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      Tactics geeks of the world unite...

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      HScRed1
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #825: Aug 15, 2019 03:40:00 pm
      To me it looks like we're off the pace a bit. In possession, particularly build up from deep, we don't look assured. We kept giving the ball away in dangerous positions last night, and that can be down to the players in front of the ball as much as it is the passer himself.

      We're also not getting to enough second balls. It happened frequently against Norwich and again last night. Too often we win the first ball and then there's no one around to challenge for or pick up the second. Feel like this is the midfields job more often than not.

      Don't agree much with the general media sentiment we're playing an especially high line. We've done that for ages, and have relied on a good offside trap along with quick defenders to bail us out.

      Overall think we need to improve our build up play, as it's easy to get in behind us if we give the ball away in the first/second third, and we also need to look at why we aren't winning enough second balls in midfield.

      On the plus side there's all these "problems" and yet we have our first 3 points and first trophy of the season already!

      Your first paragraph is interesting in that it’s something I have noticed even during pre season,  when the back 4 are in possession we seem to vacate the central midfield area, yesterday Hendo and Milner were almost hugging the side lines leaving Fab as the only option.

      No surprise we were hoofing the ball long and with Matip trying to play out of the Chelsea press we were our own worst enemies.

      Strange set up indeed.
      racerx34
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #826: Aug 15, 2019 05:02:22 pm
      Your first paragraph is interesting in that it’s something I have noticed even during pre season,  when the back 4 are in possession we seem to vacate the central midfield area, yesterday Hendo and Milner were almost hugging the side lines leaving Fab as the only option.

      No surprise we were hoofing the ball long and with Matip trying to play out of the Chelsea press we were our own worst enemies.

      Strange set up indeed.

      Almost like a 4-4-2 formation until Firmino came on last night.
      Didn't work at all.
      Scottbot
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #827: Oct 06, 2019 07:12:27 am
      Interesting take on Klopp's decision to mix up his front 3 starting positions fir yesterday's game.

      https://www.liverpool.com/schedule/klopp-liverpool-leicester-salah-mane-17038887

      Robby The Z
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #828: Oct 18, 2019 05:34:15 pm
      I don't want to paste the whole thing here because The Athletic is a paid service and it's very good and I want it to continue on (which it won't if everybody steals it or gives it away). But this is from a terrific article about Klopp's emphasis on fullbacks as creators. Very long and detailed, talking with players who were with us when he first came on board, etc. Gets into how he changed the role for midfielders as well.

      Opportunities were given to youth teamers with high hopes. It became clear to one of them that Klopp had very uncommon expectations relating to skill-sets and positions. “I grew up thinking you had to be fast and aggressive to play at the top level as a full-back. Klopp was looking for something different, though…”

      Klopp would speak often about the full-back being “the spare man” or the “quarterback”. Football’s playmakers are usually in midfield but the shape of Klopp’s team meant more time was offered to the full-back than any midfielder, who was instead expected to cover for the more creative players elsewhere on the pitch. This would lead to major disappointment among the queue of exciting, ball-playing midfielders in Liverpool’s academy hoping for their opportunities at first team level.


      You can get subscriptions to it at a major discount.
      « Last Edit: Oct 18, 2019 05:39:03 pm by Robby The Z »
      RC9
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #829: Oct 24, 2019 11:43:01 am
      Not sure where to put this, but it seems like it's a viable place.

      As much as we all want to see Ox and Keita in the midfield, is anyone else a bit worried about how exposed it leaves us defensively. I feel like the job Gini does goes under the radar and for us to have a thriving midfield we actually need him in it.

      With that in mind, who is the better player to have starting in the more attacking role Keita or Ox? I love Keita and want to see him excelling in our team but for me Ox has shown more going forward and for that reason I would have the below midfield moving forward;

      Fabinho     

      Gini

      Ox

      What does everyone else think?
      fields of anny rd
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #830: Oct 24, 2019 12:20:34 pm
      Not sure where to put this, but it seems like it's a viable place.

      As much as we all want to see Ox and Keita in the midfield, is anyone else a bit worried about how exposed it leaves us defensively. I feel like the job Gini does goes under the radar and for us to have a thriving midfield we actually need him in it.

      With that in mind, who is the better player to have starting in the more attacking role Keita or Ox? I love Keita and want to see him excelling in our team but for me Ox has shown more going forward and for that reason I would have the below midfield moving forward;

      Fabinho     

      Gini

      Ox

      What does everyone else think?

      Yeah I dont think we can play both from that start in many premier league games.

      I think Klopp may choose one of them in home games or games where he wants us to impose ourselves on the opposition, but for CL later rounds and big league games I think it will in the main be the usual industrial 3 and any injury or rest to those with Milner coming in.

      Theres room for them both in the season ahead, enough games they can start and enough they can feature off the bench, but in the main I think Klopp will go for industry over added goals, to protect Fab and the back 4.
      Swab
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #831: Oct 24, 2019 12:52:28 pm
      Not sure where to put this, but it seems like it's a viable place.

      As much as we all want to see Ox and Keita in the midfield, is anyone else a bit worried about how exposed it leaves us defensively. I feel like the job Gini does goes under the radar and for us to have a thriving midfield we actually need him in it.

      With that in mind, who is the better player to have starting in the more attacking role Keita or Ox? I love Keita and want to see him excelling in our team but for me Ox has shown more going forward and for that reason I would have the below midfield moving forward;

      Fabinho     

      Gini

      Ox

      What does everyone else think?

      It depends who we're playing.

      Fabi, Gini, Henderson is defensively solid, and then later on in games, you can open it up by bringing in ox for one of Gini or Henderson.
      Keita is decent defensively, and at only 24 he can become a rounded mf,and so rotate with the other less attackng MF.

      It was noticeable last night for their goal, that the attack came through the space Henderson would normally be defending.
      Gomez is getting back, Fabinho goes to the box, and just in front of Lovren there is a space where you would normally see Henderson defending (behind Gomez but further towards the box) that was completely open.
      JD
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #832: Oct 24, 2019 01:08:33 pm
      As much as we all want to see Ox and Keita in the midfield, is anyone else a bit worried about how exposed it leaves us defensively. I feel like the job Gini does goes under the radar and for us to have a thriving midfield we actually need him in it.

      I agree with you.  It's a much more 'attacking' midfield.  They both want to get forward, both like buzzing at the edge of the penalty box.  Surely they must increase the pressure on Fabinho when they both play.

      BUT they're a terrific option against 'lesser sides' or to come on in the unlikely event that we're in trouble.

      I think the best balance would be that we have Fabinho and then one of Ox/Keita and one of Wijnaldum/Henderson.  We've also got Milner and Lallana who are very different options.

      We can be concerned about them being too attacking but the fact is that Genk were clearly the right opposition for it and we scored four goals so it's the bosses decision when to utilise them all. 
      HScRed1
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #833: Oct 24, 2019 01:25:53 pm
      Difficult to judge on last nights game as the midfield were bypassed with simple balls over the top. Noticeable that they didn’t actually run through our midfield.

      No doubt on Sunday Klopp will go for his tried and trusted.
      RC9
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #834: Oct 25, 2019 08:24:22 am
      I like the idea of two midfields depending on how cautious we need to be defensively, just a bit worried that with how high our full backs push up the less defensive midfield may become exposed.

      All I know is that against Spurs I want Ox to start and have the chance to carry on the momentum he gained in midweek. Unfortunately it would be at the expense of Hendo, that's because Gini has simply been the better midfielder this season for me and Fabinho has been ahead of the rest, I think that's clear to see.
      Robby The Z
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #835: Oct 25, 2019 03:29:52 pm
      Interesting article by Tony Evans in The Independent that touches heavily on this favorite discussion topic here (role of midfielders re scoring goals):

      Do Liverpool really need a goalscoring midfielder? The problem with Naby Keita
      Liverpool fans want to see the best of Naby Keita but Jürgen Klopp's team is set up to attack through the full-backs, meaning his midfield is a place for tactical discipline and endeavour, not cutting edge in the final third

      The clamour from Liverpool fans to see Naby Keita get an extended run in the team is growing. As good as Jürgen Klopp’s European Champions have been, there is a strong perception that the weakest department in the side is the midfield. Yet it would be a surprise to see the Guinean start against Tottenham Hotspur at Anfield on Sunday.

      Klopp’s default trio are Jordan Henderson, Fabinho and Georginio Wijnaldum. They offer little goal threat. Last season, Henderson and Fabinho hit the net just once each in the league and Wijnaldum got three. The Dutchman has scored once in the first quarter of this campaign. From the sidelines it appears that Keita, with his surging runs forward, and Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain, whose shooting prowess makes him a danger anywhere around the box, should be able to force their way into the team.

      The 4-1 demolition of Genk in the Champions League appeared to endorse the point. Oxlade-Chamberlain’s two goals were spectacular and Keita’s creativity caught the eye.

      Klopp always denies he has a favourite midfield three. “I like them all,” he says with characteristic enthusiasm. But it is not a question of who he likes. It is about who he trusts. James Milner is, for the moment, more likely to be slotted into the side when required.

      The job of the midfield in this side is to provide balance. Sadio Mane, Roberto Firmino and Mo Salah have to be allowed to play to their potential. They need the freedom that comes with knowing there are hard-running colleagues behind them who will ensure there is cover when possession is conceded. They press defenders so ferociously at times that Liverpool could be susceptible on the break. The way Klopp sets up the side minimises the risk.

      More importantly, though, the central three allow Trent Alexander-Arnold and Andy Robertson to range forward at will. The wing backs are crucial to the way this team operate. That much is clear. What is less obvious is how much responsibility this places on the midfield. To do their job effectively, the full backs need to leave space behind them. This is the area that could be dangerous to Liverpool. Protecting Alexander-Arnold and Robertson might not be the most glamorous role but it is one of the most vital.

      An obsession with Steven Gerrard hangs over Anfield. Henderson, whose career crossed over with the club legend, has always suffered by comparison. The 29-year-old was not bought to replace Gerrard, an impossible task, but to be part of a platoon of players to fill the void. There are plenty in the stands – and in the boardroom – who have never valued Henderson’s contribution. Klopp does.

      Keita has suffered from the same syndrome. The obsession with finding an up-and-down goalscoring midfielder was part of the driving force behind buying the 24-year-old. Signing Keita from Red Bull Leipzig a year before his arrival on Merseyside only heightened the sense of anticipation about his potential effect on the team. So far he has been a disappointment.

      Injuries have held him back but it is not that easy. Like many new arrivals in the Premier League from abroad he has struggled with the physicality of the game. In Germany he was quicker, more technically adept and stronger than the majority of his opponents. In England this has not been the case. It affected his confidence. In the words of one insider, “he saw his arse.”

      The problem for Keita – and to a lesser extent Oxlade-Chamberlain, who has proven he can play in this division – is simple: do Liverpool need a goalscoring midfielder? They have won the Champions League and produced an outstanding 18 months of form without one. Any extra goals could be offset at the other end if the balance is disrupted. The midfield of Keita, Oxlade-Chamberlain and Fabinho that played in Genk is a seductive-looking trio but the Belgian side are one of the poorest teams in the Champions League. They have yet to win a game in the competition. It is easier to shine against Genk than, say, Tottenham.

      What could change the situation is if the rest of the Premier League have finally worked out how to stop Liverpool. Manchester United did a good job of nullifying the full-backs in the 1-1 draw at Old Trafford last week. Mauricio Pochettino, a man eager to rebuild his fraying reputation, will undoubtedly turn up at Anfield on Sunday with a plan to stop Alexander-Arnold and Robertson. If opponents manage to kill Liverpool’s wide threat on a regular basis, Klopp will have to change the point of attack. Neutralising the full-backs is easier said than done, however.

      The German needs to rotate to keep the side fresh. December and January will be exhausting months for the squad, with the Club World Cup in Qatar adding two matches that a team chasing their first title since 1990 could live without. Everyone in the squad will get their chance over the next three months.

      Keita’s chances will come but they will likely be against teams that the manager considers weaker opponents. For now, the tried and trusted are a better option for Klopp.
      Swab
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #836: Oct 26, 2019 05:28:02 pm
      Interesting article by Tony Evans in The Independent that touches heavily on this favorite discussion topic here (role of midfielders re scoring goals):

      Do Liverpool really need a goalscoring midfielder? The problem with Naby Keita
      Liverpool fans want to see the best of Naby Keita but Jürgen Klopp's team is set up to attack through the full-backs, meaning his midfield is a place for tactical discipline and endeavour, not cutting edge in the final third

      The clamour from Liverpool fans to see Naby Keita get an extended run in the team is growing. As good as Jürgen Klopp’s European Champions have been, there is a strong perception that the weakest department in the side is the midfield. Yet it would be a surprise to see the Guinean start against Tottenham Hotspur at Anfield on Sunday.

      Klopp’s default trio are Jordan Henderson, Fabinho and Georginio Wijnaldum. They offer little goal threat. Last season, Henderson and Fabinho hit the net just once each in the league and Wijnaldum got three. The Dutchman has scored once in the first quarter of this campaign. From the sidelines it appears that Keita, with his surging runs forward, and Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain, whose shooting prowess makes him a danger anywhere around the box, should be able to force their way into the team.

      The 4-1 demolition of Genk in the Champions League appeared to endorse the point. Oxlade-Chamberlain’s two goals were spectacular and Keita’s creativity caught the eye.

      Klopp always denies he has a favourite midfield three. “I like them all,” he says with characteristic enthusiasm. But it is not a question of who he likes. It is about who he trusts. James Milner is, for the moment, more likely to be slotted into the side when required.

      The job of the midfield in this side is to provide balance. Sadio Mane, Roberto Firmino and Mo Salah have to be allowed to play to their potential. They need the freedom that comes with knowing there are hard-running colleagues behind them who will ensure there is cover when possession is conceded. They press defenders so ferociously at times that Liverpool could be susceptible on the break. The way Klopp sets up the side minimises the risk.

      More importantly, though, the central three allow Trent Alexander-Arnold and Andy Robertson to range forward at will. The wing backs are crucial to the way this team operate. That much is clear. What is less obvious is how much responsibility this places on the midfield. To do their job effectively, the full backs need to leave space behind them. This is the area that could be dangerous to Liverpool. Protecting Alexander-Arnold and Robertson might not be the most glamorous role but it is one of the most vital.

      An obsession with Steven Gerrard hangs over Anfield. Henderson, whose career crossed over with the club legend, has always suffered by comparison. The 29-year-old was not bought to replace Gerrard, an impossible task, but to be part of a platoon of players to fill the void. There are plenty in the stands – and in the boardroom – who have never valued Henderson’s contribution. Klopp does.

      Keita has suffered from the same syndrome. The obsession with finding an up-and-down goalscoring midfielder was part of the driving force behind buying the 24-year-old. Signing Keita from Red Bull Leipzig a year before his arrival on Merseyside only heightened the sense of anticipation about his potential effect on the team. So far he has been a disappointment.

      Injuries have held him back but it is not that easy. Like many new arrivals in the Premier League from abroad he has struggled with the physicality of the game. In Germany he was quicker, more technically adept and stronger than the majority of his opponents. In England this has not been the case. It affected his confidence. In the words of one insider, “he saw his arse.”

      The problem for Keita – and to a lesser extent Oxlade-Chamberlain, who has proven he can play in this division – is simple: do Liverpool need a goalscoring midfielder? They have won the Champions League and produced an outstanding 18 months of form without one. Any extra goals could be offset at the other end if the balance is disrupted. The midfield of Keita, Oxlade-Chamberlain and Fabinho that played in Genk is a seductive-looking trio but the Belgian side are one of the poorest teams in the Champions League. They have yet to win a game in the competition. It is easier to shine against Genk than, say, Tottenham.

      What could change the situation is if the rest of the Premier League have finally worked out how to stop Liverpool. Manchester United did a good job of nullifying the full-backs in the 1-1 draw at Old Trafford last week. Mauricio Pochettino, a man eager to rebuild his fraying reputation, will undoubtedly turn up at Anfield on Sunday with a plan to stop Alexander-Arnold and Robertson. If opponents manage to kill Liverpool’s wide threat on a regular basis, Klopp will have to change the point of attack. Neutralising the full-backs is easier said than done, however.

      The German needs to rotate to keep the side fresh. December and January will be exhausting months for the squad, with the Club World Cup in Qatar adding two matches that a team chasing their first title since 1990 could live without. Everyone in the squad will get their chance over the next three months.

      Keita’s chances will come but they will likely be against teams that the manager considers weaker opponents. For now, the tried and trusted are a better option for Klopp.


      I've been saying this since Klopp came here, but people don't want to understand, because it's much easier to keep spouting the same old bollocks about "we need more goals from midfield" despite the number of goals we actually score.

      Whether it's laziness, indifference or ignorance makes no difference; the "we need more golas from midfield" argument is facile.
      Frankly, Mr Shankly
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #837: Oct 26, 2019 05:28:48 pm
      Interesting article by Tony Evans in The Independent that touches heavily on this favorite discussion topic here (role of midfielders re scoring goals):

      Do Liverpool really need a goalscoring midfielder? The problem with Naby Keita
      Liverpool fans want to see the best of Naby Keita but Jürgen Klopp's team is set up to attack through the full-backs, meaning his midfield is a place for tactical discipline and endeavour, not cutting edge in the final third

      The clamour from Liverpool fans to see Naby Keita get an extended run in the team is growing. As good as Jürgen Klopp’s European Champions have been, there is a strong perception that the weakest department in the side is the midfield. Yet it would be a surprise to see the Guinean start against Tottenham Hotspur at Anfield on Sunday.

      Klopp’s default trio are Jordan Henderson, Fabinho and Georginio Wijnaldum. They offer little goal threat. Last season, Henderson and Fabinho hit the net just once each in the league and Wijnaldum got three. The Dutchman has scored once in the first quarter of this campaign. From the sidelines it appears that Keita, with his surging runs forward, and Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain, whose shooting prowess makes him a danger anywhere around the box, should be able to force their way into the team.

      The 4-1 demolition of Genk in the Champions League appeared to endorse the point. Oxlade-Chamberlain’s two goals were spectacular and Keita’s creativity caught the eye.

      Klopp always denies he has a favourite midfield three. “I like them all,” he says with characteristic enthusiasm. But it is not a question of who he likes. It is about who he trusts. James Milner is, for the moment, more likely to be slotted into the side when required.

      The job of the midfield in this side is to provide balance. Sadio Mane, Roberto Firmino and Mo Salah have to be allowed to play to their potential. They need the freedom that comes with knowing there are hard-running colleagues behind them who will ensure there is cover when possession is conceded. They press defenders so ferociously at times that Liverpool could be susceptible on the break. The way Klopp sets up the side minimises the risk.

      More importantly, though, the central three allow Trent Alexander-Arnold and Andy Robertson to range forward at will. The wing backs are crucial to the way this team operate. That much is clear. What is less obvious is how much responsibility this places on the midfield. To do their job effectively, the full backs need to leave space behind them. This is the area that could be dangerous to Liverpool. Protecting Alexander-Arnold and Robertson might not be the most glamorous role but it is one of the most vital.

      An obsession with Steven Gerrard hangs over Anfield. Henderson, whose career crossed over with the club legend, has always suffered by comparison. The 29-year-old was not bought to replace Gerrard, an impossible task, but to be part of a platoon of players to fill the void. There are plenty in the stands – and in the boardroom – who have never valued Henderson’s contribution. Klopp does.

      Keita has suffered from the same syndrome. The obsession with finding an up-and-down goalscoring midfielder was part of the driving force behind buying the 24-year-old. Signing Keita from Red Bull Leipzig a year before his arrival on Merseyside only heightened the sense of anticipation about his potential effect on the team. So far he has been a disappointment.

      Injuries have held him back but it is not that easy. Like many new arrivals in the Premier League from abroad he has struggled with the physicality of the game. In Germany he was quicker, more technically adept and stronger than the majority of his opponents. In England this has not been the case. It affected his confidence. In the words of one insider, “he saw his arse.”

      The problem for Keita – and to a lesser extent Oxlade-Chamberlain, who has proven he can play in this division – is simple: do Liverpool need a goalscoring midfielder? They have won the Champions League and produced an outstanding 18 months of form without one. Any extra goals could be offset at the other end if the balance is disrupted. The midfield of Keita, Oxlade-Chamberlain and Fabinho that played in Genk is a seductive-looking trio but the Belgian side are one of the poorest teams in the Champions League. They have yet to win a game in the competition. It is easier to shine against Genk than, say, Tottenham.

      What could change the situation is if the rest of the Premier League have finally worked out how to stop Liverpool. Manchester United did a good job of nullifying the full-backs in the 1-1 draw at Old Trafford last week. Mauricio Pochettino, a man eager to rebuild his fraying reputation, will undoubtedly turn up at Anfield on Sunday with a plan to stop Alexander-Arnold and Robertson. If opponents manage to kill Liverpool’s wide threat on a regular basis, Klopp will have to change the point of attack. Neutralising the full-backs is easier said than done, however.

      The German needs to rotate to keep the side fresh. December and January will be exhausting months for the squad, with the Club World Cup in Qatar adding two matches that a team chasing their first title since 1990 could live without. Everyone in the squad will get their chance over the next three months.

      Keita’s chances will come but they will likely be against teams that the manager considers weaker opponents. For now, the tried and trusted are a better option for Klopp.


      Oh God....

      not Tony Evans.
      Swab
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #838: Oct 26, 2019 05:31:37 pm

      I thought the same, but for once, he's on the money.
      It's not original of course, some of it is just repeating what Klopp has said about our midfield.

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