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      General LFC Transfer rumours/gossip thread

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      Diego LFC
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      Re: General Transfer rumours/gossip thread
      Reply #35926: Jun 20, 2018 05:33:44 pm
      Karius' long kicking is legendary when compared to clown shows like Schmeichel who could not keep the ball on the field when he played against us  ;)

      Funny because whoscored.com automatically calculates players strengths and weaknesses based on their season statistics and...


      Diego LFC
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      Re: General Transfer rumours/gossip thread
      Reply #35927: Jun 20, 2018 05:35:54 pm
      Karius' throwing and short passing accuracy is among the best in Europe, let alone the PL. The reason why his long kicking % is lower, is because he is asked to play these long passes into areas (sides of the pitch) where the opposition defenders have to deal with these high, low paced kicks of his and we can set up situations where we can press and counter-attack. When he does play it long and accurate, he'll put far more pace and less arc (not sure how to say it in English) on his passes.

      Agreed that he hasn't had to make too many worldclass saves (though I think there's a few against Seville, Newcastle, Everton and West-Ham for example this season). Thing is that if he makes them, people are quick to say that they expect 'their average PL goalkeeper' to make those too and when they make a similar save, it's a brilliant save.

      Disagree about the number of howlers, he made a few, yes. Two in the CL final of course, the other against Roma, but I've seen many goalkeeprs misjudge the flight of the ball in situations like that with the type of balls we play with these days.

      It's all opinions of course, but advanced analysis and statistics (of which I'm sure our manager makes use of too and why Karius is his #1), all show that Karius is amongst the best in the PL in many aspects of his game that are important in the system that we play, whether people believe it or not. They would rather trust their eyes, which miss so much, than professionals and analysis / statistics that prove them wrong.

      Is there such a thing as a goalkeeper with a low short passing accuracy?

      Please do share the advanced statistics that put Karius among the best in the PL?
      CT_LFC
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      Re: General Transfer rumours/gossip thread
      Reply #35928: Jun 20, 2018 06:06:50 pm
      Funny because whoscored.com automatically calculates players strengths and weaknesses based on their season statistics and...



      This is great. So Schmeichel only has 1 strength to his game?  :lmao: this can't be serious.
      FL Red
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      Re: General Transfer rumours/gossip thread
      Reply #35929: Jun 20, 2018 06:09:49 pm
      Funny because whoscored.com automatically calculates players strengths and weaknesses based on their season statistics and...




      Wait, so Schmeichel's only strength is his long passing? What about his shot stopping? What about him coming to get crosses? What about his throwing? Does he have any strength other than long passing? Sounds like a one trick pony to me :lmao:
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      Re: General Transfer rumours/gossip thread
      Reply #35930: Jun 20, 2018 06:11:15 pm
      I think it’s got to be Oblak or no one.

      Not into taking punts on keepers anymore. So if no one world class is on our list I think Karius will be in the sticks next year

      To activate a release clause in Spain the money has to be paid in one hit doesn’t it? It can’t be spread over payments like all other transfers are usually done. If this is the case then no chance can I see us paying out that much money in one hit. Unfortunately.
      Diego LFC
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      Re: General Transfer rumours/gossip thread
      Reply #35931: Jun 20, 2018 06:14:15 pm
      This is great. So Schmeichel only has 1 strength to his game?  :lmao: this can't be serious.

      It's automatically calculated based on stats. Not sure how they calculate it to be honest, I imagine when it's either below or above a certain threshold they show as a weakness or a strength. It's hardly advanced stats but clearly shows Karius hasn't been particularly great at that long passing stuff. But hey, I guess if I watch that Karius compilation of floated kicks to crowded areas again I could change my mind...
      Diego LFC
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      Re: General Transfer rumours/gossip thread
      Reply #35932: Jun 20, 2018 06:15:50 pm
      Wait, so Schmeichel's only strength is his long passing? What about his shot stopping? What about him coming to get crosses? What about his throwing? Does he have any strength other than long passing? Sounds like a one trick pony to me :lmao:

      No significant weaknesses either so I guess this probably indicate that the stats that whoscored use to calculate those "strengths" and "weaknesses" have been pretty much average this past season.
      Magillionare
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      Re: General Transfer rumours/gossip thread
      Reply #35933: Jun 20, 2018 06:39:56 pm
      To activate a release clause in Spain the money has to be paid in one hit doesn’t it? It can’t be spread over payments like all other transfers are usually done. If this is the case then no chance can I see us paying out that much money in one hit. Unfortunately.

      I have no idea, but if I was to guess I'd say so
      CT_LFC
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      Re: General Transfer rumours/gossip thread
      Reply #35934: Jun 20, 2018 06:46:44 pm
      It's automatically calculated based on stats. Not sure how they calculate it to be honest, I imagine when it's either below or above a certain threshold they show as a weakness or a strength. It's hardly advanced stats but clearly shows Karius hasn't been particularly great at that long passing stuff. But hey, I guess if I watch that Karius compilation of floated kicks to crowded areas again I could change my mind...

      Me neither, because if i look at their GK rating for last season, DeGea was pretty damn crappy ranked 18th out of 21 (i filtered for >18games) but could have swore my eyes saw something completely different.



      Diego LFC
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      Re: General Transfer rumours/gossip thread
      Reply #35935: Jun 20, 2018 06:51:47 pm
      Me neither, because if i look at their GK rating for last season, DeGea was pretty damn crappy ranked 18th out of 21 (i filtered for >18games) but could have swore my eyes saw something completely different.

      The rankings are different though because they aggregate various stats as opposed to those that show strengths and weaknesses.
      But not sure how you saw De Gea ranked 18th out of 21, I just checked and he was ranked 3rd in the Premier League, below only Pope and Fabianski who've had great seasons in terms of shot stopping.
      CT_LFC
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      Re: General Transfer rumours/gossip thread
      Reply #35936: Jun 20, 2018 07:01:17 pm
      The rankings are different though because they aggregate various stats as opposed to those that show strengths and weaknesses.
      But not sure how you saw De Gea ranked 18th out of 21, I just checked and he was ranked 3rd in the Premier League, below only Pope and Fabianski who've had great seasons in terms of shot stopping.

      My bad, i forgot saying last season now refers to 2017-2018. I meant 2016-2017 where DeGea has a rating of 6.57.
      Danzel
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      Re: General Transfer rumours/gossip thread
      Reply #35937: Jun 20, 2018 07:14:51 pm
      Is there such a thing as a goalkeeper with a low short passing accuracy?

      Please do share the advanced statistics that put Karius among the best in the PL?

      There's no one with low short passing accuracy, they're small margins, obviously. But he is amongst the best. Sadly enough some of the comparisons (statistics) have been deleted due to a topic having been deleted, but I did manage to find these. These are charts that have been put together by people (they're mentioned on each of the charts) who have access to the advanced statistics and databases that we don't have access to. They're numbers, of course, but they do tell a story, certainly if you look at the last one. I'd say they're pretty spot on.

      This is Karius compared to the average goalkeeper:



      I'd say he looks pretty damn good.

      This is Karius compared to Keylor Navas (for those who think Navas is better):



      Karius compared to Butland:



      Not even a contest.

      Last but not least, Karius compared to the one a lot of people want to bring in, Oblak:



      This one shows what we obviously all know, Oblak is a better shot stopper (whether it's him or the system he plays), it clearly shows so on the chart. More clean sheets, less goals conceded etc. Karius is far better than him at every other aspect of the game though. Then it depends on what you value most, pure shot stopping ability to play behind a high line in our system or all the other qualities. I'm sure Klopp, as is clear by his choices present and in the past with regards to goalkeepers, doesn't care all that much about the save% and values all the other qualities far more.
      leosc
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      Re: General Transfer rumours/gossip thread
      Reply #35938: Jun 20, 2018 10:20:08 pm
      To activate a release clause in Spain the money has to be paid in one hit doesn’t it? It can’t be spread over payments like all other transfers are usually done. If this is the case then no chance can I see us paying out that much money in one hit. Unfortunately.

      Correct, the player or his representative has to  go to La Liga office and deposit the entire release clause, they give him his release and pay the money to the club.
      mcarz
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      Re: General Transfer rumours/gossip thread
      Reply #35939: Jun 20, 2018 10:24:13 pm
      Correct, the player or his representative has to  go to La Liga office and deposit the entire release clause, they give him his release and pay the money to the club.

      I remember Barcelona complaining to La Liga because PSG were originally planning on paying Neymar's release clause in installments. PSG paying it all up front is no doubt why they're under the microscope of UEFA when it comes to FFP.
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      Re: General Transfer rumours/gossip thread
      Reply #35940: Jun 20, 2018 10:27:06 pm

      Oh to have those save % and catches.
      leosc
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      Re: General Transfer rumours/gossip thread
      Reply #35941: Jun 20, 2018 10:29:59 pm
      I remember Barcelona complaining to La Liga because PSG were originally planning on paying Neymar's release clause in installments. PSG paying it all up front is no doubt why they're under the microscope of UEFA when it comes to FFP.

      Yes, PSG wanted to buy Neymar from Barcelona for the amount of the release fee, but like any other deal they’d get the money in installements, Barcelona said that if they wanted him they had to pay the release clause so he showed up the next day and handed the money to La Liga.

      Allegedly it was payd because he is an ambassador for the Qatar World Cup...
      Brian78
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      Re: General Transfer rumours/gossip thread
      Reply #35942: Jun 20, 2018 10:30:17 pm
      Are De Vrij and Casillas still free transfers?
      mcarz
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      Re: General Transfer rumours/gossip thread
      Reply #35943: Jun 20, 2018 10:33:54 pm
      Are De Vrij and Casillas still free transfers?

      De Vrij has signed a 5 year deal with Inter. He joins at the end of this month.
      Brian78
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      Re: General Transfer rumours/gossip thread
      Reply #35944: Jun 20, 2018 10:44:16 pm
      De Vrij has signed a 5 year deal with Inter. He joins at the end of this month.

      Thanks
      Diego LFC
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      Re: General Transfer rumours/gossip thread
      Reply #35945: Jun 20, 2018 11:13:18 pm
      There's no one with low short passing accuracy, they're small margins, obviously. But he is amongst the best. Sadly enough some of the comparisons (statistics) have been deleted due to a topic having been deleted, but I did manage to find these. These are charts that have been put together by people (they're mentioned on each of the charts) who have access to the advanced statistics and databases that we don't have access to. They're numbers, of course, but they do tell a story, certainly if you look at the last one. I'd say they're pretty spot on.

      This is Karius compared to the average goalkeeper:



      I'd say he looks pretty damn good.

      This is Karius compared to Keylor Navas (for those who think Navas is better):



      Karius compared to Butland:



      Not even a contest.

      Last but not least, Karius compared to the one a lot of people want to bring in, Oblak:



      This one shows what we obviously all know, Oblak is a better shot stopper (whether it's him or the system he plays), it clearly shows so on the chart. More clean sheets, less goals conceded etc. Karius is far better than him at every other aspect of the game though. Then it depends on what you value most, pure shot stopping ability to play behind a high line in our system or all the other qualities. I'm sure Klopp, as is clear by his choices present and in the past with regards to goalkeepers, doesn't care all that much about the save% and values all the other qualities far more.

      Thanks for sharing, that's really interesting and I'm curious to read more.

      But I'm looking at this and I'm seeing some very simple descriptive statistics displayed in a smart fashion, but not exactly what I'd call advanced stats? I mean, % of clean sheets is hardly even a measure of goalkeeper performance but more of the team as a whole. I guess the ones that might be more advanced are the likes of Shot Diff and Distribution Quality so I'd definitely be curious to understand those.

      I'm not convinced by your argument that Karius is "better" in "every other aspect" though. You cast doubts over Oblak's shot stopping abilities by hinting that those may not be "him" but "the system he plays", however you don't seem to apply the same logic to Karius. If you're asked to play with a higher line and come to collect/punch the ball or clear the line in more advanced positions, then you're bound to have higher numbers in those - and a higher success rate - than if you're not generally asked to do so, but may only come forward when your system has failed and you have to come up in riskier situations as a last resort.

      Stuff like counting the number of punches and then dividing it by 90 minutes is hardly advanced statistics, and it seems to me to be *much* more reflective of a team's tactics than a consistent overperformance in shot stopping ability as displayed by the likes of Jan Oblak and De Gea. I don't particularly see any reason why it is assumed that a goalkeeper can't adapt to playing in a more proactive system, and to me there seems to be a whole overestimation of the different styles of play when it suits the argument. Goalkeepers have evolved drastically in the past few decades but their scope of play is still the most limited of all football positions.

      As for Klopp's previous choices, I have no idea who was his goalkeeper in Mainz, but I have never particularly looked at Weidenfeller as a proactive sweeper keeper, and it did take him over 2 years to send Mignolet to the bench. So I don't know what that says about his preferences to be honest (unless Weidenfeller was in fact a different player than I seem to recall). If rumours are to be believed anyway, he's actually looking for someone better than Karius...
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      Re: General Transfer rumours/gossip thread
      Reply #35946: Jun 20, 2018 11:31:24 pm
      Correct, the player or his representative has to  go to La Liga office and deposit the entire release clause, they give him his release and pay the money to the club.

      With that being the case then, it's never going to happen. If we could structure a deal like other transfers I think it's possible but no way would Atletico accept that.
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      Re: General Transfer rumours/gossip thread
      Reply #35947: Jun 20, 2018 11:52:00 pm
      Thanks for sharing, that's really interesting and I'm curious to read more.

      But I'm looking at this and I'm seeing some very simple descriptive statistics displayed in a smart fashion, but not exactly what I'd call advanced stats? I mean, % of clean sheets is hardly even a measure of goalkeeper performance but more of the team as a whole. I guess the ones that might be more advanced are the likes of Shot Diff and Distribution Quality so I'd definitely be curious to understand those.

      I'm not convinced by your argument that Karius is "better" in "every other aspect" though. You cast doubts over Oblak's shot stopping abilities by hinting that those may not be "him" but "the system he plays", however you don't seem to apply the same logic to Karius. If you're asked to play with a higher line and come to collect/punch the ball or clear the line in more advanced positions, then you're bound to have higher numbers in those - and a higher success rate - than if you're not generally asked to do so, but may only come forward when your system has failed and you have to come up in riskier situations as a last resort.

      Stuff like counting the number of punches and then dividing it by 90 minutes is hardly advanced statistics, and it seems to me to be *much* more reflective of a team's tactics than a consistent overperformance in shot stopping ability as displayed by the likes of Jan Oblak and De Gea. I don't particularly see any reason why it is assumed that a goalkeeper can't adapt to playing in a more proactive system, and to me there seems to be a whole overestimation of the different styles of play when it suits the argument. Goalkeepers have evolved drastically in the past few decades but their scope of play is still the most limited of all football positions.

      As for Klopp's previous choices, I have no idea who was his goalkeeper in Mainz, but I have never particularly looked at Weidenfeller as a proactive sweeper keeper, and it did take him over 2 years to send Mignolet to the bench. So I don't know what that says about his preferences to be honest (unless Weidenfeller was in fact a different player than I seem to recall). If rumours are to be believed anyway, he's actually looking for someone better than Karius...
      I don’t know if rumors are to be believed because at this point we are supposedly interested in a new keeper every day. I still think he will replace Mignolet and keep Karius.
      Danzel
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      Re: General Transfer rumours/gossip thread
      Reply #35948: Jun 20, 2018 11:59:57 pm
      Thanks for sharing, that's really interesting and I'm curious to read more.

      But I'm looking at this and I'm seeing some very simple descriptive statistics displayed in a smart fashion, but not exactly what I'd call advanced stats? I mean, % of clean sheets is hardly even a measure of goalkeeper performance but more of the team as a whole. I guess the ones that might be more advanced are the likes of Shot Diff and Distribution Quality so I'd definitely be curious to understand those.

      I'm not convinced by your argument that Karius is "better" in "every other aspect" though. You cast doubts over Oblak's shot stopping abilities by hinting that those may not be "him" but "the system he plays", however you don't seem to apply the same logic to Karius. If you're asked to play with a higher line and come to collect/punch the ball or clear the line in more advanced positions, then you're bound to have higher numbers in those - and a higher success rate - than if you're not generally asked to do so, but may only come forward when your system has failed and you have to come up in riskier situations as a last resort.

      Stuff like counting the number of punches and then dividing it by 90 minutes is hardly advanced statistics, and it seems to me to be *much* more reflective of a team's tactics than a consistent overperformance in shot stopping ability as displayed by the likes of Jan Oblak and De Gea. I don't particularly see any reason why it is assumed that a goalkeeper can't adapt to playing in a more proactive system, and to me there seems to be a whole overestimation of the different styles of play when it suits the argument. Goalkeepers have evolved drastically in the past few decades but their scope of play is still the most limited of all football positions.

      As for Klopp's previous choices, I have no idea who was his goalkeeper in Mainz, but I have never particularly looked at Weidenfeller as a proactive sweeper keeper, and it did take him over 2 years to send Mignolet to the bench. So I don't know what that says about his preferences to be honest (unless Weidenfeller was in fact a different player than I seem to recall). If rumours are to be believed anyway, he's actually looking for someone better than Karius...

      A lot of statistics, no matter for which position, are down to how a team plays and tactics in general. Salah's stats for us are amazing and of course down to individual quality, but also down to the way we set up as a team and play to his strenghts. Same for some of Karius' statistics and Oblak's, both teams play a certain style of football that favours their goalkeepers qualities. Fully agree with that. People on here were comparing goalkeepers solely based on save%, so I'd say these charts are more 'advanced' than just counting the amount of shots a goalkeeper saves. Right now this is the best we have at comparing goalkeepers (on the basis of statistics), I think.

      The advanced ones are shot difficulty, which, if I recall correctly, was partly measured by the xG (expected goals) statistic which takes into account the position of the shot, angle of the shot, how hard it was hit, where it ends up etc. Another important one is the aggression% (how often does a goalkeeper come out for high balls, intercepts through balls etc,...) and the parried safe%. As you can see, due to the system Atletico plays, Oblak is a very passive goalkeeper. Not saying he can't be pro-active, but all he really has to do is save shots (which he does at world class level, of course).

      Contrary to popular belief, Karius parries shots to safe areas more often than the average goalkeeper. People only remember the times he didn't (Dezko's goal for example).

      Not saying goalkeepers wouldn't be able to adapt. Take Mignolet for example, his save% at Sunderland was 76%, that's Pope / De Gea numbers this season. At Liverpool that drops to 59%. Mignolet didn't become a worse shot stopper, he just was exposed by the way we set up, he's not a sweeper keeper and he just couldn't adapt. I'm not saying Oblak for example wouldn't be able to adapt, but odds are that he can't. At Atletico he apparently (according to the xG stats / shot difficulty stats) faced the easiest shots difficulty in Europe playing behind their defensive unit with half the shots he faced coming from outside the box. Of course his save% is very, very high.

      I'm not against getting  a new goalkeeper to compete with Karius, just trying to show to people that he isn't nearly as bad or average, when compared to other goalkeepers, as people make him out to be.

      Oh to have those save % and catches.

      As explained in the paragraph above, Oblak gets to pad his numbers because half the shots he faces are from outside the box. Karius only faces 30% of his shots from outside the box. Also compare the shot difficulty difference, Karius faces far more difficult shots than Oblak does.

      With regards to the catches, you have to look at the aggression% (I think), Oblak rarely comes out to catch a ball, according to the numbers only 5-6% of the time, compared to Karius' 15% (again, it depends on the system their team plays). Oblak tries to catch far less, so the odds of him failing to do so or having to punch, are far lower than for Karius. Oblak only comes when he is 100% sure and the defence in front of him, in general, just requires him to come for far less crosses than Karius. His number of catches will likely still be higher than Karius 'if he would come more often, just down to how tall he is and his reach etc, but both his save% and catches would drop considerably when playing for a team like us, City, Barcelona etc.

      Just to make sure, these are not my observations and I didn't come up with the numbers, I do agree with them though.
      « Last Edit: Jun 21, 2018 12:04:27 am by Danzel »

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