midfield reinforcements but am beginning to feel like this Endo roll of the dice will be all that comes in. Our midfield looks more creative than in previous but a lot less robust.

I think Klopp is 100% committed to it as well mate. I agree we looked really good towards the end of last year and I think it was no coincidence that Fabinho showed some form as well at this time. I think it can work with the correct midfield reinforcements but am beginning to feel like this Endo roll of the dice will be all that comes in. Our midfield looks more creative than in previous but a lot less robust.

I know I've said it before but I think the left side of defense is just as important to make the system work fully mate.

Love Robbo but he does look very uneasy at times in this system.

I think Klopp is 100% committed to it as well mate. I agree we looked really good towards the end of last year and I think it was no coincidence that Fabinho showed some form as well at this time. I think it can work with the correct midfield reinforcements but am beginning to feel like this Endo roll of the dice will be all that comes in. Our midfield looks more creative than in previous but a lot less robust.

I still think we'll get another midfielder in of some description. We should have somewhere close to 100m left to spend going off of the Caicedo bid, so somebody should be coming in. Who that is, is anyones guess at this point.

But I'm up for the season good and proper. Breathtakingly brilliant going forward and heartbreakingly bad at the back leads to some exciting football.

He looked far more comfortable when we went down to 10 men and then he could operate as a traditional Left Back. He needs to be on the front foot, pressing the ball, overlapping and staying on the chalk. He looks very uncertain when he tucks in, like he doesn't know quite where he is meant to be. He is also very one footed, his passing angles are all different in this position, he is receiving the ball in deeper areas and now needs to use his right foot more often.

I question the need to continue with the Trent inside experiment. I get why Klopp implemented this last season. For years Trent and Robbo were the key to our attacking play along with the 3 up top but the opposition seemed to finally have the measure of this approach and the goals dried up. Problem was we had such a workmanlike midfield and the likes of Hendo, Fab, Milner etc could not offer any solutions to the problem, hence the tactical switch. But now, with the introduction of Mac and Szobo we have creative solutions in the middle of the pitch. We don't need to persist with this midfiled overload and the defensive challenges that it brings. Get back to having 2 rampaging full-backs. Sure Trent can step infield but have him play in that inside right channel (the way KDB does) rather than having licence to go where ever he wants (as seems to be the case). And have him do it occasionally rather than all the time. This system asks too much of the 2 centre-halves. It offers an easy out ball (for the oppo) with the diagonal, and teams with good movement and breaking midfielders will move VVD and Konate into places they don't want to be and then force our middies to track runners from deep. If you are going to play with this system, for me you need to mobile, hardworking DMs who can run all day be it in the press or recovery runs when we turn the ball over. It's a job for two (not a single 6 such as Endo).

I agree with you. I think the current system asks a lot of the two DMs and for a certain type of backline. Those are two things we don't have, especially with Robbo as the LCB, hence why I asked if it would make sense to take him out and bring in Gomez even if it meant moving Konate to the LCB since it seems like we're not moving for a CB despite the need for a left-footed one. It's not a great solution, but my feeling is that, defensively speaking, it would ease things a bit on VVD who, from the two games we've played so far this season, is often stuck with huge spaces around him to cover because Robbo is not a CB.

With that said, moving back to our original 4-3-3 might be a good idea. However, we have to remember why this whole thing happened in the first place which was the dreadful defensive output of TAA coupled with our midfield not being able to cope anymore with covering his flank when he went up the pitch. It worked well when we had Gini in the side because he was, in my opinion, a phenomenon and quite literally one of the most underrated players in our recent history. Gini could run for days, recover the ball, win aerial duels, transition defense to offense and still find a way to appear in the box to head a cross into the goal. He left and Hendo took that role to what I'd call temporary success so it kept on working for a bit more.

As things stand, the RCM position is Szobo's. The lad has demonstrated, among other things, lots of energy and a willingness to run back, but I fear we'd take a lot of his offensive game away from him if we were to stick him in that position without the Konate help he gets in covering Trent in the current system which also accounts for Trent defensive frailty by tucking him into the middle and utilizing him as a deep-lying playmaker instead of letting him bomb up and down the right wing. Szobo is a player who needs the ball at his feet to give you 100% of the qualities that made you buy him. If we try to play him at RCM in the context of our traditional 4-3-3, in my opinion, we'll lose a lot of his offensive output.

This is one of the reasons I was so excited when we bid for Caicedo. Its not so much that Caicedo is a good footballer with the ball at his feet, but the fact that he's a machine who, like Gini, has that ability to be everywhere all at once and does everything at a 7/10 rate and we don't necessarily need him to do tons offensively speaking in that new system. He would've been perfect because he covers a lot of space and is quick. Can Endo do that? I'm not sure.

In my opinion, right now we're stuck between two stools. We don't have the tools to play the 4-3-3 to full potential and we also don't have the tools to play the new system the ideal way.

I know I've said it before but I think the left side of defense is just as important to make the system work fully mate.

Love Robbo but he does look very uneasy at times in this system.

I would get Kieran Tierney in, play him behind robbo like we do with scotland.

Nice wee 3 at the back, enabling robbo and trent to push forward with less worries about whats behind.

 I would have also went all in for John Mcginn, but thats just my scottish bias showing thru. l o l

I would get Kieran Tierney in, play him behind robbo like we do with scotland.

Nice wee 3 at the back, enabling robbo and trent to push forward with less worries about whats behind.

 I would have also went all in for John Mcginn, but thats just my scottish bias showing thru. l o l

Tierney is a talented player but even Naby had a better injury record.

I do like McGinn though, although I’m not sure we’d need him with Mac and Szobo. Good player though and sticks his foot in.

Tierney is a talented player but even Naby had a better injury record.

I do like McGinn though, although I’m not sure we’d need him with Mac and Szobo. Good player though and sticks his foot in.

Yea KT has a terrible injury record TBF.

And yea if we got Mcginn before we signed those 2 and before he signed his new deal it would have been cool. l o l

Yea KT has a terrible injury record TBF.

And yea if we got Mcginn before we signed those 2 and before he signed his new deal it would have been cool. l o l

Can’t see either of them coming in, KT although decent wouldn’t necessarily improve on what we already have, and Psycho McGinn has committed himself to Villa, but keeping with the Scottish theme cos we all know we’re taking over the world 🤪🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿, a player I’d like to bring in is Billy Gilmour,

The lad is class, he’s currently at our friends in Brighton, de Zerbi rates him obviously and he’s not a bad judge at all, Gilmour is one of those who will shine brighter with better players, and he would be absolutely gleaming linking up again with Macca and with Szlobo,

Although not in the same class as Thiago, but he’s the same kind of mould, obviously younger and his vision and passing are very very good for such a young lad, he has a bright future for sure, that’s one I’d be looking at and I don’t think he’d cost too much either ??


YNWA

Can’t see either of them coming in, KT although decent wouldn’t necessarily improve on what we already have, and Psycho McGinn has committed himself to Villa, but keeping with the Scottish theme cos we all know we’re taking over the world 🤪🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿, a player I’d like to bring in is Billy Gilmour,

The lad is class, he’s currently at our friends in Brighton, de Zerbi rates him obviously and he’s not a bad judge at all, Gilmour is one of those who will shine brighter with better players, and he would be absolutely gleaming linking up again with Macca and with Szlobo,

Although not in the same class as Thiago, but he’s the same kind of mould, obviously younger and his vision and passing are very very good for such a young lad, he has a bright future for sure, that’s one I’d be looking at and I don’t think he’d cost too much either ??


YNWA

yea no chance of them coming, just my thoughts. l o l

Aye wee gilmour is cracking player. hopefully he has a good season at brighton, can only help scotland.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLc6vt4rSSb6mDO_aUSzbnQPOwUE_4Vptb

A Tactical History of Liverpool.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLc6vt4rSSb6mDO_aUSzbnQPOwUE_4Vptb

A Tactical History of Liverpool.

Awesome Billy, LFC history in yer face, I love it personally and a must watch for those who don’t know how we have evolved over the years, every fan of Liverpool should at least know a little of our history, in particular from Shanks onwards!!

YNWA

I think today proves clearly that if Trent isn’t in the side you can’t play with an inverted full back. We were so much better in the 2nd half with Gomez and Robbo playing as stereotypical full backs. Also our shape was so much better for pressing the ball.

I think today proves clearly that if Trent isn’t in the side you can’t play with an inverted full back. We were so much better in the 2nd half with Gomez and Robbo playing as stereotypical full backs. Also our shape was so much better for pressing the ball.

It was a truly stupid idea to think that Gomez could play the Trent role.

It was a truly stupid idea to think that Gomez could play the Trent role.

Didn't see the game but agree you don't even need to to know that isn't Gomez.

Really did we start the game like that?

Didn't see the game but agree you don't even need to to know that isn't Gomez.

Really did we start the game like that?

Went back to a traditional 4-3-3 in the second half.
Inverted fullback should be a role reserved for Trent.

Went back to a traditional 4-3-3 in the second half.
Inverted fullback should be a role reserved for Trent.

Even then I think it should be within reason. If it's every single time we have the ball then the opposition know what we're going to do, whereas if we mix it up a bit more then it might catch them off guard. And it's not like he can't be dangerous from the right wing. We've seen for years he is as good as anybody in world football playing that role.

The Villa game was interesting as he didn't play so much as an extra midfielder but instead more of a centre half when we had the ball, so I'm keen to see if that's how we use him in the future or once fit again he just starts to leg it back into the middle of the park every time we've got possession.