If a player doesn't “Give 100%”...

We fans, to a man and woman, round on him for “not trying his best”. Yet we accept it when the boss picks an understrength team in cup competitions. Why?

After all; isn't fielding a weakened team just institutionalised “not trying”?

I want to make a few things clear before I expand the discussion:

* This is not about Brendan – we have been “prioritising”  games for a number of years now and under different managers.

* This is not about FSG – again we've been doing the same thing, under different owners, for at least eight seasons and...

* It's not a knee-jerk topic – for those very reasons.

* I'm not looking for rows, spamming or people getting defensive – just reasoned debate and maybe a bit of soul-searching.

So why do 'we' tolerate “not trying our best” as a club? Why do we appear to be so inconsistent? Think about it another way; should a player, any player , decide “You know what, it's only Northampton in the cup, I can't be arsed giving 100%; I'll save that for Sunday's league game against Newcastle.”... we'd go to F***ing town on him. Rightly so?

Ask yourself this too: what has happened to make it more acceptable, to you, that we “prioritise” by saving ourselves for the league? After all ”prioritising” hasn't exactly worked.

Not too sure whether it is acceptable mate.

Take Carroll last year. The minimum requirement is 100% for me and a lot of others and for most of last season Carroll wasn't giving that and some fans let him know it. As soon as he started putting it in the crowd was right behind him and the appreciation was evident and his form improved.

Unfortunately, the games where he gave 100% were scarce and he has now gone (for now at least). Expect Downing to be next out of the door which for me is the correct decision on the basis of effort put in.

100% effort normally gets you your just desserts whilst anything less on a regular basis should see you out of the door.

One of the reasons I adored and loved Dirk Kuyt.

This was one characteristic of his you could never fault. It's difficult to put a finger on it as I beleive there is a plethora of elements that come into play, in saying that though it shouldn't happen at a club like ours even more so players whose role's demand responsibillity and leadership.

At 0-0 on Sunday in the 93rd minute we had a corner Stevie was hunched at the edge of the 18 and nobody looked like they wanted to show any urgency in taking the corner, in the end Suarez had to collect the ball from behind the goals set it up and take the thing himself to no effect.

Clubs can no longer compete on 4 fronts in the game

The amount of games a player plays throughout the season could be close to nearly 70 games if picked for internationals, thats a stupid amount and no player can play in every single game without dropping his performance or being suspectable to an injury.

Because of the demands of modern football the competitions are priortised by each club dependant on their own situation.

Normally its League , then European Comp, then FA Cup then League Cup.

Clubs will manipulate their squad to ensure they are still competing in the league in April May ( either trying to win the title, CL spot, Europe Spot or avoiding relegation ). To do that they need to ensure that players stay as fresh as possible throughout the season - so in certain comps the important or essential players will get a rest.

Also the league Cup especially is a perfect opportunity for managers to give potential youngsters a go to see how they do in a higher level.

The manager will always play a team he thinks will win the game - they will never not put out a team and have given up already.

Its a squad game - we learnt that under Rafa and his rotating throughout the season to ensure the team is strong still at the end.

I would hope that every player we pick gives 100% effort - if they dont then i expect them to be out the door quickly.

Unless we have a squad the size and quality of City then i think its only right that we manage the squad carefully to ensure we get the best out of it.

Not too sure whether it is acceptable mate.

It seems to be wahs. We don't accept a player not giving 100% but readily make excuses for not putting out our best team; which is, in effect, not giving 100%. All I'm asking is why we accept one but not the other?

Like I said in my O.P.: I'm not looking for the reasons behind fielding a weakened team (I fully understand the concept behind "prioritising") - I'm asking why we, as fans have a different level of tolerance for what is essentially the same thing?

Like I said in my O.P.: I'm not looking for the reasons behind fielding a weakened team (I fully understand the concept behind "prioritising") - I'm asking why we, as fans have a different level of tolerance for what is essentially the same thing?

In effect the idea of games being prioritised by the manager can be directly compared to the importance or not that the supporters regard the ultimate trophy.
Would a supporter be more keyed up for a European cup draw or League cup game against inferior opposition and would the manager be economical with the quality?

In guessing the reason Why we tolerate playing a "weakened" ( don't like that word ) is because we as fans understand the reasoning behind it - we see that we have to at times prioritise and rest players.

I don't think IMO the two things can be compared as they two totally different situations - one is something happening to benefit the club - the other someone making a personal choice and possibly being a lazy tw*t.

It seems to be wahs. We don't accept a player not giving 100% but readily make excuses for not putting out our best team; which is, in effect, not giving 100%. All I'm asking is why we accept one but not the other?

Like I said in my O.P.: I'm not looking for the reasons behind fielding a weakened team (I fully understand the concept behind "prioritising") - I'm asking why we, as fans have a different level of tolerance for what is essentially the same thing?

We shouldn't accept either. What we should remember, is the next game is the most important one.

I treat all competitive games seriously, be they games at Chester or games at home to Chelsea. And if I was there and shelling out €50 a ticket, I would demand the coach takes it seriously too.

Our players are paid to play games in all competitions for us. Prioritising games and competitions has repeatedly failed at this club in the past 10 years, and a waste of time for everyone. Anyone who gives their all in every game has 4 times the chance of silverware, than putting all the eggs in one basket and failing in that too.

We shouldn't accept either. What we should remember, is the next game is the most important one.

I treat all competitive games seriously, be they games at Chester or games at home to Chelsea. And if I was there and shelling out €50 a ticket, I would demand the coach takes it seriously too.

Our players are paid to play games in all competitions for us. Prioritising games and competitions has repeatedly failed at this club in the past 10 years, and a waste of time for everyone. Anyone who gives their all in every game has 4 times the chance of silverware, than putting all the eggs in one basket and failing in that too.

2 instances for you that show the good points about prioritising and 1 that shows the problem of playing all your top players in every game

1. 2004/5 Season - Rafa could see that we were struggling in the league but had a chance in the CL - for games before CL games Rafa rested the top players ( Xabi, Sami, Carra and Gerrard ) - that allowed us to tackle the CL with a team full of fit ready players. It worked and we won the CL. That happened because Rafa prioritised the CL

2. 2005/6 - FA Cup season - once again Rafa saw that we could win the league and got knocked out of the CL early so he prioritised the FA Cup and put out strong teams in the FA Cup whilst resting them for the league - result - we won the FA Cup. He also prioritised the 07 CL and we got to the final and just fell short

3. Arsenal 3 seasons ago - Henry and Co had left so they had a small young team. Wenger decided to pretty much stick to the same 15 players in each CL game and League game throughout the early part of the season - they were riding high in the league and comfortably through in the CL by playing their strongest team 2 times a week - Feb/March happened and they started to fade away and suffer burnt out and injuries and in the end they got knocked out of the CL and fell to 3rd in the prem. Wenger himself admitted he should have rested players earlier in the season.

I think ye are thinking way too much about it lads. Its obvious, has been for nearly ten years. Top players in a team get rested more often these days. End of.

2 instances for you that show the good points about prioritising and 1 that shows the problem of playing all your top players in every game

Arsenal go out of the CL every year, while their rest on tap policy has won them nothing at all since 2005.

As for your 2 instances, Rafa's gamble ultimately failed in 2007 as nothing was won, and I can find many more instances where the gamble failed from GH all the way to BR. But if you still believe it is the right thing to do, there'll be plenty more disappointments you'll have to accept along the way.

Arsenal go out of the CL every year, while their rest on tap policy has won them nothing at all since 2005.

As for your 2 instances, Rafa's gamble ultimately failed in 2007 as nothing was won, and I can find many more instances where the gamble failed from GH all the way to BR. But if you still believe it is the right thing to do, there'll be plenty more disappointments you'll have to accept along the way.

Ok - every single team rests player throughout the season

Utd have had both RvP and Rooney on the bench this season

City have had Silva , Aguero , Tevez etc on the bench

Even Barce has Messi on the bench for a cup game !!

Arsenal tried to play their strongest team in every single game and it didn't work because they faded away because their players were physically exhausted

We wouldn't have won both the CL or FA cup if we hasn't rested players

Every successful team has rested players throughout the season - that is an undeniable fact

You need to rest players throughout the season. That's the right thing to do for your club

We would all love to see the best players in every game but its not practical or realistic

Unless you can point me to a team that played its strongest team in every match ?

One of the reasons I adored and loved Dirk Kuyt.
This was one characteristic of his you could never fault.

Kuyt was the performance benchmark. 1001%

(Normally) Stevie is another.

Sammy Lee used to run himself into the ground.

Fielding an under-strength team does not mean the manager is picking a side he thinks is going to loose. No manager in the world would do that. He's picking the weakest side he thinks is still capable of winning the game. Due to the demands of the number of games played in the modern world, including international friendlies and disjointed international competitions, a manager has to prioritise what he feels brings the most value to his club by resting players to avoid over taxing his players otherwise he risks over stretching his squad and loosing everything.

Besides, are we fans any different? If the manager puts an under-strength team out and wins 1-0, do fans cry out in their dismay that we could have won 5-0 if he'd put his full strength team out? No, we're satisfied with the win and think no more about it. It's only when a manager fields an under-strength team and looses that we then get on our high horses and condemn him for doing so. The double standards are with our attitudes, not with the practice of resting players.

they still earn far too F***ing much, more than what most fans earn in a year for me to start crying about how tired they might be.

Not like they are working 9-5 is it?

I think I understand your point BBB, and it is interesting. A player looking after himself and not making gut busting runs for 90 mins so he can peak later in the season and avoid strains, pulls etc. is completely unacceptable. But a manager resting key players for certain games, reducing our chances of winning for the same reasons is perfectly ok?

**For the record I'm not condoning or condemning either action, just making sure I understand.**

I think the perception is one is seen as selfish the other is seen as cunning. Personally I think with the amount of data and feedback on players fitness that is now available that in terms of the player looking out for their fitness and interests there needs to be better use of substitutions. For example if Lucas were to start against Spurs on Wednesday and BR left him on for the full 90 mins, when he was exhausted and struggling in the latter stages could we percieve that as not giving 100%?

The point I am trying to make is that to avoid a player coming across as not giving 100% we should use the data and information we have available to see if they are capable of playing at the tempo we want and need for 90 mins. If not then sub them before energy levels run out, or use them as the impact sub. The example I'll use here is Gerrard. If he was subbed more, not due to performances but due to fitness, I think we'd have less questions about his commitment and arguably better performances. Even starting Shelvey and using Gerrard as the impact sub could be more beneficial than him playing 90 mins every week when I personally don't think he has that level of performance in him any more.

If we were to use our squad and subs like this then you could argue that key players could be available for more games, even if it is as a sub, surely it increase our chances while at the same time allowing us to use youth and develop players.

As George said Arsenal's attempt at playing their strongest team as much as possible backfired, and with our squad as slim as it is no doubt we would suffer the same faith. So if BR decides to rest players as he will, I think we see it as more acceptable as it's for the greater good of the squad. Getting knocked out of the League Cup was disappointing, just like failing to get European football was disappointing 2 seasons ago. However we can argue that by missing out on Europe allowed us a strong start last season, a sort of blessing in disguise, it was never intentional but there are benefits. And as has been said, fans and managers alike prioritise, if risking a cup game (with a team that still has the ability to win) means giving us a stronger chance in a more difficult league game then I think we will go along with that.

Very good topic Bad Boy and I'll try to answer from my/our (LFC) point of view.

For many, many years we had the strongest team in the country capable of beating anyone and everyone.  We were winning everything on a regular basis and losing wasn't part of the Liverpool vocabulary or mentality.

I can rarely remember panicking if someone was injured long term because whoever came in understood it might be their one and only opportunity to prove they were good enough.  They had been drilled in the style of play by playing regularly in the reserves, sometimes for more than a season.  They knew what was expected and what they had to do.

When the game changed and by that I mean things like the European competitions becoming group games rather than knockouts and going from 1 substitution to 3 suddenly it was necessary to have more players.  Every single away game now we have 20+ players travelling.

Our problem has been that the difference in quality between our first 11 and the squad players has been bigger than our rivals so when we don't play our strongest 11 we are much "weaker" than they are. 

It's not acceptable that we don't have the quality throughout the squad to compete with our rivals but it's also unacceptable that when a player does get their chance they can't be arsed. 

I don't care if that player is a club legend, world class or a kid making his debut, they should work their socks off for the benefit of the team.  Until Brendan get's that mentality into the players we are on a hiding to nothing.

I cant remember who said it but he said something along the lines of how do you frighten or scare someone into playing better when they are in their mid twenties and multi millionaires.
We do seem to have our fare share of players who having signed for Liverpool breath a sigh of relief and think" I have made it" and thats the last we see of them.Joe Cole is one player in mind.

Every successful team has rested players throughout the season - that is an undeniable fact

Good for them. Those teams have world class players throughout their side. We have two, and simply can't function without them. That is also an undeniable fact.

You need to rest players throughout the season. That's the right thing to do for your club

One single trophy won and 3 coaches sacked in 6 years prove it isn't right for LFC.

And saying "well everyone else does it", is no cop out. If everyone in the world takes drugs, that doesn't mean you should. 

We would all love to see the best players in every game but its not practical

It is practical. If we fielded a proper team in Europe, we'd be through by now. Because we didn't, we have to next week, or it's another cup gone.

If players think that 3 hours of sport a week is tiring, maybe they should go and clear drains in the rain or something, to experience what serious tiredness and exhaustion is. Football is a physical, committed sport. Let us get on with our job and leave data analysis and pie charts to Opta boffins.

Good for them. Those teams have world class players throughout their side. We have two, and simply can't function without them. That is also an undeniable fact.

One single trophy won and 3 coaches sacked in 6 years prove it isn't right for LFC.

And saying "well everyone else does it", is no cop out. If everyone in the world takes drugs, that doesn't mean you should. 

It is practical. If we fielded a proper team in Europe, we'd be through by now. Because we didn't, we have to next week, or it's another cup gone.

If players think that 3 hours of sport a week is tiring, maybe they should go and clear drains in the rain or something, to experience what serious tiredness and exhaustion is. Football is a physical, committed sport. Let us get on with our job and leave data analysis and pie charts to Opta boffins.

The simple fact is you fail to see the reality of modern football

I can say with a lot of confidence if we played Suarez in every game he would be physically shattered by March ! Then he would be suspect to injuries

And when he did miss games through injuries because he wasn't 100% people like you would complain that we played him in every game


The facts are quite simple.

Us not doing well isn't down to players being rested throughout the season

Good for them. Those teams have world class players throughout their side. We have two, and simply can't function without them. That is also an undeniable fact.

One single trophy won and 3 coaches sacked in 6 years prove it isn't right for LFC.

And saying "well everyone else does it", is no cop out. If everyone in the world takes drugs, that doesn't mean you should. 

It is practical. If we fielded a proper team in Europe, we'd be through by now. Because we didn't, we have to next week, or it's another cup gone.

If players think that 3 hours of sport a week is tiring, maybe they should go and clear drains in the rain or something, to experience what serious tiredness and exhaustion is. Football is a physical, committed sport. Let us get on with our job and leave data analysis and pie charts to Opta boffins.

Don't really know where I start with this one..

So I'm just not gonna bother!

But may I add if cleaning out drains is causing extreme tiredness might be a good shout to play football a couple of times a week improve the fitness

I can say with a lot of confidence if we played Suarez in every game he would be physically shattered by March ! Then he would be suspect to injuries

And when he did miss games through injuries because he wasn't 100% people like you would complain that we played him in every game

As it turns out, I wouldn't. I didn't complain when Lucas got injured in the League Cup last year, and I don't complain about what competition injuries occur, as I realise the timing of them is completely random.

Suarez is suspect to injuries now, let alone March. We still need him on the pitch though. But if he's "shattered" in March, such is life. Shattered or not, his season still ends in May.

As it turns out, I wouldn't. I didn't complain when Lucas got injured in the League Cup last year, and I don't complain about what competition injuries occur, as I realise the timing of them is completely random.

Suarez is suspect to injuries now, let alone March. We still need him on the pitch though. But if he's "shattered" in March, such is life. Shattered or not, his season still ends in May.

Such is life ?!?

Thank god you're not a football manager

You need a big dose of reality.