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      Tactics geeks of the world unite...

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      Scottbot
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #750: Nov 21, 2017 10:22:41 pm
      Tactics kill us every time we need to simply dig in and spoil a game. I'm not sure if a Jürgen team is capable of it. A lot of posters getting stuck into the midfield, into Moreno, into Henderson etc and sure there were some individual errors BUT ask yourself what would a mourinho team (as much as I hate to say it) do in that second half? They would drop off, deny any space, let the opposition back four have all the time in the world, screen their front players and turn the game ugly.

      Why can't we do it? You have got to have that in your locker and tonight was the time to do it. Is it because our players spend so much time on Gegen-pressing that they simply don't have it in them to drop and screen? I watched our forward players tonight during the 2nd half, yes they put in a shift trying to defend but all too often you see them come out to half press defenders on the ball at the half way line only to be caught out in front of the ball and out of position two passes later. There is ALWAYS space for opposition teams when they play us, always a chance, always some hope. Our back line should be sitting edge of the area, middies just in front of them, our front players should be dropping off with eyes in the back of their head screening the danger men in the other side. And for fucks sake if there is a player like Banega running the game thenget frickin closer to the guy, get a player on his heels, a player on his toes and don't give him the time to get his head up and pick a pass for 45 minutes like we did tonight.

      You can see that Klopp has made some adjustments defensively, the full backs seem a little less adventurous and we have looked a bit more compact, slightly less gung-ho but tonight was embarrassing. Parking the bus is the easiest thing in the world to coach but we don't seem capable of it.
      HScRed1
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #751: Nov 22, 2017 08:13:46 am
      Players with a few brain cells would help.

      Knowing we are under the pump not one forward took it upon themselves to to hold onto the ball rather than play some risky pass or run into a corner and turn the ball over.
      Coutinho again highlighted his limitations in midfield, bypassing his duties by wanting to play as a forward.

      Simple template to playing against us, press aggressively and the likes of Gini and more so Henderson will sh*t they're pants.

      The third goal was so bad, when you need a cool head to put his foot onto the ball and play out the last few minutes, Henderson with acres of space and time knowing he needs a couple of touches to bring the ball under control just hoofs it up field, a simple pass out to the full back and the ball played a few times along the back line we would have been home 2-3.

      Keita can not arrive soon enough. A player who can turn with the ball, put in a tackle and comfortable holding onto the ball.
      Scotia
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #752: Nov 22, 2017 08:18:13 am

      Coutinho again highlighted his limitations in midfield, bypassing his duties by wanting to play as a forward.


      This part I agree with.

      He was self-indulgent last night - especially in second half but also in first.

      Rather than comparing Henderson and Banega some geniuses might wanna consider what impact the little Argentine (on that form) would have had in Cou’s place.
      HScRed1
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #753: Nov 22, 2017 08:52:49 am
      This part I agree with.

      He was self-indulgent last night - especially in second half but also in first.

      Rather than comparing Henderson and Banega some geniuses might wanna consider what impact the little Argentine (on that form) would have had in Cou’s place.


      No idea why posters are comparing a No10 to a No6.

      I wouldn't be surprised if it was Coutinho's job to stay on Banega and given the amount of time he was getting on the ball it's no surprise Coutinho was hooked and rightly so.

      Scottbot
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #754: Nov 22, 2017 09:27:40 am
      No idea why posters are comparing a No10 to a No6.

      I wouldn't be surprised if it was Coutinho's job to stay on Banega and given the amount of time he was getting on the ball it's no surprise Coutinho was hooked and rightly so.



      I strongly suspect he wasn't mate, I don't think Jürgen is the sort of manager who hands out specific defensive assignments, especially not to players like Coutinho.

      I think people are too quick to simply point the finger at this player or that player as if changing that one person would have meant for a different results. It's our tactics defensively that cost us. A player like Van Dyke would certainly help us at set pieces (I'm sure he would have a real impact in that department) but from open play I guarantee he will be exposed and asked to play in space against quicker more mobile players. It's the nature of how we play and are set up. Jürgen said that we are the sort of team that 'have to control the game with the ball' rather than being able to control a game without it (which is what Mourinho has been doing for years). I duisagree, we should be able to flick the switch and be comfortable to play without the ball for stretches of a game, play compact, drop deep and be comfortable not to see much of the ball. It's frustrating.
      HScRed1
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #755: Nov 22, 2017 09:42:23 am
      I strongly suspect he wasn't mate, I don't think Jürgen is the sort of manager who hands out specific defensive assignments, especially not to players like Coutinho.

      I think people are too quick to simply point the finger at this player or that player as if changing that one person would have meant for a different results. It's our tactics defensively that cost us. A player like Van Dyke would certainly help us at set pieces (I'm sure he would have a real impact in that department) but from open play I guarantee he will be exposed and asked to play in space against quicker more mobile players. It's the nature of how we play and are set up. Jürgen said that we are the sort of team that 'have to control the game with the ball' rather than being able to control a game without it (which is what Mourinho has been doing for years). I duisagree, we should be able to flick the switch and be comfortable to play without the ball for stretches of a game, play compact, drop deep and be comfortable not to see much of the ball. It's frustrating.

      I'm not talking about a man marking job but the fact that Banega was being given a free ride I'm sure was one of the reasons Coutinho was hooked along with him being so wasteful.
      Can brought on to offer a bit more protection sort if worked till the last 60s of madness.
      Scottbot
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #756: Nov 22, 2017 12:57:18 pm
      I'm not talking about a man marking job but the fact that Banega was being given a free ride I'm sure was one of the reasons Coutinho was hooked along with him being so wasteful.
      Can brought on to offer a bit more protection sort if worked till the last 60s of madness.


      Yes mate, we regained a modicum of control in the game after the subs and it was good to see Klopp respond a bit more quickly as there have been times in the past where the changes have come too late. In truth we should have scored a 4th goal, we certainly had a couple of opportunities at 3-2 to close the game out. But even after the changes Benega still had all day to pick a pass. On another note he is player I have admired for years and years, would have loved to have seen him in a Red shirt.
      Scotia
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #757: Nov 22, 2017 01:00:13 pm
      Yes mate, we regained a modicum of control in the game after the subs and it was good to see Klopp respond a bit more quickly as there have been times in the past where the changes have come too late. In truth we should have scored a 4th goal, we certainly had a couple of opportunities at 3-2 to close the game out. But even after the changes Benega still had all day to pick a pass. On another note he is player I have admired for years and years, would have loved to have seen him in a Red shirt.

      He’s a talent no doubt but I feel last night was his very, very best and maybe a little misleading.

      I’ve seen him be a huffy, petulant little f#cker too and offer hee haw........
      trebor12
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #758: Nov 22, 2017 07:43:05 pm
      To be honest I don't think any left sided CB in the league  would want to play next to Moreno. As much has he has improved a little so far this season, for me it's about his football brain (or lack of) and the way we set up and tactics all rolled into one. The role of the full back is to cover that side of the pitch against primarily on coming attacks, well that's my take on it. My take on it is the full back has to defend or stop that oncoming attack before it gets to the next defender or CB and Moreno can't do that and even VVD won't be able to cope with that I don't think. I really thought that's what defending in a team was, well it was when ever I played. I mean if you have a defencive midfielder surely his job is to break up attacking play before it gets to the "danger zone". Our goalkeeper is the last line of defence isn't it. It's about trying to stop that ball from hitting the onion bag. Our players don't seem to want to take on responsibility. If the keeper has little to do in a game then that's good defending isn't it. Then there's no wonder our back 5 have arses you couldn't get a rizla paper in. We don't set up to defend and I have to blame the tactics. The high line, the high press, gegen or whatever you call it and it's starting to get on my last f**king nerve if I'm honest. I think the majority on here would defend Klopp cos he's a character and smiley and that. I for one think that the way we play we are light years away from the promised land. Unless he changes things we can have the most expensive players in defencive positions that we can buy and we would still make the same mistakes. Slaughter me if you want. Our attack looks sublime, some would say the best in the league but Cups and titles are not won with just a good attack.
      crouchinho
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #759: Nov 30, 2017 01:48:17 am
      After tonight, anyone else liking the idea of sticking to the 4-2-3-1 rather than the 4-3-3(ish) formation we use?

      Having two midfielders sit deeper and pick their moments to get forward seemed to look more fluid than having just the one sitting deep and letting two others get forward. Also freed up AOC to roam and impact the game between the lines.

      Having Coutinho in place of AOC would allow us to have our four best players on the pitch at once and closer together.

      Moving forward we could have Keita, who plays behind the ball, alongside (probably) Henderson which restricts the amount of ground Hendo would be liable for and not put so much emphasis on him protecting our back four. Also plays to his strengths further up the pitch.

      Keita    Henderson

      Salah     Coutinho     Mane

      Firmino

      Giving our centre backs more options to find an outlet, rather than just Hendo or their fullback, would invite less pressure on us when we have the ball.
      HScRed1
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #760: Dec 06, 2017 11:54:31 pm
      After tonight, anyone else liking the idea of sticking to the 4-2-3-1 rather than the 4-3-3(ish) formation we use?

      Having two midfielders sit deeper and pick their moments to get forward seemed to look more fluid than having just the one sitting deep and letting two others get forward. Also freed up AOC to roam and impact the game between the lines.

      Having Coutinho in place of AOC would allow us to have our four best players on the pitch at once and closer together.

      Moving forward we could have Keita, who plays behind the ball, alongside (probably) Henderson which restricts the amount of ground Hendo would be liable for and not put so much emphasis on him protecting our back four. Also plays to his strengths further up the pitch.

      Keita    Henderson

      Salah     Coutinho     Mane

      Firmino

      Giving our centre backs more options to find an outlet, rather than just Hendo or their fullback, would invite less pressure on us when we have the ball.

      PurpleMonkey
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #761: Dec 07, 2017 12:07:49 am
      Having two midfielders sit deeper and pick their moments to get forward seemed to look more fluid than having just the one sitting deep and letting two others get forward. Also freed up AOC to roam and impact the game between the lines.

      Pretty much how Wijnaldum , Can and Coutinho played today, right?
      crouchinho
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #762: Dec 07, 2017 12:16:00 am
      Pretty much how Wijnaldum , Can and Coutinho played today, right?

      I think we almost played a 4-4-2 tonight?

      Salah and Firmino up top with Mane and Phil occupying the flanks most of the time.

      But the midfield having two men sit deeper was definitely used tonight. Worked a treat. Will work even better when we have elite midfielders in there (i.e. Keita).

      Hope it continues!
      Harrisimo
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #763: Dec 07, 2017 12:19:41 am
      Roy Keane, nark that he is, makes the point that we haven't really beaten anybody yet. Obviously we are all flushed with success but does he have a fair point.

      Klopp can't just chop and change the defense and unleash the awesome foursome on the likes of PSG, B.Munich, City or United,R.Madrid,Barca..Chelsea even and expect to outpace and out score these top teams. These teams can do just as much damage as us and they have better organised defences.

      May be 3 in central with the two wing backs gives more protection against better teams. Playing Can deep gives him options, in that he has that extra defender who can play . I said 4/5 weeks ago that Sir Bob would've looked at Hendo as a possible central defender in the latter part of Hendo's career.

      To make serious progress in this C/L and beyond Klopp will need to decide on game plan, be it 3 + wing backs and play this type of line up and get it right.

      We have to prove Keane the Nark wrong.
      HScRed1
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #764: Dec 07, 2017 12:25:06 am
      Roy Keane, nark that he is, makes the point that we haven't really beaten anybody yet. Obviously we are all flushed with success but does he have a fair point.

      Klopp can't just chop and change the defense and unleash the awesome foursome on the likes of PSG, B.Munich, City or United,R.Madrid,Barca..Chelsea even and expect to outpace and out score these top teams. These teams can do just as much damage as us and they have better organised defences.

      May be 3 in central with the two wing backs gives more protection against better teams. Playing Can deep gives him options, in that he has that extra defender who can play . I said 4/5 weeks ago that Sir Bob would've looked at Hendo as a possible central defender in the latter part of Hendo's career.

      To make serious progress in this C/L and beyond Klopp will need to decide on game plan, be it 3 + wing backs and play this type of line up and get it right.

      We have to prove Keane the Nark wrong.


      Somebody should ask the tactical genius what he did with ROI.

      Harrisimo
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #765: Dec 07, 2017 12:38:43 am

      Somebody should ask the tactical genius what he did with ROI.

      Well yes and I remember Keane having a pop at pundits saying he would never stoop to that for a living or words to that effect.

      But we did get done at Spurs & City and games like tonight won't mean that much if we don't progress and to do that we have to an all round team. We are getting there but we do need to prove it defensively. Klopp trying different tactics, team selection, putting together a squad that can cope with rotation. Rotating the attack will help prevent hamstring and other injuries but we need more stability in defense
      Robby The Z
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #766: Dec 07, 2017 02:18:16 am
      Roy Keane has been reduced to just playing a part, and his role is to try to stick a finger in the eye of Liverpool fans. I would suggest ignoring him. He can get bent.
      Danzel
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #767: Dec 07, 2017 09:45:31 pm
      I think we almost played a 4-4-2 tonight?

      Salah and Firmino up top with Mane and Phil occupying the flanks most of the time.

      But the midfield having two men sit deeper was definitely used tonight. Worked a treat. Will work even better when we have elite midfielders in there (i.e. Keita).

      Hope it continues!

      Klopp actually mentioned after the game that we played a 'defensive' 4-4-1-1.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3B585VZL6so

      6:36 onwards, he explains it.

      "The best way not to lose, is to win." - Klopp

      Mourinho could learn a thing or two with his bus parking tactics hoping not to lose.

      I like the midfield pair of Wijnaldum - Can a lot by the way. The two of them seem to work together pretty well. Both had good games.
      FATKOPITE10
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #768: Dec 07, 2017 09:52:00 pm
      Still think it's too easy for opposing teams to find space between midfield and the back four, players like hazard gave us a lot of problems like this and they tend to drop off and not get picked up
      HScRed1
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #769: Dec 07, 2017 10:10:26 pm
      Still think it's too easy for opposing teams to find space between midfield and the back four, players like hazard gave us a lot of problems like this and they tend to drop off and not get picked up

      That is one of the quandaries of playing Coutinho in midfield against the best teams does he do enough defensively.
      Against the sh*te he is untouchable.

      crouchinho
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #770: Dec 07, 2017 10:20:12 pm
      Still think it's too easy for opposing teams to find space between midfield and the back four, players like hazard gave us a lot of problems like this and they tend to drop off and not get picked up

      Agree. It does annoy me how one pass seems to bypass our entire midfield at times.

      I do think it's a lot to do with personnel, though. Keita plays behind the ball a lot from what i've seen so that will be huge for us in terms of keeping things tight.

      Klopp actually mentioned after the game that we played a 'defensive' 4-4-1-1.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3B585VZL6so

      6:36 onwards, he explains it.

      "The best way not to lose, is to win." - Klopp

      Mourinho could learn a thing or two with his bus parking tactics hoping not to lose.

      I like the midfield pair of Wijnaldum - Can a lot by the way. The two of them seem to work together pretty well. Both had good games.

      I think it's my preferred partnership at the moment. They're not world beaters together but they're doing a solid job.
      PurpleMonkey
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #771: Dec 07, 2017 10:23:11 pm
      That is one of the quandaries of playing Coutinho in midfield against the best teams does he do enough defensively.
      Against the sh*te he is untouchable.



      Vs strong opposition, have we actually played with 2 x #6's like how we did vs Sparta? I am not sure we have? Maybe if we did, they wouldn't have as much space in those pockets?
      Harrisimo
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #772: Dec 08, 2017 10:40:54 am
      Think he will start with the Fab4 with Hendo and Gini in midfield. Hard to leave Can out as he is playing better and his power from midfield in impressive but he does get a bit high, and for this game maybe Gini, who holds his position more, might be the call.

      That obviously means Coutinho supporting down the left giving the full back support. I don't see a clash between Mane and Salah for the right sided attack. They both can interchange and link up with Bob, Salah can drift inside and generally they can play it off the cuff. Hard to pin down anyone of the 4.

      Still could be close but 3-1, 2-0 could be the outcome.
      Danzel
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #773: Jan 17, 2018 07:26:15 pm
      A video of the different pressing formations / structures we used in the City game. Look at how organised and well drilled that pressing is. Brilliant to watch.

      Look at how the players are constantly checking their surroundings, looking to their teammates, looking for pressingtriggers, timing their runs to perfection.

      That's also one of the reasons why Klopp slowly introduces new players into the team and why it took a while for Chamberlain to start in midfield. He was very good against City and was a very big part of our pressing game.

      Can was phenomenal.

      https://vimeo.com/251122907
      crouchinho
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #774: Jan 18, 2018 12:46:08 am
      A video of the different pressing formations / structures we used in the City game. Look at how organised and well drilled that pressing is. Brilliant to watch.

      Look at how the players are constantly checking their surroundings, looking to their teammates, looking for pressingtriggers, timing their runs to perfection.

      That's also one of the reasons why Klopp slowly introduces new players into the team and why it took a while for Chamberlain to start in midfield. He was very good against City and was a very big part of our pressing game.

      Can was phenomenal.

      https://vimeo.com/251122907

      After tonight, anyone else liking the idea of sticking to the 4-2-3-1 rather than the 4-3-3(ish) formation we use?

      I mentioned this in more of an attacking sense but i'm a huge fan of this system, especially with the players we have at our disposal.

      Robby The Z
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #775: Jan 19, 2018 02:47:00 am
      A video of the different pressing formations / structures we used in the City game. Look at how organised and well drilled that pressing is. Brilliant to watch.

      Look at how the players are constantly checking their surroundings, looking to their teammates, looking for pressingtriggers, timing their runs to perfection.

      That's also one of the reasons why Klopp slowly introduces new players into the team and why it took a while for Chamberlain to start in midfield. He was very good against City and was a very big part of our pressing game.

      Can was phenomenal.

      https://vimeo.com/251122907

      This is so well done. It also has me thinking of what goes on in the last 5-10 minutes of some of these games. James Milner talked about being boring and killing games, but that usually is translated sitting back, putting in another center back and or another holding mid. You look at the City game, against the most talented team in the league, and you see just how the defending truly does start at the front. Then at the end, with subbing on Milner and Lallana, you don't see that kind of organization, and of course they enjoyed more success and made it a tight game. I wonder if the emphasis at the end should be more about pressing than about "being boring." I understand there will be fatigue issues toward the end, but shouldn't the emphasis on subs be on players who can keep the press going. And maybe it is, I don't know but I look at that video (and I've watched the match 4 times now) and I see they were mainly contained because they couldn't build out of the back.
      skamp
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #776: Jan 19, 2018 09:36:20 am
      Is there an issue that the intensity of the pressing in the first 75 mins (and it was intense, even if selective)  meant we ran out of steam a bit towards the end?  If we could press like that for 90 mins, we'd win an awful lot of games and not concede too many.
      Danzel
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #777: Jan 19, 2018 04:05:08 pm
      I mentioned this in more of an attacking sense but i'm a huge fan of this system, especially with the players we have at our disposal.

      I like the 4-2-3-1 system too, it's perfect for pressing as shown in the video and he used it at Dortmund all the time. I however don't fully agree that it's the best system for us to use offensively. Who would you play as the #9 and who would you play as the #10 in that system? You'd need two players that can interchange well. A traditional #10 in that system would occupy the space that Firmino likes to operate in. So unless the #10 is comfortable switching positions and running in behind the opposition defence, I think it would limit our attacking play and Firmino's strong points too much. I could see that work with a combination of Lallana and Firmino though, could be interesting.

      I don't think we've used that formation often when Firmino started up top? So far, from what I remember, we've only used it this season when Solanke was starting and Firmino wasn't. In terms of player profile Solanke is closest to what he had in Lewandowski for his 4-2-3-1.

      What I do like and what we've only started seeing this season, is the 4-4-2 / 4-2-4 or whatever formation you want to call it. We've got good wide players for that system in Mane and Chamberlain and with Firmino and Salah we've got two incredibly intelligent players who combine really well, can play of eachother and can drop deep / run in behind the defence.

      This is so well done. It also has me thinking of what goes on in the last 5-10 minutes of some of these games. James Milner talked about being boring and killing games, but that usually is translated sitting back, putting in another center back and or another holding mid. You look at the City game, against the most talented team in the league, and you see just how the defending truly does start at the front. Then at the end, with subbing on Milner and Lallana, you don't see that kind of organization, and of course they enjoyed more success and made it a tight game. I wonder if the emphasis at the end should be more about pressing than about "being boring." I understand there will be fatigue issues toward the end, but shouldn't the emphasis on subs be on players who can keep the press going. And maybe it is, I don't know but I look at that video (and I've watched the match 4 times now) and I see they were mainly contained because they couldn't build out of the back.

      I think the emphasis is on subs who can keep the press going. How often this season have we seen fans questioning Klopp's subs and in game management because we are still pressing late on in games rather than sitting back and closing out games the way the chavs and the mancs would for example?

      The issue is not what Klopp wants to do, the issue is the lack of depth in terms of players who can execute the press to the level our starting eleven can. Fatigue will always be a factor of course.

      If you look at the City game as an example. Due to illness Can was taken off and replaced by Milner and later on Salah by Lallana. All the tactical analysis shows how important Can was to our shape and pressing throughout the game. Klopp clearly wanted to keep it going, but Milner has neither the legs or the pace (plus he's also a poor tackler) to  execute it like Can did and that was a major issue.

      Look at how we conceded the second goal and who was easily beaten while trying to press. It's Milner. So the emphasis was still on pressing and the gameplan was still the same, that wasn't the issue. The issue was / is Milner not being good enough to execute the press. Had Can still been on the pitch in that situation, I'm fairly sure we wouldn't have conceded that goal.

      Going over our squad and our starting eleven, let's say this is our strongest starting eleven (when everyone is fit):

      Karius, Clyne, Matip, Van Dijk, Robertson (or Moreno), Can, Wijnaldum, Lallana, Mane, Salah and Firmino.

      Then you look at the bench, when fatigue starts to kick in. Who do you sub on when you want to keep the emphasis on pressing? Other than our starting eleven, we have only got two or three other players who can execute the press: Henderson and Chamberlain. The rest are good players (Milner, Sturridge, ...), but they're not what we need in a pressing side. You'll always have injuries and both Henderson and Lallana are out injured quite frequently, so our options there are pretty thin. Once Klopp is able to bring in more players (Keita will certainly help) who can execute the press too, we'll be a lot better later on in games. Our starting eleven is getting as close to a "Full Klopp side" as it gets, now it's time to improve the squad and for that the signing of Chamberlain for example was very important.

      The other problem is the kind of side you're facing. You can only press a side that allows themselves to be pressed. When bottom / midtable league teams are chasing goals, they don't play football like City did, they bypass the press and play long diagonal balls into our FB areas or into the box and try to win the second ball (we've conceded quite a few in this manner). In that situation pressing is pointless so the only solution is bringing on the extra CB / midfielder.

      We did to City what other teams regularly do to us, we bypassed the press by playing longballs in behind their midfield.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Onj-oYpYlac

      Here you see how important Wijnaldum and Chamberlain were in limiting Gündogan and more importantly De Bruyne. Wijnaldum was amazing and was tasked with man marking De Bruyne for spells during the game while also cutting off the supply to De Bruyne. It was only once Wijnaldum started to get tired, that De Bruyne managed to get into the game and get things going for City.
      « Last Edit: Jan 19, 2018 04:31:12 pm by Danzel »
      Robby The Z
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #778: Jan 20, 2018 02:50:16 am
      I like the 4-2-3-1 system too, it's perfect for pressing as shown in the video and he used it at Dortmund all the time. I however don't fully agree that it's the best system for us to use offensively. Who would you play as the #9 and who would you play as the #10 in that system? You'd need two players that can interchange well. A traditional #10 in that system would occupy the space that Firmino likes to operate in. So unless the #10 is comfortable switching positions and running in behind the opposition defence, I think it would limit our attacking play and Firmino's strong points too much. I could see that work with a combination of Lallana and Firmino though, could be interesting.

      I don't think we've used that formation often when Firmino started up top? So far, from what I remember, we've only used it this season when Solanke was starting and Firmino wasn't. In terms of player profile Solanke is closest to what he had in Lewandowski for his 4-2-3-1.

      What I do like and what we've only started seeing this season, is the 4-4-2 / 4-2-4 or whatever formation you want to call it. We've got good wide players for that system in Mane and Chamberlain and with Firmino and Salah we've got two incredibly intelligent players who combine really well, can play of eachother and can drop deep / run in behind the defence.

      I think the emphasis is on subs who can keep the press going. How often this season have we seen fans questioning Klopp's subs and in game management because we are still pressing late on in games rather than sitting back and closing out games the way the chavs and the mancs would for example?

      The issue is not what Klopp wants to do, the issue is the lack of depth in terms of players who can execute the press to the level our starting eleven can. Fatigue will always be a factor of course.

      If you look at the City game as an example. Due to illness Can was taken off and replaced by Milner and later on Salah by Lallana. All the tactical analysis shows how important Can was to our shape and pressing throughout the game. Klopp clearly wanted to keep it going, but Milner has neither the legs or the pace (plus he's also a poor tackler) to  execute it like Can did and that was a major issue.

      Look at how we conceded the second goal and who was easily beaten while trying to press. It's Milner. So the emphasis was still on pressing and the gameplan was still the same, that wasn't the issue. The issue was / is Milner not being good enough to execute the press. Had Can still been on the pitch in that situation, I'm fairly sure we wouldn't have conceded that goal.

      Going over our squad and our starting eleven, let's say this is our strongest starting eleven (when everyone is fit):

      Karius, Clyne, Matip, Van Dijk, Robertson (or Moreno), Can, Wijnaldum, Lallana, Mane, Salah and Firmino.

      Then you look at the bench, when fatigue starts to kick in. Who do you sub on when you want to keep the emphasis on pressing? Other than our starting eleven, we have only got two or three other players who can execute the press: Henderson and Chamberlain. The rest are good players (Milner, Sturridge, ...), but they're not what we need in a pressing side. You'll always have injuries and both Henderson and Lallana are out injured quite frequently, so our options there are pretty thin. Once Klopp is able to bring in more players (Keita will certainly help) who can execute the press too, we'll be a lot better later on in games. Our starting eleven is getting as close to a "Full Klopp side" as it gets, now it's time to improve the squad and for that the signing of Chamberlain for example was very important.

      The other problem is the kind of side you're facing. You can only press a side that allows themselves to be pressed. When bottom / midtable league teams are chasing goals, they don't play football like City did, they bypass the press and play long diagonal balls into our FB areas or into the box and try to win the second ball (we've conceded quite a few in this manner). In that situation pressing is pointless so the only solution is bringing on the extra CB / midfielder.

      We did to City what other teams regularly do to us, we bypassed the press by playing longballs in behind their midfield.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Onj-oYpYlac

      Here you see how important Wijnaldum and Chamberlain were in limiting Gündogan and more importantly De Bruyne. Wijnaldum was amazing and was tasked with man marking De Bruyne for spells during the game while also cutting off the supply to De Bruyne. It was only once Wijnaldum started to get tired, that De Bruyne managed to get into the game and get things going for City.

      So mainly what I was trying to say is that keeping the press going, rather than packing and killing off like Milner and a number of fans on here say, is the better approach for our team re protecting a lead. As you mentioned, Can only came off because he was ill. You make a good point about Milner not being good at that role, and I've started to think this is probably his last year with the team. Model professional and all that, but Father Time remains undefeated. Adam to me is still some way from full fitness.

      Also agree about the opposition mattering in terms of what tactic we use both early and late in a match.

      The only thing I disagree with in your post is that Lallana is in the first XI when all things are equal. I think Ox is that player now and Adam is a backup. I agree he can be a very effective late sub when he gets his fitness. I think it was Graeme Le Saux on the American telecast Sunday who said Lallana would put 90 minutes of running into a xx-minute shift (forget how long he was on for, less than 10 mins I think), but in fact he really didn't do that. Hopefully he regains full fitness soon because out substitute attacking options at the moment don't look plentiful.

      And that video is excellent again. Do you do these? Or otherwise, where do you find this stuff?


      « Last Edit: Jan 20, 2018 03:03:52 am by Robby The Z »
      Robby The Z
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      • 3,005 posts | 591 
      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #779: Jan 24, 2018 02:57:37 am
      Read this tonight and found it interesting. Prior to Swansea's goal from a corner on Monday, we had successfully dealt with  51 consecutive opposition corners. I have to confess I don't know what the typical percentage on that is, but that sounds like a pretty decent standard to me.

      And yet Martin Tyler launched right into the old spiel when they scored, and I guess it crossed my mind too. Maybe we have actually gotten pretty decent at defending these on the whole.

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