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      Tactics geeks of the world unite...

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      HScRed1
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #644: Nov 12, 2015 11:25:25 am
      Jürgen has got the team pressing high up the pitch which in turn has resulted in most teams lumping it back hence the high posession stats.

      It's all well having the ball without much penetration in the final third.

      Lucas, Can, Lallana, Firmino and Ibe have zero PL goals this season, Milner may have 1. Here lies our problem how to get more goals out of the attacking Midfielders which is even more necessary on the days when our strikers are having a off day.

      Sturridge is still a major loss as his strike rate can cover the deficiencies of our midfielders.
      The return of Hendo will be a big plus as he will contribute, I am confident Firmino will start to bag a few, Ibe is young so probably shouldn't have too much pressure put on his shoulders.
      This leaves the likes of Milner and Lallana and I'm not too confident of their ability to start scoring regularly and esp Lallana who seems a luxury player to me.

      Scottbot
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #645: Dec 13, 2015 09:16:10 pm
      I'd almost rather we played all of our games away from home until the manager can get a couple of his own players in during the window given the issues at Anfield this season. I can't remember the last time the lads really put in a performance at Anfield. We've been awesome away for home since Klopp came in, pressing teams, breaking at pace, moving the ball quickly and pretty organised defensively. But at home it has been the complete opposite. The opposition simply sit in, let us play in front of them, invite the two full backs to have as much of the ball as they want and limit us to crosses and long shots.

      It's a tactical dilemma for the manager and with the personnel available I'm not sure how he will overcome it. I'm not sure if more of the same will cut it and reckon a change of formation or approach might be necessary.

      The false 9 approach worked very nicely away to Chelsea and again at City and maybe it's worth a shot at home? Take today for example, Tony Pulis sides eat crosses for breakfast and their CBs would have loved matching up to Benteke, in fact that's pretty much what they face in training every day. I suspect they would have had a harder time had we flooded the midfield and had Coutinho or Firmino floating about all over the place.

      The other option would be to play two up, it doesn't appear to be Jürgen's preference but given our lack of genuine creativity I wouldn't mind seeing young Ibe up there with Benteke. You could ask Ibe to play on the shoulder and Benteke to drop off and link play. Even if we don't start with 2 I think it should be an option for later in the game.
      bigmick
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #646: Dec 13, 2015 09:34:59 pm
      It's a tricky one Scottie, and of course you are absolutely spot on about our full backs. Funnily enough we were much harder to shut out like West Brom did for long periods of today when we had Glen Johnson at right back. Given the room they gave Clyne he would have come inside and hit it all day long. I'm not saying I don't think Clyne is a better player because he clearly is these days (one of my favourites in our team infact), but it's about the type of threat they provide. Equally, now Gerrard isn't around anymore we don't really possess a player who represents a threat at hitting it from outside the area. You could argue that Coutinho does, but it's with nothing like the regularity that Gerrard did in his pomp.

      The bi-product of all that is teams can sit right in against us and not even really bother pressing the ball too much. They'll reason that nobody is going to hit it from distance and damage them, neither of the full backs is going to either zip down the wing and ping a cross over or come inside and shoot, and as long as they get enough bodies around Benteke or Origi to nullify the "knock down" option, they can defend on their own penalty spot. Funnily enough we demonstrated perfectly the best way to get round the system with our first goal. You need a ball into someone other than the heavily marked front man, a simple knock down and a second phase runner ready to sweep it in. Unfortunately that's another area we lack in, that was an unusually penetrating and threatening run from Henderson. Mostly our midfielders don't get into goalscoring positions.

      So how do we improve it? Well we do have the option of not playing a Benteke or an Origi at all as many have suggested, trying to pass and fiddle our way through the gaps. I personally don't think this is the answer, but I suppose we could give it a go. The other option is to do exactly what we did for the first goal today, only more regularly and with a couple of add ons. Firstly I'd have the lads out practicing shooting from range. Firmino looks to me like he can dig it, and I'd like to see us working on some patterns where he loops in behind the man with his back to goal in possession, ready for the roll back and first time hit. He only needs to score a couple or get close to doing it and the defence will begin to close him down, that's good though as it draws one or two of them out the line at least. I'd like to see us properly overlap with fullbacks and cross on the run, get the ball flying accross the box at various heights. Lastly I'd like to see us do what we did today for the first goal, get midfielders arriving in the box looking for scraps.

      Every action in football has a positive and a negative reaction. At the moment we're letting teams defend ridiculously deep against us and reap all the positives which it offers. We aren't though inflicting any of the negatives, play a bit smarter and they'll think twice about defending on the edge of their own box all the time.         
      HScRed1
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #647: Dec 13, 2015 10:39:14 pm
      With a Pulis type of set up you need quick agile players not a big lump who In fact got out muscled by their CB's. You need quick 1-2's and interchange of play, everything you don't get with a lamppost playing up front.

      Width is very important to stretch the opposition from side to side than just going straight down the congested middle. This is what the likes of Barca face every week, not that I am comparing us to Barca but the principle is the same.

      It's such a myth that to play teams who park the bus you need a big lump up front. If anything you need the opposite.
      waltonl4
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #648: Dec 13, 2015 10:42:24 pm
      With a Pulis type of set up you need quick agile players not a big lump who In fact got out muscled by their CB's. You need quick 1-2's and interchange of play, everything you don't get with a lamppost playing up front.

      Width is very important to stretch the opposition from side to side than just going straight down the congested middle. This is what the likes of Barca face every week, not that I am comparing us to Barca but the principle is the same.

      It's such a myth that to play teams who park the bus you need a big lump up front. If anything you need the opposite.

      our big lump wasn't as big as their two big lumps was he . Having Couthino buzzing around them would have caused them more problems than Benteke did
      PurpleMonkey
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #649: Dec 14, 2015 12:42:13 am
      Width is very important to stretch the opposition from side to side than just going straight down the congested middle. This is what the likes of Barca face every week, not that I am comparing us to Barca but the principle is the same.

      It's such a myth that to play teams who park the bus you need a big lump up front. If anything you need the opposite.

      A myth indeed!! Absolutely agree with you.

      Width and a striker with that intelligence to attack the space, and that desire to move in front of the defender is all you need vs parked teams. I don't recall Fowler, Owen or Suarez being big and physical, do you?
      ruthcity
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #650: Dec 14, 2015 11:07:54 am
      A myth indeed!! Absolutely agree with you.

      Width and a striker with that intelligence to attack the space, and that desire to move in front of the defender is all you need vs parked teams. I don't recall Fowler, Owen or Suarez being big and physical, do you?
      Did you mean any available space? Because spaces are sometimes tight when teams park.
      Scottbot
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #651: Dec 18, 2015 07:51:04 pm


      So how do we improve it? Well we do have the option of not playing a Benteke or an Origi at all as many have suggested, trying to pass and fiddle our way through the gaps. I personally don't think this is the answer, but I suppose we could give it a go. The other option is to do exactly what we did for the first goal today, only more regularly and with a couple of add ons. Firstly I'd have the lads out practicing shooting from range. Firmino looks to me like he can dig it, and I'd like to see us working on some patterns where he loops in behind the man with his back to goal in possession, ready for the roll back and first time hit. He only needs to score a couple or get close to doing it and the defence will begin to close him down, that's good though as it draws one or two of them out the line at least. I'd like to see us properly overlap with fullbacks and cross on the run, get the ball flying accross the box at various heights. Lastly I'd like to see us do what we did today for the first goal, get midfielders arriving in the box looking for scraps.

      Every action in football has a positive and a negative reaction. At the moment we're letting teams defend ridiculously deep against us and reap all the positives which it offers. We aren't though inflicting any of the negatives, play a bit smarter and they'll think twice about defending on the edge of their own box all the time.         

      Good post mate, I was waiting for a minute to reply. Completely agree about the middies getting into the box to get on the end of things. Henderson has all the attributes to be a Lampard type of player (he makes good runs, he can get beyond the frontman and he has got great energy) but unfortunately the lad can't finish for toffee. Despite that I'd love to see him playing further forward and with a bit more abandon, you never know he might just score a few and we see some confidence in front of goal.

      As an alternative I still wonder if it might be worth taking a little look at Young Ibe in a 9 shirt. He's got some great attributes for the role, I can't see there is anything to lose in taking a look. One thing is certain, he will worry centre-halves, particularly if he gets turned and then squares them up. He goes past fullbacks, I reckon he could do the same more centrally and his shooting is no worse than many others in the squad.
      TheleftpegofRayKennedy
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #652: Dec 19, 2015 11:59:28 am
      I think Ibe as a striker is an interesting idea, but isn't it sad that a club with our history of strikers might be looking at this as a n option (injuries notwithstanding)? 

      I agree that Henderson arriving late into the box is promising, and I also agree that our shooting from distance has been dreadful and is one way that we should be looking to get around the 'park the bus' teams. 

      I've been championing Lallana recently, who's been excellent, aside from his lack of goals.  Somehow we need to get him into more scoring positions.  How about him as a false 9?
      harrydunn08
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #653: Dec 21, 2015 12:17:54 am
      I think Jürgen needs to rethink his tactics against teams we know will sit deep and play long ball.  Perhaps a more pragmatic pressing game with more emphasis on possession, ball retention, and sustained attacking pressure.  I wouldn't mind seeing Origi partner Benteke up front against Leicester in a traditional 4-4-2, but regardless of how we setup, there needs to be a better game plan for what we do with the ball instead of only trying to play without the ball as Klopp says is his preference.....
      waltonl4
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #654: Dec 21, 2015 12:26:10 am
      I think Jürgen needs to rethink his tactics against teams we know will sit deep and play long ball.  Perhaps a more pragmatic pressing game with more emphasis on possession, ball retention, and sustained attacking pressure.  I wouldn't mind seeing Origi partner Benteke up front against Leicester in a traditional 4-4-2, but regardless of how we setup, there needs to be a better game plan for what we do with the ball instead of only trying to play without the ball as Klopp says is his preference.....

      think we had 70% possession at times similar to WBA. Tactics don't win or lose games players do and we need to stop making excuses for players who are not good enough
      TheleftpegofRayKennedy
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #655: Jan 03, 2016 11:38:55 am

      I love this thread!  Thought I'd throw a hand grenade in to warm it up again... ;)

      'Benteke isolated,'  is a phrase I heard a lot yesterday.  And the lack of teeth in attack was obvious.  So here's my solution, given that we don't have a wealth of striker options:

      Adam Lallana, a player who I was excited abut when he signed, has had far less impact than we hoped.  At Southampton, he played more as a second striker to a big lad and got plaudits, goals and assists.

      Why not play him as a strike partner close to Benteke, in a 442 when we play the scrappy sides - the kind we've struggled against?

      My only concern is that our midfield is so lightweight and un-dynamic (given current injuries, especially), that he'd end up dropping deep to reinforce anyway.  But it feels like an obvious option.

      Drop one of Firmino or Coutinho, we can't afford the luxury of both in these sorts of matches.
      MIRO
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #656: Jan 03, 2016 11:47:02 am
      put the needle on the record .......

      4-4-2
      waltonl4
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #657: Jan 03, 2016 11:49:20 am
      think we had 70% possession at times similar to WBA. Tactics don't win or lose games players do and we need to stop making excuses for players who are not good enough

      think I may as well just keep posting this
      MarkMitt
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #658: Jan 03, 2016 02:03:09 pm
      think I may as well just keep posting this

      Yep. Too many under achievers in the team currently. Guess that what happens when they're guaranteed an easy income.

      Time to clear the rubbish out...

      TheleftpegofRayKennedy
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #659: Jan 03, 2016 03:44:13 pm
      put the needle on the record .......

      4-4-2

      Put the needle on the record?  We lose in repetitive, miserable, gutless fashion to Watford, West Ham, Newcastle and draw with WBA and despite the dreamers who say we should be buying megastars, we've no real chance of buying somebody who'll make a massive difference in January. 
      Change the bloody tactics.  Drop people.  Bring in some hungry lads.  Play people where they make the most difference.
      What do you suggest?
      PurpleMonkey
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #660: Jan 03, 2016 06:38:35 pm
      Play people where they make the most difference.

      I keep saying it, why don't we use the diamond and play our industrial players to their natural style with less emphasis on ball playing? Would this not bring out the best in Can, Hendo, Milner or Allen? Lucas and Coutinho will be the main focal points as the 6 and 10 and covering our industrial players deficiencies, vice versa too. Essentially, we will have 4 in midfield, but most importantly, it will be balanced with our midfielders with more specific roles and possibly in a more comfortable playing environment.

      I don't think a 2 man midfield is good enough, we don't have the quality for that, we need 3 or 4 to cover each others deficiencies imo, and if we get the middle right, I think we'll become more consistent and stronger.


      Norfolk Red
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #661: Jan 03, 2016 06:44:23 pm
      Yep. Too many under achievers in the team currently. Guess that what happens when they're guaranteed an easy income.

      Time to clear the rubbish out...



      The problem is, if we clear the rubbish out, there will not be a lot left.
      Think it is going to be a few transfer windows before we start to show any kind of consistency.
      Could be a painful time, but I'm convinced Jürgen will get us there.
      TheleftpegofRayKennedy
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #662: Jan 03, 2016 06:54:37 pm
      I keep saying it, why don't we use the diamond and play our industrial players to their natural style with less emphasis on ball playing? Would this not bring out the best in Can, Hendo, Milner or Allen? Lucas and Coutinho will be the main focal points as the 6 and 10 and covering our industrial players deficiencies, vice versa too. Essentially, we will have 4 in midfield, but most importantly, it will be balanced with our midfielders with more specific roles and possibly in a more comfortable playing environment.

      I don't think a 2 man midfield is good enough, we don't have the quality for that, we need 3 or 4 to cover each others deficiencies imo, and if we get the middle right, I think we'll become more consistent and stronger.

      Yes, I agree.  Too many number 10's means we are light in the engine room.  A diamond worked well for BR for a while but then he abandoned it.  It gives us control in the middle, and a focal point for attacks.  It also allows 2 strikers.  The worry is it might expose the full backs maybe more than Moreno can take!  His flank gets exposed enough already.  That means getting a more defensive left back (or a fit Flanno) or trusting the left mid to cover - which Milner (if fit) is capable of.
      Scottbot
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #663: Jan 03, 2016 07:05:23 pm
      A diamond is a great shout, in Henderson, Milner and Allen you have got your choice of mobile players with good engines. I'm not sure Can is quite so suited given he isn't the fittest or the most mobile of players (although this has got better)

      I'd be tempted to run with:


      Clyne         Lovren.      Sakho.        Smith


                               Lucas

                 Milner.                  Can

                             Coutinho


                      Benteke.     Ibe
      HScRed1
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #664: Jan 03, 2016 07:22:02 pm
      Pretty sure we played the diamond when we tore Saints to shreds, only issue is still Benteke's lack of movement even with the diamond so if we go that way I would be happier with Firmino replacing the big lump.

      Of course if Sturridge returning should automatically demote Benteke to the bench.
      PurpleMonkey
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #665: Jan 03, 2016 09:49:11 pm
      The worry is it might expose the full backs maybe more than Moreno can take!  His flank gets exposed enough already.

      I personally think it'll be ok and not a major concern under Klopp. We'll shift as a team to the attacking side with Lucas & box-box covering mainly on their attacking side while our other box-box will be more centrally and wary of the switch of play. Our #10 will be closer to their DLPM if they have one too. We just need to be disciplined defensively throughout.

      I just find it baffling why Rodgers and Klopp rarely looked into the diamond 442. Our pressing game will be more suited and effective playing 2/4 exceptionally hard working midfielders we have.
      MIRO
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #666: Jan 04, 2016 06:38:55 pm
      The problem is NOT the defence ......

      Only five teams have scored fewer than Liverpool's 22 league goals this season - and three of them are in the bottom four - and that paltry return marks a new low in the history of the club.

      https://twitter.com/LFChistory/status/683482561402810368

      In the whole history of our club NEVER have we scored fewer goals at this stage of the season after 20 games!


      So ...

      Its the defence
      the midfield
      the goalie

      and

      the attack.


      In Jürgen we trust  ...........
      « Last Edit: Feb 04, 2016 09:45:53 am by JD »

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