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      Tactics geeks of the world unite...

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      PurpleMonkey
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #800: Apr 26, 2018 01:24:32 am
      If something happened to one of our midfielders, what options are available?

      Could Mane play as the 3rd midfielder and maybe have Moreno as a left wide player? How about Firmino and move Salah as a 9 with Mane right and Moreno left?

      How about if you are not a Moreno fan , what about TAA in midfield and Clyne/Gomez as our right back? Or we could drop Firmino there and have Solanke or Ings as the 9.

      Anything I missed out?

      CT_LFC
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #801: Apr 26, 2018 03:38:47 am
      Seem to recall a game where Solanke played as CF and Firmino behind him? Could be a possibility as well.
      Robby The Z
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #802: May 03, 2018 04:34:08 pm
      Klopp as Revolutonary, setting a trend for world football. From espn.com:

      Liverpool lead new tactical era of 'storming' while the likes of Mourinho are left behind
      Apr 30, 2018
      Simon Kuper David Merrell

      Top-class football is changing before our eyes. Liverpool's 5-2 rout of Roma in the first leg of their Champions League semifinal merely confirmed it. The game is moving into a new tactical era: Attacking pressing is becoming so rapid that it should probably be called "storming."

      That is why we are seeing so many big wins in big games. And it's also why we're seeing managers such as Jose Mourinho struggling to adjust (more on that below).

      Liverpool are only the most obvious practitioners of storming. Gegenpressing -- as the Germans call the style -- means chasing up the opposition's defence the moment you lose possession, in order to win the ball near their goal. "Gegenpressing is the best playmaker in the world," Jürgen Klopp likes to say. When it works, a storming team can rack up the goals.

      You see this trend even in matches between two world-class teams. When Germany put seven past Brazil at the 2014 World Cup, we thought this was a one-off. In fact, it was an only slightly exaggerated portent of what has come since. Consider the blowout wins in Champions League knockout games in the past two seasons:


      The three results from this season's round of 16 can be explained in part by the financial divide in modern football: a big club thrashed a smaller one. However, in each case, the big club spent long periods storming the small club's goal, instead of the old method of sitting back after taking a comfortable lead:


      And if you think this is a big theory built on a small sample of games, here is more evidence of the trend:

      - This is already the highest-scoring Champions League season ever, with 387 goals in 122 games so far, or 3.17 per game. The previous record season was 2016-17.
      - As Jonathan Wilson has noted in The Guardian, the number of big wins -- by three goals or more -- in the quarterfinals and later has risen sharply over the past eight seasons, compared with the previous eight.
      - UEFA's own report on the most recent Champions League season found that the average goal was scored "after an average of 10.62 seconds of ball possession." That was 8 percent less pre-goal possession time than just two years before, in 2014-15. This looks like evidence, says UEFA, of "a trend towards more direct attacking".
      - The Premier League is also becoming more goal-rich. In the 1992-2009 period, average goals per game over a season were below 2.7 in every season but one (in 1999-2000, when it hit 2.8). Since 2009-10, average goals have been above 2.7 in every season except one.

      So what is going on?

      Pressing isn't totally new. In the 1970s, it was used by teams as different as Leeds and Holland, who called it jagen, or "hunting." German teams, helped by their superior fitness, would often raise the pace of play and send defenders and midfielders pelting forward for brief spells, usually immediately after the opposition had taken the lead.

      At the 1986 World Cup, the Soviet Union pioneered an early form of storming in a 6-0 demolition of Hungary. They would attack for a minute or two at an insane pace, score, then rest for a while by passing around quietly in defense. Taking breaks was a necessity in an era in which players were not particularly fit and especially in the heat of the Mexican World Cup.

      But modern players are fit enough to storm often and at unprecedented pace. High-intensity running has increased by 50 percent in the Premier League over the past decade, according to a study led by the University of Gothenburg last year which read, in part:

      Compared with in the past, modern top-class soccer is characterized by more high-intensity sprints followed by a substantially lower tempo. Repeated bouts of high-intensity running for 1-5 minutes are followed by a historically low intensity for up to 5 minutes. Thus, a player's activity level during a match tends to alternate between two extremes, compared with the traditionally more steady match tempo.

      In storming teams, wing-backs and full-backs pelt forward into attack. Some teams compensate by fielding three central defenders. The midfield's job is to win the ball high up and immediately feed the forwards.

      That is why Liverpool's James Milner, a ball winner rather than a creator, leads the Champions League in assists this season; think of the loose ball he won in the 3-0 drubbing of Manchester City to set up Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain's long-range strike.

      Storming teams also have a stunningly attacking mindset. Even after they have scored a couple, they try to keep storming. Brazil vs. Germany in 2014 was the original case-study, but Liverpool did the same against Roma. You might say this is a risky strategy and, indeed, Liverpool got tired and conceded two late goals.

      Storming teams are often undermanned in defense and can be overrun by others playing similarly. That happened to Roma's three-man defense at Anfield. They didn't perform any sort of effective pressing for most of the game -- gegen or otherwise -- but their manager Eusebio Di Francesco had previously impressed with his attacking philosophy and an even higher defensive line than that of Klopp.


      Liverpool have a commanding lead to take to Roma with a Champions League final place up for grabs. EPA/Peter Powell
      Liverpool have also had doses of their own medicine: Recall that in the league this season they lost 5-0 at Man City and conceded three times at home to the same opponents, while scoring four themselves. Defensive teams are rarely so vulnerable.

      But you could also say that if storming has brought you a couple of early goals, it's clearly working, so why switch tactics if you're not tired? By contrast, if you go 2-0 up and "park the bus," your opponents only need to nick a goal to be back in the tie. If you think you can outscore them by continuing to storm, then that is the safer bet.

      Also, a good storm can send opposing teams into a panic and their positioning sometimes goes to pieces. Brazil, in their 7-1 loss to Germany, were the perfect example, but think also of PSG during Barcelona's remontada last year, or of teams as defensively strong as Juventus and Real Madrid during their two quarterfinal encounters this season. All of these teams are used to having the ball, so they get confused when the opposition keeps taking it away in their own half.

      The teams that have embraced storming most enthusiastically are those which, on paper, look just short of top-class; think of Roma, Napoli and even Liverpool. Leaving aside Mohamed Salah, none of their players would get into a World XI and Klopp's team can't win the Champions League by building patiently from the back, so they major on fitness -- perhaps no other club trains harder -- on pace and on their complex pressing tactics.

      By contrast, the most skilful teams build more slowly. Barcelona are the extreme example, but Real Madrid also spends more time on forming attacks than speed-merchants Atletico, while Bayern in possession advance the ball the fewest metres per second of any team in the Bundesliga, according to Opta Sports analytics.

      Still, Bayern and Real also use elements of storming football. Think especially of their attacking full-backs: In last Wednesday's semifinal first leg between the two teams, Joshua Kimmich and Marcelo each scored their third goal in this Champions League season (Kimmich in 10 games, Marcelo in nine).

      One oddity of storming is that it tends to work best against the most skilful teams. It's hard against defensive sides that keep 10 men back, which explains how Liverpool could lose 2-1 at home to Wolves in last season's FA Cup. It's also hard to storm a long-ball team, because they will just go long by way of bypassing.

      But teams that try to pass the ball out from defense are vulnerable, which might explain Barcelona's three big defeats in 14 months to PSG, Juve and Roma. Moreover, skilful teams often have defenders, who are chosen more for their offensive qualities -- think David Luiz or John Stones -- and these players can struggle in a storm.

      Whenever a new trend emerges, established tacticians have to decide whether to go along with it. Pep Guardiola has embraced storming at Manchester City. He comes from a tradition of pressing, albeit of a less frantic variety: his Barcelona teams aimed to win back the ball within five seconds of losing it, even if in possession they would build quite leisurely. Later at Bayern, he imbibed some of the German tradition of pace and overlaps.

      But Jose Mourinho seems to have been left behind by the storming trend. For most of his career, except at Real Madrid where his team set a Liga record for goals in 2011-12, he has usually aimed to win games 1-0. The defensive approach sounds safe but can be high-risk: If you don't send many players forward, you may not score and the opposition can nick a goal from a rare attack; remember Manchester United's recent 1-0 home defeat to West Brom.

      United are now 16 points behind City in the Premier League, despite having conceded only one goal more. The difference between the two sides is that City have scored 98 goals which, over 34 matches, is very nearly a goal a game better than United's 65.

      Mourinho, by asking his defensive players to sit back in a wall, isn't using the physical capacities of the modern player to the full. As of January, United had run fewer yards than any other team in the Premier League.

      But he shouldn't feel too bad about getting left behind; that's the ultimate fate of most innovators. It happened to Arsene Wenger a decade ago and, one day, it will happen to Klopp too.
      Swab
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #803: Sep 19, 2018 02:11:23 pm
      Danzel
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #804: Jan 30, 2019 05:22:39 pm
      For the tactics geeks amongst us:

      https://www.elartedf.com/liverpools-defensive-framework-analysis/?fbclid=IwAR1jql5uDdF7_-Jq1HP6OG93ItjkPMRvGpD6nevvNVOenV69lqqn9npxaFY

      Good read about the defensive framework and improvements/changes Klopp has made to our shape this season compared to previous seasons.
      Scottbot
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #805: Feb 15, 2019 07:36:16 am
      Gill95
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #806: Feb 15, 2019 11:33:36 am


      Great stuff that. For all the talk of Buvac, the improvement in our overall play since Pep has been promoted is fantastic. Pep also making the point of midfield being a far complex role instead of forwards is also great. Makes you wonder, hadn't been for injuries we would be seeing the best of Naby now.
      waltonl4
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #807: Feb 15, 2019 11:50:05 am
      Midfield has become an incredibly difficult part of a team to set up. Trying to find a balance between attack and defence and a balance between players seems almost impossible at times.
      I think we now have the strongest selection of midfield players for a long long time and despite the pundits all now going for City I think it is this strength that will see us come through
      GERNS
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #808: Feb 15, 2019 08:56:44 pm
      Midfield has become an incredibly difficult part of a team to set up. Trying to find a balance between attack and defence and a balance between players seems almost impossible at times.
      I think we now have the strongest selection of midfield players for a long long time and despite the pundits all now going for City I think it is this strength that will see us come through

      If only we can keep them all fit !
      Scottbot
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #809: Feb 24, 2019 05:07:47 pm
      I thought Klopp had a poor game tactically today. Every sub was a real head scratcher. Studge barely gets 5 minutes these days yet he was straight off the bench when Firmino got injured. Unfortunately you can’t play Studge anywhere but through the middle so your kinda hamstrung with subs later in the game (plus he was awful once again) or changing up the shape once he’s on.

      I was happy enough with the first half, we didn’t create too much but we had lots of possession and control in midfield which is s good foundation to go on and create but even our possession just fizzled in the 2nd half. The next sub was also a strange one. Keita has been in the side the past 5 games and was showing some good form, I felt he would have given us back some control and might have broken their defensive lines with the way he can dribble but instead it was Shakiri, another player who has barely had a look in and has been out of touch for a month or so. And then last of all Origi for a misfiring Salah, another sub that did nothing for our ability to retain the ball and another out of form player with barely any minutes under his belt. Just weird all around.

      City simply stays in possession, probe for openings, recycle and then go again. We’re able to play in the same way and have done countless times and I thought that should have been the approach in that 2nd half today. Instead we tossed in too many long balls, too many floated crosses and gave the ball away too cheaply. Several posters have talked about a lack of rythym and was really evident. These boot camps abroad will probably help long term in terms of fitness but it doesn’t appear to be worth it given the way we have played after each break.
      HScRed1
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #810: Feb 24, 2019 05:13:44 pm
      That midfield 3 combination played exactly how you expect it to play.
      Physical and full of running, impossible to play or pass through.

      But going forward completely un -creative and devoid of much attacking instinct and wouldn’t know how to create a chance if they were still playing.

      A uncreative midfield is nothing new we have had one for the last 10 years.
      Why sign someone like Keita if he is going to sit in the bench?
      Scottbot
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #811: Feb 24, 2019 05:28:57 pm
      That midfield 3 combination played exactly how you expect it to play.
      Physical and full of running, impossible to play or pass through.

      But going forward completely un -creative and devoid of much attacking instinct and wouldn’t know how to create a chance if they were still playing.

      A uncreative midfield is nothing new we have had one for the last 10 years.
      Why sign someone like Keita if he is going to sit in the bench?

      That midfield got the ball into the front three in and around the box enough times today (particularly in the first half) only for Salah, Mane or Studge to fluff their lines. I was happy enough with the three lads who started, I just didn’t understand why Zkeita wasn’t the first option off the bench when it needed changing up.
      HScRed1
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #812: Feb 24, 2019 05:45:28 pm
      That midfield got the ball into the front three in and around the box enough times today (particularly in the first half) only for Salah, Mane or Studge to fluff their lines. I was happy enough with the three lads who started, I just didn’t understand why Zkeita wasn’t the first option off the bench when it needed changing up.

      They got the ball up there with them back to goal, that’s hardly breaking the lines or finding someone in space making a run.
      Scottbot
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #813: Feb 24, 2019 05:58:27 pm
      They got the ball up there with them back to goal, that’s hardly breaking the lines or finding someone in space making a run.

      Mane and Salah both had the ball faced up in their area and we also got to the by line within the penalty area on a couple of occasions but final ball throughout the first half was poor. 2nd half I can’t recall us even getting into those positions. Keita on 55-60 mins was the sub I expected to see.
      PurpleMonkey
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #814: Feb 24, 2019 06:10:06 pm
      Mane and Salah both had the ball faced up in their area and we also got to the by line within the penalty area on a couple of occasions but final ball throughout the first half was poor. 2nd half I can’t recall us even getting into those positions. Keita on 55-60 mins was the sub I expected to see.

      First half wasn't that bad. Hendo and Wijnaldum were getting into decent areas, but as you say, the final ball wasn't there. As for second half, correct me if i am wrong, but it was a shift in midfield where Hendo and Fab were more sitting and Wijnaldum in the half spaces which seemed to have swung the pendulum and made us less attack minded. And as HScRed1 eluded to, it felt as if we just pumped hopeless long balls into our forwards.
      HScRed1
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #815: Mar 04, 2019 11:06:43 am
      The last time a LFC midfielder scored a winning goal........May 2017 Emre with the overhead v Watford
       :roll:

      We are way to reliant on the front 3.

      Double up on them and cut out the supply from full backs which decent teams can do quite easily the we get to a situation we have seen since post Christmas.

      Doesn’t help that Klopp keeps going for a flat 3 in midfield.
      HScRed1
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #816: Aug 15, 2019 09:00:39 am
      From pre season and the last 2 games something not quite right with the way we are set up.

      We are far too easily bypassed through the middle of the pitch. Hendo far right and Milner far left didn’t help last night. But as a team we are not pressing effectively fo what ever reason. Last night the Chelsea midfield had ages to pick out a runner.

      Hopefully it’s just the effects of a heavy pre season as the number of times our players were dribbled past last night was pretty painful to watch.

      A creative midfielder should have been top priority but that boat has sailed.

      Work required on the training pitch to tweak what is obviously wrong.
      brezipool
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #817: Aug 15, 2019 10:43:56 am
      Not worried about the way we played 1st half, the players are all not at the same fitness levels, Klopp used squad, used the game to give the ox a proper 45mins.

      started Millie & Hendo together, very rare for that too happen, probably wont see that very much at all this season.

      Probably going to be sketchy performances for another month I reckon, luckily not too many games yet, just league weekly league games.
      brezipool
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #818: Aug 15, 2019 10:44:54 am
      The last time a LFC midfielder scored a winning goal........May 2017 Emre with the overhead v Watford
       :roll:

      We are way to reliant on the front 3.

      Double up on them and cut out the supply from full backs which decent teams can do quite easily the we get to a situation we have seen since post Christmas.

      Doesn’t help that Klopp keeps going for a flat 3 in midfield.

      Forgetting Origi. and its easier said than done stopping our front 3. ;-)

      heimdall
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #819: Aug 15, 2019 11:04:28 am
      Not worried about the way we played 1st half, the players are all not at the same fitness levels, Klopp used squad, used the game to give the ox a proper 45mins.

      started Millie & Hendo together, very rare for that too happen, probably wont see that very much at all this season.

      Probably going to be sketchy performances for another month I reckon, luckily not too many games yet, just league weekly league games.

      Are you seriously not worried that we made Chelsea, a team that just got beat 4-0 by Manure, look like Citeh with them passing the ball through our team with ease and dribbling and shooting at goal. We were only saved by some close off side calls, if it wasn't for that it could have been a much bigger deficit at half time.
      I agree with the previous poster that there is something wrong with the team at the moment, the balance is a bit wrong between defence and attack and I think its mostly down to the midfield not quite clicking yet.

      I am 100% confident that Klopp and his team can sort it out but I am a bit concerned about the match on Saturday as the players looked knackered at the end of that match yesterday. I would consider rotating the team quite heavily, perhaps start with Origi and Brewster plus Bobby in attack and sub in Mo and Sadio if needed. In defence I'd maybe start Lovren if one of the CB's need a rest and consider playing one of the young full backs along with Trent as Robbo also looked very tired at the end. In midfield I'd shuffle the pack a bit and start Shaq and Lallana together with either Hendo or Fabinho if one of them is fit, if neither one is then not quite sure who else could play there, perhaps Millner.
      brezipool
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #820: Aug 15, 2019 11:09:34 am
      Are you seriously not worried that we made Chelsea, a team that just got beat 4-0 by Manure, look like Citeh with them passing the ball through our team with ease and dribbling and shooting at goal. We were only saved by some close off side calls, if it wasn't for that it could have been a much bigger deficit at half time.
      I agree with the previous poster that there is something wrong with the team at the moment, the balance is a bit wrong between defence and attack and I think its mostly down to the midfield not quite clicking yet.

      I am 100% confident that Klopp and his team can sort it out but I am a bit concerned about the match on Saturday as the players looked knackered at the end of that match yesterday. I would consider rotating the team quite heavily, perhaps start with Origi and Brewster plus Bobby in attack and sub in Mo and Sadio if needed. In defence I'd maybe start Lovren if one of the CB's need a rest and consider playing one of the young full backs along with Trent as Robbo also looked very tired at the end. In midfield I'd shuffle the pack a bit and start Shaq and Lallana together with either Hendo or Fabinho if one of them is fit, if neither one is then not quite sure who else could play there, perhaps Millner.

      I give credit to chelsea tbh.

      They played very well, and by all accounts were good v manu even though they lost 4 zip. Kante was brilliant btw.

      Milner and hendo together is not great we know this, but klopp was doing best to use squad and give some guys minutes, 1 eye on southampton, the ET defo put a spanner in the works tho.
      skamp
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #821: Aug 15, 2019 11:27:35 am
      For whatever reason, we look much more vulnerable defensively than we did at the start of last season.  We've conceded 4 goals (including Community Shield & Super Cup) , but all 3 opponents to date have had a hat-ful of chances.

      This does appear to stem from our midfield being too easily bypassed.  Not sure if it's a fitness, system or personnel issue, but we need to iron it out soon or the results will start going against us.

      Confident we can sort it out, though Southampton on Sat looks a lot trickier after that 120+mins.
      Robby The Z
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #822: Aug 15, 2019 03:19:03 pm
      For whatever reason, we look much more vulnerable defensively than we did at the start of last season.  We've conceded 4 goals (including Community Shield & Super Cup) , but all 3 opponents to date have had a hat-ful of chances.

      This does appear to stem from our midfield being too easily bypassed.  Not sure if it's a fitness, system or personnel issue, but we need to iron it out soon or the results will start going against us.

      Confident we can sort it out, though Southampton on Sat looks a lot trickier after that 120+mins.

      To me, the biggest difference appears to be the impact our fullbacks are having, as in not nearly as much . That may be down to fitness bit they are not nearly as prominent so far. I expect them.to grow quickly back to their influence level of last season.
      heimdall
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #823: Aug 15, 2019 03:24:55 pm
      I give credit to chelsea tbh.

      They played very well, and by all accounts were good v manu even though they lost 4 zip. Kante was brilliant btw.

      Milner and hendo together is not great we know this, but klopp was doing best to use squad and give some guys minutes, 1 eye on southampton, the ET defo put a spanner in the works tho.

      How come he didn't want to give Shaq or Lallana any minutes, are they not as huggable?
      Tayls
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #824: Aug 15, 2019 03:25:01 pm
      To me it looks like we're off the pace a bit. In possession, particularly build up from deep, we don't look assured. We kept giving the ball away in dangerous positions last night, and that can be down to the players in front of the ball as much as it is the passer himself.

      We're also not getting to enough second balls. It happened frequently against Norwich and again last night. Too often we win the first ball and then there's no one around to challenge for or pick up the second. Feel like this is the midfields job more often than not.

      Don't agree much with the general media sentiment we're playing an especially high line. We've done that for ages, and have relied on a good offside trap along with quick defenders to bail us out.

      Overall think we need to improve our build up play, as it's easy to get in behind us if we give the ball away in the first/second third, and we also need to look at why we aren't winning enough second balls in midfield.

      On the plus side there's all these "problems" and yet we have our first 3 points and first trophy of the season already!

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