Change of system

Brendan Rodgers came into Liverpool FC with his own philosophy and system he wanted to play.

He identified players he thought could fit the system and those who couldn't and acted accordingly in removing those who he believed did not.

However when it came to transfering players in, we did not even come close to fulfilling the quota of players required to persist with Rodgers philosophy/system.

Whilst we all appreciate that Rome wasn't built in a day, were more than well aware we have been left short in the striker department and were one or two injuries away from being left up shits creek without a paddle.

So as Rodgers is also a fan of the 4-2-3-1 formation, can we not abandon the 4-3-3 he's trying to instill in the team at this current time.

It would give us the chance to be more solid in midfield where we could probably cope with an injury or two better and would mean we could have a striker on the bench like Borini.

The plus side to this at at the moment is that Reina, Johnson, Agger, Skrtel, Lucas and Gerrard are familiar with the formation and know inside out how it works.

I'm not saying this shouyld be a permanent thing, just making the best of what we have in personell until we can rectify it in January.

The best thing to do know is make us hard to beat and build from there.

Yeh gotta agree, was just on the tactics geek thread stating how difficult it will be for us to be strong defensively with this system.

Offence is the best form of defence and at the moment we are firing blanks yet committing large numbers forward.

We are very predictable at the moment,over reliant on luis and lacking a target in the box playing false strikers all over the shop.

The squad we have would be more suited to a 4-2-3-1 system at present to achieve better results in the short term but there are 2 issues for me..

1)How much time has Brendan been given to turn the clubs fortunes around. Realistically if we finish 12th using 4-3-3 will he be sacked??

2)Are there acutally any reinforcements coming in better than what we have in either January or next summer to make Brendans system work??

Really worried, seen AVB lose his job last year over almost the same thing last year..

Rodgers' change of playing style is systemic. He needs to bed it in and get the team comfortable with it. Whether people agree with the style or not, this is his plan. Until then we're in transition and it'll be hard. We still need some players, but when they do eventually come in (assuming they do) they'll find it easier to slot into a side that knows what it's doing and is comfortable. So I think he has to press ahead, and hope the players we have can do a job unti new year at least.

I'm happy enough with what Rodgers is set out on doing. I don't think he should suspend his original plans just to benefit in the short term.

Rodgers' change of playing style is systemic. He needs to bed it in and get the team comfortable with it. Whether people agree with the style or not, this is his plan. Until then we're in transition and it'll be hard. We still need some players, but when they do eventually come in (assuming they do) they'll find it easier to slot into a side that knows what it's doing and is comfortable. So I think he has to press ahead, and hope the players we have can do a job unti new year at least.

Can't you still pass/move and maintain possession of the ball in various positions?

I am by no means one to technically break down tactics but it seems to me that the basis for his system is that of  1.) Possession  2.) Keep the ball on the ground  3.) Getting the ball back quickly on defense 4.) Aggressive but controlled on both offense and defense.

Those seem like ideas and fundamentals are pretty broad and would seem to me be able to use in various formations.

I'm all for anything that can keep us within touching distance of the top 4 until January and as we stand they are sprinting away from us.

If abandoning the system until January for one that makes us more defensively solid and is better suited for the personell Rodgers has at his disposal, I'd have to say I'd be all for it.

I'm not sure why would a 4-2-3-1 be better suited for us now than a 4-3-3? I think the differences would be minimal with how we're playing now.

It means we would make best use of our extra midfielders and less use of our limited strikers.

Whilst having two deep midfielders to protect the back four that have conceded 7 goals in 3 premiership outings.

When you're drawing blanks, you need to be solid at the back.

Start from the basics.

Can't you still pass/move and maintain possession of the ball in various positions?

I am by no means one to technically break down tactics but it seems to me that the basis for his system is that of  1.) Possession  2.) Keep the ball on the ground  3.) Getting the ball back quickly on defense 4.) Aggressive but controlled on both offense and defense.

Those seem like ideas and fundamentals are pretty broad and would seem to me be able to use in various formations.

I'm not sure what's best, but I think I'll respect Rodgers more if he sticks to his playing principles. That might mean patience and a difficult season but I can take that on the chin if there is progress compared with last season.

It means we would make best use of our extra midfielders and less use of our limited strikers.

Whilst having two deep midfielders to protect the back four that have conceded 7 goals in 3 premiership outings.

When you're drawing blanks, you need to be solid at the back.

Start from the basics.

So basically you're saying he should throw his philosophy out of the window for the possibility of short term succes? Can't say I agree there. You have start somewhere, sometime. Otherwise he just can start over again next season.

The problem with expecting progress is.

When you're conceding on average 2 a game and you're not even averaging scoring one a game, progress is going to be hard.

I admire Rodgers and his philosophy, but at the moment I genuinely believe we haven't the personel to pull it off.

So basically you're saying he should throw his philosophy out of the window for the possibility of short term succes? Can't say I agree there. You have start somewhere, sometime. Otherwise he just can start over again next season.

Completely agree with this. Sure we are going to suffer attacking-wise over the next few months but I would rather keep with the system until January at least until we get more attacking options because the difference would be very minimal. I think as long as Allen isnt injured or banned our midfield can cope, its our defence and attack which is having a few problems at the minute. If Suarez does get injured or banned, then maybe this could be utilised for a few games like but as Bier says, we might aswell just count this season for fu*k all if were gonna change from a system that is trying to be implemented on a full time basis.

If you want to play like this as a club, and believe it's the way to go for the future then you have to stick to it. The longer you put it off the longer it'll take before you can pull it off. Besides, do you really think it's wise for Brendan to start experimenting with other tactics? It's not like he has much experience playing differently. He spend years building this whole philosophy and his tactics.

A 4-2-3-1 is one of Rodgers preferred formations, so its not like its alien to him.

I'm not saying it should be abandoned until next summer, just until January where he can add the pieces to complete the Jigsaw.

Imagine the scenario in our current starting XI, Borini and Suarez pick up injuries in the same game, then what ?

By playing with the one forward we drastically reduce that chance and also provide cover on the bench and are able to bring on a forward if were needing a goal.

Looking at our bench on Sunday was soul destroying without a striker on It.

A 4-2-3-1 is one of Rodgers preferred formations, so its not like its alien to him.

I'm not saying it should be abandoned until next summer, just until January where he can add the pieces to complete the Jigsaw.

Imagine the scenario in our current starting XI, Borini and Suarez pick up injuries in the same game, then what ?

By playing with the one forward we drastically reduce that chance and also provide cover on the bench and are able to bring on a forward if were needing a goal.

Looking at our bench on Sunday was soul destroying without a striker on It.

Like I said before don't know why you can't play a 4-2-3-1 whilst at the same time keep the ball on the ground, maintain possession and close in quickly on defense.

It would seem to me that this tiki taka is a philosophy/style, not a firm, ridged formation.

I'm not sure why would a 4-2-3-1 be better suited for us now than a 4-3-3? I think the differences would be minimal with how we're playing now.

Because if you play with 2 out an out sitters you can push you full-backs on (as we've been doing) and still have some genuine protection if things break down and not be in a position where just about everybody (bar the back two)is in a position of being turned and running back towards our own goal when we lose the ball high up the pitch. Ask Allen and Shelvey to sit deeper and it would make a difference.

PS. Might be worth metging this thread with PD's tactics geek thread and just simply call it Tactics?

It is AZ you're right.

I'm not as much talking about just the formation. The formation is far less relevant than the style of football and other tactics. Whether Brenadan plays a 4-3-3 or a 4-2-3-1, he'll still want the same type of players in those positions. Fast tricky wingers. Good playmaking central midfielders. Good ball playing central defenders,  backs bombing forward.  That's why I said that the differences would be minimal from what we're playing now. A formation itself doesn't dictate style of play.

If injuries is such a worry, then we should start playing people like Assaidi, Pacheco on the wing. Or Downing, or even Joe Cole. No need to change the whole philosophy.

A formation itself doesn't dictate style of play.

No it doesn't but it does dictate the shape of the side and that is what we are discussing isn't it? Shape is massively important, particularly when you lose the ball but also (to a lesser extent) when you have it as well. On Sunday we didn't have a great shape when we lost the ball, it only took 2-3 passes and Arsenal had our lads turned and legging it back towards their own goal. Rodgers can adjust the formation and STILL play the same sort of pressing game, after all we did it for years under Rafa in the same set-up. It wouldn't mean any sort of landmark change in philosophy.

Lining up like this would look alright to me.

       Lucas/Shelvey    Allen

Gerrard.          Sahin.         Sterling

                  Suarez

Would certainly offer more protection to the back 4 and maybe help us control the game more in midfield.

That's just it, I don't think it dictates shape of a side hardly as much as the players themselfs do. Sterling isn't going to play any different in a 4-2-3-1 than he does in a 4-3-3. Joe Allen will still be a dynamic playmaker. Players aren't as easily pinpointed to a position. The difference between 4-2-3-1 and 4-3-3 is minimal, unless you fill those positions with different types of players. And when you do fill those positions with different types of players then there's not going to much left of the original style of play. We weren't playing that much of a classic 4-3-3 to begin with, with Lucas as our most defensive midfielder, Allen almost next to him as our dynamic midfielder/playmaker and Gerrard more in the 10 position.

Lining up like this would look alright to me.

       Lucas/Shelvey    Allen

Gerrard.          Sahin.         Sterling

                  Suarez

Would certainly offer more protection to the back 4 and maybe help us control the game more in midfield.

That works for me. But once again, I don't really see the big difference. None of those players would play different in those positions than they would in a 4-3-3, not if the rest of the philosphy stays the same.

hat's just it, I don't think it dictates shape of a side hardly as much as the players themselfs do. Sterling isn't going to play any different in a 4-2-3-1 than he does in a 4-3-3. Joe Allen will still be a dynamic playmaker. Players aren't as easily pinpointed to a position.

I disagree completely. Tell Jonjo Shelvey (or Sahin) he is playing as one of a two in a 4-2-3-1 and i'll bet he makes more of an effort to play deeper (and closer to Allen) than he did on Sunday. In fact Allen could played a little deeper himself if i'm honest. We were gung-ho on Sunday against a side full of technical ability and pace (despite what the dicks in the media would have us believe). It was a bit naive for me, particularly this early in the season whilst the players a re still grapsing things.

That works for me. But once again, I don't really see the big difference. None of those players would play different in those positions than they would in a 4-3-3, not if the rest of the philosphy stays the same.

But the issue on Sunday was having both full-backs high up the pitch and (on several occasions) 2 of our 3 central middies also in pretty advanced positions. Against the lower sides in this division that's fine but against the gooners, not so good.