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      Stoke City 3 - 1 Liverpool - post match boxing

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      AlexLFC95
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      Re: Stoke City 3 - 1 Liverpool - post match boxing
      Reply #506: Dec 27, 2012 12:22:57 am
      Wanyama, Sissoko, Matuidi, these players would add a lot to our team alongside Lucas in a 4-2-3-1
      redkenny
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      Re: Stoke City 3 - 1 Liverpool - post match boxing
      Reply #507: Dec 27, 2012 12:24:30 am
      but we didnt reject Ince he turned down numerous contract offers and we were forced to let him go and get a nominal fee

      Hence the speech marks around Liverpool reject - "Liverpool reject". Turning down a contract offer to play for Liverpool. f***in' disgrace.

      He wouldn't have been on the post for a corner tonight.
      George Lucas
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      Re: Stoke City 3 - 1 Liverpool - post match boxing
      Reply #508: Dec 27, 2012 12:28:19 am
      Hence the speech marks around Liverpool reject - "Liverpool reject". Turning down a contract offer to play for Liverpool. f***in' disgrace.

      He wouldn't have been on the post for a corner tonight.

      Well he wanted to play football and wasnt going to get it with us with the club splashing £20mil on Downing so can't blame him but that's a different subject

      I have no idea why we had no one on the post and Johnson next to Pepe ?! That's basic defending a corner
      racerx34
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      Re: Stoke City 3 - 1 Liverpool - post match boxing
      Reply #509: Dec 27, 2012 12:45:27 am
      Oh how I miss Didi and Mascherano.
      Thats as disjointed a midfield performance as I've ever seen.

      Pressed constantly by Stoke.
      Lost the ball. Got caught on the break.
      All. F***ing. Game.

      Suarez isolated.
      No options.

      No fire. No drive.
      Keep it up and Suarez will be gone next.
      srslfc
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      Re: Stoke City 3 - 1 Liverpool - post match boxing
      Reply #510: Dec 27, 2012 12:47:24 am
      Didn't see the game as I had family over but thoroughly depressed would be an understatement.
      dunlop liddell shankly
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      Re: Stoke City 3 - 1 Liverpool - post match boxing
      Reply #511: Dec 27, 2012 12:48:16 am
      Tonight's defeat didn't hurt me as much as some have done this year because we always struggle at Stoke and I expected the same this year. I actually think there's a slight psychological problem when we go there now. And when you look at their recent form, especially at home, a defeat isn't exactly too unexpected.

      But there were some shocking performances (again). Our full backs are still inept at defending, our centre halves looked like they wouldn't win a header against the seven dwarfs, our midfield is still not doing enough in either half of the field and our hopes rest on Suarez who ends up having to take on shots that he can't possibly score due to the fact that there's no other option.

      Kenwyne Jones, like Carlton Cole the other day, has taken a lot of stick from people on here and yet he ran Agger and Skrtel ragged while he was on the pitch. A past his best Ethrington was skimming Johnson frequently. Enrique was constantly out of position. Lucas didn't do what he susposedly good at. Shelvey is overrated (and yes I've always said that, it's not a knee-jerk reaction). Gerrard has done what Stevie has done for the last three years - let his head drop as soon as he doesn't believe we're gonna win the League. Suso isn't ready yet and I have my doubts as to if he ever will be. Downing can F**k off, one good game every now and then isn't enough. And Suarez done was Suarez does - he ran all F***ing game without any help from his team.

      But credit to Stoke, they could of easily let their own heads drop after the penalty but they never. They battled from the start like Stoke do and got their rewards. Two quality finishes from Walters and an easy header for Jones. Apart from that, they didn't really test Pepe - who had an ok game himself. They pinpointed our weaknesses (long balls towards Agger/Skrtel mainly and when it's on the ground, get it out wide because our full backs are positionally poor and not that great defensively) and they exploited this exceptionally well. So well done Stoke.

      We didn't exploit their weaknesses because simply we didn't have any pace in the side. Stoke struggle when teams run at them with pace because they're mainly a big and strong yet slow team. So all our passing in front of them doesn't worry them one bit because there's no quick passing or anybody with any real pace to run at them. Our lack of quick passing was evident by how many times Stoke pressed us and forced us to put ourselves in danger. If our passing was quick then Stoke pressing that high would of left spaces to find a Liverpool man in.

      So it's another game gone and the gap between ourselves at those above us has grown even wider. If he's fit and QPR have any sense they'd play Zamora against us and just launch the ball up towards him. That's obviously our weakness and teams will continue to exploit it.

      Bad day at the office but it's been and gone so onto QPR now.
      HeighwayToHeaven
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      Re: Stoke City 3 - 1 Liverpool - post match boxing
      Reply #512: Dec 27, 2012 12:51:25 am
      TheRedMosquito
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      Re: Stoke City 3 - 1 Liverpool - post match boxing
      Reply #513: Dec 27, 2012 12:52:48 am
      Tonight's defeat didn't hurt me as much as some have done this year because we always struggle at Stoke and I expected the same this year. I actually think there's a slight psychological problem when we go there now. And when you look at their recent form, especially at home, a defeat isn't exactly too unexpected.

      But there were some shocking performances (again). Our full backs are still inept at defending, our centre halves looked like they wouldn't win a header against the seven dwarfs, our midfield is still not doing enough in either half of the field and our hopes rest on Suarez who ends up having to take on shots that he can't possibly score due to the fact that there's no other option.

      Kenwyne Jones, like Carlton Cole the other day, has taken a lot of stick from people on here and yet he ran Agger and Skrtel ragged while he was on the pitch. A past his best Ethrington was skimming Johnson frequently. Enrique was constantly out of position. Lucas didn't do what he susposedly good at. Shelvey is overrated (and yes I've always said that, it's not a knee-jerk reaction). Gerrard has done what Stevie has done for the last three years - let his head drop as soon as he doesn't believe we're gonna win the League. Suso isn't ready yet and I have my doubts as to if he ever will be. Downing can f**k off, one good game every now and then isn't enough. And Suarez done was Suarez does - he ran all f**king game without any help from his team.

      But credit to Stoke, they could of easily let their own heads drop after the penalty but they never. They battled from the start like Stoke do and got their rewards. Two quality finishes from Walters and an easy header for Jones. Apart from that, they didn't really test Pepe - who had an ok game himself. They pinpointed our weaknesses (long balls towards Agger/Skrtel mainly and when it's on the ground, get it out wide because our full backs are positionally poor and not that great defensively) and they exploited this exceptionally well. So well done Stoke.

      We didn't exploit their weaknesses because simply we didn't have any pace in the side. Stoke struggle when teams run at them with pace because they're mainly a big and strong yet slow team. So all our passing in front of them doesn't worry them one bit because there's no quick passing or anybody with any real pace to run at them. Our lack of quick passing was evident by how many times Stoke pressed us and forced us to put ourselves in danger. If our passing was quick then Stoke pressing that high would of left spaces to find a Liverpool man in.

      So it's another game gone and the gap between ourselves at those above us has grown even wider. If he's fit and QPR have any sense they'd play Zamora against us and just launch the ball up towards him. That's obviously our weakness and teams will continue to exploit it.

      Bad day at the office but it's been and gone so onto QPR now.

      This is a great post. I agree with almost everything you say in here.

      The one thing I would disagree with is Suso. He's just not the same when he's played wide vs when he's played as the 10. His size could potentially be a problem, but I still think he has all the tools to succeed.
      dunlop liddell shankly
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      Re: Stoke City 3 - 1 Liverpool - post match boxing
      Reply #514: Dec 27, 2012 01:01:24 am
      This is a great post. I agree with almost everything you say in here.

      The one thing I would disagree with is Suso. He's just not the same when he's played wide vs when he's played as the 10. His size could potentially be a problem, but I still think he has all the tools to succeed.

      I think he has all the ability mate, just not the mental strength. I don't think he believes he should be playing at this level.
      srslfc
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      Re: Stoke City 3 - 1 Liverpool - post match boxing
      Reply #515: Dec 27, 2012 01:02:30 am
      I think he has all the ability mate, just not the mental strength. I don't think he believes he should be playing at this level.

      You could apply that to a lot of our players to be honest.
      dunlop liddell shankly
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      Re: Stoke City 3 - 1 Liverpool - post match boxing
      Reply #516: Dec 27, 2012 01:09:12 am
      You could apply that to a lot of our players to be honest.

      I actually think it's the opposite with a lot of the players mate.

      I think a lot of our players believe they're too good for a team in a midtable place.
      RedLFCBlood
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      Re: Stoke City 3 - 1 Liverpool - post match boxing
      Reply #517: Dec 27, 2012 01:12:17 am
      I think he has all the ability mate, just not the mental strength. I don't think he believes he should be playing at this level.

      I'd disagree mate, Suso was moaning about nothing changing etc on twitter when he wasn't getting first team football.

      So I'd say based on that he probably does believe he's good enough to play at this level and if anything was giving him self doubt, I'd probably go with being played out of position being the root cause.
      MIRO
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      Re: Stoke City 3 - 1 Liverpool - post match boxing
      Reply #518: Dec 27, 2012 01:14:42 am
      "I said during the week and last week that [consistency] will be the biggest thing for the group," explained the manager during his post-match press conference.

      "We were terrific at the weekend [against Fulham] but you have got to be able to put a run of games together  - if not you just keep taking two or three steps forward and making one or two back and then going again.

      "That's been the nature of the group over the last couple of years in terms of where we have finished. We're looking to improve that. There is still an awful lot of work to do.

      Club Website.
      Mr Rogers.


      Now there is an opinion from BR on the former managers.
      Concentrate on the task in hand. Not what Rafa Woy and Kenny did or didnt do.

      What you are supposed to be doing Mr R.
      By now ...getting results.
      dunlop liddell shankly
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      Re: Stoke City 3 - 1 Liverpool - post match boxing
      Reply #519: Dec 27, 2012 01:17:09 am
      I'd disagree mate, Suso was moaning about nothing changing etc on twitter when he wasn't getting first team football.

      So I'd say based on that he probably does believe he's good enough to play at this level and if anything was giving him self doubt, I'd probably go with being played out of position being the root cause.

      Maybe he has got the belief mate, it just looks to me that he hasn't. And as for being out position, I've seen him play wide right/left and in the hole and don't recall too many games where he's taken me breath away.

      But I suppose I also need to take into account this is his first year in the first team and he's still a kid so I shouldn't be expecting miracles either.
      TheRedMosquito
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      Re: Stoke City 3 - 1 Liverpool - post match boxing
      Reply #520: Dec 27, 2012 01:19:42 am
      Maybe he has got the belief mate, it just looks to me that he hasn't. And as for being out position, I've seen him play wide right/left and in the hole and don't recall too many games where he's taken me breath away.

      But I suppose I also need to take into account this is his first year in the first team and he's still a kid so I shouldn't be expecting miracles either.

      I thought his best games were at Norwich on the right, and vs Young Boys playing as the 10. He also did good in the League Cup at West Brom when he replaced Pacheco in the AM spot. He's a natural AM. I think they moved him for the Reserves in order to get him to use his right foot a bit more. (guessing on that though)
      RedLFCBlood
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      Re: Stoke City 3 - 1 Liverpool - post match boxing
      Reply #521: Dec 27, 2012 01:19:50 am
      Doesn't help that he's been bled in a team that's underperforming too mate.

      It can make all the difference in the world to youngsters and their confidence when the players around them are playing at the top of their game.
      dunlop liddell shankly
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      Re: Stoke City 3 - 1 Liverpool - post match boxing
      Reply #522: Dec 27, 2012 01:22:26 am
      Doesn't help that he's been bled in a team that's underperforming too mate.

      It can make all the difference in the world to youngsters and their confidence when the players around them are playing at the top of their game.

      I agree with that mate, it doesn't help that the team he's playing in is performing sh*te. But this is where a youngster should be standing up and showing their hunger the way Sterling has done so. Or the way Fowler did breaking in under Souness.

      I thought his best games were at Norwich on the right, and vs Young Boys playing as the 10. He also did good in the League Cup at West Brom when he replaced Pacheco in the AM spot. He's a natural AM. I think they moved him for the Reserves in order to get him to use his right foot a bit more. (guessing on that though)

      He is better in the hole I agree and if it meant Shelvey not playing then I'd happily put Suso in that position.
      Billy1
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      Re: Stoke City 3 - 1 Liverpool - post match boxing
      Reply #523: Dec 27, 2012 01:54:52 am
       I am sorry but I am so disappointedwith the way we played at Stoke,we came away with what we deserved -FU*K all.I have mentioned this in other posts but this close passing coming out of defence does my head in especially when we finish up losing possession inside our own half.Only once did Reina kick the ball into the Stoke half,now when Torres was with us it was a regular feature of Reinas play to kick the ball to Torres in the opposition half.I don't know but is this change of tactics due to to the managers or coaching staffs orders.Finally to finish off I watched the match with my Son and Grandson who have got the RED of Liverpool in them as have the rest of my family,having seen our club have so much success over the years it hurts me that they had to watch such an inept display as we showed against Stoke.If only all our players had the same drive and determination as Luis Suarez a lot of our problems would be solved. :f_wah:
      « Last Edit: Dec 27, 2012 02:14:40 am by Billy1 »
      FL Red
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      Re: Stoke City 3 - 1 Liverpool - post match boxing
      Reply #524: Dec 27, 2012 02:00:15 am
      "I said during the week and last week that [consistency] will be the biggest thing for the group," explained the manager during his post-match press conference.

      "We were terrific at the weekend [against Fulham] but you have got to be able to put a run of games together  - if not you just keep taking two or three steps forward and making one or two back and then going again.

      "That's been the nature of the group over the last couple of years in terms of where we have finished. We're looking to improve that. There is still an awful lot of work to do.

      Club Website.
      Mr Rogers.


      Now there is an opinion from BR on the former managers.
      Concentrate on the task in hand. Not what Rafa Woy and Kenny did or didnt do.

      What you are supposed to be doing Mr R.
      By now ...getting results.

      Must have missed where he mentioned any of our former managers. My eyes must be getting bad in my old age.

      Seemed obvious to me that he was talking about the squad.
      redkop63
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      Re: Stoke City 3 - 1 Liverpool - post match boxing
      Reply #525: Dec 27, 2012 02:09:26 am
      My observations, some may not agree with :-

      We're too slow to get out of defence. Our defenders took at times 3, 4, 5 touches on the ball before making a pass. Often looking far up the field pondering what to do next.  Stoke could see that and they were quick to close us down, nothing to loose for them,  and they knew too well we couldn't manoeuvre the ball out of defence fast enough to the midfield to hurt them. This is embarassing.

      When we're pinned to the touchline, we simply don't have the players with the quality to get the ball out of those tight situations to the middle of the pitch and to the forward line resulting in the back and side passes.

      When the midfield was in possession, they're always looking to pass to the wingers, all too predictable, no effort to attack through the middle and break through the opposition defence.

      We have committed enough bodies forward but the efforts were half - hearted and it's pretty clear that the movement of players into the box is at random, no pre-determined strategy or movement.

      Positioning of players inside the box was poor as well, why should we allow Stoke defence to pin 2 of our players back at the far post when one should move to the near post to meet the incoming passes or crosses. When we have 2 or 3 bodies inside the box, it's always at those less desirable locations that they shouldn't be in the first place.

      We just don't have the quality of midfielders that dares to take on defenders and bring the ball into the box or make that defence splitting pass. We seemed to shy away from the edge of their box and let the Stoke defenders shooed us away.

      We could be staying up all night talking about tactics, but we simply do not have good enough players with quality and desire to take us back to the top. We need to get in perhaps 5 to 6 players to do that, it's a big ask but it's the reality.
       
      On a positive note, at least Sterling made the difference when he came on, very much a threat and he did bully Stoke's defenders which I expect the rest to do the same.

       
      « Last Edit: Dec 27, 2012 02:21:43 am by redkop63 »
      indlfc
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      Re: Stoke City 3 - 1 Liverpool - post match boxing
      Reply #526: Dec 27, 2012 04:20:41 am
      You could apply that to a lot of our players to be honest.
      Actually a lot of players are like that. Allen,Shelvey,Sterling,Suso,Downing will not get into any of the top 6 or top 8 side. Barring downing all are potential players, they may become class players. But at the moment they are not good enough to play every games. Since we don't have any other options we can sadly move onto 'accepting mediocrity' thread. :(
      alex1995
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      Re: Stoke City 3 - 1 Liverpool - post match boxing
      Reply #527: Dec 27, 2012 05:22:57 am
      Our wingers bar Sterling and Suso are pathetic to have in a team like Liverpool. Cole!? Downing!? vs Stoke City when you want to be back in Europe?
      Shelvey was average and Lucas should have never been subbed. WTF BR!? Cole again? Downing finishing another game after such an atrocious performance. I have pity for Suarez who doesn't deserve such pathetic results. He gave his all but the strikers around him have no guts or some have forgotten how to pass a ball or dribble.

      We should sign at least 3 players in January BR. No more these "1 or 2 additions"; and I don't know what big characters he's talking about!? f there are good players they are at the back(agger, skrtel, lucas, johnson, enrique) and Suarez. I'm so furious towards him. He has not sort out the defensive issues and has been ridiculous concerning his team selections(Sahin, Assaidi, Downing, Cole, Suso, Hendo).
      KopiteLuke
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      Re: Stoke City 3 - 1 Liverpool - post match boxing
      Reply #528: Dec 27, 2012 06:03:44 am
      A performance that felt like watching an ugly woman scratch her nails on a blackboard for almost the entire game.

      We've supposedly brought in a psychologist to improve the mentality of the group, well it appears his work is showing no progress so far, I have rarely witnessed a weaker, more easily bullied and out battled group than the one we put out there against Stoke. You can invent all the excuses regarding Christmas pudding, hangovers or whatever equally ridiculous festive reason you like but that was simply not good enough on absolutely any level you wish to judge it.

      Physically we were out fought, out ran and the determination in our challenges was like watching Men with brittle bone syndrome trying to challenge Men made of stone, the commitment in the challenge was nothing short of pathetic. This gave strength to the mentality of Stoke and they used this strength to bully us all over the pitch, whenever there was a 50/50 our players just accepted it was a challenge they couldn't win and for me this was the most painful thing and disappointing thing to witness in the match. Only Suarez, Enrique, Reina and Gerrard on one occasion didn't succumb to this mentality and this lack of strength of character will mean that this group of players can come back to the Britannia as often as they like, but until they grow a pair of bollocks, realise the responsibility, privilege, duty and honour it is to wear that red shirt they can expect nothing more than they got tonight, which was completely dominated.

      Jonjo Shelvey had possibly the worst performance I've witnessed by a Liverpool player this season, I cannot comprehend how he came out again in the second half and why Rodgers felt he deserved to continue in a game he was having absolutely no impact on. I agree with the substitution of Suso who simply shouldn't be starting games for us at the moment, he had one decent pass to Suarez and is technically very good but looks so lacking of pace it's frightening how in yards of space he is so easily closed down. Moving him into the hole instead of Shelvey would perhaps have been a better option on the night, simply because Shelvey was having such a nightmare and bringing Sterling onto the wing but I would have rather seen Cole and Sterling brought on and put Joe into the hole. Shelvey simply isn't technically strong enough to play as a foil for Suarez, his talents don't lend themselves to playing intricate football and until he works on this side of his game he is unlikely to make the impact he would like.

      Downing went back to being a player who didn't want the ball and doesn't know how to play his position in this system, every time he had someone support him he simply allowed them to run past him and assumed their position. The idea is to add men to the attack not to rotate positions, to create two v's ones and to get men into the box, he simply doesn't understand the attacking nature of this system or perhaps more likely is he's simply too lazy to apply himself to it, which is why we should look to offload this waste of space at the first given opportunity.

      The substitution of Henderson was baffling to say the least, when you're two goals down and you look to Henderson to make an impact you're already asking for miracles and why he was introduced makes me question Brendan's tactical awareness. The level of impact this lad has can only be likened to a gnats fart on the Richter scale. What was Brendan expecting this change to do to the team and like a poster earlier who said his Dad was infuriated by him doing his hair on the sidelines while preparing to be introduced, I can only agree with this. When he did come on it felt like any air that had filled in our chests, any strength that we'd begun to muster just drained away with watching this abject, careless, passionless husk of a player drift around the pitch with not a single emotion or semblance at the situation at hand.

      While our defending was undoubtedly abysmal for our second and third goal it is almost an insult when Brendan comes out afterwards and uses this as our only negative. Fair enough if he's hiding his true emotions and the truth of our complete abject performance from the grips of the media, because I've been calling for him to give them less tit bits to feed on but I hope to god he roasted the hair off their faces in that dressing room because no players, playing for the club I love should ever put in a performance so bereft of any passion or belief than we were subjected to in that game.

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