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      General LFC Transfer rumours/gossip thread

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      srslfc
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      Re: General Transfer rumours/gossip thread
      Reply #35834: Jun 19, 2018 02:31:19 pm
      Rose tinted glasses are a marvellous thing aren't they, so if you are right I imagine all the other teams would swap their keeper for ours, I very much doubt they all would though.

      Pretty sure that isn't what I said but not surprised you've interpreted it as that.

      But if you want to put it like that then if you put Karius beside any keeper other than those elite 6/7 in Europe then I don't see a noticeable difference in quality.
      CT_LFC
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      Re: General Transfer rumours/gossip thread
      Reply #35835: Jun 19, 2018 02:32:04 pm
      So do you think Karius is a better goalkeeper than Schmeichel and Lloris?

      There's a decent chance you and i are better than Lloris. His actual level is nowhere near his perceived level.
      Kopite78
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      Re: General Transfer rumours/gossip thread
      Reply #35836: Jun 19, 2018 02:33:34 pm
      Nice deflection attempt, why don't you just answer the question, where would you rank Karius as you see him as one of the best in the Prem?

      Because I was asking you for your list?

      Then I'll respond

      You're the one deflecting by saying where you rate him with no actual substance  and then not actually showing any of your thought process.

      You give it and I'll respond

      I'm not actually defending or attacking Karius here.. I just wanted a bit of substance to your view
      Diego LFC
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      Re: General Transfer rumours/gossip thread
      Reply #35837: Jun 19, 2018 02:38:29 pm
      Just don't get what Karius has done in the last two years to make people think that we should only be after a world class goalkeeper to improve on him. To me he's been shaky throughout his time here, even when he improved in the last few months of the season he was still making mistakes on a regular basis especially in the Champions League.

      Guess it's just all opinions and that, to me someone like Pope would actually be a good improvement on Karius. Wouldn't break the bank hopefully which should allow us to get the couple of attackers we need.

      Agree with this. His main achievement this season was to be better than Mignolet which he's done to a questionable extent.
      Even his passing and distribution, which most probably is the main improvement from the awfully slow Mignolet, are nothing special at all. His long kicks aren't great, his throws are not particularly above average either. He's more positive though which was good.
      He has hardly saved goals that I wouldn't expect an average Premier League keeper to save, and on the other hand in his short career with LFC he's a fair number of howlers, some of which thankfully did not count.
      He's so great that he was bought to be our number 1, started the season as our starting keeper, and had to be moved back to the bench for a truly mediocre keeper like Mignolet. But yeah, he's better than Hugo Lloris. Of course.
      Danzel
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      Re: General Transfer rumours/gossip thread
      Reply #35838: Jun 19, 2018 02:39:32 pm
      I think Ederson appears to be a better keeper than he is because of the attacking ability of his team, but I’ve got no stats to back that up.

      Fun fact: Karius has a higher save% than Ederson.

      Just to make sure, I  think save% is the worst statistic to judge goalkeepers on. But for others out there, that surely means Karius is a better goalkeeper than Ederson. I mean, he saves, on average, more of his shots on target than Ederson does.
      « Last Edit: Jun 19, 2018 02:53:29 pm by Danzel »
      FL Red
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      Re: General Transfer rumours/gossip thread
      Reply #35839: Jun 19, 2018 02:41:28 pm
      Agree with this. His main achievement this season was to be better than Mignolet which he's done to a questionable extent.
      Even his passing and distribution, which most probably is the main improvement from the awfully slow Mignolet, are nothing special at all. His long kicks aren't great, his throws are not particularly above average either. He's more positive though which was good.
      He has hardly saved goals that I wouldn't expect an average Premier League keeper to save, and on the other hand in his short career with LFC he's a fair number of howlers, some of which thankfully did not count.
      He's so great that he was bought to be our number 1, started the season as our starting keeper, and had to be moved back to the bench for a truly mediocre keeper like Mignolet. But yeah, he's better than Hugo Lloris. Of course.

      I am curious as to how you rate Lloris. The times I've watched him, he's been unimpressive and while he may not make "howlers" as you like to call them, I've seen him make plenty of mistakes due to his own arrogance.
      CT_LFC
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      Re: General Transfer rumours/gossip thread
      Reply #35840: Jun 19, 2018 02:44:15 pm
      I think Ederson appears to be a better keeper than he is because of the attacking ability of his team, but I’ve got no stats to back that up.

      Ederson is reaching Lloris-type level of overrated. While he has a majestic left foot (interesting to see someone move from LB to GK like he did) he is not very good at the other areas.
      Diego LFC
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      Re: General Transfer rumours/gossip thread
      Reply #35841: Jun 19, 2018 02:44:58 pm
      I am curious as to how you rate Lloris. The times I've watched him, he's been unimpressive and while he may not make "howlers" as you like to call them, I've seen him make plenty of mistakes due to his own arrogance.

      Lloris hasn't had the best of seasons but he's been a reliable, above average goalkeeper for years. That makes him a much better keeper than Karius right now.
      FL Red
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      Re: General Transfer rumours/gossip thread
      Reply #35842: Jun 19, 2018 02:53:21 pm
      Lloris hasn't had the best of seasons but he's been a reliable, above average goalkeeper for years. That makes him a much better keeper than Karius right now.

      No, that makes him an above average keeper for years. Right now though, he's not had the best of seasons and isn't head and shoulders better than Karius performance wise (at least that's a reasonable argument in my mind).

      Just ask yourself...if we had won (I know, revisionism and everything) the final and Karius had just played average but we had blown them away with our scoring...would anyone be having this conversation about Karius thinking he needed replacing with such urgency? I don't think so. That means one game has changed people's perspective on this man's body of work. I'm not saying he's a great goalkeeper...he's not. I think there's a good goalkeeper in there and whether we should throw him away or not isn't up to me (thankfully), but I'm just not in favor of replacing him unless we can replace him with one of those great keepers.
      Danzel
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      Re: General Transfer rumours/gossip thread
      Reply #35843: Jun 19, 2018 02:55:53 pm
      Agree with this. His main achievement this season was to be better than Mignolet which he's done to a questionable extent.
      Even his passing and distribution, which most probably is the main improvement from the awfully slow Mignolet, are nothing special at all. His long kicks aren't great, his throws are not particularly above average either. He's more positive though which was good.
      He has hardly saved goals that I wouldn't expect an average Premier League keeper to save, and on the other hand in his short career with LFC he's a fair number of howlers, some of which thankfully did not count.
      He's so great that he was bought to be our number 1, started the season as our starting keeper, and had to be moved back to the bench for a truly mediocre keeper like Mignolet. But yeah, he's better than Hugo Lloris. Of course.

      Karius' throwing and short passing accuracy is among the best in Europe, let alone the PL. The reason why his long kicking % is lower, is because he is asked to play these long passes into areas (sides of the pitch) where the opposition defenders have to deal with these high, low paced kicks of his and we can set up situations where we can press and counter-attack. When he does play it long and accurate, he'll put far more pace and less arc (not sure how to say it in English) on his passes.

      Agreed that he hasn't had to make too many worldclass saves (though I think there's a few against Seville, Newcastle, Everton and West-Ham for example this season). Thing is that if he makes them, people are quick to say that they expect 'their average PL goalkeeper' to make those too and when they make a similar save, it's a brilliant save.

      Disagree about the number of howlers, he made a few, yes. Two in the CL final of course, the other against Roma, but I've seen many goalkeeprs misjudge the flight of the ball in situations like that with the type of balls we play with these days.

      It's all opinions of course, but advanced analysis and statistics (of which I'm sure our manager makes use of too and why Karius is his #1), all show that Karius is amongst the best in the PL in many aspects of his game that are important in the system that we play, whether people believe it or not. They would rather trust their eyes, which miss so much, than professionals and analysis / statistics that prove them wrong.
      CT_LFC
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      Re: General Transfer rumours/gossip thread
      Reply #35844: Jun 19, 2018 02:57:08 pm
      Are you suggesting that we don't have attacking ability???

      Last season everyone was afraid of City's offense and basically parked the bus on them for 90 minutes hoping to steal a point. Everyone saw it and everyone commented on it all season long.

      However, when a team actually tried to attack them, like we did, their defense and Ederson showed to be very porous. Remember the 4-3 game at Anfield? Probably should have done better on Ox's goal, but more importantly, gifted us our 4th goal to Salah from a poor clearance that ended up being the game-winning goal.

      Remember the 1st leg in the CL? Handled Firmino's weak shot like it was a grenade and fumbled it, then the defense fu**ed it up even further and finally Salah scores on an open net after Ederson goes down too early desperately trying to anticipate timing of the shot.

      Remember the 2nd leg in the CL? Mane is in on goal, Ederson comes out and takes him out but can't control the ball which bounces to Salah for an easy goal.

      I also saw a few City games where he almost cost a goal against with poor decision making and got lucky to get away it with.
      crouchinho
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      Re: General Transfer rumours/gossip thread
      Reply #35845: Jun 19, 2018 03:04:45 pm
      Just ask yourself...if we had won (I know, revisionism and everything) the final and Karius had just played average but we had blown them away with our scoring...would anyone be having this conversation about Karius thinking he needed replacing with such urgency? I don't think so. That means one game has changed people's perspective on this man's body of work.

      If it takes one game to change people's minds, then those minds aren't worth considering in this debate.

      He's been here two seasons and both times found himself on the bench behind a truly awful keeper. Surely that's the bottom line to this whole debate?
      FL Red
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      Re: General Transfer rumours/gossip thread
      Reply #35846: Jun 19, 2018 03:09:57 pm
      If it takes one game to change people's minds, then those minds aren't worth considering in this debate.

      He's been here two seasons and both times found himself on the bench behind a truly awful keeper. Surely that's the bottom line to this whole debate?

      Mignolet isn't awful. I swear the hyperbole that's used on this forum is maddening sometimes. I'm not sure how people go about rating keepers, but hardly any of them should be classed as awful.

      They perform a function where if they aren't 100% on then someone critiques their performance and they are subpar. On the other hand, a striker can miss 75% of their shots, but if the one they make is a game winner, then they are man of the match.

      Karius found himself on the bench because Klopp didn't like how our own fanbase (and the media) were calling for his head. He tried to protect him and it appeared to work. Once he came back in, he played pretty much as expected. We didn't buy him expecting him to be Oblak or De Gea right away, the hope is that he could grow, learn and improve and maybe reach those heights at some point. But if we aren't patient enough to see it through, then what's the point?

      If you give me the choice between Karius or Oblak or De Gea, of course I'd take one of them. But if you are giving me the choice of Karius or Pope or Butland, or Schmeicel (however the hell you spell it) or Lloris or Leno....I'm ok if Klopp wants to stick with Karius.

      I still think with improvement he can be a really good keeper, and who knows, maybe what happened in the final makes him buckle down and changes his narrative?
      HUYTON RED
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      Re: General Transfer rumours/gossip thread
      Reply #35847: Jun 19, 2018 03:12:43 pm
      Mignolet isn't awful. I swear the hyperbole that's used on this forum is maddening sometimes. 

      Sit in the ground and watch him fully for 90 minutes, you'll have a totally different perspective!!



      GegenPressClub
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      Re: General Transfer rumours/gossip thread
      Reply #35848: Jun 19, 2018 03:43:16 pm
      The main reason I submitted the list was to highlight just how subjective this all is. What actually makes a good keeper? Is a good keeper for one club necessarily a good keeper for another? What attributes are really most important to Liverpool? What attributes are really most important to us each here when judging keepers, potentially for Liverpool or otherwise? It's a joke!

      My list was predominantly a judgement on what I saw last year, and how I felt that keeper would perform for us. That position in my mind was also then altered to certain extents by their greater history of performances, as well as a personal projection of how I think they'll go next year.

      So, for example, keepers like Lloris, Begovic and Cech dropped in my mind with their performances this year, while Pope and Dubravka raised theirs with performances and temperament that inspire a positive projection from me. Can't get more subjective than that!

      Then there is the fact that I'm clearly looking for different qualities than most of you, and possibly Liverpool too. Many of you judge really highly on shot stopping (particularly of the acrobatic type). Others on one's ability to be a sweeper keeper. For me, I look at other intangibles as possibly even more important.

      I mean, does Liverpool face enough challenging shots on target compared to most clubs that require athletic shot stopping to be the most important quality to have? Sure, Karius can make some great reflex saves, but one could also argue that when he has more time he often poorly judges the flight of the ball (often with disastrous consequences). Is this a technical problem or a temperament one in his case? I'm not sure I'm happy to wait for him to overcome it, either way. Is he really that convincing when he rushes up to claim a ball before an advancing attacker as a sweeper keeper. I know I haven't been all that convinced.

      What I value more than his debatable positives though, is someone who fills me (and likely his own defenders) with more confidence. We need someone who communicates well and who commands the box. Again, this is subjective, but I personally have no doubt that both Karius and Mignolet suck at this. Not only not close to world class, but very ordinary. As a team that loves to counter attack, but will end up dominating possession and chances for probably 33+ PL games per year now, we're going to be targeted most from set pieces and crosses. If our keepers commanded the box with actions and words, I'd be so much more forgiving of bloopers. So would many other fans, for we'd see the vast improvement in our defence as a solid, collective unit. No more embarrassing goals from corners and free kicks. No more having to witness our defenders (and Hendo/Can) all looking at each other with accusations after an opponent wasn't marked/tracked, or a clearance made, because no one damn talks and demands responsibility to be taken.

      Before VVD came we were a hot mess. He has already improved the culture of our defence, but we still have a way to go. TAA and Robbo are great, but despite being positive doers, they are still followers at this stage of their careers. The temperament of Lovren and Karius/Mignolet, however are still liabilities. A strong keeper combined with VVD may just push Lovren to a higher, more consistent standard, but without one, I see us continuing to be vulnerable and error prone to a degree that will still make us challenging Man City a really tough challenge.

      We don't need, nor want, Sergio Ramos type players, but we do need some more mongrel and leadership at the back. Our "nice guys" may not come last, but to come first, which is what we're all desperate for here, we need more character. And when I compare Karius to others, he falls well short, and I just can't project him to much better at this stage. I just can't.
      PurpleMonkey
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      Re: General Transfer rumours/gossip thread
      Reply #35849: Jun 19, 2018 03:58:26 pm
      Guys, why hasn't anyone mentioned Perin or Szczesny yet?! :D
      Robby The Z
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      Re: General Transfer rumours/gossip thread
      Reply #35850: Jun 19, 2018 04:18:33 pm
      Guys, why hasn't anyone mentioned Perin or Szczesny yet?! :D

      That backup keeper at Tunisia was boss.  :roll:

      The keeper we bring in will replace Simon and battle with Karius for the #1 job.
      PurpleMonkey
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      Re: General Transfer rumours/gossip thread
      Reply #35851: Jun 19, 2018 04:21:10 pm
      That backup keeper at Tunisia was boss.  :roll:

      If Juventus actually buy Perin, I would love us to go for Szczesny, he really would give Karius a run for his money.
      HUYTON RED
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      Re: General Transfer rumours/gossip thread
      Reply #35852: Jun 19, 2018 04:27:02 pm
      If Juventus actually buy Perin, I would love us to go for Szczesny, he really would give Karius a run for his money.

      I'd rather swerve, was never impressed with him when he was at Arsenal.
      bazspeedman
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      Re: General Transfer rumours/gossip thread
      Reply #35853: Jun 19, 2018 04:29:15 pm
      If Juventus actually buy Perin, I would love us to go for Szczesny, he really would give Karius a run for his money.

      God no.

      We want a new number 1 not an average keeper to compete with an average keeper.
      PurpleMonkey
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      Re: General Transfer rumours/gossip thread
      Reply #35854: Jun 19, 2018 04:52:16 pm
      I think you guys will be surprised at how good he is now. And even better, he is in his peak years.

      Should have been Juventus' #1 this season instead of Buffon.
      FATKOPITE10
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      Re: General Transfer rumours/gossip thread
      Reply #35855: Jun 19, 2018 04:57:49 pm
      If Juventus actually buy Perin, I would love us to go for Szczesny, he really would give Karius a run for his money.

      Is reginal perrin still alive ?
      crouchinho
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      Re: General Transfer rumours/gossip thread
      Reply #35856: Jun 19, 2018 05:00:58 pm

      Not reading the rest.

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