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      Tactics geeks of the world unite...

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      PurpleMonkey
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #529: Jul 22, 2015 02:13:56 pm
      what i was getting at is that I don't think our forwards are good enough to warrant two of them being on the field at the expense of some of the talented midfielders we have at the club. I'd be happy enough to see Firmino up top with Benteke

      would you rather see Origi in the side ahead of a Lallana or a young Jordan Ibe? I wouldn't. I would prefer is to play a formation that gets more of our best players on the pitch at the same time and unfortunately for me I can't get excited about any of our strikers at the moment.

      I utterly agree and see it from your POV too. Because our creative attacking players out weighs our strikers in terms of quality, I too think we should look into accommodating them and find the right system. Without doubt, a creative forward next to a #9 is the best option. I don't see it as a case of throwing in our best players and hoping the best, I actually see a diverse bunch of players that can offer the right balance in a team if played correctly.

      My other issue with the diamond is that you can get overrun in the middle of the park or scorched out wide if the opposition manager is tactically astute.

      The way I understand and see it, the diamond should be more effective and efficient enough to dominate a midfield of 2 or 3, so the middle does not concern me. But you are absolutely right, we could get scorched out wide, but they're gonna have to have some quick fit full backs & wingers, and also it's dependent on our box-box players who'll have the responsibility to cover the wide areas, luckily enough, we have 2 of the very best and some fine cover.

      It worked for us two years ago because we had two lads up front who never stood still, Luis popped up all over the pitch and Studge (albeit playing more centrally) could roam the pitch also. It meant we never really got outnumbered, we pressed, hustled and harried as a side, and perhaps most importantly we were able to play a midfield that was a little lacking in creativity (ie Allen and Henderson) but was high on work rate safe in the knowledge that the two boys up top and Coutinho (or Sterling) would take care of the creative side of things.

      And I think it will work for us again. I can see us being better than the 13/14 team as a unit. Whilst we lose a DLPM, we'll gain a DM who'll patrol defensively and keep the play ticking which Gerrard couldn't do well. Rather than Coutinho or Allen in that box-box role, we'll have Milner, a huge improvement. Our #10 in Coutinho will be more creative than Sterling. And as for pressing from the front, Firmino does his fair share of work and I never thought Sturridge pressed well so, Ings or Origi would probably be an improvement. Oh, and we have better full backs too! It definitely looks more balanced to me.

      I would be looking for us to play 4-3-3 as a staple formation throwing in kinks as and when the manager sees fit.

      I don't mind 433, but I think we need to play a DLPM or drop one of the box-box players (Hendo or Milner) and play a more creative player there, perhaps Ibe, Markovic, Tex, Coutinho or even Can? Otherwise, I feel we're gonna be too 1 dimensional. Another factor to take in, Coutinho and Firmino will be our main creative players, so would playing them out wide or in that box-box role limit them? I'd rather them the freedom as a 2nd striker or 10.

      Anyway, I feel the diamond is still the best way to go to fit all our key players in and allow them to play their natural game. Whilst it may look as if I'm pinning all my hopes on our main players, I still see our cover being capable of coming in and adapting to the style and system and play at an efficient standard, especially if the team is well structured and organised.
      Scottbot
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #530: Aug 04, 2015 08:27:04 pm
      So any clues to how we will play/set up with Benteke in the team following the Swindon game. The big man scored a spectacular goal which will do his confidence the world of good but how well do you all think he fitted in over the course of the game? I thought we struggled to get him into the game during the first half, he didn't get enough touches of the ball for me. 2nd half was much better though. Observations from me in terms of tactics:

      - The team looked better when he drifted more (first half he played high and central mostly) he dropped deep a few times to show for the ball and also drifted wide on a couple of occasions. I think we will need to see lots of that from him if we are to be successful. I would like to see Firmino attack that space and be the furthest man forward whenever he does and there will also be opportunities for Henderson and Milner to get beyond with late runs.

      - He looked quick quick on the turn and able to get after through balls when we were defending deep and looking to play on the counter, this was quite encouraging.

      - There was also a nice passage of play just before his disallowed goal where he dropped off to show feet, popped a little ball around the corner to a wide player and then turned and sprinted towards the box before getting the ball back. This I think is a difference between Benteke and Lambert/Balotelli because he is capable of doing this that little bit faster which is key.

      - I also noticed we kicked long from goal kicks on a good few occasions which isn't something we generally do under Rodgers.

      Going back to my first point the key for me is that we get this guy moving, dropping deep, into channels etc our whole game the past three years has been predicated on moving the defence around, about players interchanging positions, vacating one space only for another player to attack it. Playing a bigger less mobile player in the 9 shirt does pose a disk to this style but I think it is very important to maintain lots of movement in our front 3/4 (even if it is less so than in previous years). Creative players usually find a way to be creative and that is good for us because on Coutinho, Firmino, Ibe and Lallana we have some talented players.
      ajayi82
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #531: Aug 05, 2015 04:33:01 pm
      So any clues to how we will play/set up with Benteke in the team following the Swindon game. The big man scored a spectacular goal which will do his confidence the world of good but how well do you all think he fitted in over the course of the game? I thought we struggled to get him into the game during the first half, he didn't get enough touches of the ball for me. 2nd half was much better though. Observations from me in terms of tactics:

      - The team looked better when he drifted more (first half he played high and central mostly) he dropped deep a few times to show for the ball and also drifted wide on a couple of occasions. I think we will need to see lots of that from him if we are to be successful. I would like to see Firmino attack that space and be the furthest man forward whenever he does and there will also be opportunities for Henderson and Milner to get beyond with late runs.

      - He looked quick quick on the turn and able to get after through balls when we were defending deep and looking to play on the counter, this was quite encouraging.

      - There was also a nice passage of play just before his disallowed goal where he dropped off to show feet, popped a little ball around the corner to a wide player and then turned and sprinted towards the box before getting the ball back. This I think is a difference between Benteke and Lambert/Balotelli because he is capable of doing this that little bit faster which is key.

      - I also noticed we kicked long from goal kicks on a good few occasions which isn't something we generally do under Rodgers.

      Going back to my first point the key for me is that we get this guy moving, dropping deep, into channels etc our whole game the past three years has been predicated on moving the defence around, about players interchanging positions, vacating one space only for another player to attack it. Playing a bigger less mobile player in the 9 shirt does pose a disk to this style but I think it is very important to maintain lots of movement in our front 3/4 (even if it is less so than in previous years). Creative players usually find a way to be creative and that is good for us because on Coutinho, Firmino, Ibe and Lallana we have some talented players.
      The scary thing is mate we dont actually know how we will set up as we have to many players fighting for the same position so fitting them in is going to be tough. What we do know is we now have the quality in depth to be able to put a good team out capable of winning Europa and that should be his no1 priority as its CL football then anything else is a bounus.
      reddebs
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #532: Aug 05, 2015 04:43:06 pm
      I think we're going to go Barca style with 3 proper goalscorers up front in Firmino, Benteke and Studge when he's back.  All three interchanging, pulling defenses all over with Cou, Hendo and Milner lurking behind  ;D

      F**k tactics this season, just run amock  xxxxx:action-smiley-065:
      FL Red
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #533: Aug 05, 2015 04:48:28 pm
      F**k tactics this season, just run amock  xxxxx:action-smiley-065:

      Everyone just do this ->

      ;D
      reddebs
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #534: Aug 05, 2015 04:53:48 pm

      Ahaha that's what last season felt like, I want the opposition to be feeling like that this season  ;D
      Scottbot
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #535: Aug 10, 2015 11:14:45 pm
      Got our first proper look at the side this weekend, really important confidence building win borne out of hard work and good work ethic but from a tactical point of view were there any clue or pointers to how we should set up with our new number 9 in the side. Few thoughts from the game for me were:

      - We looked better once Can came on and the midfield three went 1-2 rather than 2-1. It freed up Milner and Henderson to play up and down which is important given both players have an incredible engine to do this.

      - There is a general consensus that Coutinho is better centrally than playing off the left wing but with Benteke leading the line as a lone forward I would prefer to see the little man on the left. To get the best out of Benteke I think we need a number 10 who is willing to get beyond him and make attacking runs. That's not Coutinho's game, he is very rarely (if ever) the furthest man forward, he likes to play in the hole and slip other players in or get his long shots away. He can certainly do this from the left which is where he was playing when he unleashed the winner yesterday. When he is fit I would prefer Firmino to play in the 10 role or even Lallana, He would be worth a look there given how two-footed he is.

      - We saw our defenders clear their lines when pressed rather than trying to play risky passes in Nd around our own final third. I was glad to see this, much better for the blood pressure and having Benteke up there certainly gave us a bit of an out ball. It was also interesting to see Mignolet elect to kick upfield rather than have us play put from the back. Again, away to Stoke I've got absolutely no problem with this.

      It will be really interesting to see how we set up against Bournmouth on Monday night. Can we switch from workmanlike and industrious to give a more dominant and CREATIVE performance?
      « Last Edit: Aug 10, 2015 11:34:21 pm by Scottbot »
      PurpleMonkey
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #536: Aug 10, 2015 11:38:30 pm
      - We looked better once Can came on and the midfield three went 1-2 rather than 2-1. It freed up Milner and Henderson to play up and down which is important given both players have an incredible engine to do this.

      I really do think 1-2/1-2-1 is the way forward with the midfielders we have. Still have question marks over possession and controlled football with a Can, Milner and Hendo trio, but Can deserves an opportunity to show what he's got in that DM role after his strong cameo vs Stoke.

      - There is a general consensus that Coutinho is better centrally than playing off the left wing but with Bentek leading the line as a lone forward I would prefer to see the little man on the left.

      I'm one of those that want to see Coutinho play as the sole #10. Though it doesn't necessary mean he'll stay central, more of a roaming #10 which I feel would add that unpredictability to his play. Another option would be left midfield in a 1-2, and with Firmino playing as an inside left forward, we could seem some pretty sexy combinations?

      To get the best out of Benteke I think we need a number 10 who is willing to get beyond him and make attacking runs.

      When he is fit I would prefer Firmino to play in the 10 or even Lallana. I gut be worth a look there given how two-footed he is.

      How about, Firmino, Lallana or probably Ibe coming in from the left and playing off Benteke? A bit like how Hazard or Neymar plays?
      reddebs
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #537: Aug 10, 2015 11:40:50 pm
      Interesting read which could go in Brendans thread but I thought it was more pertinent in here.

      http://www.thisisanfield.com/2015/08/analysis-use-of-james-milner-vs-stoke-city-points-to-brendan-rodgers-tactical-vision/


      With a variety of systems on show in Liverpool’s 1-0 win over Stoke City on Sunday, Jed Davies highlights the role of James Milner as pivotal to Brendan Rodgers‘ tactical blueprint.

      Brendan Rodgers, after his first transfer window as a Liverpool manager (the one where we missed out on Clint Dempsey…), sat down with journalists to openly discuss his vision for the club moving forward.

      In that interview Rodgers was asked about his preference towards the 4-3-3 formation over the 4-2-3-1 formation, a formation that Rodgers adopted due to the player profiles available to him; many will argue this was to account for the declining mobility of Steven Gerrard, a player who still had a lot to give at the top level.

      Rodgers responded through an attacking lens detailing his view that by having two players playing underneath (in a 4-2-3-1), play would circulate horizontally and move side-to-side more often.

      With the “one and the two,” Rodgers explained, you had more going forward and more options for your midfield control to vary between any two of the three players (that either of the ‘two’ can drop in and support).

      In the 4-2-3-1, Rodgers stated that there is potential for one of the two to ‘play around the corner’ (to join in with the attacks further forward from time to time).

      “The two either side need to have the capacity to control but also run and get forward, and get back in. So if they don’t have that then it’s very difficult for it to function”
      – Brendan Rodgers on “the one and the two.”

      The underlying issue the Liverpool midfield suffered from was that of ‘immobility’ and player profiles that perhaps a lack of football fitness to successfully implement Rodgers’ vision of 4-3-3, and instead we have seen a variety of formations implemented over the last three seasons.

      At the most recent Welsh National Coaches Conference, Chris Davies, Liverpool’s Head of Analysis, presented on the recent tactical trends of the Premier League and gave a variety of information around formations used.

      According to Liverpool themselves—if we take what Davies presented to be the closest representation to the work of the coaching staff and players at Melwood—they prepared their players for four formations last season: 4-3-3, 4-2-3-1, 4-4-2 diamond and 3-4-3.

      So when Liverpool used two formations against Stoke on the opening day of the 2015/16 season to suit the introduction of different player profiles, nobody would have been too surprised.

      Liverpool started the game set up in a 4-2-3-1 formation that fell back into a 4-4-1-1 medium block during the defending phases of the game: a set-up with Jordan Henderson and James Milner at the base of the midfield and Milner as the player who ‘plays around the corner’ on the right hand side of the duo.

      In the fourth minute of the game, something unique occurred for the first time on the day; something showing that Rodgers identifies great levels of mobility in Milner, the type of extraordinary mobility that allows you to break the rules for how a formation should be employed for the typical player profiles.



      In the fourth minute Liverpool are set up in a medium-high block in their defensive structure.

      Only we don’t see a structure typical of a 4-4-1-1 or a 4-2-3-1, but instead Milner has advanced onto the second pressing line alongside Philippe Coutinho, while both Adam Lallana and Jordon Ibe fall back to a third line of pressure alongside Henderson: a 4-3-2-1, with full width from the third line of pressure in Lallana, Ibe and Henderson.

      Not only has Milner got the capacity to employ the qualities Rodgers outlined in his 2012 interview through the attacking lenses, but he also has qualities (in terms of football-specific fitness) that have led Rodgers to the conclusion that he can become more innovative and flexible in the defensive structures Liverpool can employ, particularly in the medium-high pressing phase of defending.

      The inclusion of Henderson (equally as mobile) as the player protecting the back four also plays its role for the defensive strategy.

      Only 40 seconds later Liverpool fall back into a medium-low block of 4-4-1-1, but it is Milner who leads the pressing initiative and again jumps onto the second line of pressure with Coutinho.

      On the other side of the field, the pressure comes from Coutinho and occasionally Lallana, a player who consistently checks his shoulders and ensures his ‘pressing shadow’ was one of best practice (the passing options he covers behind him).

      The proposal that this was a 4-2-3-1 game from Liverpool is one made at a long stretch. Only for the moments where Milner rotates out to the right full-back slot (where he acts as a platform to play forward from these areas) does Milner sit underneath the ball.

      For the most part it was Henderson’s role to sit underneath the ball in the first half and Milner’s to position himself between the lines of the opposition in a more advanced position.

      The actual formation while in possession from Liverpool was a hybrid of 4-3-3 and 4-2-3-1, one where Milner’s positioning was the difference.

      Sometimes Milner would be alongside Henderson, but quite often he was positioned between lines or simply involved in a common wide rotation with the right full-back to get Nathaniel Clyne onto a more advanced line of play or act as a platform for penetration underneath the opposition midfield.

      The case to suggest that this was closer to a 4-2-3-1, was that the role of Coutinho was less of one that required the Brazilian to drop deep and control the game from deeper areas (as Rodgers had described in his vision of a 4-3-3).

      The introduction of Emre Can and Roberto Firmino (who was no doubt rested after having a short pre-season that others due to the Copa America), changed the dynamics and shape once again.

      Liverpool eventually adopted a 4-3-2-1 shape with Can now sitting at the base of the three in midfield (a very clear ‘one and a two’) and Coutinho and Firmino behind Christian Benteke.

      The positioning of Coutinho was now one that could start higher, against the backline of the opposition and drop off into the pockets of space between lines.

      On the 66th minute Coutinho gave a glimpse of what was to come by dropping off from the Stoke right-back and in doing so, taking the defender out of his slot into the space between lines.

      Coutinho then demonstrated one of his strongest qualities – to turn his marker and beat him in the process of doing so, now allowing him to run at the opposition defenders and invite another player out of his defensive slot once more.

      This situation, however, did not lead to a shot but it did present us with the first good argument to change shape.

      More than this however, the changes of Can and Firmino brought about Rodgers’ vision of 4-3-3 in real terms (albeit with wingers who travel inside rather than stay wide): two central midfielders who can get forward and back, two central midfielders who can drop deep to control and make third-man runs to get beyond and lastly, two central midfielders who can press on either side with intensity and maximum pressure.



      The 4-3-2-1 formation that finished the Stoke game is, in my view, the strongest team and structure without the inclusion of Daniel Sturridge.

      What Liverpool do have this season, more than any other, is tactical flexibility; and not the type of tactical flexibility that is forced upon you due to scarcity of player profile variability, but tactical flexibility that allows for you to answer an array of tactical problems.

      Do we face a team sitting in a deep block?

      Do we need to set up to counter attack with a front two and a diamond?

      Do we need to construct play through clever movement, rotation and third-man runs?

      Each question Liverpool now have the profile of players to enable a solution. Whether that solution be one shown against Stoke or another Rodgers has leant to before in 4-4-2 diamond and 3-4-3 box.

      After many years with so many fans assuming that Milner is no more than the average top-side Premier League footballer, perhaps it is only now that Rodgers has found the profile of player he has needed to implement his vision of ‘the one and the two’ variation of 4-3-3.

      One player added, a vision finally obtainable.

      “The two either side need to have the capacity to control but also run and get forward, and get back in. So if they don’t have that then it’s very difficult for it to function.”
      – Brendan Rodgers on ‘the one and the two’.
      Scottbot
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #538: Aug 10, 2015 11:47:41 pm

      I'm one of those that want to see Coutinho play as the sole #10. Though it doesn't necessary mean he'll stay central, more of a roaming #10 which I feel would add that unpredictability to his play.

      How about, Firmino, Lallana or probably Ibe coming in from the left and playing off Benteke? A bit like how Hazard or Neymar plays?

      We didn't see much of Lallana getting in and around Benteke in yesterday's game so I think Firmino might be a better option. I also think we will see a bit of Ings on the left hand side in that formation, evidently Brendan was planning on bringing him on for Coutinho prior to the goal. Certainly if Ings was on the pitch you would imagine his movement will be a plus for us when Benteke drops deep to link play.

      As for Coutinho roaming, I think he can roam just as much from a left sided position as he can in the hole. I do like hi as a 10 but I think you get the best from him there IF you have a quicker, more nimble player ahead of him in the 9. Either way we've got some nice options with Coutinho, Lallana, Firmino, Ibe and Markovic for the AMF positions, and not to forget Milner who I think will see some time at all three attacking positions at some stage of the season.

      PurpleMonkey
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #539: Aug 10, 2015 11:56:46 pm
      We didn't see much of Lallana getting in and around Benteke in yesterday's game so I think Firmino might be a better option.

      If Firmino can adapt to the prem, for sure, he will be the better option. Also, what baffles me is that Lallana is best playing off a target man, It's one of the reasons why his attacking play was so good at Southampton over the years?

      I also think we will see a bit of Ings on the left hand side in that formation, evidently Brendan was planning on bringing him on for Coutinho prior to the goal. Certainly if Ings was on the pitch you would imagine his movement will be a plus for us when Benteke drops deep to link play.

      Totally forgot about Ings! I agree, it could be a good option to have, he has that strikers instinct and could act as a 2nd striker.

      American Red
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #540: Aug 12, 2015 06:00:07 pm
      Interesting read which could go in Brendans thread but I thought it was more pertinent in here.

      http://www.thisisanfield.com/2015/08/analysis-use-of-james-milner-vs-stoke-city-points-to-brendan-rodgers-tactical-vision/


      With a variety of systems on show in Liverpool’s 1-0 win over Stoke City on Sunday, Jed Davies highlights the role of James Milner as pivotal to Brendan Rodgers‘ tactical blueprint.

      Brendan Rodgers, after his first transfer window as a Liverpool manager (the one where we missed out on Clint Dempsey…), sat down with journalists to openly discuss his vision for the club moving forward.

      In that interview Rodgers was asked about his preference towards the 4-3-3 formation over the 4-2-3-1 formation, a formation that Rodgers adopted due to the player profiles available to him; many will argue this was to account for the declining mobility of Steven Gerrard, a player who still had a lot to give at the top level.

      Rodgers responded through an attacking lens detailing his view that by having two players playing underneath (in a 4-2-3-1), play would circulate horizontally and move side-to-side more often.

      With the “one and the two,” Rodgers explained, you had more going forward and more options for your midfield control to vary between any two of the three players (that either of the ‘two’ can drop in and support).

      In the 4-2-3-1, Rodgers stated that there is potential for one of the two to ‘play around the corner’ (to join in with the attacks further forward from time to time).

      “The two either side need to have the capacity to control but also run and get forward, and get back in. So if they don’t have that then it’s very difficult for it to function”
      – Brendan Rodgers on “the one and the two.”

      The underlying issue the Liverpool midfield suffered from was that of ‘immobility’ and player profiles that perhaps a lack of football fitness to successfully implement Rodgers’ vision of 4-3-3, and instead we have seen a variety of formations implemented over the last three seasons.

      At the most recent Welsh National Coaches Conference, Chris Davies, Liverpool’s Head of Analysis, presented on the recent tactical trends of the Premier League and gave a variety of information around formations used.

      According to Liverpool themselves—if we take what Davies presented to be the closest representation to the work of the coaching staff and players at Melwood—they prepared their players for four formations last season: 4-3-3, 4-2-3-1, 4-4-2 diamond and 3-4-3.

      So when Liverpool used two formations against Stoke on the opening day of the 2015/16 season to suit the introduction of different player profiles, nobody would have been too surprised.

      Liverpool started the game set up in a 4-2-3-1 formation that fell back into a 4-4-1-1 medium block during the defending phases of the game: a set-up with Jordan Henderson and James Milner at the base of the midfield and Milner as the player who ‘plays around the corner’ on the right hand side of the duo.

      In the fourth minute of the game, something unique occurred for the first time on the day; something showing that Rodgers identifies great levels of mobility in Milner, the type of extraordinary mobility that allows you to break the rules for how a formation should be employed for the typical player profiles.



      In the fourth minute Liverpool are set up in a medium-high block in their defensive structure.

      Only we don’t see a structure typical of a 4-4-1-1 or a 4-2-3-1, but instead Milner has advanced onto the second pressing line alongside Philippe Coutinho, while both Adam Lallana and Jordon Ibe fall back to a third line of pressure alongside Henderson: a 4-3-2-1, with full width from the third line of pressure in Lallana, Ibe and Henderson.

      Not only has Milner got the capacity to employ the qualities Rodgers outlined in his 2012 interview through the attacking lenses, but he also has qualities (in terms of football-specific fitness) that have led Rodgers to the conclusion that he can become more innovative and flexible in the defensive structures Liverpool can employ, particularly in the medium-high pressing phase of defending.

      The inclusion of Henderson (equally as mobile) as the player protecting the back four also plays its role for the defensive strategy.

      Only 40 seconds later Liverpool fall back into a medium-low block of 4-4-1-1, but it is Milner who leads the pressing initiative and again jumps onto the second line of pressure with Coutinho.

      On the other side of the field, the pressure comes from Coutinho and occasionally Lallana, a player who consistently checks his shoulders and ensures his ‘pressing shadow’ was one of best practice (the passing options he covers behind him).

      The proposal that this was a 4-2-3-1 game from Liverpool is one made at a long stretch. Only for the moments where Milner rotates out to the right full-back slot (where he acts as a platform to play forward from these areas) does Milner sit underneath the ball.

      For the most part it was Henderson’s role to sit underneath the ball in the first half and Milner’s to position himself between the lines of the opposition in a more advanced position.

      The actual formation while in possession from Liverpool was a hybrid of 4-3-3 and 4-2-3-1, one where Milner’s positioning was the difference.

      Sometimes Milner would be alongside Henderson, but quite often he was positioned between lines or simply involved in a common wide rotation with the right full-back to get Nathaniel Clyne onto a more advanced line of play or act as a platform for penetration underneath the opposition midfield.

      The case to suggest that this was closer to a 4-2-3-1, was that the role of Coutinho was less of one that required the Brazilian to drop deep and control the game from deeper areas (as Rodgers had described in his vision of a 4-3-3).

      The introduction of Emre Can and Roberto Firmino (who was no doubt rested after having a short pre-season that others due to the Copa America), changed the dynamics and shape once again.

      Liverpool eventually adopted a 4-3-2-1 shape with Can now sitting at the base of the three in midfield (a very clear ‘one and a two’) and Coutinho and Firmino behind Christian Benteke.

      The positioning of Coutinho was now one that could start higher, against the backline of the opposition and drop off into the pockets of space between lines.

      On the 66th minute Coutinho gave a glimpse of what was to come by dropping off from the Stoke right-back and in doing so, taking the defender out of his slot into the space between lines.

      Coutinho then demonstrated one of his strongest qualities – to turn his marker and beat him in the process of doing so, now allowing him to run at the opposition defenders and invite another player out of his defensive slot once more.

      This situation, however, did not lead to a shot but it did present us with the first good argument to change shape.

      More than this however, the changes of Can and Firmino brought about Rodgers’ vision of 4-3-3 in real terms (albeit with wingers who travel inside rather than stay wide): two central midfielders who can get forward and back, two central midfielders who can drop deep to control and make third-man runs to get beyond and lastly, two central midfielders who can press on either side with intensity and maximum pressure.



      The 4-3-2-1 formation that finished the Stoke game is, in my view, the strongest team and structure without the inclusion of Daniel Sturridge.

      What Liverpool do have this season, more than any other, is tactical flexibility; and not the type of tactical flexibility that is forced upon you due to scarcity of player profile variability, but tactical flexibility that allows for you to answer an array of tactical problems.

      Do we face a team sitting in a deep block?

      Do we need to set up to counter attack with a front two and a diamond?

      Do we need to construct play through clever movement, rotation and third-man runs?

      Each question Liverpool now have the profile of players to enable a solution. Whether that solution be one shown against Stoke or another Rodgers has leant to before in 4-4-2 diamond and 3-4-3 box.

      After many years with so many fans assuming that Milner is no more than the average top-side Premier League footballer, perhaps it is only now that Rodgers has found the profile of player he has needed to implement his vision of ‘the one and the two’ variation of 4-3-3.

      One player added, a vision finally obtainable.

      “The two either side need to have the capacity to control but also run and get forward, and get back in. So if they don’t have that then it’s very difficult for it to function.”
      – Brendan Rodgers on ‘the one and the two’.

      Really great read. Not entirely sure that I agree with it fully. But provides clarity on what I had thought Brendan would have been thinking the moment I heard we were interested in Milner.

      Certainly agree with the end though, the 4-3-2-1 with Can and Firmino in for Lallana and Ibe is our strongest setup. Can gives a lot of steel to our midfield and releases Hendo from a position that he's not great at into a position that's his best.
      srslfc
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #541: Aug 15, 2015 11:46:59 pm
      I was listening to one of the pods on Anfield Indez and Dave Hendrick was talking about an interesting way of using our midfield in a diamond. Basically it is the four most of us would pick in Milner, Can, Hendo and Phil but he was talking about playing it like this:

      Can

      Milner        Coutinho

      Henderson


      Can is the most obvious player we have for the deepest role even though he isn't a natural there and will need to learn the role. Like Dave I think Phil's best positon is as an '8' in midfield as he has more of the game in front of him and can influence theplay a lot more from that slightly deeper role similar to what Iniesta does fro Barca. Milner would play the more box to box role in linking defense with attack and he is well suited to this and has the energy as well as the guile to link the play and move the ball to Coutinho and alos the attackers.

      The intersting part is playing Hendo as the 10 and I hadn't really thought about it until he mentioned it but by playing Hendo there he is much further forward he can press the play early on and you could see him winning a lot of ball high up the pitch. It also means he is closer to goal and I think he could easily score 10 league goals playing ahead of the midfield and behind Firmino and Benteke.

      Beerbelly
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #542: Aug 16, 2015 12:28:14 am
      I was listening to one of the pods on Anfield Indez and Dave Hendrick was talking about an interesting way of using our midfield in a diamond. Basically it is the four most of us would pick in Milner, Can, Hendo and Phil but he was talking about playing it like this:

      Can

      Milner        Coutinho

      Henderson


      Can is the most obvious player we have for the deepest role even though he isn't a natural there and will need to learn the role. Like Dave I think Phil's best positon is as an '8' in midfield as he has more of the game in front of him and can influence theplay a lot more from that slightly deeper role similar to what Iniesta does fro Barca. Milner would play the more box to box role in linking defense with attack and he is well suited to this and has the energy as well as the guile to link the play and move the ball to Coutinho and alos the attackers.

      The intersting part is playing Hendo as the 10 and I hadn't really thought about it until he mentioned it but by playing Hendo there he is much further forward he can press the play early on and you could see him winning a lot of ball high up the pitch. It also means he is closer to goal and I think he could easily score 10 league goals playing ahead of the midfield and behind Firmino and Benteke.

      I'd swap Hendo and Coutinho and revert that back to the more obvious set-up srslfc.

      I wouldn't have Coutinho in the engine room. His talent can be nullified more there especially if we're having to defend for periods where other midfield's have us, back to the wall. He's tenacious enough, but strong enough and defensive minded enough to put a shift in going backwards, not really.

      Having a number 10 (Henderson) whose reason for being there is that he 'can run around a lot' is pretty wasteful in using your best players for their best positions. Coutinho's games suits the link between midfield and attack more than Henderson's. Balance of pass, vision, creativity, working in tight spaces and his capacity to put the ball in the back of the net outweighs the running of Henderson in that position IMHO. Henderson, in front of goal has no head, a headless chicken like we saw at Stoke last weekend. He was put through just wide of goal, where he should have brought the ball down and had a pop at goal. He made the wrong decision and looked for someone else (Benteke) to get on the end of his ball, that ended up in no-mans land - and back to Stoke - from a real scoring opportunity.

      Henderson's game is better suited to the engine room too, where all his running can be used to good affect, and can play those long (Gerrard-esque) diagonal balls forward. He can run late from deep to offer numbers going forward and has the stamina to do this. In saying that, I think Henderson really needs to influence the midfield much more, and own it like a boss. He's got to put himself about a bit more (and not just squaring up to people for the cameras), hopefully he can but I'm expecting this from Milner, personally.
      srslfc
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #543: Aug 16, 2015 12:39:05 am
      I'd swap Hendo and Coutinho and revert that back to the more obvious set-up srslfc.

      I wouldn't have Coutinho in the engine room. His talent can be nullified more there especially if we're having to defend for periods where other midfield's have us, back to the wall. He's tenacious enough, but strong enough and defensive minded enough to put a shift in going backwards, not really.

      Having a number 10 (Henderson) whose reason for being there is that he 'can run around a lot' is pretty wasteful in using your best players for their best positions. Coutinho's games suits the link between midfield and attack more than Henderson's. Balance of pass, vision, creativity, working in tight spaces and his capacity to put the ball in the back of the net outweighs the running of Henderson in that position IMHO. Henderson, in front of goal has no head, a headless chicken like we saw at Stoke last weekend. He was put through just wide of goal, where he should have brought the ball down and had a pop at goal. He made the wrong decision and looked for someone else (Benteke) to get on the end of his ball, that ended up in no-mans land - and back to Stoke - from a real scoring opportunity.

      Henderson's game is better suited to the engine room too, where all his running can be used to good affect, and can play those long (Gerrard-esque) diagonal balls forward. He can run late from deep to offer numbers going forward and has the stamina to do this. In saying that, I think Henderson really needs to influence the midfield much more, and own it like a boss. He's got to put himself about a bit more (and not just squaring up to people for the cameras), hopefully he can but I'm expecting this from Milner, personally.

      I do agree with some of what you say mate, although Hendo is far from a 'headless chicken' in my opinion.

      Hendrick made some good points and the pod is worth a listen and although he is a little negative and overly keen to criticise the manager at times he does talk a lot of sense overall.

      Personally I'm closer to your thinking and I think our best system involves all the players we're talking about and I would have Hendo further back but also Phil a little further back than you maybe would have him as I do think with more of the game infront of him he can influence our play a lot more. I do agree that we can't have him too far back so I'd like to see him just in front of Hendo and Milner and feeding Firmino and Benteke.

      Can

      Henderson       Milner

      Coutinho

                    Firmino

      Benteke

      Now that I've put that down it is probably exactly as you said so I guess we agree on this one buddy. ;D
      Beerbelly
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #544: Aug 16, 2015 02:26:56 am
      I do think when he is near, or in front of goal though srslfc, he panics and doesn't have the composure to place the ball into the net.

      It's like all the adrenaline and anticipation of scoring prior to that last connection of the boot laces is too much for him. He gets all excited I think, then usually fluffs it.  ;D
      dunlop liddell shankly
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #545: Aug 17, 2015 12:24:31 pm
      I do think when he is near, or in front of goal though srslfc, he panics and doesn't have the composure to place the ball into the net.

      It's like all the adrenaline and anticipation of scoring prior to that last connection of the boot laces is too much for him. He gets all excited I think, then usually fluffs it.  ;D

      Got more goals for Liverpool than Coutinho has.

      Back to the discussion at hand, I think for tonight's game we should be going for the jugular. I'd start with two up top and play something like this;

      Henderson
      Milner Coutinho
      Firmino

      Ings Benteke
      reddebs
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #546: Aug 18, 2015 01:17:22 pm
      With players still getting up to speed fitness wise and some new players still to find their feet I understand why people are concerned with the midfield and calling for a sitter behind Hendo and Milner to try to get more control in there.  However when everyone's fit and firing I can see our 433 being

      Migs

      Clyne
      Skrtel
      Lovren/Sakho
      Moreno/Gomez

      Milner
      Hendo
      Coutinho

      Sturridge
      Benteke
      Firmino

      So if that's how we're going to set up, who drops out from that front 4 to make way for a sitter?  Do we still need one now we have fullbacks that actually defend and cover their space?

      I guess the 442 diamond with Studge and Benteke up top and a sitter behind would work but do we then not play Firmino to accomodate another defender?

      I guess the good thing we have now are plenty of options dependant on the opposition, where we can change the starting set up accordingly and we have a strong bench for the first time in forever.
      Scottbot
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #547: Aug 18, 2015 01:36:49 pm
      I guess the biggest question mark for me tactically is can we be a team who dominate Possession now that we are committed to Benteke as our number 9? I think most fans who were against Benteke coming were worried because of this aspect fearing that we would be less creative, less fluid and that we would have less possession. It's still early doors and to be honest the Stoke game is not one to judge this but the game last night reinforced some of these legitimate concerns for me.

      Be interested to hear what others think?
      fishpie
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #548: Aug 18, 2015 01:39:50 pm
      With players still getting up to speed fitness wise and some new players still to find their feet I understand why people are concerned with the midfield and calling for a sitter behind Hendo and Milner to try to get more control in there.  However when everyone's fit and firing I can see our 433 being

      Migs

      Clyne
      Skrtel
      Lovren/Sakho
      Moreno/Gomez

      Milner
      Hendo
      Coutinho

      Sturridge
      Benteke
      Firmino

      So if that's how we're going to set up, who drops out from that front 4 to make way for a sitter?  Do we still need one now we have fullbacks that actually defend and cover their space?

      I guess the 442 diamond with Studge and Benteke up top and a sitter behind would work but do we then not play Firmino to accomodate another defender?

      I guess the good thing we have now are plenty of options dependant on the opposition, where we can change the starting set up accordingly and we have a strong bench for the first time in forever.

      If Milner doesn't play as DM he should play right wing, not Hendo and Milner side by side, it doesn't look balanced. It's like there are too many players close together trying to fill the one area, getting in each others way and giving no outlet to pass to when we do get the ball. I'd rather Milner do that job as DM and Hendo/Countnho can play a bit further forward either side of him. 4 4 2 would be my preferred formation.

      There seems to be grand canyon size spaces in our midfield at times from what I've noticed recently. I'd also probably sack off all this diamond stuff and just have all areas of the pitch covered.

      Give them a simple formation and let them decide what they do on the pitch. Once they're on the pitch it's the players job to run into spaces, see split second moments of opportunity, the more it's overly complicated by super space tactics  the more sh*t they've got to decide when they actually play.

      They'll be in two minds all the time, oh the boss says keep the diamond shape and do a global reshuffle.
      HScRed1
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #549: Aug 18, 2015 03:01:00 pm
      I have not watched the Stoke match and only saw highlights of the game last night but the most glaring dysfunctionality of the team is a lack of a controller at the base of the midfield.
      It's all well and good having the energy of Milner and Hendo but they lack the technical ability to control the tempo of a game as witnessed by the number of times we give the ball away needlessly.

      Can may well be that player in the future, he's not ready yet imo.
      If BR does not think Lucas can do a job there then that position should be a priority before the window closes.
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #550: Aug 18, 2015 05:47:21 pm
      I guess the biggest question mark for me tactically is can we be a team who dominate Possession now that we are committed to Benteke as our number 9? I think most fans who were against Benteke coming were worried because of this aspect fearing that we would be less creative, less fluid and that we would have less possession. It's still early doors and to be honest the Stoke game is not one to judge this but the game last night reinforced some of these legitimate concerns for me.

      Be interested to hear what others think?

      Last 3 games (including Helsinki), we were too negative in our passing. Our midfielders don't drop deep as often as a ball player would, and when they do, our passing becomes too lethargic, both of which results in long balls or balls out to wide areas. Possession football for me stems from the midfield and I feel we are never gonna play possession football and control the tempo with Hendo, Can and Milner as our midfielders.

      Initially, I was worried that Benteke wouldn't adapt to our play style( Rodgers' attacking philosophy), a player that isn't as fluid and creative, but more of a target man, but taking into account the 3 games we have played with our main team, it seems as if Rodgers wants us to adapt to Benteke and intends for us to develop a quick attacking brand of football, something that's similar to 13/14 season but with more rigid positions and less pressing?

      I do have question marks over this system. The style of play could be detrimental to our best players. Coutinho, and probably Firmino are more comfortable and suited to playing possession football, Hendo and Milner are not playing to the best of their ability, and the way I see it, it's neither a defensive counter attack style, nor possession controlled based game, so how would it fair vs the other bigger teams?

      What I don't understand is, with the players we have, why don't we look more into the pressing game? A high pressing game would surely be perfect and bring out the best in our players? Firmino, Lallana, Hendo, Milner are absolutely beastly at pressing and we would probably be even better than 13/14 season. Though high pressing game does require a DM, but Rodgers believes Can can play that role, so why don't we go for a 442 diamond and give it a try?

      HScRed1
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #551: Aug 18, 2015 08:00:11 pm
      Last 3 games (including Helsinki), we were too negative in our passing. Our midfielders don't drop deep as often as a ball player would, and when they do, our passing becomes too lethargic, both of which results in long balls or balls out to wide areas. Possession football for me stems from the midfield and I feel we are never gonna play possession football and control the tempo with Hendo, Can and Milner as our midfielders.

      Initially, I was worried that Benteke wouldn't adapt to our play style( Rodgers' attacking philosophy), a player that isn't as fluid and creative, but more of a target man, but taking into account the 3 games we have played with our main team, it seems as if Rodgers wants us to adapt to Benteke and intends for us to develop a quick attacking brand of football, something that's similar to 13/14 season but with more rigid positions and less pressing?

      I do have question marks over this system. The style of play could be detrimental to our best players. Coutinho, and probably Firmino are more comfortable and suited to playing possession football, Hendo and Milner are not playing to the best of their ability, and the way I see it, it's neither a defensive counter attack style, nor possession controlled based game, so how would it fair vs the other bigger teams?

      What I don't understand is, with the players we have, why don't we look more into the pressing game? A high pressing game would surely be perfect and bring out the best in our players? Firmino, Lallana, Hendo, Milner are absolutely beastly at pressing and we would probably be even better than 13/14 season. Though high pressing game does require a DM, but Rodgers believes Can can play that role, so why don't we go for a 442 diamond and give it a try?



      Agree with your post, however in regard to your last paragraph we do press but not as a team, so yesterday there was glimpses of Milner and then Lallana running around like headless chickens because they were pressing in isolation. This in turn mean Bournemouth found it very easy to bypass our press.

      Not sure exactly what the answer is if our players don't have the intelligence to press as a unit  ???

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