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      Tactics geeks of the world unite...

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      JD
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #828: Oct 24, 2019 01:08:33 pm
      As much as we all want to see Ox and Keita in the midfield, is anyone else a bit worried about how exposed it leaves us defensively. I feel like the job Gini does goes under the radar and for us to have a thriving midfield we actually need him in it.

      I agree with you.  It's a much more 'attacking' midfield.  They both want to get forward, both like buzzing at the edge of the penalty box.  Surely they must increase the pressure on Fabinho when they both play.

      BUT they're a terrific option against 'lesser sides' or to come on in the unlikely event that we're in trouble.

      I think the best balance would be that we have Fabinho and then one of Ox/Keita and one of Wijnaldum/Henderson.  We've also got Milner and Lallana who are very different options.

      We can be concerned about them being too attacking but the fact is that Genk were clearly the right opposition for it and we scored four goals so it's the bosses decision when to utilise them all. 
      HScRed1
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #829: Oct 24, 2019 01:25:53 pm
      Difficult to judge on last nights game as the midfield were bypassed with simple balls over the top. Noticeable that they didn’t actually run through our midfield.

      No doubt on Sunday Klopp will go for his tried and trusted.
      RC9
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #830: Oct 25, 2019 08:24:22 am
      I like the idea of two midfields depending on how cautious we need to be defensively, just a bit worried that with how high our full backs push up the less defensive midfield may become exposed.

      All I know is that against Spurs I want Ox to start and have the chance to carry on the momentum he gained in midweek. Unfortunately it would be at the expense of Hendo, that's because Gini has simply been the better midfielder this season for me and Fabinho has been ahead of the rest, I think that's clear to see.
      Robby The Z
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #831: Oct 25, 2019 03:29:52 pm
      Interesting article by Tony Evans in The Independent that touches heavily on this favorite discussion topic here (role of midfielders re scoring goals):

      Do Liverpool really need a goalscoring midfielder? The problem with Naby Keita
      Liverpool fans want to see the best of Naby Keita but Jürgen Klopp's team is set up to attack through the full-backs, meaning his midfield is a place for tactical discipline and endeavour, not cutting edge in the final third

      The clamour from Liverpool fans to see Naby Keita get an extended run in the team is growing. As good as Jürgen Klopp’s European Champions have been, there is a strong perception that the weakest department in the side is the midfield. Yet it would be a surprise to see the Guinean start against Tottenham Hotspur at Anfield on Sunday.

      Klopp’s default trio are Jordan Henderson, Fabinho and Georginio Wijnaldum. They offer little goal threat. Last season, Henderson and Fabinho hit the net just once each in the league and Wijnaldum got three. The Dutchman has scored once in the first quarter of this campaign. From the sidelines it appears that Keita, with his surging runs forward, and Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain, whose shooting prowess makes him a danger anywhere around the box, should be able to force their way into the team.

      The 4-1 demolition of Genk in the Champions League appeared to endorse the point. Oxlade-Chamberlain’s two goals were spectacular and Keita’s creativity caught the eye.

      Klopp always denies he has a favourite midfield three. “I like them all,” he says with characteristic enthusiasm. But it is not a question of who he likes. It is about who he trusts. James Milner is, for the moment, more likely to be slotted into the side when required.

      The job of the midfield in this side is to provide balance. Sadio Mane, Roberto Firmino and Mo Salah have to be allowed to play to their potential. They need the freedom that comes with knowing there are hard-running colleagues behind them who will ensure there is cover when possession is conceded. They press defenders so ferociously at times that Liverpool could be susceptible on the break. The way Klopp sets up the side minimises the risk.

      More importantly, though, the central three allow Trent Alexander-Arnold and Andy Robertson to range forward at will. The wing backs are crucial to the way this team operate. That much is clear. What is less obvious is how much responsibility this places on the midfield. To do their job effectively, the full backs need to leave space behind them. This is the area that could be dangerous to Liverpool. Protecting Alexander-Arnold and Robertson might not be the most glamorous role but it is one of the most vital.

      An obsession with Steven Gerrard hangs over Anfield. Henderson, whose career crossed over with the club legend, has always suffered by comparison. The 29-year-old was not bought to replace Gerrard, an impossible task, but to be part of a platoon of players to fill the void. There are plenty in the stands – and in the boardroom – who have never valued Henderson’s contribution. Klopp does.

      Keita has suffered from the same syndrome. The obsession with finding an up-and-down goalscoring midfielder was part of the driving force behind buying the 24-year-old. Signing Keita from Red Bull Leipzig a year before his arrival on Merseyside only heightened the sense of anticipation about his potential effect on the team. So far he has been a disappointment.

      Injuries have held him back but it is not that easy. Like many new arrivals in the Premier League from abroad he has struggled with the physicality of the game. In Germany he was quicker, more technically adept and stronger than the majority of his opponents. In England this has not been the case. It affected his confidence. In the words of one insider, “he saw his arse.”

      The problem for Keita – and to a lesser extent Oxlade-Chamberlain, who has proven he can play in this division – is simple: do Liverpool need a goalscoring midfielder? They have won the Champions League and produced an outstanding 18 months of form without one. Any extra goals could be offset at the other end if the balance is disrupted. The midfield of Keita, Oxlade-Chamberlain and Fabinho that played in Genk is a seductive-looking trio but the Belgian side are one of the poorest teams in the Champions League. They have yet to win a game in the competition. It is easier to shine against Genk than, say, Tottenham.

      What could change the situation is if the rest of the Premier League have finally worked out how to stop Liverpool. Manchester United did a good job of nullifying the full-backs in the 1-1 draw at Old Trafford last week. Mauricio Pochettino, a man eager to rebuild his fraying reputation, will undoubtedly turn up at Anfield on Sunday with a plan to stop Alexander-Arnold and Robertson. If opponents manage to kill Liverpool’s wide threat on a regular basis, Klopp will have to change the point of attack. Neutralising the full-backs is easier said than done, however.

      The German needs to rotate to keep the side fresh. December and January will be exhausting months for the squad, with the Club World Cup in Qatar adding two matches that a team chasing their first title since 1990 could live without. Everyone in the squad will get their chance over the next three months.

      Keita’s chances will come but they will likely be against teams that the manager considers weaker opponents. For now, the tried and trusted are a better option for Klopp.
      Swab
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #832: Oct 26, 2019 05:28:02 pm
      Interesting article by Tony Evans in The Independent that touches heavily on this favorite discussion topic here (role of midfielders re scoring goals):

      Do Liverpool really need a goalscoring midfielder? The problem with Naby Keita
      Liverpool fans want to see the best of Naby Keita but Jürgen Klopp's team is set up to attack through the full-backs, meaning his midfield is a place for tactical discipline and endeavour, not cutting edge in the final third

      The clamour from Liverpool fans to see Naby Keita get an extended run in the team is growing. As good as Jürgen Klopp’s European Champions have been, there is a strong perception that the weakest department in the side is the midfield. Yet it would be a surprise to see the Guinean start against Tottenham Hotspur at Anfield on Sunday.

      Klopp’s default trio are Jordan Henderson, Fabinho and Georginio Wijnaldum. They offer little goal threat. Last season, Henderson and Fabinho hit the net just once each in the league and Wijnaldum got three. The Dutchman has scored once in the first quarter of this campaign. From the sidelines it appears that Keita, with his surging runs forward, and Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain, whose shooting prowess makes him a danger anywhere around the box, should be able to force their way into the team.

      The 4-1 demolition of Genk in the Champions League appeared to endorse the point. Oxlade-Chamberlain’s two goals were spectacular and Keita’s creativity caught the eye.

      Klopp always denies he has a favourite midfield three. “I like them all,” he says with characteristic enthusiasm. But it is not a question of who he likes. It is about who he trusts. James Milner is, for the moment, more likely to be slotted into the side when required.

      The job of the midfield in this side is to provide balance. Sadio Mane, Roberto Firmino and Mo Salah have to be allowed to play to their potential. They need the freedom that comes with knowing there are hard-running colleagues behind them who will ensure there is cover when possession is conceded. They press defenders so ferociously at times that Liverpool could be susceptible on the break. The way Klopp sets up the side minimises the risk.

      More importantly, though, the central three allow Trent Alexander-Arnold and Andy Robertson to range forward at will. The wing backs are crucial to the way this team operate. That much is clear. What is less obvious is how much responsibility this places on the midfield. To do their job effectively, the full backs need to leave space behind them. This is the area that could be dangerous to Liverpool. Protecting Alexander-Arnold and Robertson might not be the most glamorous role but it is one of the most vital.

      An obsession with Steven Gerrard hangs over Anfield. Henderson, whose career crossed over with the club legend, has always suffered by comparison. The 29-year-old was not bought to replace Gerrard, an impossible task, but to be part of a platoon of players to fill the void. There are plenty in the stands – and in the boardroom – who have never valued Henderson’s contribution. Klopp does.

      Keita has suffered from the same syndrome. The obsession with finding an up-and-down goalscoring midfielder was part of the driving force behind buying the 24-year-old. Signing Keita from Red Bull Leipzig a year before his arrival on Merseyside only heightened the sense of anticipation about his potential effect on the team. So far he has been a disappointment.

      Injuries have held him back but it is not that easy. Like many new arrivals in the Premier League from abroad he has struggled with the physicality of the game. In Germany he was quicker, more technically adept and stronger than the majority of his opponents. In England this has not been the case. It affected his confidence. In the words of one insider, “he saw his arse.”

      The problem for Keita – and to a lesser extent Oxlade-Chamberlain, who has proven he can play in this division – is simple: do Liverpool need a goalscoring midfielder? They have won the Champions League and produced an outstanding 18 months of form without one. Any extra goals could be offset at the other end if the balance is disrupted. The midfield of Keita, Oxlade-Chamberlain and Fabinho that played in Genk is a seductive-looking trio but the Belgian side are one of the poorest teams in the Champions League. They have yet to win a game in the competition. It is easier to shine against Genk than, say, Tottenham.

      What could change the situation is if the rest of the Premier League have finally worked out how to stop Liverpool. Manchester United did a good job of nullifying the full-backs in the 1-1 draw at Old Trafford last week. Mauricio Pochettino, a man eager to rebuild his fraying reputation, will undoubtedly turn up at Anfield on Sunday with a plan to stop Alexander-Arnold and Robertson. If opponents manage to kill Liverpool’s wide threat on a regular basis, Klopp will have to change the point of attack. Neutralising the full-backs is easier said than done, however.

      The German needs to rotate to keep the side fresh. December and January will be exhausting months for the squad, with the Club World Cup in Qatar adding two matches that a team chasing their first title since 1990 could live without. Everyone in the squad will get their chance over the next three months.

      Keita’s chances will come but they will likely be against teams that the manager considers weaker opponents. For now, the tried and trusted are a better option for Klopp.


      I've been saying this since Klopp came here, but people don't want to understand, because it's much easier to keep spouting the same old bollocks about "we need more goals from midfield" despite the number of goals we actually score.

      Whether it's laziness, indifference or ignorance makes no difference; the "we need more golas from midfield" argument is facile.
      Frankly, Mr Shankly
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #833: Oct 26, 2019 05:28:48 pm
      Interesting article by Tony Evans in The Independent that touches heavily on this favorite discussion topic here (role of midfielders re scoring goals):

      Do Liverpool really need a goalscoring midfielder? The problem with Naby Keita
      Liverpool fans want to see the best of Naby Keita but Jürgen Klopp's team is set up to attack through the full-backs, meaning his midfield is a place for tactical discipline and endeavour, not cutting edge in the final third

      The clamour from Liverpool fans to see Naby Keita get an extended run in the team is growing. As good as Jürgen Klopp’s European Champions have been, there is a strong perception that the weakest department in the side is the midfield. Yet it would be a surprise to see the Guinean start against Tottenham Hotspur at Anfield on Sunday.

      Klopp’s default trio are Jordan Henderson, Fabinho and Georginio Wijnaldum. They offer little goal threat. Last season, Henderson and Fabinho hit the net just once each in the league and Wijnaldum got three. The Dutchman has scored once in the first quarter of this campaign. From the sidelines it appears that Keita, with his surging runs forward, and Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain, whose shooting prowess makes him a danger anywhere around the box, should be able to force their way into the team.

      The 4-1 demolition of Genk in the Champions League appeared to endorse the point. Oxlade-Chamberlain’s two goals were spectacular and Keita’s creativity caught the eye.

      Klopp always denies he has a favourite midfield three. “I like them all,” he says with characteristic enthusiasm. But it is not a question of who he likes. It is about who he trusts. James Milner is, for the moment, more likely to be slotted into the side when required.

      The job of the midfield in this side is to provide balance. Sadio Mane, Roberto Firmino and Mo Salah have to be allowed to play to their potential. They need the freedom that comes with knowing there are hard-running colleagues behind them who will ensure there is cover when possession is conceded. They press defenders so ferociously at times that Liverpool could be susceptible on the break. The way Klopp sets up the side minimises the risk.

      More importantly, though, the central three allow Trent Alexander-Arnold and Andy Robertson to range forward at will. The wing backs are crucial to the way this team operate. That much is clear. What is less obvious is how much responsibility this places on the midfield. To do their job effectively, the full backs need to leave space behind them. This is the area that could be dangerous to Liverpool. Protecting Alexander-Arnold and Robertson might not be the most glamorous role but it is one of the most vital.

      An obsession with Steven Gerrard hangs over Anfield. Henderson, whose career crossed over with the club legend, has always suffered by comparison. The 29-year-old was not bought to replace Gerrard, an impossible task, but to be part of a platoon of players to fill the void. There are plenty in the stands – and in the boardroom – who have never valued Henderson’s contribution. Klopp does.

      Keita has suffered from the same syndrome. The obsession with finding an up-and-down goalscoring midfielder was part of the driving force behind buying the 24-year-old. Signing Keita from Red Bull Leipzig a year before his arrival on Merseyside only heightened the sense of anticipation about his potential effect on the team. So far he has been a disappointment.

      Injuries have held him back but it is not that easy. Like many new arrivals in the Premier League from abroad he has struggled with the physicality of the game. In Germany he was quicker, more technically adept and stronger than the majority of his opponents. In England this has not been the case. It affected his confidence. In the words of one insider, “he saw his arse.”

      The problem for Keita – and to a lesser extent Oxlade-Chamberlain, who has proven he can play in this division – is simple: do Liverpool need a goalscoring midfielder? They have won the Champions League and produced an outstanding 18 months of form without one. Any extra goals could be offset at the other end if the balance is disrupted. The midfield of Keita, Oxlade-Chamberlain and Fabinho that played in Genk is a seductive-looking trio but the Belgian side are one of the poorest teams in the Champions League. They have yet to win a game in the competition. It is easier to shine against Genk than, say, Tottenham.

      What could change the situation is if the rest of the Premier League have finally worked out how to stop Liverpool. Manchester United did a good job of nullifying the full-backs in the 1-1 draw at Old Trafford last week. Mauricio Pochettino, a man eager to rebuild his fraying reputation, will undoubtedly turn up at Anfield on Sunday with a plan to stop Alexander-Arnold and Robertson. If opponents manage to kill Liverpool’s wide threat on a regular basis, Klopp will have to change the point of attack. Neutralising the full-backs is easier said than done, however.

      The German needs to rotate to keep the side fresh. December and January will be exhausting months for the squad, with the Club World Cup in Qatar adding two matches that a team chasing their first title since 1990 could live without. Everyone in the squad will get their chance over the next three months.

      Keita’s chances will come but they will likely be against teams that the manager considers weaker opponents. For now, the tried and trusted are a better option for Klopp.


      Oh God....

      not Tony Evans.
      Swab
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #834: Oct 26, 2019 05:31:37 pm

      I thought the same, but for once, he's on the money.
      It's not original of course, some of it is just repeating what Klopp has said about our midfield.
      __Tickle__
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #835: Apr 29, 2022 11:45:03 am
      https://youtu.be/zlwVZTtR0zQ

      One of the greatest games broken down by Pep

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