Paul Tomkins: I Hate Rodgers (Clearly)

Of late a few people have accused me of being anti-Rodgers; even going so far as to say that I hate him. Even remarking on Twitter a few weeks ago about Jupp Heynckes being a free agent this summer despite possibly leading Bayern to a remarkable treble was translated as “advocating that he replaces Rodgers”.

No, it was pointing out that a brilliant manager, who, if he decides against retiring, will be free after a quite remarkable season.

The Heynckes debate got me thinking. In truth, how can I tell the difference between Rodgers and Heynckes? They are different managers at different stages of their careers in different countries who have faced different situations, and most of their weekly work is done behind closed doors. Even if they had identical talents and approaches, they are using different sets of players (and in Bayern’s case, a far better set).



Like all other managers they have their own philosophies, and tactics, but it’s what each does with them that counts. Managers are judged on results because everything else seems rather abstract. “He’s a good man-manager”. Well, does it show in the results? “He’s a good tactician.” Well, does it show in the results? “He’s had 35 years experience.” Well, does it show in the results?

You have to put those results into context, but that’s the hard bit; that when it starts getting subjective.

People seem to mistake my ambivalence over Rodgers for negativity. I still haven’t formed a solid opinion on the current Liverpool manager. Some things he does I am genuinely impressed with. Others leave me nonplussed. Of course, I don’t think we should have to understand a manager’s ideas. I don’t understand medical science, after all; I just expect my doctor to know his stuff, and to get results.

So far, Rodgers’ overall results are worse than last season’s. He’s won 23 from 52 games (44%), when last season Liverpool won 24 from 51 (47%). Liverpool’s cup games, bar this season’s tie against Udinese, were clearly more difficult on the whole last year: City (twice), United, Chelsea (twice) and Everton. Equally, Liverpool have marginally improved in the league, and are scoring more goals overall. If you label this a transitional season, then it it’s hard to call it a failure. But then it depends what the targets are during a transition.

Hand on heart, if you told me that Rodgers would definitely be Liverpool boss next season, I’d be fine with that. And if you told me that he was to be replaced by someone of Heynckes’ calibre (if not necessarily Heynckes, who is 67 and speaks no English), I’d be fine with that. I am neither convinced that Rodgers is the right man nor that he’s the wrong man.

It probably took me six months to fully click with Rafa Benítez (at which point I became convinced he had something special) and about three games with Roy Hodgson (at which point I would rather poke my own eyes out than watch his football again). With Rodgers I vacillate, and in many ways that’s my problem, not his.

I get plenty of tweets telling me Rodgers is “sh*t”, or worse. But I don’t understand the antipathy. People have decided that because he brought a certain level of success to Swansea, that means that mid-table is his level. To me, his achievements in Wales proves he did a fine job, and indicate that he’s a good manager.

I don’t think Rodgers is mediocre,  or worse, as so many like to tell me. But he is still, in many ways, unproven.

As things stand, proof of Rodgers’ qualities only stretches so far. He has no trophies, and he’s never tasted the top six of the Premier League. My problem is that, almost a season into his Liverpool tenure, I’m no clearer as to his true level. I’m pretty sure that he’s better than his critics suggest, but equally, I don’t know how brilliant he is.

Liverpool have been breathtaking at times this season, but also have a dreadful record in the ‘bigger’ games. The XI is far better now than a year ago, especially with injuries meaning that Spearing and Adam were the two most frequent central midfield starters in 2011/12, and Suarez scored one goal in five months from the day of the Evra incident, only returning to form once his ban was out of the way. With worse players, and greater distractions, the team of Dalglish and Clarke got better results.

Since January Coutinho and Sturridge have added new dimensions, and a true cutting edge – both have a good amount of goals and assists – although Liverpool have also started drawing blanks (and drawing games) in recent weeks.

While I’m all for focusing on getting back into the top four at the expense of cups (in that my belief is that the Champions League is a virtuous cycle, attracting and paying for better players so that you can compete in all competitions), so far Liverpool have swapped cup success for one place in the league table.

Liverpool are now much better at home – a major problem last season – but only marginally better off in the league table. And yet you could quite legitimately, argue that Rodgers is starting a project; in which case you say that instant success is not to be expected.

Success

Most successful managers at the top end of the ‘modern era’ Premier League have certain traits, certain achievements under their belts.

Two things that stick out are, a) previous notable success, and b) doing something remarkable in terms of impact in their first year. Most can boast one or the other, and some can boast both. There’s also a third factor, which I will come to later.

First, prior success. Before arriving in England:

Ferguson had Aberdeen, where he broke up the Rangers/Celtic duopoly with two league titles and four domestic cups, and won a European trophy.
Wenger had Monaco, where he won the league, the cup and took the French team to the latter stages of the Champions League.
Ancelotti had two Champions Leagues, a Serie A title and an Italian cup.
Benítez broke up the Barcelona/Real Madrid duopoly with two league titles in three seasons, and won the Uefa Cup.
Roberto Mancini had three Italian league titles with Inter and had won the Italian cup with three different clubs.
Jose Mourinho had two league titles, the Portuguese Cup, the Uefa Cup and the Champions League.
And while he’s not quite up to the same standard, Gérard Houllier won the title with PSG.
The same applies to Claudio Ranieri, who is below the standard of the other managers in terms of trophies (he’s never won a league title), but he had won cups with Fiorentina and Valencia.
I believe that these are all of the managers to finish in the top two (having managed the whole season) since Wenger’s first full season in 1997/98. That’s fifteen years of top two spots limited to eight managers.

All of these successes were achieved with different circumstances and different resources. Therefore they are not easily compared with one another. Perhaps weaker managers could have matched some of their achievements, given the budgets some had to work with. Still, they in the record books all the same.

Some subsequent “failures” arrived with good CVs, too. Andre Villas-Boas at Chelsea, and at the same club, Phil Scolari. Previous success is clearly no guarantee, although neither of those were given full seasons. But does it help with future success? With all of the best jobs going to men with impressive records, it’s hard to know how the likes of Rodgers would do across a larger sample size. It’s a bit chicken and egg: do they not get the jobs because they are not good enough, or do we never get to know if they are good enough because they never get the jobs?

What’s also true is that some of those managers achieved their first home-country success “out of nowhere”. Benítez, Mourinho and Villas-Boas were given jobs at Valencia and Porto based on potential. Their previous records, and their ages, when racking up those home-league successes were not so different to Rodgers’ in the summer of 2012. They were appointed because someone saw something in them. All three won the title in their first season, although in the case of Porto, they often win the league.

Di Matteo, who joins the list of eight by virtue of his Champions League success, had no great credentials (he was similar to Rodgers in getting a smaller club promoted) but did something incredible in his first season, even if he took over when some of the hard work had already been done (it was March, after all).

Mourinho also did something incredible in his first season at Chelsea: winning the title with a record 95 points (plus the League Cup). Ancelotti did something incredible: winning the double, with his team scoring a phenomenal 103 Premier League goals. Benítez did something incredible: winning the Champions League against all odds with a side containing players like Djimi Traore and Milan Baros (and he also took a young team to a second final). In Wenger’s first full season (1997/98), he led them to the double, playing some of the best football England had ever seen. Admittedly Alex Ferguson didn’t do something incredible in his first full season (1987/88), although he did take them to their best finish for almost a decade (2nd, with their last appearance in the top two in 1979/80) before falling away for a couple of seasons. And it may be a stretch to include Mancini’s FA Cup in his first full season (2010/11), but it was their first trophy in decades, and that can be a mental hurdle to overcome. Clearly the investment in players was behind much of their improvement, as it had been with Chelsea, but Mancini instantly put a trophy on the table on top of Champions League qualification.

So seven of the nine made significant first season impacts in England, either in the league, the Champions League (or both), and with one landing the FA Cup. Of the two exceptions, Gérard Houllier, did partially improve Liverpool in his first season in sole charge, but not to any remarkable level, and Ranieri, who didn’t make much of an impact until his final season. Houllier second full season, 2000/01, was his most memorable, with a fairly remarkable treble.

(Note: Ferguson, Wenger, Houllier, Mancini, Ranieri and Di Matteo all took charge midway through a season. Only Di Matteo made a significant impact in this initial part-season, and perhaps starting your first full season after a few months getting to the know the club and the players is helpful. Of course, Rodgers’ replacement at Swansea – Michael Laudrup – also did something remarkable, based on their resources and history, in landing the club its first-ever trophy. For context, he was building on the good work of Rodgers, who got them promoted, but then Rodgers was also building on the good work of others.)

The third factor is ‘player cachet’. This is perhaps the least important, but having played at a massive club, and having represented a major international nation on many occasions, can surely help a young manager acclimatise to the pressures and expectations of clubs where success is expected (with the expected success often out of keeping with reality). Of the eight managers discussed, only three had that level of cachet: Ancelotti, Mancini and Di Matteo (all Italian internationals, incidentally, but none world-class, averaging about 30 appearances apiece).

In recent times we’ve become accustomed to “non players” like Mourinho, Villas-Boas and Benítez landing top jobs. Like Rodgers, these are men who spent their 20s studying the sport in great detail, at a stage when a lot of players were just thinking of their own game. With Wenger and Ferguson also far from great players, but having played in their country’s top division, clearly we now accept that having been a big name player is not essential in the modern age.

However, a lot of big-name ex-players are amongst the most successful young coaches this season: Antonio Conte has just led Juve to another title, having played 419 league games for the Old Lady. (In his first year in charge he won the Serie A title, having been appointed on the back of Siena finishing runners-up in Serie B). In each of his three seasons as Ajax boss to date (his first managerial job), Frank de Boer won the league title. No-one needs reminding of Pep Guardiola’s credentials, and of course, at the other end of the spectrum, Jupp Heynckes, now 67, played many times for West Germany. On top of these, Ancelotti is cleaning up in France, albeit with riches. In Italy, Vincenzo Montella is making waves with Fiorentina.

Of course, most of these are big clubs, used to success, or laden with new money. Perhaps Jürgen Klopp is the standout, as someone who wasn’t an international footballer. He did play hundreds of league games, but at lower levels. He is the obvious model for Rodgers, with Dortmund the obvious model for Liverpool.

Even Klopp did something remarkable in his first year at Dortmund: virtually doubling their points tally in lifting them from 13th to 6th. So that seems clear.

But then they only moved up to 5th the next season, and perhaps what we’re seeing with Rodgers is that stage of Klopp’s team development. But as with all of these examples, the situations are different, so nothing can ever be certain.

A worry with Rodgers would be that the first season is a good chance to excite and inspire your players, and your fan-base. I don’t think Rodgers has succeeded in that sense, although unlike Hodgson, for example, he hasn’t terrified those who watch the Reds.

Clearly being an ex-player isn’t essential (Mourinho, Villas-Boas, Benítez). Clearly you don’t have to make a significant impact in your first season, although of the nine singled out as top-two finishers and/or Champions League winners, only two (Houllier and Ranieri) failed to pull up any trees in his inaugural full campaign, and both of those managers are good rather than great. You don’t have to have had previous top-level success, as Di Matteo showed.

But out of the three categories (which you might find random, but I think have some validity), seven of the nine have ticks in two of the three columns, and Mancini and Ancelotti tick all three.

Rodgers, alas, has none. He has no notable prior success at the sharp end of a top league as a manager; he has not made a significant impact in his first season (fractionally better in the league, worse in the cups); and he was never a player.

This is not to say that he has no skill, no talent, no potential. What he achieved at Swansea was very commendable, although if we laud managers who gain promotion as greats, we need to talk about Steve Bruce, Neil Warnock, Phil Brown, John Gorman, George Burley and assorted other mediocre managers.

Of the managers to finish in the top four this millennium, but not get any higher than third, there’s been "The Chosen One", Bobby Robson, David O’Leary and a cluster of Chelsea managers. A fairly mixed bunch, although none of those, bar the Chelsea ones, have come since 2005. Clearly it’s getting tighter at the top, with Spurs now a better side (based on selling well and reinvesting smartly), and Manchester City’s wealth making them shoo-ins for the top four. Perhaps it is this group of managers against whom Rodgers should be judged. However, without oligarchs and sheiks as owners, Liverpool need to rely on their manager’s wits.

Some of the Reds’ attacking play this season has been excellent, with the goals scored and the number of clean sheets kept both impressive. The problem has been that a lot of the goals have proved fairly meaningless (some big wins that served only to boost goal difference), and when the Reds haven’t kept a clean sheet they’ve tended to concede two or more.

Of course, there almost certainly wasn’t scope to storm the top four anyway this season; it was an outside chance at best. And not being an ex-great hasn’t hampered other managers.

I guess my uncertainty – and uncertain is what I am about Rodgers, rather than decided either way – stems from the fact that the cachet he lacked from not being an ex-player and not being a title-winning coach in a major league has not been redressed by anything remarkable this season.

No remarkable improvement in the points tally.

No remarkable cup exploits.

No remarkable victories against the odds or biggest sides, with a home win against Spurs the most celebrated result. (One win in fourteen games against the other seven teams in the top eight.)

Some excellent performances, particularly in a spell of home games against poorer sides, but nothing out of the ordinary when the heat was on. Nothing to scream that Rodgers is the future, just as there’s nothing to scream Rodgers is the past.

Rodgers has had to deal with far fewer injuries (for which he and his medical team deserve credit); he’s spent c£40m net but lost Maxi, Bellamy and Kuyt; and he did not (until bitegate when the season was all but done) have a massive Suarez sideshow; nor did he have two runs to cup finals to detract from league form. However, unlike Dalglish, who had 14 years, plus 18 league games at the end of 2010/11, he has had to get used to Liverpool FC. I also don’t think Being: Liverpool helped his bedding-in period or his credibility.

So comparing with last season is fraught with pitfalls due to radically different scenarios, albeit many of which arguably favour Rodgers.

We all think that building a great side takes time, and it does.  And perhaps what Rodgers is doing is building a great side (although until the future, who knows?). But there’s also that crucial initial impact, when fresh ideas fire the players with enthusiasm. That hasn’t quite happened, at least in terms of results.

On the plus side, Rodgers seems to have a certain level of respect from his players. He’s a good man-manager, so they like him. He has bright ideas, such as enlisting the help of Dr Steve Peters. But do the players believe he can lead them to glory? Hopefully they do, but they are having to take a leap of faith, just like a lot of the fans.

Future

I don’t believe in chopping and changing managers. Equally, I don’t think you stick with a manager for the sake of it. If there’s someone better out there, you have to consider it. It doesn’t mean you have to make that move. It’s the same with players: if someone better is available, wants to come and you can afford him, you make the move. Changing manager is obviously more disruptive than replacing a full-back, but if you have a consistent vision at the club, and don’t chop and change between incompatible football philosophies, then it needn’t be disastrous. And it’s not like Rodgers is the only manager in Europe whose team can pass a football.

Can Liverpool attract the best players? Obviously the very top tier are hard to procure, but it’s still a special club in the eyes of the world. Both Suarez and Coutinho agreed to join, as did Sahin, although he left distinctly unimpressed with Rodgers (although he didn’t appear too eager to do all he could to impress).

You could argue, however, that a big-name manager would help matters. It’s not necessarily Rodgers’ fault that he’s not yet a star manager, but are players eager to come and play for him? Or is the club’s fame on its own still enough of a draw? I don’t think Liverpool should stick with Rodgers simply because no-one better would say yes. (There are good arguments that can be made for keeping Rodgers, but I’m not sure this is one of them.)

The way I look at it, if you’re a top manager, would you be put off joining Real Madrid, Barcelona, Juventus, AC Milan, Ajax or Bayern Munich if they were 7th in the table?  Do you still think it would be great to manage Brazil, even though these days they’re ranked 19th in the world right now?

Liverpool still has the magic of a great name and still has those five European Cups, dozens of other trophies, 18 league titles and the most famous stand in the world. Clubs that have been in European finals over many different decades have an aura about them. Liverpool remains such a club. It’s had a difficult few years, and miracles should not be expected. But mediocrity (if that’s what this season has been) should not be easily accepted, either.

Part of me feels that if Rodgers goes out and replaces Carragher, Downing and Enrique with three better players for the XI, this team could really click into gear. And another part of me remains unsure about his killer instinct. Is he a winner? I think he has a pleasing edge to him, in that he can seem a bit steely. But I need more proof.

Whatever happens, next season needs to be better. If you want to write this off as a transitional season, then who am I to argue? But next season needs a proper challenge for the top four, even if the Reds fall narrowly short. The good news is that summer always brings fresh optimism, and unless FSG bring back Roy Hodgson, I’m already looking forward to next season, whoever is in charge.

By Paul Tomkins

http://tomkinstimes.com/2013/05/i-hate-rodgers-clearly/

Read that yesterday Shabs and pretty much sums up where I am with Brendan although at times I think I've been even a little more negative to the manager than Tomkins has.

Big summer and season ahead for the boss.

The one bit of proof (for me at least) that Rodgers has a bit of steel and some balls is in the way he reacted to Cameron after Bitegate. It takes a big pair to challenge the Prime Minister on his opinion.

Whether that bit of balls equates to unquenchable desire for victory we don't know yet. But he definitely showed some glimpses of kahoonas on that one.

Part of me feels that if Rodgers goes out and replaces Carragher, Downing and Enrique with three better players for the XI, this team could really click into gear. And another part of me remains unsure about his killer instinct. Is he a winner? I think he has a pleasing edge to him, in that he can seem a bit steely. But I need more proof.

Whatever happens, next season needs to be better. If you want to write this off as a transitional season, then who am I to argue? But next season needs a proper challenge for the top four, even if the Reds fall narrowly short. The good news is that summer always brings fresh optimism, and unless FSG bring back Roy Hodgson, I’m already looking forward to next season, whoever is in charge.

As if this is a matter of him and not a matter of money. I personally am pleased with Rodgers, he has done some decent transfers with limited funds. He has made the team play decent modern football, got the balls to drop Caroll who was the biggest mistake in modern day Liverpool transfer history ( that is IMHO no flames from Dalglish fanatics please). The team needs investment and the owners are the ones who should receive all the pressure not the manager. We have been fooled about the stadium for years and this is going on...

got the balls to drop Caroll who was the biggest mistake in modern day Liverpool transfer history ( that is IMHO no flames from Dalglish fanatics please).

I'd mention Comolli before Kenny, he was the DOF at the time and in charge of spending the money along with the Harley driving knobhead.

And you're wrong about the biggest mistake in modern day Liverpool transfer history, that still belongs to Houllier not buying Anelka and going for El Hadj gobs***e instead!

Sorry BR fails to impress me.

We are Liverpool.

Didnt relaise until this morning reading BBC Sport that we did aspproach De Boer at Ajax last season .... but he refused.

I dont hate the man i am sure he is a good fella , but do i like him as a liverpool manager not one jot ,i just dont think he cuts it ,and i have thought it for a while ,would like nothing more than have to eat my words and admit i am wrong but sadly for me and lfc i dont think i am.

And you're wrong about the biggest mistake in modern day Liverpool transfer history, that still belongs to Houllier not buying Anelka and going for El Hadj gobs***e instead!

Thought that at the time HR could never ever work that one out ,serious error of judgement that one.

Sorry BR fails to impress me.

We are Liverpool.

Didnt relaise until this morning reading BBC Sport that we did aspproach De Boer at Ajax last season .... but he refused.

Thought he wasn't ready, really liked the De Boers as players and would have been quite interested to see how well he would have done to be honest. Thing of the past though and Brendan has my support until the end of next season when I feel it will be obvious to all if he's the right man or not.

Since Dec 30th (the start of the 2nd half of the season) we have 8W, 6D, 3L with 2 winnable games yet to play. 

Our current points haul is 30 from 17 games, or 1.765/game.  If you extrapolate that total, we would finish a full season with 67 points, which would not have been good enough for the top 4 this season, but would have been close. 

If we are to win our two remaining games (which we should) against Fulham and QPR, then our points total will be 36 from 19 or, or 1.895/game.  Extrapolated, that is 72 points over the course of a season.  In most years, that would be enough to secure a spot in the top 4.  This year, it may not be enough.  If Spurs draw against Chelsea and then win their remaining 2 games, they will finish with 72 points yet would likely finish 5th.  However, the law of averages seems to suggest that 72 points would usually be enough to get you into the CL for the following season. 

Going by that math, since the arrival of Sturridge and Coutinho, we have been playing well enough to be right there with Arsenal, Chelsea, and Tottenham in the race for 4th for next season.  We obviously need to continue to improve, but I think that the objective view is that we are better now than we were last year and hopefully we can keep moving in the right direction.  I agree with Tommo that if we can improve upon Carra, Downing, and Enrique Henderson then we will be able to really put a challenge together for next season.  Hypothetically speaking, if we were to get one of Dede/Garay for CB, Farfan/Gaitan/Ben Arfa for RM, and Strootman/Moutinho/Inler/Capoue at CM and I think we would would have the quality and depth to make a real push next season. 

A manager cannot be much better than the players he is working with.  If you put whiskey nose or Mourinho in charge of QPR this season they would still be sh*te!!

Our performances/results have been improving over the course of Brendan's time in charge, which is reason enough for me to give him my backing. 

As always, much will depend on our summer business.  Hopefully we have a summer transfer window that we look back on years from now as an incredible success

Doesn't surprise me.  He is pro Rafa( as some posters are here) and now an anti BR. Give Brendan a chance FFS!

Regardless of what people think BR is here to stay. I truly believe that he will take us to the top where we belong.

IBWT.

Since Dec 30th (the start of the 2nd half of the season) we have 8W, 6D, 3L with 2 winnable games yet to play. 

Our current points haul is 30 from 17 games, or 1.765/game.  If you extrapolate that total, we would finish a full season with 67 points, which would not have been good enough for the top 4 this season, but would have been close. 

If we are to win our two remaining games (which we should) against Fulham and QPR, then our points total will be 36 from 19 or, or 1.895/game.  Extrapolated, that is 72 points over the course of a season.  In most years, that would be enough to secure a spot in the top 4.  This year, it may not be enough.  If Spurs draw against Chelsea and then win their remaining 2 games, they will finish with 72 points yet would likely finish 5th.  However, the law of averages seems to suggest that 72 points would usually be enough to get you into the CL for the following season. 

Going by that math, since the arrival of Sturridge and Coutinho, we have been playing well enough to be right there with Arsenal, Chelsea, and Tottenham in the race for 4th for next season.  We obviously need to continue to improve, but I think that the objective view is that we are better now than we were last year and hopefully we can keep moving in the right direction.  I agree with Tommo that if we can improve upon Carra, Downing, and Enrique Henderson then we will be able to really put a challenge together for next season.  Hypothetically speaking, if we were to get one of Dede/Garay for CB, Farfan/Gaitan/Ben Arfa for RM, and Strootman/Moutinho/Inler/Capoue at CM and I think we would would have the quality and depth to make a real push next season. 

A manager cannot be much better than the players he is working with.  If you put whiskey nose or Mourinho in charge of QPR this season they would still be sh*te!!

Our performances/results have been improving over the course of Brendan's time in charge, which is reason enough for me to give him my backing. 

As always, much will depend on our summer business.  Hopefully we have a summer transfer window that we look back on years from now as an incredible success

All very good points Harry and nice to see the effort being made. Don't forget though we've had nothing but the league to concentrate on for most of the 2nd half of the season. That wont be the case for the beginning of next year.

I do follow your logic though and understand the point you're making.

 ( that is IMHO no flames from Dalglish fanatics please).

Silly me I thought all genuine Liverpool supporters where King Kenny fanatics.

Doesn't surprise me.  He is pro Rafa( as some posters are here) and now an anti BR. Give Brendan a chance FFS!

Regardless of what people think BR is here to stay. I truly believe that he will take us to the top where we belong.

IBWT.

Did you even read the article?

Doesn't surprise me.  He is pro Rafa( as some posters are here) and now an anti BR. Give Brendan a chance FFS!

Regardless of what people think BR is here to stay. I truly believe that he will take us to the top where we belong.

IBWT.

How did you get there mate?

Seems like you commented, out of context, on the title of the article alone.

I understand the skepticism of a lot of people regarding Rodgers - not everything he does is to my taste either - but I trust he can take us forward. The only thing that buggers me in this whole debate is how for some one year and a half wasn't enough to judge a manager, but now one season is enough. I understand we all have biases, me included, but I believe consistency is key for a reasonable debate. If more of us keep that in mind, the discussion will be enriched.

1 season isn't enough. Rodgers deserve more time and hopefully he'll get it, though I definitely agree that next season is a big season for him. However, there's no need to panic or make rushed decisions - it feels like we've been rushing key verdicts for a while now. 1, 2, 3 seasons might seem a lot of time in the day-by-day life of the club, but in context it's not that much, if it pay dividends in the future.

I started a thread a while ago comparing our current situation to some MLB concepts, and I believe we're rebuilding. Or as Tomkins say, in a period of transition. Will it work out? Tough to say - depending on how you look at the evidence of this season, there are reasons for optimism or pessimism - but I guess we should give a long-term project a try, just for a change. We desperately need some stability.

 I hate Rodgers for using the word philosophy

Id say about 80% of Reds are willing to give BR another season. If FSG back him properly this summer, there will be no excuse for not improving.
All our managers have had their share of poor signings, hopefully Brendan will learn from his, there are more Coutinho's out there waiting for the call from a club like Liverpool!

(For the next season at least) IBWT!

I hate Rodgers for using the word philosophy

Ok then! 

Id say about 80% of Reds are willing to give BR another season. If FSG back him properly this summer, there will be no excuse for not improving.
All our managers have had their share of poor signings, hopefully Brendan will learn from his, there are more Coutinho's out there waiting for the call from a club like Liverpool!

(For the next season at least) IBWT!

It is higher than 80%. IMO 99.9% off supporters are willing to give BR another year.

 How many fans believe he is up to the job is a different question. Personally, I would expect about 75% believe he is good enough to manage Liverpool. So 25 % or 1 in 4 supporters don't believe in him.

Ok then! 

It is a pet hate of mine. The only philosophy in football is to score more than the opposition.

 It is tactics, not philosophy

It is a pet hate of mine. The only philosophy in football is to score more than the opposition.

 It is tactics, not philosophy

How's your managerial career going?

Tactics change, managers have different tactics. Therefore each have their own PHILOSOPHY based on tactics and ideas about how to win. It aint rocket surgery, Eddie.

The last paragraph summed up my feelings. Think we'll settle down over summer, bring in a few quality signings, and - unless FSG bring Woy back - we should feel okay going into next season with BR in charge again.

Let me start by saying I am PRO-RAFA or PRO-BENITEZ, and i'm also PRO-KK. And I bet you all know why. They have both won titles - Key titles especially when you least expect it. I was willing to give Houllier a chance until i concluded he had taken us as far as he could go - but again a great Liverpool manager who also won titles for the club. I'm also a Paul Tomkins fan and also look forward to his articles. i believe even though he has an angle and I bet we all have angles in trying to pass home a point, he tries to a fault to be as objective as possible which is good.

Now to the crux of the matter, Do i hate Brendan? Has he done enough? Has he been given enough to deliver results? Is he the right person to take LFC forward? Would we have series of folklores to sing about great LFC players while he is at the helm of affairs? Will he win tropies? Can he win a League title for LFC? These for me are the key questions that deserves to be answered objectively when I analyse the employment/ performance of a manager.

Do I Hate Brendan?
No, i don't, and I have given him the support that he needs as a fan during the course of the season.

Has he done enough?
In my opinion I believe the team could have done better than what we did if we had believed in ourselves at the beginning of the season instead of playing down expectations. Its a sign of weakness in my opinion, one of if it turns out that way, then I would have said so, and if it turned out better I would be a saviour.

Has he been given enough to deliver results?
I guess this is still open to the jury. With the artrition rate, i would argue that we are just a wee bit short of having the quality to be in the top 4. Though i feel not having a 2nd striker, as i dont rate Borini - hope he proves me wrong, was a bit overrated judging by reaction on this website and the song the media chose to play was a big risk as all we needed to be screwed was a Suarez injury or as the FA in its usual fashion does a lengthy ban, or having him missing for key games. But i knew with Luis being available for every game there was no cause for concern. But again i repeat it was a big risk to take considering all the other big teams apart from Spurs had more than 2 top strikers. Chelsea had Sturridge and later replaced him with Ba. In conclusion this Liverpool team is better quality wise than Everton ( Though they are a much more settled side compared to how we started our season) and so we should be finishing ahead of them on the league table. So for the results he presented, if i were to assess his score card I would say he just about scaled through, but there is massive room for improvement and the signs are there to see.

 Is he the right person to take LFC forward?
Again this is also open to the Jury. For me progress is result better than the last, but also at the right cost. My priority is to win the league and also win all competitions we are playing in. I dont buy that league Cup, FA Cup or Europa Leagues are not important. i believe in a club like Liverpool the mindset is to take every competition seriously and always aspire to win every one of them. this idea of our squad being too small to compete on Thursday and weekend i dont buy it. You are either a big club or you are  a small/ mediocre club. Its your choice but i know where i stand and what i believe. So yes I believe BR would take LFC forward, I just dont believe he will get us to the promise land. I believe there would be progress, lots of progress, there would be improvements but it might not just get us there, I see a lot of near misses in the future, i can already see the trend. How many people think Hector Cuper is a great manager? How many people sing his praises?? Though I loved the man and still rate him as one of the best, he would never make the grade as a great because he was a nearly man. And thats the way I see this LFC team, BR will take us forward but I hope we will be brave enough to say this is how far we think you can take us to allow us move to the next level as a team/ clubside.

Would we have series of folklores to sing about great LFC players while he is at the helm of affairs?
I am already singing one barring Suarez leaving anytime soon, if he stays he's going to be a great. See a few upcoming lads whom i believe we would sing great songs for, the thing is i don't think the Glory days of Anfield road would just be part of the songs, I see a few individual talents punching above their weights. though the context of this question is more towards the players BR develops, makes better or signs. For me he started on the wrong foot, buying players he has worked with before without really assessing where he is coming to and the players he needs. He was looking for the insurance player which on its own isnt bad, where it becomes a problem is when that signing backfires, cos most managers stick with players they have bought whether their performances are up to scratch or not, but as we moved along I have seen signs that he can think outside the box as per signing cos i didnt Coutinho coming, but sturridge, Allen & Borini are all mid table players he has worked with before. There is no point transfering the whole of the Swansea team to Liverpool and expect them to challenge for the top 4. I praised his courage though on his stance to give some youth players a chance (Raheem whom I am very fond of and have great expectations, Shelvey, Suso, Wisdom). So yes i'm neither here nor there on this bit but again I hope for his sake he gets his signings right this summer.

Will he win tropies? Can he win a League title for LFC?
At first I separated these 2 questions, but after typing for a while and getting to the end of my point/ analysis I decided to combine them. It should even go with the expectation question.

I believe he has the ability to win titles - BR, he strikes me as someone who would love to win, but I hope I'm wrong, he is still an Hector Cuper in my books, a good manager but not a great one. He is definitely above average, maybe during the course of his career I would be proven wrong, but i believe at this time in his LFC career he is going to be a nearly man. Probably a few years under his belt before joining LFC I might have a different opinion.

I support a clubside that wins, not a clubside that aspire to come 4th. Every season my expectation of and from the team is minimum the League title. Please dont talk to me about money, players or owners. They are all excuses. We have seen cases where the richesest dont win, a modest club with good project can still win trophies, examples abound, ther was Montepellier in France, Dortmond in Germany, AZ in Holland, Though rare cases but they do happen. It depends on the structure, the strategy and the know how of the men in charge.

So for me based on my expectation which is making an effort to winning the title every season, I dont believe a coach who plays down expectation of coming 4th can get me to my promise land no matter the money, player or time at his disposal. I was being careful not to give a definite verdict but I just dont believe BR would win a league title for LFC but i think he would get us as far as he possibly can which would be close (Top 4 maybe for a few seasons).

I wouldnt be sad if he leaves and I wouldnt also wish him to leave until he has been given a fair chance and a fair crack at doing his job. I will just sit and wait patiently and also hope he proves me wrong on some of my points/ opinions. But I believe there would be glimpses of brilliance and be it good or bad, he and the team would always have my support unless i feel they are not giving their best.

sorry for the long post and I hope it makes good reading

Having watched the team this year I think we need to be better defensively and offensively. I like a possession based game but it can have limitations if your playing staff aren't really cut out for it. Did Carragher make a difference when he got the nod. If so then at least BR is adapting. Did Sturridge make a difference. These are important for me because it shows BR has a an idea of how to improve the team when given a chance. It seems fans, players etc trust managers who have a plan and able to change is the plan isn't working. Also he looks a bit like Shanks. Fro the record I am a Rafa man, but if and when that man comes back I would love it to be when we are ready for 'La Decima'.

I like Paul Tomkins points of view. When we talk about improving next season, it will have to be massive and decisive. We are competing and will be trying to close the gap with the usual CL contenders, Arsenal & Spurs. Chelsea & City will most likely be challenging for the title again against the other one. We are currently having a huge 12 point gap between us and Arsenal who are in 4th. Three years out of being Europe's elite is enough  . Time to awaken.

interesting read.

to be fair to BR, the prem league now is a way different animal than when the 'top eight' started.  back in the day, you had a small group of clubs dominating (think prem league and the top 4)... now, the prem league is much more congested... with only man utd running away from the pack... well i guess you can kind of group man city as well... however, the league has never been as close as this and I for one enjoy it.  although frustrating sometimes.

but back to the topic at hand, the biggest issues i see are that BR is slightly handicapped. 

1) you can improve your squad sure, but how much has it improved or 'not improved' against the other 19 teams because those teams are making changes as well.. and some of them have vastly larger sums of money to make changes faster

2) BR really only had one transfer window (winter) to bring in players that can play his style.

3) we dont have the unlimited pockets of cash anymore... think of pep when he takes over bayern this summer...  He is going to have hundreds of millions to splash.  BR
will be lucky to get 40mil.  we'll have to sell more players to fund newcomers

4) and lastly, BR's mandate from Henry is to develop players and grow from within.  What this means is that until the crop of U19s..U21s etc are ready, we really wont be able to see what BR has brought in for us.  If you want instant results (instant is within a season, you are really buying talent and slotting them in and not home growing. 


I personally think BR is growing and learning as well and he is doing a remarkable job.  Sure not every day I like the guy and some of his subs were totally questionable, but over the year, he is making better decisions and starting with the right XI... for the most part.   I think if he gets a proper chance and support, he might be around for quite some time... but as usual, we shall see

Why do people have no patience? He needs the time to build his own team, and that's going to take a while. Let him see the full terms of his contract. Again, Alex Ferguson didn't seem to cut the mustard for four years so why should we not give Rodgers the time? If anything, the fans are as bad as chairmen in football who want results instantly.

Liverpool FC were in F***ing dire straights when he arrived, and he needed to give a sense of stability. Perhaps we aren't higher in the league than last year, but when you drastically change the structure and tactics of a club, then results aren't going to go our way instantly and its going to take time to embed itself. Let's actually be thankful we aren't lower in the league - I seriously thought 7-10th was a possibility for this season, and we're seventh because the quality is only good enough for seventh. For example, the likes of Downing are only good enough for a team of seventh, not for any higher. He's far too inconsistent, despite improving from last year.

Whatever way you look at it, at least there's a plan in place and there is hopeful signs from the play this year, unlike last year.

Liverpool FC were in F***ing dire straights when he arrived

Whatever way you look at it, at least there's a plan in place and there is hopeful signs from the play this year, unlike last year.

We won a trophy and playing pretty good football like this season.

You must be getting mixed up with when Hodgson was in charge!

Ynwa Brendan Rodgers . We're going in the right direction keep the faith ffs

Generally fed up of these w*nk articles and threads. As Diego said we were able to cut Kenny a lot of slack after last season having been with us for a year and a half yet different man = different attitudes.

can someone help me please .Last year we won a trophy and made another final qualified for Europa league.this season no silverware no European football but we have made progress???

can someone help me please .Last year we won a trophy and made another final qualified for Europa league.this season no silverware no European football but we have made progress???

Can't argue mate - I believe and want BR to get more time but phrases like "dire straits" to describe what he inherited as one poster did devalue the argument.

My frustration with BR has been documented but he has my total support but not my total belief.

can someone help me please .Last year we won a trophy and made another final qualified for Europa league.this season no silverware no European football but we have made progress???

No doubt last season was a better season. The two cup runs were an absolute joy particularly the wins over Man Utd and Everton in the FA Cup. But I can honestly say our league form really ground to a halt playing some pretty poor football. This season, on the face of it, there hasn't been much progress but I persist we've become a better team over the course of the season after a nightmare start where we were turned over too easily. It's absolutely VITAL that the progress made from January onwards is taken into the summer and ready to be continued from August onwards. There's a lot of pressure on Brendan to get it right. His first MAJOR test as a manager will come in that first half of next season. He's been given something of a bye for this season by many and I think that's only fair considering the fact that, in reality, he entered a team that hadn't come on much further than when Rafa left in 2010. We've been stuck in the same hole for the last 3 years with 4 different managers (if you want to count Rafa's last season). The sacking of Hodgson was correct. The sacking of Kenny was wrong however. He deserved another year at least to rectify issues in that team.

But it wasn't to be and we got a new manager in Brendan a guy who I was so impressed by the previous year in bringing in a progressive brand of football having just emerged from the Championship, a division that has so often produced god awful anti footballing sides in the form of Steve Bruce, Tony Pulis or Sam Allardyce's shower of crap. He's a manager appointed on hope for fulfilling his potential which is dangerous but is worth a shot especially when you see how it served the likes of Dortmund when they appointed that guy from Mainz who turned out to be Jürgen Klopp. Like Klopp it can pay off spectacularly, other times it doesn't. Stability and longevity is the key I really believe. We've seen flashes here and there of a brilliant Liverpool under Rodgers and then moments of the direness we've been subjected to since Rafa's last season but the latter always dictates irrational minds I find.

Can't argue mate - I believe and want BR to get more time but phrases like "dire straits" to describe what he inherited as one poster did devalue the argument.

My frustration with BR has been documented but he has my total support but not my total belief.

i think your quote here kinda sums up my long post. Decided to make it a lengthy one due to people who quote you outta context.

No doubt he is a good manager, will probably be a great one, just feel he wouldnt achieve that potential of greatness here in LFC at this present time. But i believe he will bring the stability we need, just cant see that something extra that says League title or cup success, at least not yet.

This is pretty much how I feel about Rodgers, however one thing I don't understand is how Tomkins says he will feel pretty indifferent if someone of similar level replaces Brendan. Surely that would lead to another season that could be written off as transitional, no?

For me, I feel that remaining where we were in the table was the minimum expected this season, but it's not like I thought that would be easy. I think many managers would come into our team and drop a few places with a transitional season, others may bring us up a few.

Now Brendan has got this season out of the way and i find it hard to see our squad doing anything other than improving before we start next season, I'm pretty enthusiastic about next season. But as tomkins says, the coming season is when we must make a real challenge for the top 4. No excuses, Brendan has to do something to prove he's the right man to take us forward.

And god I hope he does, not just because that's what we all obviously want, but because I don't think I can face another change of manager and everything that goes with it.

Can't argue mate - I believe and want BR to get more time but phrases like "dire straits" to describe what he inherited as one poster did devalue the argument.

My frustration with BR has been documented but he has my total support but not my total belief.

Come off it, we were thinking comfortable top four at the beginning of last year. Who would have believed that we would have finished 8th in the league that year in August 2011? Dire straights indeed - we bought terribly that summer and that was the major downfall.

Come off it, we were thinking comfortable top four at the beginning of last year. Who would have believed that we would have finished 8th in the league that year in August 2011? Dire straights indeed - we bought terribly that summer and that was the major downfall.

And we won one trophy,  just missed another and will finish one place better off. Don't be so ridiculous.

One thing that pisses me off when discussing Brendan is his "lack of experience". Let's review this for a second - it's true he is not experienced at the very top level in English football, nevertheless his managerial erformance at Swansea was outstanding. He made the team out-"football" nearly every opther team, including those with huge budgets - even Arsenal. That is a huge achievement.

And looking back at our managers, Kenny (1st time) had no managerial experience at the top level in the British game (unlikel the 2nd stint), neither did Ged or Rafa. In fact - our most "experienced" appointments were arguably Souness and Hodgson.

Experience helps but isn't the crucial factor in detrmining success. Instead your footballing philosophy and management style are much more likely to determine whether you will win things. It's more important that your philosophy suits the environment which you are playing than anything else. If Pep Guardiola tried his tiki Taka in teh 70s he would have got booted off the park.

Rodger's implementation of possession-based high pressing football is likely to bear fruit - probably it won't be as successful as the Bayern / Rafa model in this league but time will tell.

One thing that pisses me off when discussing Brendan is his "lack of experience". Let's review this for a second - it's true he is not experienced at the very top level in English football, nevertheless his managerial erformance at Swansea was outstanding. He made the team out-"football" nearly every opther team, including those with huge budgets - even Arsenal. That is a huge achievement.

And looking back at our managers, Kenny (1st time) had no managerial experience at the top level in the British game (unlikel the 2nd stint), neither did Ged or Rafa. In fact - our most "experienced" appointments were arguably Souness and Hodgson.

Experience helps but isn't the crucial factor in detrmining success. Instead your footballing philosophy and management style are much more likely to determine whether you will win things. It's more important that your philosophy suits the environment which you are playing than anything else. If Pep Guardiola tried his tiki Taka in teh 70s he would have got booted off the park.

Rodger's implementation of possession-based high pressing football is likely to bear fruit - probably it won't be as successful as the Bayern / Rafa model in this league but time will tell.

Good one that.

And we won one trophy,  just missed another and will finish one place better off. Don't be so ridiculous.

and Kenny's awful signings have played a lot of games this season.

and Kenny's awful signings have played a lot of games this season.

Suarez obviously, Enrique is doing good also, incorporating Downing and Handerson in the team is more like working with what is available than Rodger's first choice of players, it is him who should receive credit for that. They were never top signings.

Generally fed up of these w*nk articles and threads. As Diego said we were able to cut Kenny a lot of slack after last season having been with us for a year and a half yet different man = different attitudes.

Unless I'm missing something this "w*nk article" actually does cut Brendan a lot of slack as do the overwhelming majority of posters in these "w*nk threads". Personally I'm generally fed up with folk pretending that Brendan hasn't been cut any slack, by either fans or owners, when it's patently not true.

I mean it's not as if too many are calling for his head or the owners are going to sack him for a poor league showing; is it?... Yeah it's a case of "different man = different attitudes" alright.

That said and to be fair I can see where (and Diego) are coming from: I went through the same thing, this time, last year. I just knew that some mealy-mouthed, fuckers, didn't really mean it when they said they didn't want Kenny gone. 

Whilst it may be too long for some to read and digest I believe that the Tomkins article, all things considered, is a very fair, reasonable and even-handed read.

Brendan has been cut a lot of slack this season.

If memory serves me right we had a 'Is Roy The Right Man' thread in around August of his time here.

Not trying to compare Brendan with Roy but to say he hasn't been cut any slack is plain wrong.

 The owners installed Brendan insisting he was the man in their estimation to succeed and better his predecessor, for the club's sake I would suggest the manager is being given the grace of time by the supporters; he is not making a complete pig's arse of the job and to an extent the charity with the time scale would apply to the owners if only for the most neccessary and obvious reasons.
It makes perfect sense therefore that while those factors prevail the owners are going to give Brendan as much leeway as he wants, an additional advantage as far as FSG are concerned is he is perceived to be making a measured improvement, albeit using microscopic guaging equipment over the long term - the owners once again are fully prepared to follow these tactics to the letter and take as much time as they are allowed. 

The results might not have improved too much (though they have been a bit better in the league at least), but I think we're in a better place now than we were last season despite winning a trophy and having similar results.

I feel more a bit more confident in this side than last year's. Basically, though we've had short term stagnation, I think in the long-term we're better off now. Probably the biggest influence on that has been Coutinho. We've been crying out for a playmaker for years, and now we finally have one -- and genuinely talented one at that.

But, we're still lacking a quality winger, a more dynamic physical presence in midfield, and a dominate CB. Those are the three main areas we need to focus on in the summer to improve.

The results might not have improved too much (though they have been a bit better in the league at least), but I think we're in a better place now than we were last season despite winning a trophy and having similar results.

I feel more a bit more confident in this side than last year's. Basically, though we've had short term stagnation, I think in the long-term we're better off now. Probably the biggest influence on that has been Coutinho. We've been crying out for a playmaker for years, and now we finally have one -- and genuinely talented one at that.

But, we're still lacking a quality winger, a more dynamic physical presence in midfield, and a dominate CB. Those are the three main areas we need to focus on in the summer to improve.

But don't you think if Kenny was allowed to build on his first season we may have seen similar results or even better especially in the league as new players would have bedded in nicely?.

Still think it was way too premature to sack Kenny and not give him the opportunity to improve our league campaign which he would of if he were allowed to bring in his targets.

But don't you think if Kenny was allowed to build on his first season we may have seen similar results or even better especially in the league as new players would have bedded in nicely?.

Still think it was way too premature to sack Kenny and not give him the opportunity to improve our league campaign which he would of if he were allowed to bring in his targets.

I agree it was too premature to sack Kenny. Said so numerous times this year and last.

It's hard to say. I mean, Diame would have been a brilliant addition to the team despite my concerns over his heart condition. That said, Kenny (and Comolli) seemed to want to build around Carroll and Suarez as a partnership, whereas Brendan seems to want to build around just Suarez.

but I think we're in a better place now than we were last season despite winning a trophy and having similar results.

It's all pretty subjective really; isn't it?

What you "feel" or "think", as you've rightly pointed out (to be fair to you), isn't really backed up by the facts. Maybe you just need to feel we are in a better place. Maybe we are "better off" in the long-term but you don't know that; just as you don't know what the long-term would have held should FSG not have changed managers. That's the trouble with subjective arguments they are just that.

Maybe, in the meantime it's best stick to what can be measured and who knows, this time, next season, we will all be happy that we have really, measurably and undeniably improved on this one. Here's hoping. 

We won a trophy and playing pretty good football like this season.

You must be getting mixed up with when Hodgson was in charge!

I'll go with the trophy and occasionally good football, but also it was some of the worst football I've seen at Anfield for a long time.  West Brom and Wigan being prime examples and at times versus Cardiff in the final, saying we were sh*t could be seen as being kind.  Their were some good signs, but their was a lot of sh*t as well, though KK earned, but wasn't given, the chance to rectify it.

To be fair we have played some good football this season when teams have let us , when we have had to roll up our sleeves and scrap for a win we have been absolutely dire, just as bad or worse that any game you care to mention about last season, and yet because its BR,s first season its all about cutting the man some slack , well effectively it was KK first proper season back ,got us in europe and two cup finals and yet was made to walk the plank ,just don,t figure for me  ,

I honestly believe Brendan has got quite lucky this season alll things considered ,he has had a season where our striker has scored 30 goals and papered over a multitude of errors ,where we would be in the league without them goals is anyone,s guess, had KK got any sort of luck last season woodwork and all then things would have been very much different, no improvement this year at all, and yet we are at the cutting slack time of the season, agenda,s have been at work and we have been the mugs falling for it.     

It's all pretty subjective really; isn't it?

What you "feel" or "think", as you've rightly pointed out (to be fair to you), isn't really backed up by the facts. Maybe you just need to feel we are in a better place. Maybe we are "better off" in the long-term but you don't know that; just as you don't know what the long-term would have held should FSG not have changed managers. That's the trouble with subjective arguments they are just that.

Maybe, in the meantime it's best stick to what can be measured and who knows, this time, next season, we will all be happy that we have really, measurably and undeniably improved on this one. Here's hoping. 

That's true. And if we look at things that have happened, one thing is better, another thing is worse, one thing is better, another worse, and so on.

But like I said, Coutinho is probably influencing my opinion a bit more than it should hah

I look forward to see in which direction the side go, under Brendan, who I find a likeable guy on the whole. I think a challenge for a top four spot being a major priority.

And if we look at things that have happened, one thing is better, another thing is worse, one thing is better, another worse, and so on.

But like I said, Coutinho is probably influencing my opinion a bit more than it should hah

I think that's the whole point of the article and where I am in recent times; the 'good' and 'bad' certainly take turns in winning the battle for hearts n minds.

As for Coutinho - I hear you loud and clear... I felt much the same about Suarez - I can forgive the Carroll faux pas simply because I'd suffer three Carrolls for every one Suarez. The trick is to build on these two and quick.

Players like these can't and won't wait about on a long-term plan to (maybe) come to fruition. Teams, with more to offer, will test their and our resolve; the longer we go without showing intent the faster we'll lose them. I was never an "I want it all now" fan - still ain't - but "now" has been three seasons long.

FSG have yet another chance to show ambition to the fans and players; let's take it eh?

Great article by Tomkins. Agree wholeheartedly with it.

I think next season will make or break BR. He needs to buy wisely and really push the team. What he specifically has to achieve is not up to me but we have to show more consistency, improve defensively and not be trying to finish higher than Everton with 3 games to go in the season to salvage any sort if credibility.

I like BR the man. I hope it works out for all parties. But as I kept saying earlier once he moves away from his philosophy then I will not support him and towards the second part of the season we didn't play like his Swansea team. Passing it sideways around the back and then hoofing it long is not tiki taka. It's sh*t and a cop out.