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      Tactics geeks of the world unite...

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      Paisleydalglish
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #30: Nov 09, 2012 07:05:14 am
      Fully agree Si

      That's what I was saying, Gerrard needs to be higher up the pitch, he is the best most natural finisher at the club so needs to be in the parts of the pitch where he can get in areas to use that.. I'd like to see him in the right of the front 3 as well, especially when Lucas is back as then you can have

          Lucas  Sahin

              Allen

      As the midfield 3..

      Completely agree that Shelvey and Suso need to be used as the point in the middle, Suso came on yesterday against Anshi more centrally as the game stretched and had a far bigger impact on the game, for those two to develop ( Jonjo and Suso) they need to learn from the more experienced heads and come on in games rather than try to dictate them from the off.. Not when we have the likes of Allen, Lucas, Sahin and Gerrard in there already.

      Downing has his limits, confidence belief and ability (  :D ) but he showed last night also that he has the defensive awareness to help the full backs which we have lacked in recent games and we need to stop looking like a soft touch at the back.


      Good post though Si, cheers for getting involved
      srslfc
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #31: Nov 09, 2012 11:00:49 am
      Downing is an interesting one you raise PD and I see your point in him giving a little more defensivley in certain games than Sterling or Suso might in the wide posititions.

      But I feel he could really make something of his LFC career as a LB in Brendan's system. I first herad the idea floated by Niel Atkinson on The Anfield Wrap, at least I'm pretty sure it was him, as an attacking full back in a Rodgers system and then lo and behold we see the boss use him like that a couple of times.

      Brendan likes his full backs to push high up the pitch and see plenty of the ball and with us having the majority of possession in many of our games it makes sense to have a full back who is comfortable on the ball and can get forward. Also our full backs under Brendan are our main source of width and with Sterling most likely to cut inside then Downing will stay wide as we've seen before when he's played on the left.

      Now the key to this for me again is Lucas as I'm not sure our midfield as it stands is compact or 'defensive' enough if you like to cover if we had Johnson and Downing as the full backs but add Lucas in with Allen and we have a very solid midfield with Lucas having the positional awareness and ability to slot in to cover any gaps left by the FB.

      Skrtel       Agger

      Johnson                         Downing

         Lucas
               
                   Allen

      In this formation when the FB get forward Lucas just moves back and Skrtel and Agger move over to almost form a three.

      Skrtel        Lucas         Agger

      Allen

      Johnson                      Shelvey/Suso                      Downing

      Still looks solid at the back with plenty of options going forward and we still have Allen to feed the balls through to the attacking  players.

      It gives us more balance than having Glen on the left as both players are now on their natural side and also I feel Downing as mre ability to play how Brendan wants in FB than Enrique who is really just a player who runs down the line and puts a ball in the box. I knwo Stewert has been accused of crossing too much as well but he does have a bit more about him than Jose and I feel could really be coached into this role.

      He aslo doesn't need to feel left out of the attack as Geln has shown that a FB in  Rodgers system can be the most effective attacker at times.
      Paisleydalglish
      • Guest
      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #32: Nov 09, 2012 11:08:23 am
      Interesting Si


      I was thinking the other day as well that the formation he used is the second half against Everton could be a useful one at times.. It would overlap with the point of Downing at full back..
      If we went 3 CBS he could use Downing and Johnson and even Enrique and Henderson as Wing backs..

      It could be a 3-5-2



                    Reina

          Coates Skrtel Agger

      Johnson                Downing

                 Lucas Allen

                   Gerrard

           Suarez        Sterling


      Or if he wanted to stay as a 3 up top a 3-4-3



                  Reina

        Coates Skrtel Agger


      Johnson             Downing
              Allen    Lucas


      Gerrard               Sterling
                   Suarez


      At the back in both you have ball playing CBS to bring it out ( Agger and Coates) you have width in the wing backs plus plenty supporting Luis..

      Wisdom and Kelly could be introduced to cb in a 3 as well and you have natural cover for the wing backs in Enrique and Henderson..

      It also allows Suso and Shelvey to play more as impact subs and centrally to affect games and develop.
      In the option with 2 up top in certain games you could just have Suarez up and one off him ( Gerrard or Suso) and drop an extra body into midfield.


      Lots of options even with a thin squad. I hope BR will show he is willing to adapt
      FATKOPITE10
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #33: Nov 09, 2012 11:12:30 am
      I think this is the system that should be used for games like Sunday, at home I think 4-3-3 or 4-3-2-1 would be fine. It is encouraging to see the gaffer be flexible. As long as we don't play a pure three at the back then I'm quite happy.
      srslfc
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #34: Nov 09, 2012 11:15:46 am
      A 3-5-2 or 3-4-3 is definitely an option as well using by adding Coates into the mix and would give us a little more defensively against the stronger attacking sides but against the majority of teams I'd still like to see him go with a 4-3-3 witht he players I mentioned at least to see how it works

      Reina

      Johnson    Skrtel    Agger    Downing

      Lucas
                   Allen

      Shelvey/Suso

      Gerrard   Suarez   Sterling

      Which would then become, when attacking

      Renia

      Skrtel        Lucas         Agger

      Allen

      Johnson                      Shelvey/Suso                      Downing

                 
             Gerrard   Suarez   Sterling
      Paisleydalglish
      • Guest
      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #35: Nov 09, 2012 11:22:27 am
      Yeah definitely mate, almost using Lucas as a modern day sweeper...

      The last thing we can become though is predictable, at the top level you need to have adaptability... At the minute teams know they can press us high and get two on one against our full backs to force mistakes..
      Look where goals are coming against us..

      We need to show that we can do different things and not be predictable
      George Lucas
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #36: Nov 09, 2012 03:42:12 pm
      Great posts and debate from both of you guys - very good read , cheers guys
      reddebs
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #37: Nov 11, 2012 09:51:36 am
      To add to PD's and Si's excellent analysis, I think the reason Stevie is playing so deep is to give a bit of protection to Allen.

      Allen isn't a natural DM, he's used to playing higher up, dictating play and he's being asked to do a difficult job, with little experience around him.

      Stevie gives that, so I fully expect things to change when Lucas is back.

      srslfc
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #38: Nov 11, 2012 11:09:53 am
      To add to PD's and Si's excellent analysis, I think the reason Stevie is playing so deep is to give a bit of protection to Allen.

      Allen isn't a natural DM, he's used to playing higher up, dictating play and he's being asked to do a difficult job, with little experience around him.

      Stevie gives that, so I fully expect things to change when Lucas is back.



      Fully agree Debs.

      I feel that Brendan trusts Stevie in there and am hoping once Lucas gets back the captain will become the attacker the boss has described him as.
      Paisleydalglish
      • Guest
      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #39: Nov 11, 2012 04:03:15 pm
      Gone 3 at the back today at the bridge

      Looking forward to see how it works tactically

      First look Carra is central to Agger and Skrtel



                     Jones
       

            Skrtel Carra Agger

      Wisdom                    Enrique

               Allen      Gerrard

                      Sahin


                             Sterling

                 Suarez
      George Lucas
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      • JFT96
      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #40: Nov 11, 2012 04:05:21 pm
      Gone 3 at the back today at the bridge

      Looking forward to see how it works tactically

      First look Carra is central Agger and Skrtel

      And Gerrard supporting higher up the pitch
      Paisleydalglish
      • Guest
      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #41: Nov 11, 2012 04:06:37 pm
      And Gerrard supporting higher up the pitch

      Looks like Gerrard and Sahin switching early on

      When one goes the other sits
      srslfc
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #42: Nov 11, 2012 04:35:31 pm
      Looks like a 1-2 in the middle now as Brendan seemed to be shouting for a while back.
      Paisleydalglish
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #43: Dec 06, 2012 08:06:57 am
      I have no issue with the style of play, in fact i very much enjoy that way of the game being played, once it really kicks in and if Brendan gets a couple of new faces in the group it may well lead to another successful part of our history..

      However...

      I dont get how its such a big change for these players to take on, at least in technical terms, maybe its more a mental thing, its essentially press high, pass the ball sharply, keep possesion of the ball and therefore the game..
      The likes of Pepe, Glen, Danny, Jose, Lucas, Allen, Henderson, Gerrard, Sahin, Cole, Borini, Suso, Sterling, Suarez etc etc all have qualities to allow them to play this type of game, maybe each of them dont have everyone but they all are top quality players who can pass a ball, and press a game.. So I personally would have expected quicker results in the way we are playing..
      Like i say maybe its a mental thing, maybe the mentality to pass short and sharp is being drilled into them rather than look long, however you can see even in Carra's game that he is looking shorter far more often so its sinking in..






      Now this is how i feel he is trying to get us to play, he wants the CBs to be the start of attacks when we go forward by dropping wide, (Dotted lines) and the full backs to push forward to create width, therefore making the front 3 more forwards than one forward and two wingers, Suarez has a free role but is the one who should join right up the middle, Stevie would be to add another body in the box and Lucas and Allen dictate the play. Lucas is key when we dont have the ball as he essentially becomes a modern day sweeper and makes a 3 at the back (Dotted line) when the full backs go forward.

      When we dont have the ball then the cbs become narrow and the full backs drop in, the wide forwrads also have a responsibility to drop deeper to win the ball back, Stevie and Allen press in midfield to get the ball back before it gets to Lucas and onto the cbs..

      What we are lacking though is probably two things.. Someone to take the responsibility from just Luis scoring and a better wide option than with all due respect Enrique..
      To make it work its essential we press from the top as soon as we lose the ball, have player able to do that job, all the wide players in the system need to be quick and agile, athletes if you will.. They need to get back and forward very quickly.. Now Johnson can do this, i believe Enrique can at full back, especially now Lucas is fit as he will have natural cover to his right, Sterling can.. And i beleive Suarez could out wide, or another new player, someone who could chip in with goals..

      This goes back to my if we only sign one player in January theory











      The right player could make such a difference, also keeping Lucas fit, he is essential to the system.... It then allows the likes of Suso, Wisdom to develop as subs/rotation... And us to make better use of the squad we have..

      I digress...


      The point im making though is that i dont think the players we have should be finding it a problem to play the way the manager wants them to, but we are maybe 1-2 players away from making it to something thats does more than merely function..

      Ideally we need a wide forward or central striker in January, both would be nice to give Brendan options, then going forward to the summer we could do with a natural cover for Lucas (I like Wanyama) a new cb/lb for the squad, an additional wide forward and a replacement in the squad for Sahin... Then let the kids develop around them and the managers system..



      We do need patience, im not fully happy with the first 6 months under Brendan, but thats having the high standards i have for this club, but i do see that we will get there and sooner rather than later..




      http://www.lfcreds.com/reds/index.php/topic,44030.0.html

      This i found interesting that Solodee posted

      LFC TOP 3 Players for all aspects of the game as at 3rd December 2012

      Tackles
      - J. Allen (39 Tackles)
      - S. Gerrard (37 Tackles)
      - G. Johnson (32 Tackles)

      Effective Clearances
      - M. Skrtel (55)
      - D. Agger (33)
      - G. Johnson (26)

      Interceptions
      - J. Allen (35)
      - D. Agger (24)
      - M. Skrtel (23)

      Accurate Long Balls
      - S. Gerrard (160 passes)
      - J. Allen (76 passes)
      - J. Reina (61 passes)

      Duels won
      - R. Sterling (103)
      - L. Suarez (101)
      - G. Johnson (90)

      On-Targer Attempts
      - L. Suarez (26 shots)
      - J. Shelvey (11 shots)
      - S. Gerrard (8 Shots)

      Goal Attempts
      - L. Suarez (89 shots)
      - S. Gerrard (35 shots)
      - G. Johnson (24 shots)

      Accurate Forward Passes
      - S. Gerrard (513 passes)
      - J. Allen (408 passes)
      - L. Suarez (338 passes)

      Goal Assists
      - S. Gerrard; L. Suarez; Jose Enrique (all 2 Assists each)

      Subbed Off
      - N. Sahin (7 times)
      - Suso (6 times)
      - F. Borini (4 times)

      Fouls suffered
      - R. Sterling (33)
      - L. Suarez (29)
      - J. Allen (19)

      Fouls committed
      - L. Suarez (28)
      - R. Sterling (24)
      - J. Allen (18)

      Crosses
      - S. Gerrard (114)
      - G. Johnson (37)
      - R. Sterling (32)

      Accurate Passes
      - J. Allen (918)
      - S. Gerrard (826)
      - D. Agger (647)

      Subbed on
      - J. Shelvey (8 )
      - J. Henderson (6)
      - J. Carragher (5)

      There you have it

      In terms of the system

      Effective clearences

      Skrtel 55
      Agger 33

      we're missing Lucas as the ball is coming on to the cbs too much

      but

      Agger is 3rd on accurate passes with 647 so Agger as we would all expect is adapting better than Skrtel as Danny gets it fromthe keeper more often and doesnt just clear his lines following his interceptions.

      Interceptions also indicates we miss lucas as the 3 highest are Allen/Agger and Skrtel, there is no natural blocker for them, it also indictaes we need to be more effective pressing in the final 3rd..

      Fouls committed on the top two are Suarez and Sterling, our two players who commit the opposition, we need more people to do that.

      Goals attempts, Suarez 89, Gerrrard 35,Johnson 24, tells us we need more people taking chances in the final 3rd but that Glen is adapting well to his need to get forward and join the attack.
      However on terget attempts second is Shelvey who has hardly appeared... Need to improve



      Lastly on Gerrard

      2nd in tackles
      1st in accurate long balls
      3rd in on target attempts
      2nd in goals attempts
      1st (joint) in assists
      1st in accurate forward passes
      1st in crosses
      2nd in accurate passes

      Doesnt look bad on paper, maybe our expectations on him are too high, stat wise he has been good
      FATKOPITE10
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #44: Dec 06, 2012 11:51:16 am
      I have no issue with the style of play, in fact i very much enjoy that way of the game being played, once it really kicks in and if Brendan gets a couple of new faces in the group it may well lead to another successful part of our history..

      However...

      I dont get how its such a big change for these players to take on, at least in technical terms, maybe its more a mental thing, its essentially press high, pass the ball sharply, keep possesion of the ball and therefore the game..
      The likes of Pepe, Glen, Danny, Jose, Lucas, Allen, Henderson, Gerrard, Sahin, Cole, Borini, Suso, Sterling, Suarez etc etc all have qualities to allow them to play this type of game, maybe each of them dont have everyone but they all are top quality players who can pass a ball, and press a game.. So I personally would have expected quicker results in the way we are playing..
      Like i say maybe its a mental thing, maybe the mentality to pass short and sharp is being drilled into them rather than look long, however you can see even in Carra's game that he is looking shorter far more often so its sinking in..






      Now this is how i feel he is trying to get us to play, he wants the CBs to be the start of attacks when we go forward by dropping wide, (Dotted lines) and the full backs to push forward to create width, therefore making the front 3 more forwards than one forward and two wingers, Suarez has a free role but is the one who should join right up the middle, Stevie would be to add another body in the box and Lucas and Allen dictate the play. Lucas is key when we dont have the ball as he essentially becomes a modern day sweeper and makes a 3 at the back (Dotted line) when the full backs go forward.

      When we dont have the ball then the cbs become narrow and the full backs drop in, the wide forwrads also have a responsibility to drop deeper to win the ball back, Stevie and Allen press in midfield to get the ball back before it gets to Lucas and onto the cbs..

      What we are lacking though is probably two things.. Someone to take the responsibility from just Luis scoring and a better wide option than with all due respect Enrique..
      To make it work its essential we press from the top as soon as we lose the ball, have player able to do that job, all the wide players in the system need to be quick and agile, athletes if you will.. They need to get back and forward very quickly.. Now Johnson can do this, i believe Enrique can at full back, especially now Lucas is fit as he will have natural cover to his right, Sterling can.. And i beleive Suarez could out wide, or another new player, someone who could chip in with goals..

      This goes back to my if we only sign one player in January theory











      The right player could make such a difference, also keeping Lucas fit, he is essential to the system.... It then allows the likes of Suso, Wisdom to develop as subs/rotation... And us to make better use of the squad we have..

      I digress...


      The point im making though is that i dont think the players we have should be finding it a problem to play the way the manager wants them to, but we are maybe 1-2 players away from making it to something thats does more than merely function..

      Ideally we need a wide forward or central striker in January, both would be nice to give Brendan options, then going forward to the summer we could do with a natural cover for Lucas (I like Wanyama) a new cb/lb for the squad, an additional wide forward and a replacement in the squad for Sahin... Then let the kids develop around them and the managers system..



      We do need patience, im not fully happy with the first 6 months under Brendan, but thats having the high standards i have for this club, but i do see that we will get there and sooner rather than later..




      http://www.lfcreds.com/reds/index.php/topic,44030.0.html

      This i found interesting that Solodee posted

      LFC TOP 3 Players for all aspects of the game as at 3rd December 2012

      Tackles
      - J. Allen (39 Tackles)
      - S. Gerrard (37 Tackles)
      - G. Johnson (32 Tackles)

      Effective Clearances
      - M. Skrtel (55)
      - D. Agger (33)
      - G. Johnson (26)

      Interceptions
      - J. Allen (35)
      - D. Agger (24)
      - M. Skrtel (23)

      Accurate Long Balls
      - S. Gerrard (160 passes)
      - J. Allen (76 passes)
      - J. Reina (61 passes)

      Duels won
      - R. Sterling (103)
      - L. Suarez (101)
      - G. Johnson (90)

      On-Targer Attempts
      - L. Suarez (26 shots)
      - J. Shelvey (11 shots)
      - S. Gerrard (8 Shots)

      Goal Attempts
      - L. Suarez (89 shots)
      - S. Gerrard (35 shots)
      - G. Johnson (24 shots)

      Accurate Forward Passes
      - S. Gerrard (513 passes)
      - J. Allen (408 passes)
      - L. Suarez (338 passes)

      Goal Assists
      - S. Gerrard; L. Suarez; Jose Enrique (all 2 Assists each)

      Subbed Off
      - N. Sahin (7 times)
      - Suso (6 times)
      - F. Borini (4 times)

      Fouls suffered
      - R. Sterling (33)
      - L. Suarez (29)
      - J. Allen (19)

      Fouls committed
      - L. Suarez (28)
      - R. Sterling (24)
      - J. Allen (18)

      Crosses
      - S. Gerrard (114)
      - G. Johnson (37)
      - R. Sterling (32)

      Accurate Passes
      - J. Allen (918)
      - S. Gerrard (826)
      - D. Agger (647)

      Subbed on
      - J. Shelvey (8 )
      - J. Henderson (6)
      - J. Carragher (5)

      There you have it

      In terms of the system

      Effective clearences

      Skrtel 55
      Agger 33

      we're missing Lucas as the ball is coming on to the cbs too much

      but

      Agger is 3rd on accurate passes with 647 so Agger as we would all expect is adapting better than Skrtel as Danny gets it fromthe keeper more often and doesnt just clear his lines following his interceptions.

      Interceptions also indicates we miss lucas as the 3 highest are Allen/Agger and Skrtel, there is no natural blocker for them, it also indictaes we need to be more effective pressing in the final 3rd..

      Fouls committed on the top two are Suarez and Sterling, our two players who commit the opposition, we need more people to do that.

      Goals attempts, Suarez 89, Gerrrard 35,Johnson 24, tells us we need more people taking chances in the final 3rd but that Glen is adapting well to his need to get forward and join the attack.
      However on terget attempts second is Shelvey who has hardly appeared... Need to improve



      Lastly on Gerrard

      2nd in tackles
      1st in accurate long balls
      3rd in on target attempts
      2nd in goals attempts
      1st (joint) in assists
      1st in accurate forward passes
      1st in crosses
      2nd in accurate passes

      Doesnt look bad on paper, maybe our expectations on him are too high, stat wise he has been good

      The modern obsession with stats is good up to a point but there is still a strong case for following what your eyes see. At the moment UEFA have created a good chance statistic which is pretty unreliable as a good chance for example to a striker who be harder for a centre back for example. The way to go is defo the way the team was set up against Southanpton, where we played higher up the pitch, with the odd tweek and a greater quality of player in the final third.
      Paisleydalglish
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #45: Dec 06, 2012 11:53:44 am
      The modern obsession with stats is good up to a point but there is still a strong case for following what your eyes see. At the moment UEFA have created a good chance statistic which is pretty unreliable as a good chance for example to a striker who be harder for a centre back for example. The way to go is defo the way the team was set up against Southanpton, where we played higher up the pitch, with the odd tweek and a greater quality of player in the final third.

      Oh I agree mate, it was just surprising as with the naked eye Stevie has been average for the most part this year..
      Just surprised how his "stats" stacked up in that report
      TheRedMosquito
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #46: Dec 06, 2012 02:59:46 pm
      Oh I agree mate, it was just surprising as with the naked eye Stevie has been average for the most part this year..
      Just surprised how his "stats" stacked up in that report

      Agree. One thing to consider with Stevie and his goal attempts is how many are not even in the right time zone, and how many get blocked. He has to lead the team in shots blocked by a defender.
      srslfc
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #47: Dec 07, 2012 10:19:26 am
      Great post above PD.

      Just to add to we now feel that with Lucas back, and considering his good form of late, Brendan will start to play Enrique at LB and have Glen in his more natural position?

      I think it is ideal as even when Jose has been playing ahead of Downing at LB he has done great work tracking back and shows he can quite capably hold the left side and with Lucas there to fill in when the full backs go forward to me it is what Brendan is looking for in these postions.


      Johnson  Skrtel  Agger  Enrique

      Lucas

      becomes

      Skrtel          Agger

      Lucas

      Johnson                                    Enrique


      Great balance both in attack and defense as Agger and Skrtel on their natural sides for defending with Lucas having the ability to drop in and cover runners.

      Also gets Glen on his natural attacking side, as although I think playing LB brings the best out of the defensive side of his game he is even better goinbg forward on the right.

      It also allows us to play a natural forward alongside Suarez on the left. As good as Enrique has been I feel he doesn't have the full attacking instincts to make the very best of the position and havinf Sterling there with Suso, Gerrard on the right is making the best of the players available.

      Like has been said many times Lucas is the key to getting the best out of the system.
      « Last Edit: Dec 07, 2012 11:19:55 am by srslfc »
      waltonl4
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #48: Dec 07, 2012 08:01:10 pm
      Anyone suggested Lucas play alongside Agger or Skrtyl like Mascherano.It could work at home.
      MIRO
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #49: Dec 07, 2012 08:37:46 pm
      Pace.

      Playing from the back.
      Pass and move the old way. All looking good.  Barca do it to perfection.

      Pace.
      We need to break with lightning speed and need the players up front to do that.

      We need the UNpredictability. The options. The ability if we are being pushed up on we can play the counter attack game and the opposition know it.

      Paisleydalglish
      • Guest
      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #50: Dec 07, 2012 10:27:54 pm
      Anyone suggested Lucas play alongside Agger or Skrtyl like Mascherano.It could work at home.

      Dont think it could work in the PL to be honest Walton, imo its too physical a league, the way teams play over here and not just the Stokes of the world means that Macherano would struggle at CB.. Every team you played against would play a big strong forward on him, hit it long, bombard from wide, throws, corners, all aiming to put pressure on the small DM playing at CB..

      In Spain its intricate, even the lower sides play football in front of the oppositon, they very rarely go long, they rarely try to dominte cbs with height and physical power..
      In europe when English teams play them they tend to try to play a more european game, look at Utd, Fergie plays 4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1 in the PL, plays two wingers, get wide get it in.. In Europe he tends to play 4-2-3-1 or 4-5-1, dominate midfield.. The reason being if you let the likes of Barca dominate the midfield they will kill you before you can start.
      Barc's game is dependent on possession, id be suprised if they played in the PL whether they wouldnt have to adapt that style, dont get me wrong i think they would be right up there and probably win the league as they are full of utterly world class players but i think they would have to adapt and i think you would see them invest in cbs... They play Macherano in Spain domestically because they know they can, here i dont think they could.

      Id be suprised if Macherano could play there in domestic english football.
      Also we need Lucas to play the holding role, he is utterly vital to the way we play, with the full backs pushing forward he tends to play as a "3rd cb" anyway, a modern day sweeper.. If he is fit and stays fit he needs to play that holding role, its vital for us, when he doesnt we lack anyone naturally picking up second balls that drop from the cbs from long balls forward on the counter attack.
      srslfc
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #51: Dec 07, 2012 11:08:23 pm
      Also we need Lucas to play the holding role, he is utterly vital to the way we play, with the full backs pushing forward he tends to play as a "3rd cb" anyway, a modern day sweeper.. If he is fit and stays fit he needs to play that holding role, its vital for us, when he doesnt we lack anyone naturally picking up second balls that drop from the cbs from long balls forward on the counter attack.

      Just about to post this PD.

      I don't see Lucas as a starting CB but in Brendan's system he can drop in there when others are attacking.
      Paisleydalglish
      • Guest
      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #52: Dec 07, 2012 11:15:21 pm
      Just about to post this PD.

      I don't see Lucas as a starting CB but in Brendan's system he can drop in there when others are attacking.

      Yeah he is vital there Si, even when Agger goes striding out his game awareness allows him to sit in for him.. Or when one of the full backs go you see him edge that side of centre to allow himself to get out to full back if needed.

      It's such an underrated role but one he does so well
      srslfc
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #53: Dec 07, 2012 11:23:55 pm
      Yeah he is vital there Si, even when Agger goes striding out his game awareness allows him to sit in for him.. Or when one of the full backs go you see him edge that side of centre to allow himself to get out to full back if needed.

      It's such an underrated role but one he does so well

      Indeed.

      I actually think I've forgotton how important Lucas is myself, amd I really do rate the lad, as when thinking about it today as he really does allow the others to shine in the managers system.
      lester76
      • Forum Legend - Fagan
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #54: Dec 08, 2012 12:40:14 am
      Agree
      Put it this way if I was to buy a new shirt and have a name printed on the back it would be Lucas's.
      so important to us and delighted that Rodgers sees that also.
      Fowler#23
      • Forum Ian Callaghan
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      • 862 posts | 36 
      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #55: Dec 08, 2012 03:14:15 am
      Very interesting reads here people.

      The wing back system with three CB's is a very interesting debate. I personally love the formation and believe if the right players are in place and they're fully down with there roles within the formation it can be deadly.

      There is a massive onus on the LCB and RCB of the 3 defenders to know there defending zones. An ideal team to look at is Chile's national team who play it very well. Especially at a youth level, if any of you have had the luck to see them over the last few years there a treat to watch. I believe if these players continue to progress and get to play alongside better players day in day out at club level. they will become a massive force in South American football for the next decade. And indeed we could well see a big influx of Chile's young stars gracing Europe's elite clubs.   

      In Dagger I believe we have a player who is tailor made for the left side of the 3, I'm not sure however we have this sort of player to play the right of the 3, Skrtel's attacking side has improved but imo he's better seen in a defensive capacity. First and foremost though you need someone in the centre of the 3 who fully knows the role of all 3 positions and who can cover and direct the players to either side of him.

      A few see the 3 cb's and highlight the central of the 3 as having to be the one who brings it out from the back and into midfield. That for me is a bit of a false opinion as with the wing backs role turning into a wide forward when the team attacks, it's a very easy transition for the LCB say to bring the ball forward down the left and for the wing back to really bomb on.

      If you have your central of the 3 defenders bringing it out it becomes very condensed in the middle. It also becomes easy to pick up whereas when you're switching between the LCB and RCB bringing out down there respective flanks you become less so.

      I personally think the formation works best with 2 forwards or at least a forward and a Bergkamp type player playing between the lines. Who you have up top then imo determines how and what personnel you put in the midfield.

      For example against a very defensive side you be happy to put a player in between the 2 forwards and 2 midfielders who has a free role so to speak very much like the role McManaman had for us when Evans played the wing back formation.

      If team tactics were down to me with this current squad I wouldn't play the formation, but would be looking in the next couple of windows to bring in 2 possibly 3 players that would be vital for the formation to gel perfectly.

      Reina


      RCB            Skrtel          Agger

      Johnson                                                                        Enrique

      Lucas        Allen

      Gerrad

      ST           Suarez
      Fowler#23
      • Forum Ian Callaghan
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #56: Dec 08, 2012 03:20:11 am
      I think the wing back formation doesn't suit Sterling and imo the current 4-3-3 suits our squad more, for me we are only 1 player away from having a solid 1 to 11 with our current formation.

      Reina

      Johnson      Skrtel     Agger        Enrique

      Lucas

      Allen       Gerrad

      Sterling           Suarez              FW
      Paisleydalglish
      • Guest
      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #57: Dec 24, 2012 10:20:05 am
      The mixed emotions of a week as a Liverpool fan right now, one week we lose to Villa, our shortcomings in the way BR has us playing shown up, by being far too open to the counter attack, the following week we dominate Fulham and take the chances we created..

      What was the difference? Whats the biggest issues with the formation or flaws? Does it need tweaking?

      Differences between Fulham and Villa?

      Fulham dont have the players to play effective quick counter attack against teams? Berbatov slows the play down. Whereas Villa with Benteke and Weimann had those players to be quick enough to get into those areas we left..

      We werent clinical enough when on top? So is it just us that we need to concentrate on rather than overly worry about what they can do to us? Especially at Anfield? Improve ourselves going forward, add a couple of players, take chances and then the oppostion become disheartened and less of a threat? If we are two up after dominating the first half hour would that happen? Would they become more open and we more effective on the counter?
      Or do we look when against teams like Villa with quick effective counter attacking players that we tweak it, we dont rely just on the pass-pass-pass option with the full backs bombing on, that we look more to get the ball forward in less passes, to our attacking 4 or 5 and let them do the work up there then keeping a tight defensive 4 or 5 to shut off the counter?

      Lets look at the home form this season,
      I think for this season alone im willing to forget about Utd, Arsenal and City whilst we settle into a new gaffer so early into his reign..
      So
      Stoke D
      Newcastle D
      Wigan W
      Southampton W
      Villa L
      Fulham W

      A recent turn round in home form with the Villa game sticking out, now last season we had an issue with drawing too many at home so do we "accept" the odd Villa result in to win more? The more open style may lead to more defeats but more wins and therefore more points? And as we develop then those defeats may become less against those teams?
      The last 4 home games in the league, Won 3 lost 1, 9pts.. Better than win 1 draw 3? 6 pts? or even win 2 draw 2, 8pts.. Maybe we need to accept that as a way to be more effective and win more games.


      I do think we need to develop the system slightly though against certain teams.. Against Fulham with the type of players they have, we can dominate possession and worry less against the counter, but against teams with quick players maybe we need to adjust it.. Like i say, be more pragmatic in attack, dont commit so many forward, still play with the same "style" but with more thought to not being so open when they hit us quickly?


      The next 3 games are so important to our season for me, Stoke away, QPR away and Sunderland home, we need to get 7-9 points from them, if we do then a top 4 finish is in our grasp, with a few new faces and confidence higher? Skys the limit.
      The more clinical we become then the less we will have to worry against the counter.
      nohockeynoproblem
      • Forum Michael Robinson
      • *

      • 54 posts |
      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #58: Dec 30, 2012 04:39:31 am
      Good topic, good reads, nice to find a thread that isn't in abject misery :)

      I think that BR has been pretty hindered by the options at his disposal. Suarez is forced to play up the middle because we have no one else who can play between the lines other than him. Our teenagers are getting chewed up in there, and that is part of what the formation needs.
       
      This is what I mean:

      final third:

      enrique  backxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxline johnson

                     sterling            suarez           downing

             midfieldxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxshield

                   allen                 lukas             gerrard

      I mean, once you look at where your young offensive mid/forwards need to operate, its pretty tough ground. So pretty much all season Suarez has had to play two roles, swinging back into the gap to get  the ball and then penetrating the defense with one-two's or just by himself. So BR has tried to put Shelvey in Suarez's spot as an attacking midfielder and pushing Suarez further forward, with pretty unsurprising results. Sahin and Allen don't fit there either, and that's why we haven't seen them used there and probably won't.

      What this team desperately needs is a creator, and an opportunistic finisher. Suarez should slide over to the left and Sterling on the right with Sturridge occupying space to create room for that attacking mid and the forwards on either side of him. That is why Sturridge is the perfect player for that role, he is big, strong and has a nose for the net and loose balls. But they still won't make the CL spots without an experienced offensive mid.

      I believe that there is some hope that FSG will pony up this window. There seems to be a lot of posturing going on with BR lowering expectations, now trying to use the possibility of Suarez leaving as leverage probably on both FSG and the players. It will be interesting. Sneijder is being offered up on a plate for us, with most of the big clubs bowing out of making significant moves, Russia being no place for a family and Totteham in worse financial shape than us.

      When they have that player in place, someone good with through balls, technical, quick and smart, and experienced... not asking much eh. Then Gerrard can sit back and read the play, deciding when to jump forward, and when to hang back and switch the play with a long ball or a cross back into the box which is the perfect role for him to grow into. That's a spot where he can really lead from, like a foot ball QB, but also scramble forward on one of his trademark runs.

      I agree that Skertl and Agger need time to adjust, and I don't find it too surprising that they have made several errors. Thats learning. I fully believe that they can grow, and what they learn will only make them better players.
      MIRO
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #59: Dec 30, 2012 03:30:00 pm
      Tactics ?
      Nah.

      Found the secret. Holy Grail.

      Mancini  @ Mancity
      Arsene @ Arsenal
      C**t @  ManU



      Dougie Livermore @  Liverpool.

      and hes a Prescot lad.


      Perfect.

      Sorted.





      I'll go and lie down

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