Good enough?

I wasn't really meaning it like that mate.

I was thinking more along the lines of the fact we shouldn't be assuming a team like Villa will let us walk over them. The fact we can't be lazy.

In terms of ability we should walk all over them, but we sometimes lose against teams who we should beat because they work that 10% harder. I was thinking like that mate.

Agree we shouldnt just think we will walk over them but our players are good enough to beat most of the teams in this league so it's the managers job to send them out with the correct mentality and tactics to win a game.

If the boss keeps talking about long term projects and our 'group' not being good enough then it gives players the wrong impression and an excuse to put in performances like we've seen recently.

Agree we shouldnt just think we will walk over them but our players are good enough to beat most of the teams in this league so it's the managers job to send them out with the correct mentality and tactics to win a game.

If the boss keeps talking about long term projects and our 'group' not being good enough then it gives players the wrong impression and an excuse to put in performances like we've seen recently.

Players should never hear the manager belittles his own players. The best experienced managers never do that, not even after a terrible performance. I think Rogers is doing that to show the owners that he needs money to build his team.

But being honest, the players aren't good enough for the expectations we demand every season. I think Rogers should be doing more with the squad he has, and i feel he has made a few mistakes so far. It is also up to the players to perform too, and to work hard on the pitch. Managers can only do so much, when the player crosses the white line it is up to them.

I think teams are figuring us out a little though. They know how we attack, nullify Suarez and we lose our main threat, and quickly counter through the wide areas where we leave big gabs when the full backs push forwards.

Lumped the whole lot into the following categories  :-

Average (1-Point)(Total  :  9 players)(Total Points  :  9)

Reina/Carrager/Lucas/Allen/Shelvey/Henderson/Downing/Suso/Cole


Good (2-points)(Total  :  7 players) (Total Points :  14)

Johnson/Wisdom/Agger/Skrtel/Coates/Sahin/Assaidi


Great (3-points)(Total  :  3 - players)(Total Points  :  9)

Enrique/Gerrard/Sterling/

Brilliant (4-points)(Total  :  1 player)(Total Points  : 4)

Suarez

If we total up the points we have :-

Average  :  9
Good  :  14
Great  :  9
Brilliant  :  4
____________________
Grand Total Points  : 36
____________________

Total Max Points  :    20 players x 4 points  = 80 points

% of Total  :  36/80  = 45 %

Say 50% as a benchmark for an average team, we are just about there.

I think most of us have ranked the players quite consistently, only a few movement of players from lower to upper category and vice-versa.

I am resgined to the fact that whilst FSG are here we have to get used to this. They are just not football people neither fans of the game nor experts on it.they continue to make catestrophic cockup appointments and drag the club backwards.
Don't see anyone else with money to come here so its very much a case of what we have now is what we will have next season too.
The team cannot perform whilst there is so much unrest within the club sacking Kenny was another bomb under the foundations ..thanks for that FSG.

We should be thinking we are going to trash the likes of Villa.

They are sh*te and their results over the last week or so have proven that.

Players definitely shouldnt take wins for granted but I'd like to think they are going out thinking they are better than the likes of Villa.

Since Villa trounced us they've conceded 15 goals in three games.

Sobering thought.

I think people are being harsh on Lucas and Borini. Lucas was injured for 6 months last season, he comes back, gets a little fitness but not any match fitness. Then gets another 3 month injury. Really not fair to judge his performances. Borini was a new signing who has started poorly, but got injured so again I think it is unfair to make a judgement.

It isn't about being fair, it's about judging their performances this season. It does seem unfair, but they are only being judged because a) they've played, and b) they may feature in the future. What it is meant to do, is take a sobering look at the personnel we have at our disposal.

So basically, if they play, they get assessed

And I'm reminded of a few school reports I had with the statement 'Can do better' at the bottom of them.

Since Villa trounced us they've conceded 15 goals in three games.

Sobering thought.

Exactly.

They are sh*te and we shouldn't be losing games like those.

To try to give this some balance rather than ask good enough and rate the players in subjective words I decided to take all 4 squads, ours, Spuds, Bitters and the Arse and compare each player like for like discounting any injury or suspension. This should illustrate strength of squad, I did the same for what would be considered first XI a score of 1 for being the best in that position up to 4 to the worst out of the 4 squads.

                                Liverpool                            Arsenal                                 Tottenham                              Everton

Goalkeepers             Reina     (2)                         Szczesny     (4)                     Lloris         (1)                         Howard      (3)
                                Jones    (3)                          Fabianski     (2)                    Friedel       (1)                         Mucha        (4)
                                Doni      (2)                          Mannone      (3)                   Gomes       (1)                                           (4)
                         
Central Defenders    Agger     (1)                         Koscielny      (4)                   Dawson      (3)                        Jagielka     (2)
                                Skrtel     (2)                         Mertesacker  (4)                  Vertonghen(1)                         Distin        (3)
                                Coates   (4)                         Vermaelen    (1)                   Gallas        (3)                         Heitinga    (2)
                                Carragher(2)                       Djourou         (4)                  Caulker      (1)                         Duffy         (3)

Full Backs                 Johnson  (1)                        Sagna           (3)                   Walker         (4)                       Baines      (2)
                                Enrique   (1)                        Gibbs            (3)                   Essou-Ekotto(4)                       Hibbert     (2)
                                Kelly        (1)                        Jenkinson     (3)                   Naughton      (4)                      Coleman   (2)
                                Wisdom   (2)                        Santos         (3)                                         (4)                      Neville      (1)

Midfielders*             Gerrard    (4)                        Carzola        (3)                   Bale               (1)                     Fellaini       (2)
                                Lucas       (1)                        Arteta          (3)                   Parker           (2)                      Mirallas      (4)
                                Allen         (3)                       Wilshire        (2)                   Dembele        (1)                     Pienaar      (4)
                                Sahin        (4)                       Podolski       (1)                   Lennon         (2)                      Gibson       (3)
                                Sterling     (1)                       Ramsey        (2)                   Sigurdsson   (3)                      Hitzlesperger (4)
                                Downing   (4)                       OxladeC       (2)                   Sandro          (1)                     Osman       (3)

Strikers                    Suarez      (1)                       Giroud          (4)                   Defoe            (2)                     Jelavic        (4)
                                Carroll       (3)                       Walcott        (1)                   Adebayor      (2)                      Anichebe   (4)
                                Borini        (3)                        Chamakh     (4)                   Dempsey       (1)                     Naismith    (2)

*To give balance some wide players were needed to be included in with the midfielders

Totals for Squads:

                              Goalkeepers         Central Defenders       Full backs      Midfielders         Strikers        Squad Total

Liverpool                         7                               9                          5                    17                    7                     45

Arsenal                            9                              13                        12                   13                    9                    56

Tottenham                       3                               8                         16                   10                    5                    42

Everton                           11                             10                        7                     20                   10                   58

Based upon that our squad strength is only slightly behind Tottenham's and both us and Spurs are well in front of Arsenal and Everton.

Using the same numbers but applying it only to First XI you would get something close to:-

                              Goalkeeper         Central Defenders       Full backs      Midfielders         Strikers        First XI Total
                               
Liverpool                      2                             3                             2                    12                    4                     23

Arsenal                        4                              8                             6                     9                     5                     32
 
Tottenham                   1                             4                              8                     6                     4                     23

Everton                        3                             5                              4                    13                    8                     33

Using a 1-4-4-2 formation with squeezing Gerrard into a wide attacking area as our 4-3-3 seems to fit the most fair way and basically took the top players in each position that I personally judged it. It would seem that our first XI when matched in strength comes out level with Tottenham;s and ahead of Everton and Arsenal. Now granted I may be biased but I've tried to be as fair as I could with this to demonstrate it as fairly as I could.

Excellent bit of work mate.

To try to give this some balance rather than ask good enough and rate the players in subjective words I decided to take all 4 squads, ours, Spuds, Bitters and the Arse and compare each player like for like discounting any injury or suspension. This should illustrate strength of squad, I did the same for what would be considered first XI a score of 1 for being the best in that position up to 4 to the worst out of the 4 squads.

                                Liverpool                            Arsenal                                 Tottenham                              Everton

Goalkeepers             Reina     (2)                         Szczesny     (4)                     Lloris         (1)                         Howard      (3)
                                Jones    (3)                          Fabianski     (2)                    Friedel       (1)                         Mucha        (4)
                                Doni      (2)                          Mannone      (3)                   Gomes       (1)                                           (4)
                         
Central Defenders    Agger     (1)                         Koscielny      (4)                   Dawson      (3)                        Jagielka     (2)
                                Skrtel     (2)                         Mertesacker  (4)                  Vertonghen(1)                         Distin        (3)
                                Coates   (4)                         Vermaelen    (1)                   Gallas        (3)                         Heitinga    (2)
                                Carragher(2)                       Djourou         (4)                  Caulker      (1)                         Duffy         (3)

Full Backs                 Johnson  (1)                        Sagna           (3)                   Walker         (4)                       Baines      (2)
                                Enrique   (1)                        Gibbs            (3)                   Essou-Ekotto(4)                       Hibbert     (2)
                                Kelly        (1)                        Jenkinson     (3)                   Naughton      (4)                      Coleman   (2)
                                Wisdom   (2)                        Santos         (3)                                         (4)                      Neville      (1)

Midfielders*             Gerrard    (4)                        Carzola        (3)                   Bale               (1)                     Fellaini       (2)
                                Lucas       (1)                        Arteta          (3)                   Parker           (2)                      Mirallas      (4)
                                Allen         (3)                       Wilshire        (2)                   Dembele        (1)                     Pienaar      (4)
                                Sahin        (4)                       Podolski       (1)                   Lennon         (2)                      Gibson       (3)
                                Sterling     (1)                       Ramsey        (2)                   Sigurdsson   (3)                      Hitzlesperger (4)
                                Downing   (4)                       OxladeC       (2)                   Sandro          (1)                     Osman       (3)

Strikers                    Suarez      (1)                       Giroud          (4)                   Defoe            (2)                     Jelavic        (4)
                                Carroll       (3)                       Walcott        (1)                   Adebayor      (2)                      Anichebe   (4)
                                Borini        (3)                        Chamakh     (4)                   Dempsey       (1)                     Naismith    (2)

*To give balance some wide players were needed to be included in with the midfielders

Totals for Squads:

                              Goalkeepers         Central Defenders       Full backs      Midfielders         Strikers        Squad Total

Liverpool                         7                               9                          5                    17                    7                     45

Arsenal                            9                              13                        12                   13                    9                    56

Tottenham                       3                               8                         16                   10                    5                    42

Everton                           11                             10                        7                     20                   10                   58

Based upon that our squad strength is only slightly behind Tottenham's and both us and Spurs are well in front of Arsenal and Everton.

Using the same numbers but applying it only to First XI you would get something close to:-

                              Goalkeeper         Central Defenders       Full backs      Midfielders         Strikers        First XI Total
                               
Liverpool                      2                             3                             2                    12                    4                     23

Arsenal                        4                              8                             6                     9                     5                     32
 
Tottenham                   1                             4                              8                     6                     4                     23

Everton                        3                             5                              4                    13                    8                     33

Using a 1-4-4-2 formation with squeezing Gerrard into a wide attacking area as our 4-3-3 seems to fit the most fair way and basically took the top players in each position that I personally judged it. It would seem that our first XI when matched in strength comes out level with Tottenham;s and ahead of Everton and Arsenal. Now granted I may be biased but I've tried to be as fair as I could with this to demonstrate it as fairly as I could.

First off awesome job. That looks like it took forever to type!

I think you're being a bit too generous for some and a bit too harsh for others.

Tim Howard has performed to a higher level than Pepe has for at least 2 seasons now, and I wouldn't consider Szczesny a scrub either, but in comparison he might be fourth like you have him. I would agree Spurs' keepers are all deserving of 1s.

I don't think Skrtel is THAT much better than Mertesacker. That's one I find a bit harsh. They'd both be pushes at 3 for me. And Carragher at 2? I don't think so. I think Arsenal consider their best CB pairing to be Vermaelen/Mertesacker, so Carra would be lined up vs Koscielny. That would change all the ratings for third choice CB.

I think the fulbacks are a bit mixed up? Shouldn't Baines be vs Enrique instead of Johnson? Glen's defo the best RB of the group, but Baines is easily the best LB. IMO Baines, BAE, Enrique, Gibbs in that order for LBs, as I fell BAE is a bit underrated by some.

Midfielders like you say are a bit tough to rate, but I'd swap Cazorla and Fellaini. I'm not sure how the pairings were lined up, because you have Sterling vs Ramsey and Ramsey is more of a central guy while, unless you put them from a depth chart type of position.

As for forwards, I wouldn't include Carroll at all given that he's on loan and is likely not coming back. So we really only have Suarez and Borini.

----


Maybe a better comparison is to look at the the starting XIs and typical benches for us, Spurs, and Arsenal? We all basically play something between a 4-3-3 and a 4-2-3-1 so there should be some fairly direct comparisons.

Cheers, it was a close call on Howard and Pepe for me and can certainly understand you arguing it that way, at the end of the day that's a 1 point swing to Everton and is easiest to correct and in truth doesn't change too much.

Skrtel has made a couple of errors this season but I'd definitely rather have him than the beanpole, that again is personal preference and in some cases I tried to undersell our guys, in others I am bound to have been influenced by bias no matter how fair I tried to be, that's just human nature. If you think Mertesacker is better than Skrtel, again I'm not going to try and change your opinion. There's a reason that Skrtel has won so many awards for us though and I think he often gets a bad review that's not justified.

With the fullbacks I didn't place them in place of left or right back, simply by who would be considered the better player at the time. As for BAE, he divides opinion a lot, I find him a liability for them but some rave about him so it was a tough call on Spurs full backs to be honest.

Midfielders was a nightmare, was thinking of splitting wingers out, that just caused more problems than it solved due to differing formations, fullbacks who have been playing on the wing etc. It was easier to just list the better players from each squad as a 6. As for the difference in Fellaini and Carzola, again only shifts 1 point which wouldn't make much of an impact at all when you look at the end figures.

Forwards I think it's a bit harsh not to include Carroll for us, he is essentially still our player and would be our number 2, can understand where you're coming from though but without him again would only add 1 point to our score. So even with all these differences the change would essentially be a 3 point swing either way on squads, if you added 3 points to our total let's say and take 3 off all the others would just push Tottenham ahead more and the other 2 teams would still be behind both of us.

The point of the exercise wasn't really to get an exact point, it was more to demonstrate that arguing we don't have a squad to compete for top 6 (this illustrates we should be top 5 to be honest) is futile, we easily have the quality of player to compete in the top 6 and I was getting a bit tired of hearing excuses based upon purely the quality of player we had in the squad.

Exactly.

They are sh*te and we shouldn't be losing games like those.

In a normal season, you'd say it was just one of those freak results like Blackpool beating us under Kenny or Burnley beating United a few years back or that sort of thing.

But this season, it's becoming more frequent which is what makes it more worrying.

This is where i dont get the whole we are massivly short on players argument..

Today we managed to rotate Lucas and Shelvey with Henderson and Allen in midfield, we also have Sahin in there, so thats

Gerrard
Lucas
Shelvey
Henderson
Allen
Sahin

For three midfield slots, now we could argue that we could upgrade 1 or 2 in an ideal world but they are 6 good midfielders to have at your disposal..
I thought Henderson was good today, as was Allen and Gerrard.. So no worries in rotation there? Not short in numbers there?

At the back we have

Johnson
Kelly
Wisdom
Flanagan

Who can play RB

Enrique
Robinson
Johnson

Who can play LB

Agger
Skrtel

As starters as Cb with Carra and Coates the back up/rotation..
Again we can look to upgrade one or two but in terms of depth? Numbers?

Wide up front

Sterling and Downing started today, we have
Borini
Cole
Suso
Assaidi
Pacheco

As rotation, again a couple not really at standard? But as options? Its not that light.. Yes we need to improve that position but if we are talking thin... Cant be blamed as the squad has no depth? Thats not right for me.

That squad and those options are better than where they are for me, we should be top 6 with that squad at least and with 2-3 immediate signings challenging top 4..

There is depth there... Its just excuses to suggest its not.. Its not a championship winnning squad, but its not far off top 4..

Players, well humans will take an excuse if they are offered one, and constantly hearing they are within a thin squad it subconciously gives them a way out.. I expect better for Liverpool, i cant take that the above squad is that light in numbers and quality that we are doing well to be where we are

We have options mate, that you've proven but there's still plenty of weak areas and that's why we are where we are.

Out wide, only Sterling offers me any excitement and he's still raw. In the middle, only Gerrard excites me and he's past his best.

I think our biggest problem is we have a lot of good squad players who can come in for a few games and impress but over the course of a season aren't up to the task. Unfortunately though, these players are playing week in week out. (cue somebody to mention me wanting Spearing back) And that's been our problem for some time, having squad players playing every week.

The middle of the park is the obvious example. We've got 6 players there, none of whom (at this moment in time) are anywhere near the quality I'd expect of a Liverpool central midfield. Stevie, in his prime, was easily the best in the League but now is a shadow of that player. Lucas has been good in the past couple of seasons but since returning from his injury this year has been poor. Allen, Henderson and Shelvey are ok players and I don't expect any to trouble Liverpool's greatest. As for Sahin, I don't rate him at all in what I've seen of him.

On the wings we have similar problems. Good squad players playing every week (or in some cases even poor squad players).

And that's why I think we're playing at a mid-table level because out starting XI is full of mid-table players who'd make for a good squad if there was a bit more quality in the starting XI.

We'll have to agree to disagree mate, Mid table is harsh, i think as i said its a long way off winning the league and 2-3 quality additions from top 4 challenging..

But

Reina
Johnson
Enrique
Agger
Skrtel
Lucas
Gerrard
Allen
Suarez
Sterling
Downing

Isnt a mid table side for me.. Im not getting carried away that they are anywhere near our best, but in terms of this league right now? They arent mid table for me.

We havent had many injuries this season either, in the grand sceme of things, Agger, Suarez, Gerrard have hardly missed a game.. That hasnt been said for a while

We'll have to agree to disagree mate, Mid table is harsh, i think as i said its a long way off winning the league and 2-3 quality additions from top 4 challenging..

But

Reina
Johnson
Enrique
Agger
Skrtel
Lucas
Gerrard
Allen
Suarez
Sterling
Downing

Isnt a mid table side for me.. Im not getting carried away that they are anywhere near our best, but in terms of this league right now? They arent mid table for me.

We havent had many injuries this season either, in the grand sceme of things, Agger, Suarez, Gerrard have hardly missed a game.. That hasnt been said for a while

That's a decent team mate on paper. But football isn't played on paper unfortunately.

That's a decent team mate on paper. But football isn't played on paper unfortunately.

No...

That's where planning, training, tactics and preparation come into it?

No doubt we are underperforming and we need a few extra players to kick us on.. But I can't have that's a mid table side

The table never lies mate, we're a midtable side there is no denying that. As DLS said, it looks good on paper but in reality we're far from a Champions League team.

IMO here's my rating of our current squad...:

Goalkeepers:
----Reina (30) Good enough for CL football, still one of the best shot stoppers in Europe I think

----Jones (30) Decent backup

----Doni (33) Not needed imo, high wages? (Sell)

----Gulacsi (22) Young 3rd choice, not an area we need to vitally improve


Defence:
----Johnson (28) Prime age, great going forward but sh*t at the back. Prefer Kelly at RB.

----Kelly (22) Huge potential, looks solid at RB and his best position I feel. Play him CB when he's more experienced?

----Flanagan (19) Still very young to decide, loan him out to a team that'll guarantee him playing time? (Loan out)

----Wisdom (19) Great physical attributes, but needs work on his defensive game. Reminds me of Micah Richards

----Skrtel (28) Very overrated IMO, no where near the best CB in the league..too much uneccessary 'no-nonsense defending' at times

----Agger (28) Our best defender ability wise, good on the ball too. One of the best in Europe? Far from it, too inconsistent

----Carragher (34) Legend but way past it now, not good enough simple as that unfortunately. The games getting faster, Carra isn't. No time for sentiment, we're Liverpool Football Club not a F***ing charity case. (Retire/Sell)

----Coates (22) Massive potential but Brendan isn't exploiting it. 3-0 up against QPR and Carra comes on over Coates, why?! Needs more playing time! Too much sentiment again

----Enrique (26) One of our better squad players, could be more consistent, however the ability is evident. Champions League quality when at his best

----Robinson (19) Again massive potential that needs to be realised. Why Downing plays LB I'll never know, give this lad a chance when Enrique is unavailable

Midfield:
----Sahin (24) Have hardly seen the lad tbh. He has quality no doubt if he plays for Madrid but needs to show it when given the chance. Would I buy him? No, way too many Center-mids at this club, albeit average ones.  (Terminate loan if we're paying some of his wages)

----Allen (22) Very average footballer. Great for Swansea, but he isn't CL quality. But he's still a young lad, so there's room for development

----Lucas (25) Has improved heaps in his time here, but still overrated by many Liverpool fans. CL quality, just about... World class, miles away.

----Gerrard (32) Getting on a bit but still our second best player at this club. Can still change a game, but much better in a deeper role, he doesn't have the legs to be box to box anymore.

----Shelvey (20) New Gerrard? Hell no! But great potential and ability, better than every single midfielder apart from Stevie. That's how I honestly feel, he needs to step up and rightfully claim his place.

----Henderson (22) Average player, has no place at Liverpool. Not much potential from what I've seen, worse than Allen. (Sell)

Attacking midfield/Wing forwards:
----Cole (31) Way past it, doesn't offer much, very high wages. (Sell)

----Assaidi (24) Why this guy hasn't played more I really don't have a clue. Looks very promising, speedy agile and tricky winger that can deliver the final ball. Needs to play more over Downing.

----Downing (28) Never rated him, never will. Absolutely sh*t. (Sell)

----Suso (19) Quality player this lad, needs much more playing time. Great on the ball, one to watch for the future. His nationality says it all

----Sterling (18) Had a good season no doubt, but will he be 'great'? I personally think nah, just another Shauny-Wright so far from what I've seen...hope to God I'm wrong

Attackers:
----Borini (21) Haven't seen much but from what I have seen, average. Reason for Chelsea and Swansea letting him go

----Suarez (25) Fantastic player, unbelievable ability. World class? No, too inconsistent. Misses too many chances and makes wrong decisions at times. Torres was twice as better when he played for us. But still our best player, need to build the team around him.

----Pacheco (21) Just don't understand why he doesn't play him. Young and talented lad in a department where we're short, needs to play more alongside Suarez, behind him. Even in the Att Mid positions or wing forward positions depending on formation.

----Carroll (23) Way overpaid for him but its happened. I'd see what price we could get for him. £12m or over then sell otherwise keep him and use him as a back-up. Very average I think, Crouch is better.


We have others to return such as Spearing, Wilson etc amongst other youngsters but in my overall judgement we just don't have anywhere near a good enough squad to compete for a CL spot/Prem title. We'd need at least top quality additions in the following positions to even consider thinking about competing in the top 4:

CB, CM, LM/LWF, RM/RWF, ST. And these signings need to be quality. Carroll, Hendo, Adam, Downing...a waste of near enough £80m F***ing pounds on absolute garbage. Our next couple of transfer windows is make or break for us, we could either descend and become an average mid-table to bottom half team or get better.

^^^^^
Agree with most of this apart from Pacheco who i think is also sh*t we should have
sold him to Norwich when we had the chance. He had an opportunity to show what
he could do early in the season Europa league ect & he was f***in dreadful didn't look
like he was interested (sell)

Pacheco (21) Just don't understand why he doesn't play him. Young and talented lad in a department where we're short, needs to play more alongside Suarez, behind him. Even in the Att Mid positions or wing forward positions depending on formation.

Pacheco is nowhere near first team ability - showed a lot of promise but just isn't good enough

Reina Average, Good, Great, Brilliant!

Johnson Brilliant!
Enrique Great
Wisdom Average
Agger Brilliant!
Skrtel Great
Carragher Average
Coates Good

Lucas Brilliant!
Gerrard Will always be awesome to me and has been brilliand recently
Allen Average
Sahin Great
Shelvey Good
Henderson Average

Downing less than Average
Assaidi Good
Sterling Good
Suarez Brilliant!
Suso Good for his age and if used well could be a star but the team is not good enough
Cole Average