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      Tactics geeks of the world unite...

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      TheleftpegofRayKennedy
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #736: Oct 26, 2017 09:16:47 pm
      I believe Adam was the trigger player, where if he went than the team went. Firminho is the only one close to that and he has been poor at it this season.

      We have badly missed him this season.

      Odd that we don't seem to be playing Firmino in Adam's role as, I agree, he's similarly good at pressing.
      Scottbot
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #737: Nov 05, 2017 08:35:07 am
      I reckon that is the first time we've heard Klopp openly talk about playing in a different style i.e. Sitting deeper, playing on the counter, 4-4-2. It makes perfect sense given that our side is packed with pace and we've got defensive issues. More of the same please Jürgen. We've got the personnel to play a variety of different styles/tactics.
      HScRed1
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #738: Nov 05, 2017 10:03:55 am
      I reckon that is the first time we've heard Klopp openly talk about playing in a different style i.e. Sitting deeper, playing on the counter, 4-4-2. It makes perfect sense given that our side is packed with pace and we've got defensive issues. More of the same please Jürgen. We've got the personnel to play a variety of different styles/tactics.

      Agree especially when we are playing away there is a onus on the home team to at least play a bit of football. So no need to have both full backs pushed up high and like yesterday also have the 2 midfielders screening the back 4.

      Which brings me on to that 10 minutes of madness in the second half where we could have easily conceded a couple of goals. We were completely in control at that point and That should not be happening against teams like West Ham, similar things have happened during Klopps tenure.
      Highlighting the lack of a proper ball playing No 6 who can dictate the play.

      Jürgen has never mentioned upgrading this position so maybe we should just get used to similar situations in the future.

      Swab
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #739: Nov 05, 2017 01:41:25 pm
      I reckon that is the first time we've heard Klopp openly talk about playing in a different style i.e. Sitting deeper, playing on the counter, 4-4-2. It makes perfect sense given that our side is packed with pace and we've got defensive issues. More of the same please Jürgen. We've got the personnel to play a variety of different styles/tactics.

      He said the same after the Arsenal game I think.

      As far as I can tell, Klopp uses different formations and systems all the time, often changing mid game.

      He likes 433, but also uses 4231, 352, 451, 442, 4411, 343, with fluidity being the key, and the formation changing depending on whether we are attacking, or defending.
      To be honest, they are all variations on the same theme, more or less.
      Much more important is the transition, particularly from attack to defense, and it's in that area where we cause ourselves problems.
      PastorGeek
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #740: Nov 05, 2017 05:44:54 pm
      IMO we currently have the perfect squad for 4-4-2

      With the tricky players, pace, and width we have in our side it makes the most sense.

      This is how we lined up against west ham



      But if we were to pick our strongest 11 in a 4-4-2 for example, as you can see we have so much back up in all areas. We wont even Coutinho ;D, also both of our wingers could do a job up front.



      Many ppl think 4-4-2 is 'ourdated' but our current champions used it effectively to win the league. The other plus point is the same players we have in a 4-4-2 could easily switch back to a 4-2-3-1
      « Last Edit: Nov 05, 2017 08:16:01 pm by PastorGeek »
      Danzel
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #741: Nov 05, 2017 08:25:58 pm
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gDOygNWv50

      I remembered this video when I watched us counter-attack after that corner. Look at the way we set up in the video (Posted by BabuYagu on RAWK). This is from right after the corner was taken. We've got the 5 players defending the 6 yard box, 3 players blocking the runs and 2 players on the edge of the box ready for the counter-attack.



      Defended the corner well and the two quick lads finished the counter-attack. You can see the exact positioning of everyone there. Have we actually improved on defending corners? My memory is probably letting me down here, but I think we've only conceded the one from a corner this season at Watford after Wijnaldum missed the first post clearance? We seem to be struggling a bit more defending free kicks when there is space in behind us which Mignolet has to actually cover most of.

      I reckon that is the first time we've heard Klopp openly talk about playing in a different style i.e. Sitting deeper, playing on the counter, 4-4-2. It makes perfect sense given that our side is packed with pace and we've got defensive issues. More of the same please Jürgen. We've got the personnel to play a variety of different styles/tactics.

      It was a very interesting game from a tactical viewpoint. Or at least it was for us. Wasn't able to watch the game with the concentration I usually do, so I watched it again and saw some interesting things. Don't think I've ever seen us play with so much rotation going on with the front four and in midfield. We were constantly switching positions, changing our shape etc. Defensively we indeed looked like a 4-4-2:



      It was very clear how much we changed positions. Mane would often find himself in midfield (any of the positions), Firmino too.

      Our offensive formation was slighly different and we played with a square shape in the middle to get through West-Ham's lines:

      You can clearly see it here: the base in midfield with Can and Wijnaldum, two of the front four (any of them, they switched all the times) in front of them and the other two pushed a bit wider. Here it's Mane and Salah who have come inside from the wings, Alex and Firmino are the front two.



      A minute later, again, we're in possesion, square shape with the base in midfield, but on this occasion it's Mane and Alex who have come inside and Salah and Firmino are the front two.



      The four of them constantly changed positions, dropping into midfield, going wide, ... West-Ham couldn't live with their constant movement.

      Many ppl think 4-4-2 is 'ourdated' but our current champions used it effectively to win the league. The other plus point is the same players we have in a 4-4-2 could easily switch back to a 4-2-3-1

      We use this tactic against teams that sit deep and then it works, we did something similar against Huddersfield. I don't think we can play this sort of 4-4-2 against better teams, we'd get overrun in midfield, something we experienced for a small spell in the second half against the Hammers.



      sore monad
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #742: Nov 06, 2017 02:11:11 pm
      As somebody who's been banging on about us playing 4-4-2 for the last 2 years, I'm delighted to see us starting to play it, and it working very well on Saturday. I don't think it needs to be played every game - against the better teams an extra midfielder might be preferable ( although 4-4-2 is better on the counter-attack than 1 up front. But I don't think we will sit deep and counter from there much, it's not Jürgen's style, albeit we have the players to do it).

      I basically just think that the extra striker against weaker teams gives you more chance of scoring. Also means you can have a player coming back towards the ball and pulling defenders out of position, rather than having everybody running from midfield towards the defence.

      As Danzel says, there was a lot of rotation. It was actually 4-2-4 at times, and the front 4 all took turns at being strikers. Salah is the closest to a striker of the 4 of them in my opinion. Not cause he's the best finisher, but because he's the one with the knack of getting into the best positions. His movement off the ball is great, he reads the play really well.
      Robby The Z
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #743: Nov 06, 2017 05:04:26 pm
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gDOygNWv50

      I remembered this video when I watched us counter-attack after that corner. Look at the way we set up in the video (Posted by BabuYagu on RAWK). This is from right after the corner was taken. We've got the 5 players defending the 6 yard box, 3 players blocking the runs and 2 players on the edge of the box ready for the counter-attack.



      Defended the corner well and the two quick lads finished the counter-attack. You can see the exact positioning of everyone there. Have we actually improved on defending corners? My memory is probably letting me down here, but I think we've only conceded the one from a corner this season at Watford after Wijnaldum missed the first post clearance? We seem to be struggling a bit more defending free kicks when there is space in behind us which Mignolet has to actually cover most of.

      It was a very interesting game from a tactical viewpoint. Or at least it was for us. Wasn't able to watch the game with the concentration I usually do, so I watched it again and saw some interesting things. Don't think I've ever seen us play with so much rotation going on with the front four and in midfield. We were constantly switching positions, changing our shape etc. Defensively we indeed looked like a 4-4-2:



      It was very clear how much we changed positions. Mane would often find himself in midfield (any of the positions), Firmino too.

      Our offensive formation was slighly different and we played with a square shape in the middle to get through West-Ham's lines:

      You can clearly see it here: the base in midfield with Can and Wijnaldum, two of the front four (any of them, they switched all the times) in front of them and the other two pushed a bit wider. Here it's Mane and Salah who have come inside from the wings, Alex and Firmino are the front two.



      A minute later, again, we're in possesion, square shape with the base in midfield, but on this occasion it's Mane and Alex who have come inside and Salah and Firmino are the front two.



      The four of them constantly changed positions, dropping into midfield, going wide, ... West-Ham couldn't live with their constant movement.

      We use this tactic against teams that sit deep and then it works, we did something similar against Huddersfield. I don't think we can play this sort of 4-4-2 against better teams, we'd get overrun in midfield, something we experienced for a small spell in the second half against the Hammers.

      Going to watch again now. I thought it was a 4-2-3-1 but like you, I was rather distracted (taking care of my Mother while my Dad is in hospital - and believe me, Dad has the easy part of this  :'( ). So thanks for this post and I'm going to re-examine.
      Robby The Z
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #744: Nov 06, 2017 09:02:59 pm
      Enjoyed re-watching this more than I usually do as I didn't remember it as well as when I normally focus on a live match. No doubt the movement from the front four was impressive, especially (for me) that from Firmino. If I were to vote again I might select him, although Salah was impressive as well. Oxlaide-Chamberlain was alright but I thought he showed at times he is still getting up to speed with the system.

      As much as Gini and Emre playing their roles well, I thought the fullbacks being more reserved going forward was an important detail Saturday as well. Plus both Gomez and Moreno made a number of successful interventions. I have been wanting to see Robertson more and still would, but Alberto has improved so much on the defensive side.
      Breeding-Reds-In-The-434
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #745: Nov 06, 2017 09:20:59 pm
      Enjoyed re-watching this more than I usually do as I didn't remember it as well as when I normally focus on a live match. No doubt the movement from the front four was impressive, especially (for me) that from Firmino. If I were to vote again I might select him, although Salah was impressive as well. Oxlaide-Chamberlain was alright but I thought he showed at times he is still getting up to speed with the system.

      As much as Gini and Emre playing their roles well, I thought the fullbacks being more reserved going forward was an important detail Saturday as well. Plus both Gomez and Moreno made a number of successful interventions. I have been wanting to see Robertson more and still would, but Alberto has improved so much on the defensive side.

      The pace of Ox could help us in the defensive category in that the pressure for Moreno to get forward isn't as vital. Ox's speed allows the full backs to stay back and defend more, something Klopp hasn't asked them to do this much of until now. Most of that has to be AOC's presence, right?
      Scottbot
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #746: Nov 21, 2017 10:22:41 pm
      Tactics kill us every time we need to simply dig in and spoil a game. I'm not sure if a Jürgen team is capable of it. A lot of posters getting stuck into the midfield, into Moreno, into Henderson etc and sure there were some individual errors BUT ask yourself what would a mourinho team (as much as I hate to say it) do in that second half? They would drop off, deny any space, let the opposition back four have all the time in the world, screen their front players and turn the game ugly.

      Why can't we do it? You have got to have that in your locker and tonight was the time to do it. Is it because our players spend so much time on Gegen-pressing that they simply don't have it in them to drop and screen? I watched our forward players tonight during the 2nd half, yes they put in a shift trying to defend but all too often you see them come out to half press defenders on the ball at the half way line only to be caught out in front of the ball and out of position two passes later. There is ALWAYS space for opposition teams when they play us, always a chance, always some hope. Our back line should be sitting edge of the area, middies just in front of them, our front players should be dropping off with eyes in the back of their head screening the danger men in the other side. And for fucks sake if there is a player like Banega running the game thenget frickin closer to the guy, get a player on his heels, a player on his toes and don't give him the time to get his head up and pick a pass for 45 minutes like we did tonight.

      You can see that Klopp has made some adjustments defensively, the full backs seem a little less adventurous and we have looked a bit more compact, slightly less gung-ho but tonight was embarrassing. Parking the bus is the easiest thing in the world to coach but we don't seem capable of it.
      HScRed1
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #747: Nov 22, 2017 08:13:46 am
      Players with a few brain cells would help.

      Knowing we are under the pump not one forward took it upon themselves to to hold onto the ball rather than play some risky pass or run into a corner and turn the ball over.
      Coutinho again highlighted his limitations in midfield, bypassing his duties by wanting to play as a forward.

      Simple template to playing against us, press aggressively and the likes of Gini and more so Henderson will sh*t they're pants.

      The third goal was so bad, when you need a cool head to put his foot onto the ball and play out the last few minutes, Henderson with acres of space and time knowing he needs a couple of touches to bring the ball under control just hoofs it up field, a simple pass out to the full back and the ball played a few times along the back line we would have been home 2-3.

      Keita can not arrive soon enough. A player who can turn with the ball, put in a tackle and comfortable holding onto the ball.
      Scotia
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #748: Nov 22, 2017 08:18:13 am

      Coutinho again highlighted his limitations in midfield, bypassing his duties by wanting to play as a forward.


      This part I agree with.

      He was self-indulgent last night - especially in second half but also in first.

      Rather than comparing Henderson and Banega some geniuses might wanna consider what impact the little Argentine (on that form) would have had in Cou’s place.
      HScRed1
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #749: Nov 22, 2017 08:52:49 am
      This part I agree with.

      He was self-indulgent last night - especially in second half but also in first.

      Rather than comparing Henderson and Banega some geniuses might wanna consider what impact the little Argentine (on that form) would have had in Cou’s place.


      No idea why posters are comparing a No10 to a No6.

      I wouldn't be surprised if it was Coutinho's job to stay on Banega and given the amount of time he was getting on the ball it's no surprise Coutinho was hooked and rightly so.

      Scottbot
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #750: Nov 22, 2017 09:27:40 am
      No idea why posters are comparing a No10 to a No6.

      I wouldn't be surprised if it was Coutinho's job to stay on Banega and given the amount of time he was getting on the ball it's no surprise Coutinho was hooked and rightly so.



      I strongly suspect he wasn't mate, I don't think Jürgen is the sort of manager who hands out specific defensive assignments, especially not to players like Coutinho.

      I think people are too quick to simply point the finger at this player or that player as if changing that one person would have meant for a different results. It's our tactics defensively that cost us. A player like Van Dyke would certainly help us at set pieces (I'm sure he would have a real impact in that department) but from open play I guarantee he will be exposed and asked to play in space against quicker more mobile players. It's the nature of how we play and are set up. Jürgen said that we are the sort of team that 'have to control the game with the ball' rather than being able to control a game without it (which is what Mourinho has been doing for years). I duisagree, we should be able to flick the switch and be comfortable to play without the ball for stretches of a game, play compact, drop deep and be comfortable not to see much of the ball. It's frustrating.
      HScRed1
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #751: Nov 22, 2017 09:42:23 am
      I strongly suspect he wasn't mate, I don't think Jürgen is the sort of manager who hands out specific defensive assignments, especially not to players like Coutinho.

      I think people are too quick to simply point the finger at this player or that player as if changing that one person would have meant for a different results. It's our tactics defensively that cost us. A player like Van Dyke would certainly help us at set pieces (I'm sure he would have a real impact in that department) but from open play I guarantee he will be exposed and asked to play in space against quicker more mobile players. It's the nature of how we play and are set up. Jürgen said that we are the sort of team that 'have to control the game with the ball' rather than being able to control a game without it (which is what Mourinho has been doing for years). I duisagree, we should be able to flick the switch and be comfortable to play without the ball for stretches of a game, play compact, drop deep and be comfortable not to see much of the ball. It's frustrating.

      I'm not talking about a man marking job but the fact that Banega was being given a free ride I'm sure was one of the reasons Coutinho was hooked along with him being so wasteful.
      Can brought on to offer a bit more protection sort if worked till the last 60s of madness.
      Scottbot
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #752: Nov 22, 2017 12:57:18 pm
      I'm not talking about a man marking job but the fact that Banega was being given a free ride I'm sure was one of the reasons Coutinho was hooked along with him being so wasteful.
      Can brought on to offer a bit more protection sort if worked till the last 60s of madness.


      Yes mate, we regained a modicum of control in the game after the subs and it was good to see Klopp respond a bit more quickly as there have been times in the past where the changes have come too late. In truth we should have scored a 4th goal, we certainly had a couple of opportunities at 3-2 to close the game out. But even after the changes Benega still had all day to pick a pass. On another note he is player I have admired for years and years, would have loved to have seen him in a Red shirt.
      Scotia
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #753: Nov 22, 2017 01:00:13 pm
      Yes mate, we regained a modicum of control in the game after the subs and it was good to see Klopp respond a bit more quickly as there have been times in the past where the changes have come too late. In truth we should have scored a 4th goal, we certainly had a couple of opportunities at 3-2 to close the game out. But even after the changes Benega still had all day to pick a pass. On another note he is player I have admired for years and years, would have loved to have seen him in a Red shirt.

      He’s a talent no doubt but I feel last night was his very, very best and maybe a little misleading.

      I’ve seen him be a huffy, petulant little f#cker too and offer hee haw........
      trebor12
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #754: Nov 22, 2017 07:43:05 pm
      To be honest I don't think any left sided CB in the league  would want to play next to Moreno. As much has he has improved a little so far this season, for me it's about his football brain (or lack of) and the way we set up and tactics all rolled into one. The role of the full back is to cover that side of the pitch against primarily on coming attacks, well that's my take on it. My take on it is the full back has to defend or stop that oncoming attack before it gets to the next defender or CB and Moreno can't do that and even VVD won't be able to cope with that I don't think. I really thought that's what defending in a team was, well it was when ever I played. I mean if you have a defencive midfielder surely his job is to break up attacking play before it gets to the "danger zone". Our goalkeeper is the last line of defence isn't it. It's about trying to stop that ball from hitting the onion bag. Our players don't seem to want to take on responsibility. If the keeper has little to do in a game then that's good defending isn't it. Then there's no wonder our back 5 have arses you couldn't get a rizla paper in. We don't set up to defend and I have to blame the tactics. The high line, the high press, gegen or whatever you call it and it's starting to get on my last f**king nerve if I'm honest. I think the majority on here would defend Klopp cos he's a character and smiley and that. I for one think that the way we play we are light years away from the promised land. Unless he changes things we can have the most expensive players in defencive positions that we can buy and we would still make the same mistakes. Slaughter me if you want. Our attack looks sublime, some would say the best in the league but Cups and titles are not won with just a good attack.
      crouchinho
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #755: Nov 30, 2017 01:48:17 am
      After tonight, anyone else liking the idea of sticking to the 4-2-3-1 rather than the 4-3-3(ish) formation we use?

      Having two midfielders sit deeper and pick their moments to get forward seemed to look more fluid than having just the one sitting deep and letting two others get forward. Also freed up AOC to roam and impact the game between the lines.

      Having Coutinho in place of AOC would allow us to have our four best players on the pitch at once and closer together.

      Moving forward we could have Keita, who plays behind the ball, alongside (probably) Henderson which restricts the amount of ground Hendo would be liable for and not put so much emphasis on him protecting our back four. Also plays to his strengths further up the pitch.

      Keita    Henderson

      Salah     Coutinho     Mane

      Firmino

      Giving our centre backs more options to find an outlet, rather than just Hendo or their fullback, would invite less pressure on us when we have the ball.
      HScRed1
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #756: Dec 06, 2017 11:54:31 pm
      After tonight, anyone else liking the idea of sticking to the 4-2-3-1 rather than the 4-3-3(ish) formation we use?

      Having two midfielders sit deeper and pick their moments to get forward seemed to look more fluid than having just the one sitting deep and letting two others get forward. Also freed up AOC to roam and impact the game between the lines.

      Having Coutinho in place of AOC would allow us to have our four best players on the pitch at once and closer together.

      Moving forward we could have Keita, who plays behind the ball, alongside (probably) Henderson which restricts the amount of ground Hendo would be liable for and not put so much emphasis on him protecting our back four. Also plays to his strengths further up the pitch.

      Keita    Henderson

      Salah     Coutinho     Mane

      Firmino

      Giving our centre backs more options to find an outlet, rather than just Hendo or their fullback, would invite less pressure on us when we have the ball.

      PurpleMonkey
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #757: Dec 07, 2017 12:07:49 am
      Having two midfielders sit deeper and pick their moments to get forward seemed to look more fluid than having just the one sitting deep and letting two others get forward. Also freed up AOC to roam and impact the game between the lines.

      Pretty much how Wijnaldum , Can and Coutinho played today, right?
      crouchinho
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #758: Dec 07, 2017 12:16:00 am
      Pretty much how Wijnaldum , Can and Coutinho played today, right?

      I think we almost played a 4-4-2 tonight?

      Salah and Firmino up top with Mane and Phil occupying the flanks most of the time.

      But the midfield having two men sit deeper was definitely used tonight. Worked a treat. Will work even better when we have elite midfielders in there (i.e. Keita).

      Hope it continues!

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