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      Tactics geeks of the world unite...

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      harrydunn08
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #920: Jan 30, 2023 05:52:04 pm
      I don't even know where you would start with the tactics for the most part this season.

      Today was no different and I cannot fathom the way we lined up in the forward positions.

      Elliott forced wide right when he's always wanting to cut in on his left not go wide. Gakpo playing like a lost doll through the middle and Salah virtually invisible on the right.

      The money spent on Nunez and Gakpo, both good players I believe, to have no real idea of how and where to play them is bizarre.

      We're pressing one minute then dropping off the next no cover for the attacking fullbacks apart from Bajcetic today but he's just a kid.

      Then Hendo comes on running around like a lunatic leavinf holes all over the place.

      An absolute mess.

      More problems than answers at the minute.  The return of VVD, Jota, and Diaz will help by giving us some more options, but it won't solve all of our problems -- only paper over some cracks.  If we get everyone fit, I'd like to see us play with a 4-2-3-1 to try to limit the number of average CM's we have to put on the pitch and allow us to get more attacking quality.  Then, scrap the high line and defend with numbers behind the ball. 
      srslfc
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #921: Jan 30, 2023 08:33:14 pm
      Bajcetic      Keita

      Salah          Elliott         Gakpo

      Nunez
      harrydunn08
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #922: Jan 30, 2023 09:46:26 pm
      Bajcetic      Keita

      Salah          Elliott         Gakpo

      Nunez

      When everyone is fit, I'd have Jota on for Elliot and Diaz for Gakpo.  Then have Gak, Harv, Bob, and Fabio playing 20-30 minutes per match rotating in for the starting attack. 

      Still leaves problems to fix at CM, CB, and RB, but it would be a step in the right direction....
      HScRed1
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #923: Jan 31, 2023 05:58:34 pm
      srslfc
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #924: Apr 19, 2023 10:17:11 am
      After Trent's performance the other night it does appear we are looking at where he plays especially when we have the ball. I'm not totally convinced it's been as thought through as you would hope, more a copycat from Pep that temporarily solves the issues in CM.

      If it is how the coaching team and Jürgen see the way forward then we need to recruit accordingly and could be why MacAllister has become a real target as he could easily play they Henderson role the other night as he had the legs for it.

      The calls to move Trent into the double pivot role will only intensify and I wouldn't be against that in principle but to do that were totally changing the make up of this side from back to front.

      We'd need to buy looking at a new RB at the very least but is also poses mutiple questions further forward. For arguement sake if we lined up like this:

      RB    Konate    Virgil    Robertson

      Trent     Fabinho

      Do we then see Gakpo as the 10 with Salah, Diaz wide with Nunez as the 9? This actually does work but then leaves us having to cover four positions with our starting attackers and too many CM not playing, as we will definitely buy at least one of those.

      It's more likely that we'll keep Trent at RB and refine the inverted fill back role he's been playing but the CM ahead of him needs to be that one to shift to cover the RB slot. It's really a 2 2 box midfield when Trent moves inside.

      The other question is do we want Konate isolated week in week out as well as that will massively impact him.

      A lot of questions for how we set up the rest of the season, how this impacts the squad as it stands and more importantly how it impacts our recruitment in the summer.

      I hope that it's not a flavour of the month tactic and we haven't thought about how this affects what profile of player we but this summer.
      « Last Edit: Apr 19, 2023 03:50:54 pm by srslfc »
      Harrisimo
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #925: Apr 19, 2023 01:18:25 pm
      The 'inverted' full back position was not invented by Pep. It was used by Arteta very early on in his time at Arsenal.Trent's position hasn't been that far off an 'inverted' full back anyway.

      The decision Klopp has to make is whether to play Trent as an out and out box-to-box genuine midfielder. To use a well worn phrase - it's a no brainer.

      All the good stuff about Trent has been his support play. Take that out of his game and he isn't up to standard as a pure defensive full back. How many of our current midfield squad are irreplaceable- none. So giving Trent a midfield place is not dropping any of them. Just a matter of who plays right full back. Gomez is the logical or even Milly in an emergency.
      Harrisimo
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #926: Apr 19, 2023 01:34:41 pm
      The attacking game plan I would put forward for next season is with Trent as box-to-box. Nunez genuine No.9..(not false) with 2 additions to midfield squad. One holding and one attacking. Nunez central, Mo on his right, left a choice of Diaz, Jota and Gakpo.

      No more confusion over where Nunez plays, or for that matter Gakpo.

      srslfc
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #927: Apr 19, 2023 01:34:53 pm
      The 'inverted' full back position was not invented by Pep. It was used by Arteta very early on in his time at Arsenal.Trent's position hasn't been that far off an 'inverted' full back anyway.

      Pep used it with Lahm at Bayern long before Arteta was even a coach
      Lallana in Pyjamas
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #928: Apr 19, 2023 01:44:44 pm
      The 'inverted' full back position was not invented by Pep. It was used by Arteta very early on in his time at Arsenal.Trent's position hasn't been that far off an 'inverted' full back anyway.

      The decision Klopp has to make is whether to play Trent as an out and out box-to-box genuine midfielder. To use a well worn phrase - it's a no brainer.

      All the good stuff about Trent has been his support play. Take that out of his game and he isn't up to standard as a pure defensive full back. How many of our current midfield squad are irreplaceable- none. So giving Trent a midfield place is not dropping any of them. Just a matter of who plays right full back. Gomez is the logical or even Milly in an emergency.

      Trent is not a box to box midfielder in any stretch of the imagination

      And the current tactics aren’t about putting Trent into midfield - it’s about getting him on the ball in various areas . It’s not about moving him into the middle and then bringing in a right back.

      Trent can get on the ball and create in many areas of the pitch and it’s mainly from the centre or right hand side - but it’s not box to box



      The way we played was more a 3-5-2 at times
      Harrisimo
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #929: Apr 19, 2023 01:48:47 pm
      Trent is not a box to box midfielder in any stretch of the imagination

      And the current tactics aren’t about putting Trent into midfield - it’s about getting him on the ball in various areas . It’s not about moving him into the middle and then bringing in a right back.

      Trent can get on the ball and create in many areas of the pitch and it’s mainly from the centre or right hand side - but it’s not box to box



      The way we played was more a 3-5-2 at times

      More confusion.
      Lallana in Pyjamas
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #930: Apr 19, 2023 01:54:53 pm


      It’s not confusion

      It’s adjusting the tactics when we have the ball and then going to a back 4 when we don’t
      Harrisimo
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #931: Apr 19, 2023 01:56:41 pm
      All this stuff about Trent playing the 'inverted' position is not sustainable. Puts too much pressure on the back 3. Konate gets pulled out of position etc.

      It should've only been used as a tester for Trent's eventual destination. And that's a genuine midfield position. All the rest is propaganda.
      Harrisimo
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #932: Apr 19, 2023 01:58:49 pm

      It’s not confusion

      It’s adjusting the tactics when we have the ball and then going to a back 4 when we don’t

      And that's not confusing..adjusting tactics from one move to another. It'll take other coaches about 20 seconds to exploit it - if they have the players to do it that is.
      FL Red
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #933: Apr 19, 2023 02:00:45 pm
      Pep used it with Lahm at Bayern long before Arteta was even a coach

      And Cruyff used it with Pep long before that ;D
      Lallana in Pyjamas
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #934: Apr 19, 2023 02:01:33 pm
      And that's not confusing..adjusting tactics from one move to another. It'll take other coaches about 20 seconds to exploit it - if they have the players to do it that is.

      It’s been done by teams before -Barce with Alves , Munich with Lahm


      Harrisimo
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #935: Apr 19, 2023 02:05:33 pm
      The 'inverted' full back role isn't used all that much because it puts too much pressure on the remaining three. Can be used when were on the rampage at home or against inferior teams away from home but better teams will exploit it.

      The real answer and one Klopp will eventually come to is with Trent as a midfielder where he can do the most damage.
      Harrisimo
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #936: Apr 19, 2023 02:16:00 pm
      Klopp has nearly always played a 433..fairly straight forward. Flexibility within that set up to a degree but fairly predictable set up. Playing the 'inverted' full back is a bit out of character for Klopp.

      Forced into trying something different but eventually he will revert back to tried and trusted 433. We are not good enough to plat that risky ploy against better teams. Villa will exploit it. It has just proved, if it needed proving, that Trent is or is potentially a top midfielder in the making.
      HScRed1
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #937: Apr 19, 2023 02:40:59 pm
      Playing Trent as an inverted full back carries a lot of risk along with the reward.
      Can probably get away with it against the dross however a quick player through the gap with Konate stretched is a big issue because Henderson and Fab are not going to cover those holes.

      Get some fresh legs next in next season and we could see more success from it without the inherent downsides.
      srslfc
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #938: Apr 19, 2023 03:48:20 pm
      And Cruyff used it with Pep long before that ;D

      Yep.
      -LFC-
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #939: Apr 19, 2023 04:05:11 pm
      As soon as we have some proper midfield reinforcements all talk of Trent becoming a midfielder will die down. He might continue to come inside a bit more in the easier fixtures but I'd be quite happy if we just simply saw a renaissance in form in his usual role.
      chats
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #940: Apr 19, 2023 04:25:40 pm
      Klopp has nearly always played a 433..fairly straight forward. Flexibility within that set up to a degree but fairly predictable set up. Playing the 'inverted' full back is a bit out of character for Klopp.

      Forced into trying something different but eventually he will revert back to tried and trusted 433. We are not good enough to plat that risky ploy against better teams. Villa will exploit it. It has just proved, if it needed proving, that Trent is or is potentially a top midfielder in the making.

      That doesn't really make sense.

      In the 'tried and tested 4-3-3' the centre midfielders are workhorses that allow the front three and wing backs to do their thing. Trent isn't going to go further up the pitch and be a workhorse for another right back.

      Either we go with this inverted fullback for games we dominate the ball and switch back to the standard 4-3-3 for the bigger games - both with Trent starting as a right back or we switch up the middle of the pitch to find an effective way for Trent to play there (probably a 4-2-3-1). I suspect Jürgen will stick to the first though and Trent will line up at RB next season.
      srslfc
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #941: Apr 19, 2023 04:42:43 pm
      That doesn't really make sense.

      In the 'tried and tested 4-3-3' the centre midfielders are workhorses that allow the front three and wing backs to do their thing. Trent isn't going to go further up the pitch and be a workhorse for another right back.

      Either we go with this inverted fullback for games we dominate the ball and switch back to the standard 4-3-3 for the bigger games - both with Trent starting as a right back or we switch up the middle of the pitch to find an effective way for Trent to play there (probably a 4-2-3-1). I suspect Jürgen will stick to the first though and Trent will line up at RB next season.

      Tend to agree and it's why I reopened the discussion in here.

      The only way he starts in midfield is if we buy a new RB and Jürgen totally changed how he sets up there and Trent plays like De Bruyne does.

      Harrisimo
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      Re: Tactics geeks of the world unite...
      Reply #942: Apr 19, 2023 05:27:23 pm
      That doesn't really make sense.

      In the 'tried and tested 4-3-3' the centre midfielders are workhorses that allow the front three and wing backs to do their thing. Trent isn't going to go further up the pitch and be a workhorse for another right back.

      Either we go with this inverted fullback for games we dominate the ball and switch back to the standard 4-3-3 for the bigger games - both with Trent starting as a right back or we switch up the middle of the pitch to find an effective way for Trent to play there (probably a 4-2-3-1). I suspect Jürgen will stick to the first though and Trent will line up at RB next season.

       I more or less already factored in playing 433 against harder teams. The decision will be how to get the best out of Trent.

      I think he should be an attacking midfield. The inverted full back in a sense gives the boss options but it is risky and you can't build a solid game plan to win the league or get top 4 with such a risky game plan. Not with this squad anyway.



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