Change of system

Well said WAHS.

At the end of the day, in the last two and a half years we've had four different managers, four different "systems" or "philosophies" and to some extent four different squads.

And for all four in the League, the results simply weren't good enough.

Maybe what we need is to actually try sticking with a "system" for a couple of years before looking for another "system" and expecting that to be the instant fix.

At youth & reserve levell are the players not taught a 4-2-3-1 system by Borrell which was implemented by Rafa so when the reserve players step up to the first team they would slot right into a sytem they are familiar with?.

So why does Rodgers feel the need to deviate from the system which is taught at the Academy?.

The 4-3-3 isn't much different to the 4-2-3-1 in the reserves because we also have two sitting deep with three in front then Suarez high.

When you watch the reserves they set up pretty much the same as the first team and the style is the same and the way they try and play is the same.

The formations aren't set in stone regardless of what images Sky put on screen.

At youth & reserve levell are the players not taught a 4-2-3-1 system by Borrell which was implemented by Rafa so when the reserve players step up to the first team they would slot right into a sytem they are familiar with?.

So why does Rodgers feel the need to deviate from the system which is taught at the Academy?.

 Shabs the idea that a new manager would come in and say "what system are you playing at the academy? Ah righty ho, we'll play that with the first team then" is bonkers, it never happens mate.

At the end of the day, in the last two and a half years we've had four different managers, four different "systems" or "philosophies" and to some extent four different squads.

And for all four in the League, the results simply weren't good enough.

Maybe what we need is to actually try sticking with a "system" for a couple of years before looking for another "system" and expecting that to be the instant fix.

Or maybe just get in a few better players and try building a better balanced squad Bill. Whatever system is used you will have a much great chance of success if you have quality (or the right players ) rather than making do with a mishmash of a squad lacking quality or infact even lacking players for certain positions.

The system should be there to get the best out of the players, not putting square pegs into round holes just so you can play a particular system .

If we had Pele, Ronaldo, Villa and Rush I wouldn't be expecting us to be playing a system with one up front, similarly if you only have one decent striker why try to play as if you have three or four.

The system should be there to get the best out of the players, not putting square pegs into round holes just so you can play a particular system .

I fully understand what you're saying but if the manager believes that a said 'system' is capable of giving us more benefits in the long term than any other, but it requires time to be implemented, then he shouldn't change it every time he finds a difficulty.

Anyway, I saw in your previous posts that you do not believe in Rodgers' system, I disagree but respect your point of view. It's a lot better than saying you like the system and you understand it takes time to be implemented, but still want a quick fix in the face of any kind of adversity.

If you have no variety or aren't Barcelona, which we are a f**king million miles away from being by the way, then you will get found out.

Variety doesn't simply mean a change of formation or system or style of play or whatever you want to call it. Variety can simply mean having a couple of quality players on the bench who pose a different type of threat. We don't have that at the moment.

The hope is that come the end of the transfer window we will.

The system should be there to get the best out of the players, not putting square pegs into round holes just so you can play a particular system .

This is true but it seems to me that everyones beef should be with the owners. They knew all about Br's methods before he came in, they met him, interviewed him and read his dossier or whatever you wanna call it. It's up to them to provide the means for this to work.

Get the monies out lets just hope for a gd transfer window . Make a nice change

Ynwa

Something for the purists.

Around this time two years ago we had our worst start to a premier league season under Roy Hodgson.

The football was dire, the players looked lost in the system he was trying to play.

Roy had us flirting with the relegation places and was eventually sacked and Kenny came in and the system was changed along with some personell.

Players that played under Roy who looked dog sh*te, suddenly got a swagger about them in the new system they were playing and the team went onto show the sort of form that would have secured top 4 football if only it had been replicated in the first half of the season.

Over the years I've seen many clubs flirt with relegation and relinquish their managers, the new managers come in and have to deal with the same players as they don't have the benefit of a transfer window. They come in and do things a little differently and that improves results and they avoid relegation.

Now this is not to suggest we sack Rodgers.

This is merely to highlight that sometimes changes to tactics can yield much better results from pretty much the same group of players.

Was it Martinez last season couldn't pick up a win and Wigan looked totally bereft of confidence and certain for the drop ?

He then went three at the back if I remember and Wigan went on a nice little run and secured their premiership survival for another season.

Changes to tactics, systems and personell can have varying degree's of success, but you don't know if you don't try them.

This is true but it seems to me that everyones beef should be with the owners. They knew all about Br's methods before he came in, they met him, interviewed him and read his dossier or whatever you wanna call it. It's up to them to provide the means for this to work.

Then again, he might have bluffed his way with FSG - what would they know about football to be able to judge him?  They are still novices in that respect.

As I said in another thread, something needs to be done to give the back four more protection - we have looked vulnerable to the counter all season and for a manager (seemingly) not to have addressed that over the 20+ games so far is alarming to me and it will continue to be as long we are leaking goals on the counter attack.

That's just it mate, why don't we have a choice?We should have a F***ing choice, there should be Plan A's and Plan B's with regards to systems and tactics and you should have some variety in your squad of players otherwise you get found out as you are like the preverbial sitting duck.

This is the problem , Rodgers doesn't have a plan B , he didn't have it with Swansea either , plenty of possession and no goalscoring . If things don't turn round in the new year with transfers then Rodgers has nowhere to hide , he had a plan b and loaned him out to the Hammers , people saying Carroll was too cumbersome and wouldn't fit into Rodgers Philosophy of play could well be wrong . 

We have had Rafa,Roy,Kenny and now Brendan is just over two year but the results are the same or even worse. Maybe the time has come to accept we simply do not have the quality we need to progress.

Or maybe just get in a few better players and try building a better balanced squad Bill.

That would obviously help mate. But given the current state of football, you can't bring in anybody new between September and January so it's a null point at the moment - unless we bring in a few more youngsters (which I'd be happy with because I don't think it's the youngsters who've let us down this year)

Whatever system is used you will have a much great chance of success if you have quality (or the right players ) rather than making do with a mishmash of a squad lacking quality or infact even lacking players for certain positions.

Of course it would mate and what's obvious is we don't have the right players to play this current system. If you're going to play like we do, you're gonna be caught on the counter. To counter the counter, you need pace to stop it. Lucas, Allen, Skrtel and Agger aren't quick enough to get across the ground as quickly as needed. At the other end, we have one player to pin our hopes of scoring goals on but if Suarez is missing and/or having an off day there's nothing else as Rodgers seems reluctant to give any of the young forwards a go.

The system should be there to get the best out of the players, not putting square pegs into round holes just so you can play a particular system .

I think this is the problem though mate. Rodgers has come with his idea of how football should be played and tried to get these players to play that system rather than a system that suits the players.

If we had Pele, Ronaldo, Villa and Rush I wouldn't be expecting us to be playing a system with one up front, similarly if you only have one decent striker why try to play as if you have three or four.

But like the point I've just made mate, I think if we did have Pele, Ronaldo, Villa and Rush we would still be playing one of them up front - possibly with one or two others still in the side. Rodgers' system is one up front and I don't think that would be likely to change any time soon even if we had four forwards to choose from.

Cr

This is the problem , Rodgers doesn't have a plan B , he didn't have it with Swansea either , plenty of possession and no goalscoring . If things don't turn round in the new year with transfers then Rodgers has nowhere to hide , he had a plan b and loaned him out to the Hammers , people saying Carroll was too cumbersome and wouldn't fit into Rodgers Philosophy of play could well be wrong . 

All well and good except Carroll is not exactly knocking it out of the park over at West Ham which plays a style very conducive to Andy's style of play, in fact it play a few go out injured..etc.etc..just like it was for the 18 months he was here.

Do I wish him here? Sure we have no bodies at the position, Do I want him to succeed here.? Of course, I have always like him and would love to see it happen.

Truth of the matter is Andy was here and did relatively nothing, so to think he would be some sort of viable 35m Plan "B" on a bench is nothing more than conjecture because in the 18 months here (Apart from his first match against City and the cup match against Everton) Andy did very very little for Kenny and the club over that time.

We clearly dont have the quality players to play the fluent fast paced attacking style of football, its a stupid pipe dream, after the defeat to spurs all i have seen us do is have a lot of possesion, teams now play us and think they can get 3 points because we are trying stupid barca style play and we cant do it.

We need to play to our strengths, get two strikers back up front, a bit of width and keep the passing theory going but mix it up when needed, to play this way and get in the top four we would need to buy 4 top quality players, lets get back to basics and we might just do it..the boring way

We clearly dont have the quality players to play the fluent fast paced attacking style of football, its a stupid pipe dream, after the defeat to spurs all i have seen us do is have a lot of possesion, teams now play us and think they can get 3 points because we are trying stupid barca style play and we cant do it.

We need to play to our strengths, get two strikers back up front, a bit of width and keep the passing theory going but mix it up when needed, to play this way and get in the top four we would need to buy 4 top quality players, lets get back to basics and we might just do it..the boring way

Answer is there no? We don't have two strikers.

Answer is there no? We don't have two strikers.

I would play morgan, or assaidi, or gerrard ect up there with him, just to cause a threat, generally the oppositions back four dont have to mark anyone, because luis wanders to get the ball, they can generally sit back and watch us do sod all.

Maybe something like this

                              Pepe
Johnson      Agger            Skrtel        Enriqe/Robinson



Sterling       Lucas      Shelvey           Suso/Assaidi

                         

         Suarez         Gerrard/Assaidi/Morgan


But tell the 2nd striker to stay up there, pressure/poach and keep the 2 central defenders occupied at all times, then let luis in the gaps he creates

So we are experiencing some pain which is probably avoidable in the short term, is it worth it? My feeling is that it is, yes. People have said that at the very least Brendan should be expected to match last seasons efforts, and my guess is he probably will. It isn't though a tactical breakdown which caused us to lose against Villa, it's quite simply that at crucial moments some of our players didn't do their jobs well enough. They must do better, the manager must do better, but my guess/belief is they will.

 As a footnote I can't help thinking that our much vaunted defensive midfielder is escaping a little lightly on the criticism front. We've conceded 23 goals in 17 matches which is way too high. Of those 23 matches, Lucas has played in the 3-0 loss at West Brom, the 3-2 win at West Ham and the 3-1 home defeat against Villa as well as another game we won 1-0 (I'm not counting Man City as he came off before any goals went in at either end I think). So by reckoning (which is probably wrong admittedly) we've conceded 8 goals in the 4 matches he's played, and 15 in the 13 matches he hasn't. "Freeing up" other players is all very well, but defensive midfielders must defend, otherwise what's the point of them?

I'll leave out the early part of what was a good post because I've personally done the ex manager analysis to death.

On the first paragraph I don't think we can take as a given that we should match last season's finish because I think we have a weaker squad than last year.
If we get through the Christmas period and build in January then I think we can improve. Right now though I think we have a good first team and that's about it.
Overly reliant on youth players filling gaps and it shows.

As for Lucas. I'll give him more time before overly criticise him as he has come back from two serious injuries in the last couple of seasons.
We still have no replacement for him and maybe that's why Kenny had lined up Diame. In that regard I agree we missed out there.

Doesn't have the players to play the system he wants. Gerrard Lucas Allen is one of the most unbalanced midfields in the premiership.

We need to play to our strengths, get two strikers back up front, a bit of width and keep the passing theory going but mix it up when needed, to play this way and get in the top four we would need to buy 4 top quality players, lets get back to basics and we might just do it..the boring way

So the solution is to play 4-4-2 in a league where no one plays 4-4-2 anymore? You run the risk of getting over-run in midfield playing two up these days. Hence, very few teams use it on a regular basis outside of Redknapp at Spurs the past couple of years plus Fergie still uses it at times.

People can bang on about systems all day long.

We need some better players. It's as simple as that.