Tactics geeks of the world unite...

Of course tactics and systems matter (it's a bit daft to suggest they don't) and of course it's very naive to suggest that players don't understand them or what's required. However, what 'Plant and others are saying (forgive me if I'm putting words into your mouths lads) is that, a system and tactics will only take a team so far and no further...

What takes a team to the 'next level' is the quality of footballer playing in 'the system' in my opinion.

Put another way: Swansea (under Brendan) - not better than Liverpool (under Brendan). Why? Same system but better quality of players. If 'we' are truly ambitious and serious in our intent then 'we' need even more quality: end of.

Of course tactics and systems matter (it's a bit daft to suggest they don't) and of course it's very naive to suggest that players don't understand them or what's required. However, what 'Plant and others are saying (forgive me if I'm putting words into your mouths lads) is that, a system and tactics will only take a team so far and no further...

What takes a team to the 'next level' is the quality of footballer playing in 'the system' in my opinion.

Put another way: Swansea (under Brendan) - not better than Liverpool (under Brendan). Why? Same system but better quality of players. If 'we' are truly ambitious and serious in our intent then 'we' need even more quality: end of.

Yes I think thats what I think. Tactics will get a team so far. To go further, you need better players.


But also on the other issue, sometimes a player wont understand tactics. Yes he can follow the words. But its another matter when he's out on the pitch trying to apply it in the heat of the game. I think a player's football brain is actually part of his skillset. Some players are constantly looking around on the pitch (their necks must be in agony at the end of a match). Other players have no concept of this, and get the ball then make a rash pass or poor controlling movement. They are in some ways, "blind" in comparison.


Its players with good football brains that allow managers to develop their skills, and the overall performance of the team. Ultimately, we say that that player is a "good player".

Of course tactics and systems matter (it's a bit daft to suggest they don't) and of course it's very naive to suggest that players don't understand them or what's required. However, what 'Plant and others are saying (forgive me if I'm putting words into your mouths lads) is that, a system and tactics will only take a team so far and no further...

What takes a team to the 'next level' is the quality of footballer playing in 'the system' in my opinion.

Put another way: Swansea (under Brendan) - not better than Liverpool (under Brendan). Why? Same system but better quality of players. If 'we' are truly ambitious and serious in our intent then 'we' need even more quality: end of.

Is spot on.

However, to go back a bit, training now consists of more than just being out on the practice pitch, and tactics are tailored via coaching to individual players, utilising software such as prozone, or indeed the software the Rafa helped develop and used at conferences and seminars.

BR will say to a player: "Look, when he runs here, you run there" because in his analysis, a player may get dragged out of position often, leaving a hole for another player to run into.
Rafa was famed for telling his players where to go in certain situations, to within an inch, as Torres stated.
Gerrard stated that Rafa had made him a much better player and had probably prolonged his career.

Systems and tactics are not the be all and end all, but attention to detail which may give an edge of only 1 or 2% can be the difference in a match, and that's why they are used.

To be fair it also helped that we had a lot of top players under Rafa too. Gerrard at his peak, Hyypia, Hamann, Carra, Masch, Alonso, Torres, Reina. Sadly we could never get a strong enough squad or the one or two extra top quality players to finish the job.

Obviously tactics make a difference , but for me I think 11 great players with average tactics will more often than not beat 11 average players with great tactics.

I think this is shown in the economics of the game.


World's top manager? `12m or so pa.


World's top single player? 85m transfer fee.
Wages of top 11 players vs the management team? Huge difference.


I think top players go onto the pitch with their own level of tactics.

I agree that it's possible to 'coach' creativity out of players and some of the dinosaurs doing this are still in top jobs.  The likes of big Sam, Hodgson, Pulis et al have their own way of playing the game and to an extent they manage to achieve some results.  They will never change how they coach regardless of the quality of the players at their disposal as it's served them well for decades. 

Hodgson would turn the Brazil or Dutch team of the 70's into a rigid 442 set up and have apoplexy if god forbid a player showed a bit of flair and broke free of his 2 banks of 4 

Those using the analogy of musicians and actors to prove the creative point, well they still need a conductor/director to lead them 

I agree that it's possible to 'coach' creativity out of players and some of the dinosaurs doing this are still in top jobs.  The likes of big Sam, Hodgson, Pulis et al have their own way of playing the game and to an extent they manage to achieve some results.  They will never change how they coach regardless of the quality of the players at their disposal as it's served them well for decades. 

Hodgson would turn the Brazil or Dutch team of the 70's into a rigid 442 set up and have apoplexy if god forbid a player showed a bit of flair and broke free of his 2 banks of 4 

Those using the analogy of musicians and actors to prove the creative point, well they still need a conductor/director to lead them 

Hodgson is an absolute clown. 3 players he pissed off more than anybody were Agger, Reina and Torres. He complained that Rafa had a huge team and he didnt "have a clue what most of them did". So he promptly sacked them. Then the players found that the tactical scouting was pretty  non-existent.


Hodgon's advice to Torres was sh*t like "rough him up a bit". The guy is an absolute moron when working with top players. But he's effective in keeping sh*t teams in the top flight. F**k I hate him tho...


_____________


I think the FA's stupidity is shown by places like ST George's Park. To me, that all looks like one glorified sports science centre. Now sports science is great. But I dont think its the big thing for football. I mean, we're already pretty fit.


Much better would be to have the number of FIFA A and B coaches matching German and Spanish level. (I cant remember which one had the highest proportion of each, but the differences with England are utterly incredbile, as I recall).


The pathological liars at the FA say that "England cant afford the coaches". What a load of sh*te...
[size=78%]_______________[/size]


I remember when I was a kid, bringing the ball out of defence. The "coach" yelled "dont play football with it". So I turned round, looked at him, picked it up and started doing a basketball dribble. Ofcourse he didnt like that.


10 minutes later, I was coming away from the box, and he shouted it again. So I dribbled past one of his little favourites and went running up the field. As I was coming to the other box, I shouted "so shall I play rugby with it now then?"


OK I was taking the piss. But F**k me, we used to have some whoppers as "coaches"..

I remember Mark Lawrenson saying that Sir Bob never gave them any tactics.11 good footballers should know their job.The will to win should outweigh everything else

Hello where did i say systems & tactics are nonsense?

No i didn't say that as i don't think that ffs.

What i said was formations are more important to defenders than they are to attackers.
Good attackers do there thing is what i said so don't make out i was saying something i wasn't thanx.

I said this is football not Chess i don't want to watch Chess it's boring.

Hello where did i say systems & tactics are nonsense?

To be fair you didn't say systems and tactics were "nonsense" andy... all you said was that "this is 90% bullshit". I'm sure there's a difference. 

What i said was formations are more important to defenders than they are to attackers.

Again, to be fair, that's what you said. You also said "99% of footballers couldn't understand 99% of any of this"... which doesn't augur well for us in defence: scary or what? 

To be fair you didn't say systems and tactics were "nonsense" andy... all you said was that "this is 90% bullshit". I'm sure there's a difference.

I quite like the look of the 3-4-1-2 system we have been employing lately.  A few positive things that it does for us are:

- Allows all three of Sturridge, Suarez, and Coutinho (although currently out of the side injured) to play centrally in attack and influence the game to their maximum ability
- Relieves our fullbacks of some of their defensive responsibilities and allows them to push forward more and provide width to our attacks
- Allows BR to put our 11 best players on the field in roles that they are comfortable with

Since we have adopted this new style, I have noticed a few things that we need to improve on in order to win games consistently.  There are 3 primary ways that teams may play against us:

- High pressing game
- Defend deep and hit on the break
- Funnel our play out wide and apply defensive pressure in the wide areas (this is how Sunderland tried to defend against us)

I think that our new formation will actually be most effective against teams who attempt to play a high pressing game.  When we have Johno back, our ability to break at pace down either flank through Johno/Enrique, the ability of Moses to carry the ball forward at pace on the counter, and the ability of Sturridge/Suarez to get in behind defenders and latch onto long balls played into the channels gives us a number of ways that we can threaten teams who push too far up the pitch against us. 

Against teams who defend deep against us, it will be important for us for Coutinho to click with the burgeoning Suarez/Sturridge partnership.  Against teams who park the bus and play for a point, it will be critical for us to have a few players who can unlock a defense with a bit of creativity.  Coutinho's knack for doing the unexpected will be important, but it will also be important for Studge and Suarez to be on the same page as him. 

Finally, if/when we come up against teams who try to do as Sunderland did and funnel us wide and isolate our RCB/RWB or LCB/LWB against their two traditional wide players, it will be important for us to have a sweeper who is comfortable with the ball at his feet and can carry the ball forward out of defense on the dribble.  Skrtel did this a few times against Sunderland to decent affect, and he also did it a time or two against Palace.  Every time he has done it though, we have been able to completely bypass the 1st level of defense and move straight into an attacking move because the defenders who are stationed in the middle of the field already have marks (Gerrard/Lucas/Hendo) that they cannot leave which gives our sweeper all the time/space in the world to look up and pick a pass.  Step forward Danny Agger.  I think that Dagger's composure and ability on the ball will give us exactly what we need in this position. 

I think when we do get Coutinho, Agger, and Johno all back into the side we will be able to utilize the new 3-4-1-2 to devastating effect!!  Hopefully we can continue to win our games against Newcastle and West Brom while we iron out the few remaining wrinkles in the system and head into the Arsenal game in top form!  That game is looking more and more like it could be a table topping clash!!

I must admit I'm not a massive fan myself and don't see Rodgers persisting with it for too long however, as always the end justifies the means and we're winning so it's all good.


Excellent analysis of the formation in this article


[font=.HelveticaNeueUI]http://www.footyplace.com/features/liverpool-lose-midfield-control-1007269434?[/font]
[font=.HelveticaNeueUI][/size][/font]
[font=.HelveticaNeueUI][/size][/font]

I must admit I'm not a massive fan myself and don't see Rodgers persisting with it for too long however, as always the end justifies the means and we're winning so it's all good.

Excellent analysis of the formation in this article

[font=.HelveticaNeueUI]http://www.footyplace.com/features/liverpool-lose-midfield-control-1007269434?[/font]
[font=.HelveticaNeueUI][/size][/font]
[font=.HelveticaNeueUI][/size][/font]

Good article, but I disagree with the authors premise that we will likely abandon the 3 CB's when Johno returns to fitness.  The current formation allows our best players to play in their best positions.  If we were to revert back to a 4-3-3 or a 4-2-3-1 then we would have to deploy one (or more) of Suarez/Sturridge/Coutinho out wide where they will have more defensive responsibilities and will not be able to have a maximum impact on the attacking side of the game.  To me, it doesn't make sense to revert back to a back 4 when the current system is working and will continue to improve with the return of Johno and Coutinho to the lineup.  Just my 2 cents though...

I don't think we we will stick with it long term myself. From box to box our play has been functional at best since we adopted this set up however, the two boys up front have been able to make things happen all by themselves so that is a definite strength. But I think we will revert once Jonno is back and Luis and Sturridge are plenty versatile enough to play as a narrow left or right or Luis can play the 10 role with Coutinho on the left.

There is a reason that very few teams play 3-5-2 and we would get found out defensively if we persist with it against the better sides in this division.

I must admit I'm not a massive fan myself and don't see Rodgers persisting with it for too long however, as always the end justifies the means and we're winning so it's all good.


Excellent analysis of the formation in this article


[font=.HelveticaNeueUI]http://www.footyplace.com/features/liverpool-lose-midfield-control-1007269434?[/font]

Interesting article. The author talks about us losing territorial advantage with this system but IMO we lost a lot more when we sat back with the 4-4-2 system earlier on in the season. And for me this comes back to the 'mentality' of what I think is an incompatible central two of Lucas and Gerrard. Leaving that aside though, I have never been a fan of playing 3 at the back but like harrydunn08 says, this formation allows us to play to our players strengths in their respective positions.


It was interesting to read that having the 3 at the back diminishes the options for Gerrard & co ahead. If the author is right, regarding Rodgers bemoaning this point, as a failing to control the game, then he could have tinkered this midway through the second half and gone back to a flat 4, seeing as we were 3-0 up.


It's a bit of a jigsaw puzzle really and I thought we looked fairly comfortable against Palace but I could see better teams exploiting this and giving us problems further on down the track.


I'd love to get an insight in to Rodgers's thinking about this apparent conundrum - anyone know him? 

I don't think we we will stick with it long term myself. From box to box our play has been functional at best since we adopted this set up however, the two boys up front have been able to make things happen all by themselves so that is a definite strength. But I think we will revert once Jonno is back and Luis and Sturridge are plenty versatile enough to play as a narrow left or right or Luis can play the 10 role with Coutinho on the left.

There is a reason that very few teams play 3-5-2 and we would get found out defensively if we persist with it against the better sides in this division.

Totally agree with this mate. I think the return of Coutinho and Johnson after the international break will see a return of the 4-4-2/4-3-3.

Personally I hope we go for the 4-3-3 because not only does it get all our best players on the pitch, it gets them playing in their correct positions rather than shoehorning them in, while allowing the manager to make significant substitutions when called for rather than like for like ones.

As far as I can see the only real problem with playing four at the back is it forces Brendan to make a hard decision over who gets the two CB positions. For what it's worth I would go for Toure and Sakho and see how we go.

The way I would like to see us set up is :-

                                  Mignolet

Johnson              Toure          Sakho              Enrique

                Henderson     Gerrard      Lucas

                               Coutinho
                   Suarez              Sturridge

Getting our width from our fullbacks and with Henderson and Gerrard breaking forward from midfield. Coutinho offering close support to our forwards and getting in and around the box as much as possible.

I think that's how we'll line up, s@int.

Just hope Coutinho is back ASAP. Moses, he hasn't done poorly, but he doesn't look right in that position. Palace would of been a good game to get Moses on the right, and play Luis Alberto central.

Thankfully for the most part our injuries haven't cost us and it poses a difficult scenario for the boss to pick his best team, especially at the back.

While personally I'd go for Kolo and Sakho, I think it's very tough to drop Skrtel. He's been terrific.

And with Hendo playing well, does he stick to a 2-1 midfield (presumably Gerrard and Lucas with Coutinho in front) or a 3-1 (Hendp, Gerrard and Lucas behind Coutinho) midfield and drop his width and rely on the fullbacks a bit more?

All good problems to have. Options and competition are something we rarely have.

End of the day I just can't wait to see the SAS and Coutinho linking up.

In truth, once Coutinho is back there are a bunch of options with these players and particularly with the front.


You could play



                                 Suarez




     Moses                 Coutinho             Sturridge








                                Sturridge


     Coutinho              Suarez               Moses






                                 Sturridge


       Suarez               Coutinho           Moses




With your three behind the frontmen all looking play quite narrow and given the freedom to interchange it's creates all sorts of problems for the opposition, particularly as neither Suarez or Sturridge is a real number 9, both players like to drop off, drift wide, show feet and run at players and both players are intelligent with excellent movement. Throw in the jitterbug play of Coutinho and the power and pace of Moses and it really is quite a threat, in fact it's as good as anything in the league if they're all fit and firing.


We're just not quite there in other areas unfortunately!

The way I would like to see us set up is :-

                                  Mignolet

Johnson              Toure          Sakho              Enrique

                Henderson     Gerrard      Lucas

                               Coutinho
                   Suarez              Sturridge

While I'm a big fan of 3 at the back Saint I really like this as well as it gets all our best players in there best positions as well. Wiht those three in midfield you can have one of Lucas ot Gerrard sitting while the other joins Hendo more further forward and it should also help with the mobility issue in there.

The full backs have shown that they will get forward in whatever formation they are played in so should provide the neccesary width and a solid looking CB back pair as well, although I'd possibly stick with Skrtel and Sakho as I think Skrtel's work has been excellent since he got back in the side.

While I'm a big fan of 3 at the back Saint I really like this as well as it gets all our best players in there best positions as well. Wiht those three in midfield you can have one of Lucas ot Gerrard sitting while the other joins Hendo more further forward and it should also help with the mobility issue in there.

The full backs have shown that they will get forward in whatever formation they are played in so should provide the neccesary width and a solid looking CB back pair as well, although I'd possibly stick with Skrtel and Sakho as I think Skrtel's work has been excellent since he got back in the side.

I'm not so sure about that set up myself, looks great when we have the ball and the full backs are pushing on BUTwhat does it look like when lose the ball? If it stays as per Saints diagram then we would be in trouble with 2 on 1s in wide areas. So would you potentially be asking Suarez and Sturridge to drop into wide defensive positions?

Actually think having Coutinho back would make the 3-5-2 more solid defensively.  He has tracked back and lived up to his defensive responsibilities in what we've seen of him this season, something I haven't seen much of from Moses.

I'm not so sure about that set up myself, looks great when we have the ball and the full backs are pushing on BUTwhat does it look like when lose the ball? If it stays as per Saints diagram then we would be in trouble with 2 on 1s in wide areas. So would you potentially be asking Suarez and Sturridge to drop into wide defensive positions?

While I understand your point mate, surely that's where the defensive midfielders come in? Lucas moves across to cover while Gerrard and Henderson shuffle back( run back in Henderson's case ) to take up the central position, in a similar fashion to the way Masch always moved out to the wide areas while the less mobile Alonso took up the central position.

Certainly I would not be expecting SAS to drop back but with Lucas, Gerrard AND Henderson I don't really see much of a problem with cover.

I think you got a little spoiled with Kuyt but most wide players (Moses, Riera, Downing etc) don't really track back that willingly anyway. In fact when you think of Dossena some of our fullbacks haven't been too willing to track back either!

I think 3 at the back will work perfect when coutinho and johnson are back as some of you have said but my back 3 would be Kolo as RCB, Sakho as CB, and Agger as LCB. out of them i would rotate Kolo and Skrtel depending on who we play, if we are playing a physical side say likes of Stoke, west ham, Everton teams who dont play great passing football and just lump it in the box to their loan striker then Skrtel offers that rock like cover.  If we are playing teams like Spurs, Arsenal, Mancs (both) Chelsea I would put Kolo in there for his calmness under pressure and ability to read the game more than Martin.  I still think we will loose Skrtel in Jan or maybe this summer to a russian side or Napoli as we just cant have that many CBs in one team not forgetting young Ilori.