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      Tactics geeks of the world unite...

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      sore monad
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #897: Oct 07, 2022 10:20:13 pm
      4-4-2 makes sense to me against Arsenal. As I said before, for that game I would play Trent as the wide right midfielder. Probably go with Salah and Jota as the starting front 2, with Nunez off the bench.

      If he does go with just the 2 CMs, the tricky question would be whether Hendo's partner (cos Hendo has to start) should be Fab or Thiago. Fab has not been great this season, and I'd usually lean towards Thiago. But I did think Thiago gave it away too much against Rangers, with too many wee fancy flicks instead of playing the simple pass, so it's a close call. Maybe Fab to start and then Thiago as a more attacking option off the bench.
      billythered
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #898: Oct 08, 2022 10:37:37 am
      4-4-2 makes sense to me against Arsenal. As I said before, for that game I would play Trent as the wide right midfielder. Probably go with Salah and Jota as the starting front 2, with Nunez off the bench.

      If he does go with just the 2 CMs, the tricky question would be whether Hendo's partner (cos Hendo has to start) should be Fab or Thiago. Fab has not been great this season, and I'd usually lean towards Thiago. But I did think Thiago gave it away too much against Rangers, with too many wee fancy flicks instead of playing the simple pass, so it's a close call. Maybe Fab to start and then Thiago as a more attacking option off the bench.



      For the 1000000000000000000000th time Trent Alexander Arnold IS NOT A MIDFIELD player, wish ppl would stop trying to put round pegs in square holes 🤪 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      sore monad
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #899: Oct 16, 2022 08:50:58 pm
      4-4-2 today. Jota and Harvey basically playing as wingers. Mo through the middle. Worked a treat. Be interesting to see if we stick with it. Like I've said before, I think it is definitely worth a try for a number of reasons. It allows us to rest one of our ageing (but not past it) CMs, to keep them fresh. And get more energy and youth on the pitch to help our pressing (which was up there with our old pressing today). And Mo gets the benefit of playing more central.

      Again, I stick to my old idea (despite being told for the 1000 time or whatever) that it might suit Trent to play that wide mid/winger role. Harvey is looking good competition though, on today's showing. Be interesting to see what Jürgen does from here, but he does seem to be more open to changing his system now.

      waltonl4
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #900: Oct 16, 2022 09:05:27 pm
      4-4-2 today. Jota and Harvey basically playing as wingers. Mo through the middle. Worked a treat. Be interesting to see if we stick with it. Like I've said before, I think it is definitely worth a try for a number of reasons. It allows us to rest one of our ageing (but not past it) CMs, to keep them fresh. And get more energy and youth on the pitch to help our pressing (which was up there with our old pressing today). And Mo gets the benefit of playing more central.

      Again, I stick to my old idea (despite being told for the 1000 time or whatever) that it might suit Trent to play that wide mid/winger role. Harvey is looking good competition though, on today's showing. Be interesting to see what Jürgen does from here, but he does seem to be more open to changing his system now.



      Give it a rest FFS Trent is a WB and as long as he gets the same back up/cover that Milly had to day we can cut out that weak right side of the defence
      sore monad
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #901: Oct 16, 2022 10:03:50 pm
      Give it a rest FFS Trent is a WB and as long as he gets the same back up/cover that Milly had to day we can cut out that weak right side of the defence

      Why should I give it a rest? You think your opinion's the only one allowed?
      Frankly, Mr Shankly
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #902: Oct 16, 2022 10:51:11 pm
      We should play with less onus on possession. I feel like we've always been a better team under Jürgen on the break. The accuracy of our attacks on the break are so good.
      GERNS
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #903: Oct 16, 2022 11:03:52 pm
      We should play with less onus on possession. I feel like we've always been a better team under Jürgen on the break. The accuracy of our attacks on the break are so good.

      Yeah but City give us that space behind to attack on the counter, cos they’re so arrogant, they think they’re so good we couldn’t hurt them.
      Most other side sit back and defend so don’t leave that space behind to counter into.
      Like they got wise to us
      Scottbot
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #904: Oct 16, 2022 11:05:31 pm
      Loved the switch of Mo through the middle and Harvey on the right of a narrow midfield today. Given our struggles this season the manager has needed to look at the set up and show some tactical nous. First with the 4-2-3-1 and then with 4-4-2 today. Keep it up gaffer.
      waltonl4
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #905: Oct 16, 2022 11:07:42 pm
      Why should I give it a rest? You think your opinion's the only one allowed?

      its not an opinion you have based on fact its your obsession that Mo has just had a few bad games in 2022 despite so many people saying otherwise but you carry on.
      waltonl4
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #906: Oct 16, 2022 11:08:39 pm
      We should play with less onus on possession. I feel like we've always been a better team under Jürgen on the break. The accuracy of our attacks on the break are so good.

      we do struggle to break team down at times and our counter attacks are brutal at times so why not
      Frankly, Mr Shankly
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #907: Oct 16, 2022 11:20:52 pm
      Yeah but City give us that space behind to attack on the counter, cos they’re so arrogant, they think they’re so good we couldn’t hurt them.
      Most other side sit back and defend so don’t leave that space behind to counter into.
      Like they got wise to us

      Maybe giving the smaller teams a bit of possession will tempt them to come out? Just a few yards will make the difference. I know it's a risky business ceding the ball and basically saying 'come on see what you can do with it' but it might just work. I reckon Nunez would absolutely relish that as well.
      sore monad
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #908: Oct 18, 2022 12:15:04 am
      its not an opinion you have based on fact its your obsession that Mo has just had a few bad games in 2022 despite so many people saying otherwise but you carry on.

      Ah I get it! You're pissed off cos we were arguing prior to the Rangers game about Mo. I was saying he was just out of form (and where, as you know, I clearly said he had been out of form since Afcon, not the "few bad games" of your imagination) and would come back into form, and you were suggesting otherwise. And you're pissed off about being almost immediately proved wrong about that (by Mo on the pitch, not by me), and you're bringing your beef about that into a completely different thread, where I was advocating us playing a 4-4-2, and how I thought Trent should fit into that. Hence how my needing to give it a rest about Trent turns out to actually have been about giving it a rest about Mo. Funny how the subconscious works (or funny how things that should be obvious can have remained subconscious).

      Anyway, back on topic. I agree with those saying us playing more on the counter is a good move. Jürgen's original gegenpress was obviously all about hitting on the counter (just from higher up the pitch than was usual). And I always think a 4-4-2 lends itself really well to counter-attacking, cos you have 2 strikers who are close to each other and can link up fast on the break. (It's also generally true that counter-attacking is most effective through the middle, cos through the middle is the shortest route to the opposition goal, with speed being key to good counter-attacking. And having 2 strikers central obviously gives you that extra threat through the middle.)
      PastorGeek
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #909: Oct 29, 2022 08:51:17 pm
      What bothers me this season is that we aren't generating NEARLY as many shots on goal as we did in the past.

      Even when we lost or drew games, we were dominating in possession and shots on goal. Now we're just dominating possession.
      Prime
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #910: Oct 29, 2022 09:51:07 pm
      What bothers me this season is that we aren't generating NEARLY as many shots on goal as we did in the past.

      Even when we lost or drew games, we were dominating in possession and shots on goal. Now we're just dominating possession.
      And even the shots on goal we are generating are pretty low quality.
      sore monad
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #911: Oct 29, 2022 10:45:10 pm
      What bothers me this season is that we aren't generating NEARLY as many shots on goal as we did in the past.

      Even when we lost or drew games, we were dominating in possession and shots on goal. Now we're just dominating possession.

      We aren't even dominating possession like we used to. At least that is my impression - haven't been keeping track of the stats. Games as a whole look a lot more even and end to end. It is not just us getting hit with the sucker punch counter-attacks, which used to be our weakness. Now games seem much more even, with the opposition getting a lot of play around our box over the 90 mins.
      saille29
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #912: Oct 29, 2022 10:48:05 pm
      We look tactically inept at the moment, what's the point in having 2/3 of possession if you do nothing with it apart from pass it around at the back for the majority of it.
      Corners are shocking, we set up the same way every time, and get counter attacked so many times
      We've played this way way all season and if I can see it then people in the game itself will know a lot more than me and will exploit it
      PastorGeek
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #913: Oct 30, 2022 01:01:12 am
      i don't get how we keep conceding early goals
      FATKOPITE10
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #914: Oct 30, 2022 01:05:34 am
      i don't get how we keep conceding early goals

      Just seems to take us ages to get going these days, if we get going at all.
      Fabio Aurelio
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #915: Oct 30, 2022 12:29:11 pm
      I hope that’s the end of the diamond. It’s a formation that has a lot of cons. You lack width going forward, most of your play goes through the middle, and your full backs don’t have protection. You’re also very open to counter attacks. I remember Milan 17 years ago having success with that formation, but look at their midfield: it was Gatusso, Pirlo, Seedorf, Kaka, and then they had a back line of Cafu, Stam, Nesta, and Maldini.

      It would be one thing to play a diamond in the 19/20 season when we had Fab, Gini, Henderson all firing. Hendo and Gini had great engines. Put Bobby at the tip of that and it would have a decent balance. But when you have Fabinho in the worst form of his career anchoring, and Elliot and Thiago either side of him, it just doesn’t work. Neither Elliot or Thiago are box to box to midfielders, and Fabinho needs legs around him to make up for his lack of pace.

      I understand why Klopp tried the formation. We only have one natural winger available (if you can still call him that) in Salah, and Nunez and Bobby are our only other available senior forward players. Salah is at his best when he’s within 25 yards of goal and he’s played well as a striker in the past few games. I much preferred the 442/4231 we used against Arsenal, Rangers and City though.

      Elliot was playing better when positioned wider, we had more protection, and we had more ways to attack. The problem is that we lost Jota who was playing well in the left sided role.

      We could perhaps go with two of Hendo, Fab, and Thiago in the middle, and then play one of Salah or Elliot on the right; one of Carvalho, Jones or Elliot on the left, and two of Bobby, Salah, Nunez up top. It’s not ideal and we wouldn’t really want to have two youngsters on the flanks, but I think it would be better than the diamond. We could play Trent RM but I don’t think it will happen. Milner is also an option. Don’t kill me. I’m just looking at some alternatives.

      We could always go back to 433 and just play Nunez off the left. He could interchange with Bobby. We might still have the midfield of Fab, Thiago, and Elliot, but they wouldn’t have to do as much work as they have to do when playing in the diamond, and they’d have more passing options.

      Another option is we continue playing Bobby behind a two of Nunez and Mo, but we go to a back 3/5.

      It would look something like this:
      https://ibb.co/f01npNh





      The linked formation could easily turn into a 343 with Carvalho off the left, Salah off the right, and one of Nunez or Bobby down the middle.
           
      « Last Edit: Oct 30, 2022 01:55:48 pm by Fabio Aurelio »
      sore monad
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #916: Oct 31, 2022 10:22:28 pm
      I hope that’s the end of the diamond. It’s a formation that has a lot of cons. You lack width going forward, most of your play goes through the middle, and your full backs don’t have protection. You’re also very open to counter attacks. I remember Milan 17 years ago having success with that formation, but look at their midfield: it was Gatusso, Pirlo, Seedorf, Kaka, and then they had a back line of Cafu, Stam, Nesta, and Maldini.

      It would be one thing to play a diamond in the 19/20 season when we had Fab, Gini, Henderson all firing. Hendo and Gini had great engines. Put Bobby at the tip of that and it would have a decent balance. But when you have Fabinho in the worst form of his career anchoring, and Elliot and Thiago either side of him, it just doesn’t work. Neither Elliot or Thiago are box to box to midfielders, and Fabinho needs legs around him to make up for his lack of pace.

      I understand why Klopp tried the formation. We only have one natural winger available (if you can still call him that) in Salah, and Nunez and Bobby are our only other available senior forward players. Salah is at his best when he’s within 25 yards of goal and he’s played well as a striker in the past few games. I much preferred the 442/4231 we used against Arsenal, Rangers and City though.

      Elliot was playing better when positioned wider, we had more protection, and we had more ways to attack. The problem is that we lost Jota who was playing well in the left sided role.

      We could perhaps go with two of Hendo, Fab, and Thiago in the middle, and then play one of Salah or Elliot on the right; one of Carvalho, Jones or Elliot on the left, and two of Bobby, Salah, Nunez up top. It’s not ideal and we wouldn’t really want to have two youngsters on the flanks, but I think it would be better than the diamond. We could play Trent RM but I don’t think it will happen. Milner is also an option. Don’t kill me. I’m just looking at some alternatives.

      We could always go back to 433 and just play Nunez off the left. He could interchange with Bobby. We might still have the midfield of Fab, Thiago, and Elliot, but they wouldn’t have to do as much work as they have to do when playing in the diamond, and they’d have more passing options.

      Another option is we continue playing Bobby behind a two of Nunez and Mo, but we go to a back 3/5.

      It would look something like this:
      https://ibb.co/f01npNh





      The linked formation could easily turn into a 343 with Carvalho off the left, Salah off the right, and one of Nunez or Bobby down the middle.
         

      Good post. Agree with most of it, although not keen on 3 or 5 at the back. Would be a last resort for me (although it would suit Trent) - would prefer the 4-2-3-1 or 4-4-2.

      Quote
      a back line of Cafu, Stam, Nesta, and Maldini

      Yikes. Forgot just what a great defence they had. Got to be one of the best back 4s ever that. Stam the weakest link!
      Fabio Aurelio
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #917: Nov 01, 2022 11:08:15 am
      Good post. Agree with most of it, although not keen on 3 or 5 at the back. Would be a last resort for me (although it would suit Trent) - would prefer the 4-2-3-1 or 4-4-2.

      Yikes. Forgot just what a great defence they had. Got to be one of the best back 4s ever that. Stam the weakest link!
      Thank you


      I’m not a massive fan of the back 3/5, but for now, I think it would benefit us. We’d have more protection, more width, and we could play with Salah and Nunez as strikers.

      I prefer the 442 but problem is that we don’t really have anybody other than Carvalho and Jones (Elliot at a push) to play the left sided role. As much as I rate them both, Carvalho on the left and Elliot on the right for the next few games probably isn’t going to cut it.

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