Change of system

I disagree completely. Tell Jonjo Shelvey (or Sahin) he is playing as one of a two in a 4-2-3-1 and i'll bet he makes more of an effort to play deeper (and closer to Allen) than he did on Sunday. In fact Allen could played a little deeper himself if i'm honest. We were gung-ho on Sunday against a side full of technical ability and pace (despite what the dicks in the media would have us believe). It was a bit naive for me, particularly this early in the season whilst the players a re still grapsing things.

That's part of the style though. In possession alot of movement, a dynamic midfield. Having possession is the defense. At the same time, putting early pressure when losing possession. Unless that's changed I don't see their different positions having a major impact on the way we play.

But the issue on Sunday was having both full-backs high up the pitch and (on several occasions) 2 of our 3 central middies also in pretty advanced positions. Against the lower sides in this division that's fine but against the gooners, not so good.

Again, that's how Brendan's plays. At Swansea he did that too. I don't think the positions of the fullbacks or central midfielders would change in possession  because we switch to a 4-2-3-1, unless Brendan's drops his whole philosophy.

That's part of the style though. In possession alot of movement, a dynamic midfield. Having possession is the defense. At the same time, putting early pressure when losing possession. Unless that's changed I don't see their different positions having a major impact on the way we play.

I think Rodgers might need to temper it a little otherwise I can see us shipping more goals. 7 in 3 games is pretty concerning and whilst I think the lads have looked good in possession at times we don't like doing enough at the other end to compensate for the defensive failings. Something has to give, particularly with two tough games ahead. The thought of just 1 point from the opening 5 games is a pretty scary one and would have us sitting bottom of the table. I haven't lost faith with Rodgers methods at all, in fact it's the way I like to see us play BUT it all looks like a little bit too much for the players to compute all at once and of course it hasn't been helped that he hasn't exaclty been backed to the hilt by the owners.

I think we need to be patient. We've only played a few games. I get the idea some people think it'll get only worse. Patience is key here, for us, but also for the players.

I think we need to be patient. We've only played a few games. I get the idea some people think it'll get only worse. Patience is key here, for us, but also for the players.

You watch all the patience fly out of the kitchen window (along with the sink, the cooker and the all the cutlery) if we lose our next two and are bottom of the league!

I'll still be patient then, but some seem to be losing patience already. I grew up in the Netherlands with the type of football culture that Brendan stands for. Cruijff has basically influenced Dutch football culture through and through with his ideas. 4-3-3 possession style football is the most common type of football here and has been for the last 20 years that I can remember. It's what I played and I teach it to my youth team aswell now. I have faith in it, and I'm patient.

I think we are going to struggle for the foreseeable future. Sunderland away and Utd at home is it not? The Stadium of Light having the worst playing field I've seen of any football league side this season is just going to make us even more disjointed, no matter what the formation, then we have United at home.

If we are on 1 point from 5 games the pressure is sadly going to mount.

As far as I am concerned, professional footballers on the wages that our lot are paid should work day and night to know their lines.
If they can't then the manager is paid to ship them out and get ones who can. The problem is always going to be what if we play the same as someone else who has better players. That is where the manager really comes into it. Lets hope BR is given time and is up to it.

If you want to play like this as a club, and believe it's the way to go for the future then you have to stick to it. The longer you put it off the longer it'll take before you can pull it off. Besides, do you really think it's wise for Brendan to start experimenting with other tactics? It's not like he has much experience playing differently. He spend years building this whole philosophy and his tactics.

Agree here Bier as you say Brendan has a clear idea and philosophy of how he wants us to play and like you I don't see too much difference in his he would set out his players in a 4-2-3-1.

With the possibility of one of the other midfielders sitting deeper with Allen I'm not sure it's much of a difference.

It depends on how the 4-3-3 is lined up. If it's lined-up like:

Allen
           Sahin
Gerrard

Than it's virtually the same as a 4-2-3-1. Our wide players are up and down the pitch so it's a minimal difference if that.

If the 4-3-3 is lined up

           Allen
Gerrard      Sahin

Than it would be different. As it is, Gerrard is a natural AM and Sahin a deep-lying CM, so it ends being like the former rather than the latter.

No matter what though, we don't have that 1 in 4-2-3-1 or any kind of a dominate striker to lead the line.

The 4-3-3 is so flexible it's almost impossible to say which formation we play at times. Especially the way the players close down and press opposition players more, it can often skew the formation throughout the game.

It's all about players covering and looking out for each other as people will get dragged around. Arsenals goal, the first especially showed how much this system is open to a counter attack especially when the full back are pushed right up.

Sometimes it's even a 3-7 when the full backs push so far up even when defending!

IMO everyone here were right, just say adjust our playing system instead of change of system. Everyone agreed BR's philosophy is good for the future but I don't believe his football is strictly to 4-3-3 formation. Like many said given enough time and budget BR can totally build his 4-3-3 team but at our current situation I'd like to see some adjustment.

For me ideally if Lucas is available I want to see the following team


                                         Lucas      Sahin
                                                 Allen
                              Gerrard                       Sterling
                                                Suarez
                                             
 
My main point is Allen's game intelligent, passing ability, creativity, movement, athletic and attitude can offer hugely to the team if play him in more attacking role. While Sahin can play exactly what XA did and I think he capable to do so. Lucas do the Mascherano job,  Gerrard out wide can use his cross and cut in shoot with less defensive burden. Suarez need detail instruction to do thing a bit simple and focus on scoring. This increase chance to score from midfield too as Sahin and Allen were capable to score goal.

This way nothing against the possession, patient, pressing philosophy BR's adopted.

I love all this talk of tiki taka (not).

F**k me, what's all this bollocks about players not fitting the system?.

For f**k's sake, if a player can't pass a ball, move into space to accept a pass, press hard to win the ball back and tackle then they shouldn't be playing football anywhere in the world.

All this tiki taka bollocks is our 'pass and move' philosophy, it pisses me off when i see other sides and managers passing it off as their own style. It's our style, we f**king invented it for f**k's sake!.

All tiki taka pass and move football requires is players that can pass, can make themselves available to receive a pass, controlling the ball, winning the ball back and putting it in the onion bag.

Why do people have to complicate it?. It really does pain me to see Liverpool supporters on here jizzing over tiki taka when it's just a slightly modified copy of the football we invented, perfected and watched others try to emulate.

I'd bet my bottom dollar that the majority of Brendan's philosophy was gleaned from watching Liverpool when he was growing up. The football side that is, obviously the science side will always be a work in progress due to evolution and technological advancement.

Hardcore you are 100% correct,that was why we were the most successfull club in the 1970s and 80s because we had players who could split defences open with long and short range passes. And they knew how to put the ball in the net.

Sometimes I don't know why we bother playing the ball wide. There are never enough people in the box to attack it IMO. Suarez is less than 6'0 I think? Gerrard is the only lad tall enough to challenge and he lurks on the edge.

Why don't we play 4-1-2-1-2 when attacking and 4-3-3 when defending?

I love all this talk of tiki taka (not).

F**k me, what's all this bollocks about players not fitting the system?.

For f**k's sake, if a player can't pass a ball, move into space to accept a pass, press hard to win the ball back and tackle then they shouldn't be playing football anywhere in the world.

All this tiki taka bollocks is our 'pass and move' philosophy, it pisses me off when i see other sides and managers passing it off as their own style. It's our style, we f**king invented it for f**k's sake!.

All tiki taka pass and move football requires is players that can pass, can make themselves available to receive a pass, controlling the ball, winning the ball back and putting it in the onion bag.

Why do people have to complicate it?. It really does pain me to see Liverpool supporters on here jizzing over tiki taka when it's just a slightly modified copy of the football we invented, perfected and watched others try to emulate.

I'd bet my bottom dollar that the majority of Brendan's philosophy was gleaned from watching Liverpool when he was growing up. The football side that is, obviously the science side will always be a work in progress due to evolution and technological advancement.

Is right... We played pass and move last season but lacked a finisher..

A 25 goal a season man last season and would we have been top 4 anyway?

It's not a new system to Liverpool, we invented it.

Rodger's has always admitted he had a philosophy.  He also said that the squad he has at his disposal, affects how he applies this philosophy.  We will see.

 Good thread this and I was saying much the same on here myself in the immediate aftermath of the Arsenal defeat as the topic starter says here. I do take Hardcores point and the brilliant way he put it, but I certainly aren't advocating "over-complicating" things, merely playing 4-5-1 as opposed to 4-3-3. All we need is for our wide men to drop back in a bit, which will make us harder to score goals against.

Id be worried that no matter what system we play we will struggle to score goals. I think we will own the ball in the majority of games but lack a killer pass in the final 3rd and a poacher to sniff out half chances

Id be worried that no matter what system we play we will struggle to score goals. I think we will own the ball in the majority of games but lack a killer pass in the final 3rd and a poacher to sniff out half chances

 I'm a bit of an old centre half meself tho Brian, and as such I'd always tighten up at the back first. We've let in 7 in 3 matches, and priority one for me would be making sure that if we do score a goal, it's enough to get us at the very least a point.

 I'm a bit of an old centre half meself tho Brian, and as such I'd always tighten up at the back first. We've let in 7 in 3 matches, and priority one for me would be making sure that if we do score a goal, it's enough to get us at the very least a point.

Have to agree Mick we are leaking far too easy but Id be more confident of us sorting that out before the gfoalscoring problem

Id be worried that no matter what system we play we will struggle to score goals. I think we will own the ball in the majority of games but lack a killer pass in the final 3rd and a poacher to sniff out half chances

That's it. Feel we're short of creativity and finishing up front. Don't think Gerrard has it anymore to be playing just off the striker or in any other advanced position.

The problem isn't the formation, it's the very high line we play to compress the opposition, with full backs overlapping and no defensive midfielder to break up counter attacks.
In this system the team has to move as one, pouring back but also harrying the opposition ball carrier.
It worked well against city, but not in our other 2 games, because WBA and Arsenal were both looking to counter as we pressed high.
Add to that a number of wasted passes giving the ball away, and players sauntering back instead of harrying and closing and you get 5 goals against, zero scored.

Having said that I think Sahin can make a difference when he is up to speed.

I'm also not a huge fan of wide players cutting inside so the FB can overlap when our centre appears to lack a little disciplne without Lucas.
With Lucas, it works fine, but without him no-one is covering the FB position when they bomb forwards.

Id be worried that no matter what system we play we will struggle to score goals. I think we will own the ball in the majority of games but lack a killer pass in the final 3rd and a poacher to sniff out half chances

Agree Brian.

Our attack seems to be suffering from a combination of not having any real focal point and also as well as lacking a killer ball we are sometimes looking to play the killer ball far too early or when it's not even on and forcing the play too much.

All too evident against Arsenal and something the manager will have to work on as he spoke a lot about protecting the ball and maintaining possession but a few of our players, Suarez and Gerrard especially, don't seem to be on the same page as the manager, so to speak, and both want to be forcing things to happen when it would be more beneficial to pass it around and wait for a better moment.

That's it. Feel we're short of creativity and finishing up front. Don't think Gerrard has it anymore to be playing just off the striker or in any other advanced position.

Disagree with this as I don't think Gerrard can play as a midfielder in a Brendan Rodgers system,or maybe I'll rephrase that and he doesn't want to.

I've mentioned in his players thread that against Arsenal he seemed to want to be everywhere doing everything but ended up doing nothing. To many times he was dropping deep getting the ball of the CB and taking positions where Allen was already there. He should have stayed closer to the front as that is what I'd expect Brendan would want from him. Also doesn't seem to like just playing simple balls and retaining possession and he was constantly trying to force the play.

I would drop him personally but if the boss doesn't and still wants him in the side I see his place in a Rodgers team as one of the forward players along with Suarez and one of Borini, Sterling or Assaidi.