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      If a player doesn't “Give 100%”...

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      SEANOBYRNE78
      • Forum Emlyn Hughes
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      Re: If a player doesn't “Give 100%”...
      Reply #69: Nov 28, 2012 09:22:12 am
      Glen has been one of our better players this season with exceptional performances. Don't forget the angle you watch the game from is a lot better to judge the flight of a ball immediately than it is when you're playing and for the life of me I have no idea what passes you're referring to either.
      What passes ? Any pass that Hendo plays would be apt .
      bad boy bubby
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      • @KaiserQueef
      Re: If a player doesn't “Give 100%”...
      Reply #70: Nov 28, 2012 09:26:01 am
      Excellent topic BBB, been considering it and I think Diego pretty much hits the nail on the head for me so I'll not add to it in any way just echo these thoughts.

      Thanks Luke. I was (coincidently) getting on to a reply to Diego's post when I read this.

      Plenty of anachronism here. The game has changed and is much more demanding nowadays, players can't be expected to play every game of every competition and deal fine with it. Very few will do. Teams that have tried to do so to different degrees have failed in different fronts - it's not possible to always play the very best of your squad without the luxury of a big money all star squad.

      Recently I've read a scientific study analyzing the impact of European football to small clubs like Auxerre and Villarreal. The Spanish club in particular, very recently the example of how a small city team can still be relatively successful (having reached a UCL semifinal against all the odds), did not have the financial backing to sustain a squad of the same quality in depth of its competitors. With the added fixtures of the European calendar, the club faded and it ultimately sent them to the 2nd division.

      Obviously, fatigue isn't the only explanation for their downfall. To deny the increased impact it has in modern football, however, is living in the past.

      By the way, it's even more anachronistic to say managers did not rotate their teams decades ago. They did... and to do so, for a while they counted on huge squads based on the fact there was a maximum wage for footballers, so it was possible for clubs to sustain a big number of players who were rarely used.

      Rotating teams and prioritizing competitions in detriment of others wasn't so much a feature of the game as it is today, but looking at it as a totally new animal is stretching the point way too much.


      Now that is a reply... nice one. Before I go any further I just want to say; I hope I'm not putting words into your mouth (tell me if I am) - I just want to be clear what you are 'saying'.

      Have I picked it up right that there are, amongst others, two major factors as to why a club might not field it's strongest team? I.E.; 1: without "financial backing" the quality of a squad, by nature, isn't up to the job of competing (at the highest level) in all competitions and... 2: If a small club (Auxerre and Villarreal, for example) don't want to "over-stretch" it's better, long-term, for them to "prioritise". See that I get.

      Would I be right in thinking that, (for the time being anyhow), for us Liverpool fans to grasp the concept of 'not fielding our best possible team' we (or me anyhow  ;D) need a change of mind-set?

      Should I now be thinking; "We aren't a big club right now and we won't be until we have the finance in place (to field a quality, in depth, team in all competitions)"? Wow that is going to be hard.  :-\

      I appreciate your reply mate; it's definitely given me some food for thought.  :nod:
      srslfc
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      Re: If a player doesn't “Give 100%”...
      Reply #71: Nov 28, 2012 10:14:40 am
      Better to think that we are still a big club but FSG haven't fully realised it yet so haven't strengthened the squad accordingly Mouse.

      It's a great topic which I don't have the time to reply to just yet but I do think we more easily accept the manager rotating the squad and therefore not giving 100% than a player on the pitch as its much easier to judge and criticise effort while playing.

      This season I definitely feel Brendan has his hands tied a bit and probably feels the need to change the team to try and get the best out of a quite small squad.
      reddebs
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      Re: If a player doesn't “Give 100%”...
      Reply #72: Nov 28, 2012 11:01:02 am
      That's it '91.

      Thanks 'debs; I appreciate that.

      To be honest I just wanted to see what makes us think the way we do as fans. There is no right nor wrong answers as far as I was concerned - that's why I asked for no rowing and no spamming. How daft was I; eh? 

      I just wanted to, maybe' read something that would make me think "you know what... maybe I should accept us fielding an understrength team, in cups, in the hope of a better league position." [which is something I actually referenced in the O.P. but has got lost in the white noise of 'he who must be heard'].

      I know why we don't accept anything less than 100% from the individual and...  I know why we "prioritise" as a club - money - the league is a better payer but even then I still can't see how that money has enhanced our standing as a club. As a fan I just can't bring myself into accepting institutionalised not giving 100% (strongest team possible = 100%; anything else, by default, is less) - that maybe a failing on my part.

      Thanks for trying.

      * slips out of thread before the Springer Spaniel pup comes back in demanding that we all look at him.  :couch:

      Edit: Oops... too late.  :-\




      It used to p*ss me off no end when Rafa constantly changed the team around, especially after a good performance/win but then started to accept it as a necessary evil.  It's strange how we "accept" things now that in the 70's/80's we would have been scratching our heads at.

      As an example I've been following the progress of our Academy players for 3-4 years now and when I got the chance to go to Anfield for the Anzhi game I was really looking forward to watching a similar team to the ones who played at Young Boys and West Brom (League Cup).  I had "accepted" that we would field a "weakened" team.

      We arrived at our seats just as the team was being announced and I had a brief " ???" when Stevie and Suarez' names were called but it quickly turned to a  ;D when I realised it was a full strength team.

      I long for the days when our bench will have multi million pound players named to replace multi million pound players when tactics need tweeking.  Will I live that long?  I hope so  ;)
      George Lucas
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      • JFT96
      Re: If a player doesn't “Give 100%”...
      Reply #73: Nov 28, 2012 11:09:50 am
      I think the days of superstar benches will die away if FFP does get implemented successfully. We would see a strong base 13 with a few fringe players plus a core of youngsters on the edge - pretty close to our current situation ( just need a few more strength players )

      Another point that I'm not sure has been mentioned is the use of cup games to allow youngsters to gain valuable playing time and also to play alongside more established players - it's something that Wenger did successfully to give experience to players like Fabregas etc. BR seems to by using the away cup games to give our youngsters some valuable playing time
      bad boy bubby
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      • @KaiserQueef
      Re: If a player doesn't “Give 100%”...
      Reply #74: Nov 28, 2012 11:25:51 am
      As an example I've been following the progress of our Academy players for 3-4 years now and when I got the chance to go to Anfield for the Anzhi game I was really looking forward to watching a similar team to the ones who played at Young Boys and West Brom (League Cup).  I had "accepted" that we would field a "weakened" team.

      We arrived at our seats just as the team was being announced and I had a brief " ???" when Stevie and Suarez' names were called but it quickly turned to a  ;D when I realised it was a full strength team
      .

      You touch on a fair enough point 'debs. I was at last Thursdays game and didn't know what to expect - after all we did field our strongest team, (as you point out), against Anzhi and a win meant we could 'rest easy'. So the team selection was a tad disappointing (as too was the result btw).

      Maybe the time has come for me to accept this may happen more often and I'll have to take a lead from the club and "prioritise" or be more selective about the games I attend... giving any and all cup games a bye.

      Sad really but with money so tight (as it is for most fans, I guess) I'd rather spend it watching a full strength team trying their damnedest than paying my money and taking my chances with a cup game... ah well.   :-\
      George Lucas
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      • JFT96
      Re: If a player doesn't “Give 100%”...
      Reply #75: Nov 28, 2012 11:34:37 am
      This has been happening for decades though ?

      It will happen the same amount it has done for at least the previous ten years. The club prioritising and the manager resting players for certain games has been happening since maybe GH arrived. Even before with Souness when he played players like Fowler in cup games.

      Surely it can't be a new realisation that our manager will rest players accordingly but still putting out a team he believes can still win and they will still try their damnedest in each game.

      It seems ( if im wrong please say so ) that there is a belief that if the strongest team isn't picked that is the manager not trying his best to win - I think that's wrong personally - the manager will always try his best utilising the squad he has.
      reddebs
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      Re: If a player doesn't “Give 100%”...
      Reply #76: Nov 28, 2012 11:41:22 am
      You touch on a fair enough point 'debs. I was at last Thursdays game and didn't know what to expect - after all we did field our strongest team, (as you point out), against Anzhi and a win meant we could 'rest easy'. So the team selection was a tad disappointing (as too was the result btw).

      Maybe the time has come for me to accept this may happen more often and I'll have to take a lead from the club and "prioritise" or be more selective about the games I attend... giving any and all cup games a bye.

      Sad really but with money so tight (as it is for most fans, I guess) I'd rather spend it watching a full strength team trying their damnedest than paying my money and taking my chances with a cup game... ah well.   :-\


      But therein lies another issue mate, sometimes the full strength team/experienced players don't try their damndest whereas sometimes the inexperienced ones do. 
      bad boy bubby
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      • @KaiserQueef
      Re: If a player doesn't “Give 100%”...
      Reply #77: Nov 28, 2012 11:43:00 am
      But therein lies another issue mate, sometimes the full strength team/experienced players don't try their damndest whereas sometimes the inexperienced ones do. 

      Indeed 'debs and for another thread maybe?

      Just a reminder of the O.P.... before the "Just George" show resumes:

      I want to make a few things clear before I expand the discussion:

      * This is not about Brendan – we have been “prioritising”  games for a number of years now and under different managers...

      Ask yourself this too: what has happened to make it more acceptable, to you, that we “prioritise” by saving ourselves for the league? After all ”prioritising” hasn't exactly worked.


      George Lucas
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      • JFT96
      Re: If a player doesn't “Give 100%”...
      Reply #78: Nov 28, 2012 11:46:43 am
      Indeed 'debs and for another thread maybe?

      Just a reminder of the O.P.... before the "Just George" show resumes:



      Thank you for pointing out my error

      Do continue with your sly digs towards me.

      Diego LFC
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      Re: If a player doesn't “Give 100%”...
      Reply #79: Nov 28, 2012 12:52:06 pm
      Thanks Luke. I was (coincidently) getting on to a reply to Diego's post when I read this.

      Now that is a reply... nice one. Before I go any further I just want to say; I hope I'm not putting words into your mouth (tell me if I am) - I just want to be clear what you are 'saying'.

      Have I picked it up right that there are, amongst others, two major factors as to why a club might not field it's strongest team? I.E.; 1: without "financial backing" the quality of a squad, by nature, isn't up to the job of competing (at the highest level) in all competitions and... 2: If a small club (Auxerre and Villarreal, for example) don't want to "over-stretch" it's better, long-term, for them to "prioritise". See that I get.

      Would I be right in thinking that, (for the time being anyhow), for us Liverpool fans to grasp the concept of 'not fielding our best possible team' we (or me anyhow  ;D) need a change of mind-set?

      Should I now be thinking; "We aren't a big club right now and we won't be until we have the finance in place (to field a quality, in depth, team in all competitions)"? Wow that is going to be hard.  :-\

      I appreciate your reply mate; it's definitely given me some food for thought.  :nod:


      To be honest, mate, I think that's the case. Yeah it's a harsh reality but it's also the nature of the game these days, money speaks more and more every day.

      It's not to say we can't be competitive though, nor that "we aren't a big club". I surely don't think a team needs to spend as much as Man City to be successful. But without similar resources, we'll have to spend our money more wisely than our competitors. I'm not expecting us to only win a title again with a sugar daddy type of owner, if FSG themselves are willing to give more financial backing to the manager, I'll be optimistic about the future.

      After all, Liverpool FC do have a big payroll (not so big now we got rid of so many players, but we don't have the data about this season so I'm talking about recent past), among the Top 4 or at least Top 5. There's a strong historical correlation between wages and league finish, so in the last few seasons we have been underachievers in this aspect.

      Underachieving isn't nice but if we're willing to look at it positively, we can see it as a promising sign - the fact we do have the financial power to be near the top, just need to start spending it better.

      That is, of course, if the owners are going to re-invest the money they've saved recently instead of cost cutting for its own sake - I'm still sitting on a fence about them so I'll wait and see.

      By the way, my post about "anachronism" (is this word the right one in English?) was more specifically directed to the part of the debate trying to compare players of today with players of decades ago. I love football history and I think I know a little bit about it myself but I think too many people live in the past - complain about today's state of the game without thinking about what made it change.

      Yes, in the past players were able to play more games with even greater frequency, but we also had alcoholics among the best players in the world. One of the genius of the Brazilian team of the WC 1970 used to smoke a cigarette before each game. That is simply not going to happen in today's game.

      Yes, players used to be a lot more loyal to their clubs, but that was also largely due to the fact there were little more to gain moving clubs. Sir Tom Finney played his whole career for Preston North End, surely because he loved the club, but also because he was already paid the maximum wage allowed at the time at Preston, so moving to, say, Arsenal, would make no difference to his life standards at all. In today's game, a player that has the opportunity to improve his and his family's life standards massively will take it irrespective of the love he might have for his club.

      I could go on, I think you'll get what I'm saying about "anachronism" here!
      bad boy bubby
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      • @KaiserQueef
      Re: If a player doesn't “Give 100%”...
      Reply #80: Nov 28, 2012 01:41:45 pm
      By the way, my post about "anachronism" (is this word the right one in English?) was more specifically directed to the part of the debate trying to compare players of today with players of decades ago.

      Not quite the right word (in context) but I understood what you meant; both regarding the word and the part of the debate to which you were referencing.  8)


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