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      General LFC Transfer rumours/gossip thread

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      shawspeed
      • Forum Ronnie Moran
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      Re: General LFC Transfer rumours/gossip thread
      Reply #43650: Jan 12, 2021 03:52:12 pm
      What costs do you think have dropped?

      @Swab - where are your figures from? I've seen reports it's more like £100m in revenue loss.



      I don't think, it's pretty obvious, matchday staff costs, matchday catering supply costs, policing costs, cleaning costs, untility costs, insurance costs etc etc
      shawspeed
      • Forum Ronnie Moran
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      Re: General LFC Transfer rumours/gossip thread
      Reply #43651: Jan 12, 2021 03:57:07 pm
      It's a revenue forecast, costs are accounted for in it.

      And there was me thinking revenue was the income derived from sales etc.

      So a forecast reduction of £40million profit then?

      What round of the Champions League have they forecast us reaching and will we win the premier league again this season?
      CT_LFC
      • Forum Legend - Fagan
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      Re: General LFC Transfer rumours/gossip thread
      Reply #43652: Jan 12, 2021 04:05:27 pm
      It's a revenue forecast, costs are accounted for in it.

      revenue and expenses are different things. So is the 40M you mentioned a profit loss estimate, then?
      bmck
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      • YNWA
      Re: General LFC Transfer rumours/gossip thread
      Reply #43653: Jan 12, 2021 04:05:29 pm
      Could even look for a loan. Don't need another VVD. Or a Koulibaly. Just someone who's better than Rhys/Nat. The worlds a big place, am still hopeful...
      Swab
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
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      Re: General LFC Transfer rumours/gossip thread
      Reply #43654: Jan 12, 2021 04:09:09 pm
      And there was me thinking revenue was the income derived from sales etc.

      So a forecast reduction of £40million profit then?

      What round of the Champions League have they forecast us reaching and will we win the premier league again this season?

      revenue stream.

      My god, it's not f**king rocket science.
      Swab
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
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      • 13,080 posts | 3224 
      Re: General LFC Transfer rumours/gossip thread
      Reply #43655: Jan 12, 2021 04:09:48 pm
      Could even look for a loan. Don't need another VVD. Or a Koulibaly. Just someone who's better than Rhys/Nat. The worlds a big place, am still hopeful...

      Could get another interest free FSG loan ;)
      Swab
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
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      • 13,080 posts | 3224 
      Re: General LFC Transfer rumours/gossip thread
      Reply #43656: Jan 12, 2021 04:10:54 pm
      revenue and expenses are different things. So is the 40M you mentioned a profit loss estimate, then?

      No, again, it's the forecast revenue stream, which already takes expenses into account.
      shawspeed
      • Forum Ronnie Moran
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      Re: General LFC Transfer rumours/gossip thread
      Reply #43657: Jan 12, 2021 04:17:24 pm
      No, again, it's the forecast revenue stream, which already takes expenses into account.

      This is not making any sense, if it takes revenue (income) and expenses (costs) into account then surely the difference between one and the other is gross profit?
      FL Red
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      Re: General LFC Transfer rumours/gossip thread
      Reply #43658: Jan 12, 2021 04:26:18 pm
      It's a revenue forecast, costs are accounted for in it.

      No they aren’t. Revenue is income in the most simple sense. Profit is what takes costs and revenue into account.

      And if you don’t believe me (which you won’t)

      Revenue is the income generated from normal business operations and includes discounts and deductions for returned merchandise. It is the top line or gross income figure from which costs are subtracted to determine net income.Oct 1, 2020
      Investopedia › terms › revenue
      Revenue Definition - Investopedia
      Swab
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
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      • 13,080 posts | 3224 
      Re: General LFC Transfer rumours/gossip thread
      Reply #43659: Jan 12, 2021 04:27:58 pm
      This is not making any sense, if it takes revenue (income) and expenses (costs) into account then surely the difference between one and the other is gross profit?

      It makes perfect sense if you understand what the word "streams" means.

      It's not a P/L, it's not a balance sheet, it's not a full set of signed off, complete and certified accounts, it is a forecast estimate of how revenue streams have been affected by covid.

      This is really simple stuff, with the key word here, being "streams".


      shawspeed
      • Forum Ronnie Moran
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      Re: General LFC Transfer rumours/gossip thread
      Reply #43660: Jan 12, 2021 04:35:45 pm
      It makes perfect sense if you understand what the word "streams" means.

      It's not a P/L, it's not a balance sheet, it's not a full set of signed off, complete and certified accounts, it is a forecast estimate of how revenue streams have been affected by covid.

      This is really simple stuff, with the key word here, being "streams".




      Please enlighten us as it seems quite a lot of people myself includedare obviously very simple and not rocket scientists.

      What exactly does stream refer to in this instance? what position in the PL has been used to prduce the stream, what CL round do we get to?, how many matches will be televised? what players will we be selling in January and the summer?
      Swab
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
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      Re: General LFC Transfer rumours/gossip thread
      Reply #43661: Jan 12, 2021 04:40:39 pm
      Please enlighten us as it seems quite a lot of people myself includedare obviously very simple and not rocket scientists.

      What exactly does stream refer to in this instance? what position in the PL has been used to prduce the stream, what CL round do we get to?, how many matches will be televised? what players will we be selling in January and the summer?

      P/L = profit and loss.

      It's not official, as repeatedly f**king stated, it's a forecast estimate by KPMG (the accountancy firm) after looking at a number of clubs across Europe.

      I've got better things to do than walk people through a forecast estimate, so if you want to know more, crack on and do it yourself.

      Or take an accountancy degree, join KPMG and ask their methodology.

      Either way, I'm out.
      No time for pedeants who think wumming is clever.

      Tayls
      • Forum Legend - Dalglish
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      Re: General LFC Transfer rumours/gossip thread
      Reply #43662: Jan 12, 2021 04:47:28 pm
      Have to agree with FL here Swab, revenue streams, in this context and as far as I understand them, do not account for expenditure. I get what you're saying about the forecast estimate by KPMG having read the report on their website, but that still does not account for costings, as one of the footnotes on the report says. We've not released the detailed financial information yet, so as I understand it KPMG are estimating our loss of revenue, due the loss of various 'streams' of revenue (matchday income, broadcasting rebate etc.).

      With that said, in reference to what shawspeed has posted about in regards to costs equalling loss of revenue, I don't think this is possible. Any potential costs cut through loss of matchday staff, or policing, are going to be nowhere near the total loss in revenue. We will still be paying people to upkeep the stadium, and although maybe we save some money by not providing catering services for example, that is never going to outweigh the lost income from matchday sales, tickets etc.

      shawspeed
      • Forum Ronnie Moran
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      • 398 posts | 72 
      Re: General LFC Transfer rumours/gossip thread
      Reply #43663: Jan 12, 2021 04:50:22 pm
      P/L = profit and loss.

      It's not official, as repeatedly f**king stated, it's a forecast estimate by KPMG (the accountancy firm) after looking at a number of clubs across Europe.

      I've got better things to do than walk people through a forecast estimate, so if you want to know more, crack on and do it yourself.

      Or take an accountancy degree, join KPMG and ask their methodology.

      Either way, I'm out.
      No time for pedeants who think wumming is clever.



      Of course it's a forecast what else could it be.

      I have no need to look up what forecasts are I produce them daily for multi million pound construction projects.

      What I am questioning is what that forecast includes, what is forecast to be reduced by £40 million?

      You are saying that is is a revenue forecast which includes forecast costs therefore at the end of this season we are forecast to have £40 million less than last season.

      So if it's revenue including cost then it therefore relates to £40 million less gross profit.

      So in essence it forecasts a small profit at the end of this season.

      I am still intrigued as to what basis they have guessed the income will be as it must be based on forecasted final league position, champions league results, when supporters will be allowed at Anfield agin etc etc
      shawspeed
      • Forum Ronnie Moran
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      • 398 posts | 72 
      Re: General LFC Transfer rumours/gossip thread
      Reply #43664: Jan 12, 2021 04:52:46 pm
      Have to agree with FL here Swab, revenue streams, in this context and as far as I understand them, do not account for expenditure. I get what you're saying about the forecast estimate by KPMG having read the report on their website, but that still does not account for costings, as one of the footnotes on the report says. We've not released the detailed financial information yet, so as I understand it KPMG are estimating our loss of revenue, due the loss of various 'streams' of revenue (matchday income, broadcasting rebate etc.).

      With that said, in reference to what shawspeed has posted about in regards to costs equalling loss of revenue, I don't think this is possible. Any potential costs cut through loss of matchday staff, or policing, are going to be nowhere near the total loss in revenue. We will still be paying people to upkeep the stadium, and although maybe we save some money by not providing catering services for example, that is never going to outweigh the lost income from matchday sales, tickets etc.



      I totally agree that reduction in costs will nowhere near cover the lost revenue however it will offset a part of it and to be honest given the amount of zero's used when any football finances are quoted 40 million is a relatively small number.

      BTW at no time did I say reduction in costs would equal lost revenue.
      Swab
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
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      Re: General LFC Transfer rumours/gossip thread
      Reply #43665: Jan 12, 2021 05:00:11 pm
      Have to agree with FL here Swab, revenue streams, in this context and as far as I understand them, do not account for expenditure. I get what you're saying about the forecast estimate by KPMG having read the report on their website, but that still does not account for costings, as one of the footnotes on the report says. We've not released the detailed financial information yet, so as I understand it KPMG are estimating our loss of revenue, due the loss of various 'streams' of revenue (matchday income, broadcasting rebate etc.).

      With that said, in reference to what shawspeed has posted about in regards to costs equalling loss of revenue, I don't think this is possible. Any potential costs cut through loss of matchday staff, or policing, are going to be nowhere near the total loss in revenue. We will still be paying people to upkeep the stadium, and although maybe we save some money by not providing catering services for example, that is never going to outweigh the lost income from matchday sales, tickets etc.

      Every single time we've done revenue stream forecasts, for 40 years, they have included estimated expenditure as well as estimated income.
      Every time.

      Otherwise, it's just a revenue forecast, an entirely different thing.

      Look you lot can try and pick the bones out of it if you want, I don't really give a f**k.

      Every man and his dog know we're taking a financial hit compared to non covid times, and that it will impact transfers, and possibly wages.
      If you want to perform an autopsy or (others) try to engage in puerile nonsense, crack on.
      It's not worth my time or effort.

      A simple point turns into a f**king major exercise because some daft tw*ts want to know the ins and outs of a ducks arse.

      Have fun.

      (BTW Tayls, not aimed at you)
      CT_LFC
      • Forum Legend - Fagan
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      Re: General LFC Transfer rumours/gossip thread
      Reply #43666: Jan 12, 2021 05:04:50 pm
      Why are you mad at us when you're the one not knowing the difference between revenue, cost and profit?
      shawspeed
      • Forum Ronnie Moran
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      Re: General LFC Transfer rumours/gossip thread
      Reply #43667: Jan 12, 2021 05:07:03 pm
      Why are you mad at us when you're the one not knowing the difference between revenue, cost and profit?

      Best leave it, there's some condescending tw*ts on here who would rather abuse people than explain. BTW not aimed at you CT.
      ruthcity
      • Forum Legend - Dalglish
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      Re: General LFC Transfer rumours/gossip thread
      Reply #43668: Jan 12, 2021 05:10:01 pm
      No they aren’t. Revenue is income in the most simple sense. Profit is what takes costs and revenue into account.

      And if you don’t believe me (which you won’t)

      Revenue is the income generated from normal business operations and includes discounts and deductions for returned merchandise. It is the top line or gross income figure from which costs are subtracted to determine net income.Oct 1, 2020
      Investopedia › terms › revenue
      Revenue Definition - Investopedia

      To be more specific, revenue from sports teams or businesses typically originate from three major sources:
      1) matchday (or race day for F1)
      2) broadcast revenue
      3) sponsorships

      These are streams of revenue you earn. Covid has led to loss of revenue especially from matchday. It’s not exactly revenue going negative but loss of revenue collection.

      The club still has to pay salaries and other operational costs (albeit some savings from scaled down operations). This could result in lower net profit or in the worst case, net losses (negative profit for some people’s understanding).

      The football money league report usually deals with revenue. Because nobody can get the clubs’ salaries right, and profit and loss from player sales, it’s a tall order to estimate net profit reasonably. But you can calculate a ballpark estimate of matchday, broadcast and sponsorship revenue with publicly available information (shirt deals, TV deals, stadium capacity and average ticket prices etc.)

      I’ve some knowledge on the sports business which is why I’m sharing. And pardon me when I say a player is too expensive or a deal is good (like acquiring for free and selling for a profit or taking Coutinho back on a free) because it is this financial aspect is where I’m coming from, unlike those of us who need to “buy a particular player at all costs”.
      rossyred
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      Re: General LFC Transfer rumours/gossip thread
      Reply #43669: Jan 12, 2021 05:17:44 pm
      The oracle is out again I see spouting the same sanctimonious  sh*te
      CT_LFC
      • Forum Legend - Fagan
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      Re: General LFC Transfer rumours/gossip thread
      Reply #43670: Jan 12, 2021 05:38:07 pm
      Does LFC publish a statement of cash flows? Because ultimately cash is what really matters.
      ruthcity
      • Forum Legend - Dalglish
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      Re: General LFC Transfer rumours/gossip thread
      Reply #43671: Jan 12, 2021 05:41:58 pm
      Does LFC publish a statement of cash flows? Because ultimately cash is what really matters.

      https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/00035668/filing-history

      Select the filing dated 4 March 2020.
      CT_LFC
      • Forum Legend - Fagan
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      Re: General LFC Transfer rumours/gossip thread
      Reply #43672: Jan 12, 2021 05:51:29 pm

      Good stuff. Their FCF was >100% of their reported income, always good to see and shows they are managing the business well, but 37M is not a lot of cash when you have so many fixed expenses and not getting any money in from attendance.
      FATKOPITE10
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      • Liverpool fc give me tourettes
      Re: General LFC Transfer rumours/gossip thread
      Reply #43673: Jan 12, 2021 06:41:45 pm
      Popped in to see what was happening on this thread  but reading this then won't be hanging around
      Don77
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      Re: General LFC Transfer rumours/gossip thread
      Reply #43674: Jan 12, 2021 08:07:55 pm
      Fabinho and Williams could go down long term and he wouldn't sign anyone. Just play hendo and philips at the back no doubt.

      We arnt signing anyone ...

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